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	<title>Comments on: Little Ricky does his man-on-dog bark in op-ed on same-sex marriage</title>
	<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/23/little-ricky-does-his-man-on-dog-bark-in-op-ed-on-same-sex-marriage/</link>
	<description>Just another WordPress weblog</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 18:18:22 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=1.5.1-alpha</generator>

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		<title>by: Dana</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/23/little-ricky-does-his-man-on-dog-bark-in-op-ed-on-same-sex-marriage/#comment-518661</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 May 2008 07:43:39 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/23/little-ricky-does-his-man-on-dog-bark-in-op-ed-on-same-sex-marriage/#comment-518661</guid>
					<description>Bananaphone asked:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Why does every article he writes start with the phrase, “The Elephant in the Room”?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Because that's the title of his bi-weekly column in &lt;i&gt;The Philadelphia Inquirer.&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Bananaphone asked:</p>
	<blockquote><p>Why does every article he writes start with the phrase, “The Elephant in the Room”?</p></blockquote>
	<p>Because that&#8217;s the title of his bi-weekly column in <i>The Philadelphia Inquirer.</i>
</p>
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		<title>by: Dan S., burrowing owl</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/23/little-ricky-does-his-man-on-dog-bark-in-op-ed-on-same-sex-marriage/#comment-518221</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 21:22:54 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/23/little-ricky-does-his-man-on-dog-bark-in-op-ed-on-same-sex-marriage/#comment-518221</guid>
					<description>&quot;&lt;i&gt;Of course churches are going to get sued for hate speech. In a country where someone sues a dry-cleaner for losing their pants and only offering to buy them a new pair, somebody, either queer or straight, is going to sue a preacher somewhere for saying something they don’t like about marriage. Suit won’t succeed, but it’s in the very nature of monkeys on a typewriter that it will be filed.&lt;/i&gt;&quot;

And what's amusing is that:

1) The ACLU would come down on the &lt;i&gt;person suing&lt;/i&gt; like a ton of 1st Amendment bricks, and
2) Within a week, and into the foreseeable future, rightwing radio/ email spam/ etc. would be ranting about how the ACLU tried to sue churches for hate speech.  (See, ie, &lt;a href=&quot;http://jajc.blogspot.com/2006/08/aclu-defends-religious-liberties.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;)

---

Santorum's column is one of the main reasons I don't buy the Inquirer anymore.  I don't have a problem with them running columns by conservatives; it's that they somehow felt compelled to provide a soapbox for that deeply unpleasant man after he had been roundly rejected not just by Philly voters (that's a given - he only got around 16% of the Philly vote in '06) but by the state as a whiole, with the biggest margin of defeat for an incumbent Senator in over 25 years.  Let him drag his own grungy little box around to stand on while he incomprehensively rants at the people walking by.

-------
Mr. Frothy Mix: &quot; . . . &lt;i&gt;and churches, and church-related organizations will lose government contracts and even their tax-exempt status.&lt;/i&gt;&quot;

MikeEss: &quot;&lt;i&gt; Look. If Bob Jones had believed that interracial dating was wrong, but implemented no policy against it, there would have been no legal problem.&lt;/i&gt;&quot;

Interestingly, it's been argued (by, for example,&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5502785&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Randall Balmer&lt;/a&gt;) that the real issue that set off the religious right's mass incursion into politics wasn't abortion or school prayer or any of that - it was, in fact,  the IRS' attempt to take away Bob Jones' U. tax-exempt status due to blatant racial discrimination.  I suspect for the leaders of the Christianist movement, that's what it's all about, and what it has been all about: the right not just to be bigoted asses in the name of religion - which, as noted, is largely protected by the same Constitution they hate so much - but to get to openly discriminate against their fellow citizens in non-religious activities while receiving special gov't privileges and happily suckling at the gov't teat.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;<i>Of course churches are going to get sued for hate speech. In a country where someone sues a dry-cleaner for losing their pants and only offering to buy them a new pair, somebody, either queer or straight, is going to sue a preacher somewhere for saying something they don’t like about marriage. Suit won’t succeed, but it’s in the very nature of monkeys on a typewriter that it will be filed.</i>&#8221;</p>
	<p>And what&#8217;s amusing is that:</p>
	<p>1) The ACLU would come down on the <i>person suing</i> like a ton of 1st Amendment bricks, and<br />
2) Within a week, and into the foreseeable future, rightwing radio/ email spam/ etc. would be ranting about how the ACLU tried to sue churches for hate speech.  (See, ie, <a href="http://jajc.blogspot.com/2006/08/aclu-defends-religious-liberties.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>)</p>
	<p>&#8212;</p>
	<p>Santorum&#8217;s column is one of the main reasons I don&#8217;t buy the Inquirer anymore.  I don&#8217;t have a problem with them running columns by conservatives; it&#8217;s that they somehow felt compelled to provide a soapbox for that deeply unpleasant man after he had been roundly rejected not just by Philly voters (that&#8217;s a given - he only got around 16% of the Philly vote in &#8216;06) but by the state as a whiole, with the biggest margin of defeat for an incumbent Senator in over 25 years.  Let him drag his own grungy little box around to stand on while he incomprehensively rants at the people walking by.</p>
	<p>&#8212;&#8212;-<br />
Mr. Frothy Mix: &#8221; . . . <i>and churches, and church-related organizations will lose government contracts and even their tax-exempt status.</i>&#8221;</p>
	<p>MikeEss: &#8220;<i> Look. If Bob Jones had believed that interracial dating was wrong, but implemented no policy against it, there would have been no legal problem.</i>&#8221;</p>
	<p>Interestingly, it&#8217;s been argued (by, for example,<a href="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5502785" rel="nofollow">Randall Balmer</a>) that the real issue that set off the religious right&#8217;s mass incursion into politics wasn&#8217;t abortion or school prayer or any of that - it was, in fact,  the IRS&#8217; attempt to take away Bob Jones&#8217; U. tax-exempt status due to blatant racial discrimination.  I suspect for the leaders of the Christianist movement, that&#8217;s what it&#8217;s all about, and what it has been all about: the right not just to be bigoted asses in the name of religion - which, as noted, is largely protected by the same Constitution they hate so much - but to get to openly discriminate against their fellow citizens in non-religious activities while receiving special gov&#8217;t privileges and happily suckling at the gov&#8217;t teat.
</p>
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		<title>by: Dianne</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/23/little-ricky-does-his-man-on-dog-bark-in-op-ed-on-same-sex-marriage/#comment-518204</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 18:52:25 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/23/little-ricky-does-his-man-on-dog-bark-in-op-ed-on-same-sex-marriage/#comment-518204</guid>
					<description>Divorce rates appear to be stable or down in Massachusetts since the legalization of gay marriage and Mass consistently has one of the lowest divorce rates in the US. Hmm...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Divorce rates appear to be stable or down in Massachusetts since the legalization of gay marriage and Mass consistently has one of the lowest divorce rates in the US. Hmm&#8230;
</p>
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		<title>by: phylosopher</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/23/little-ricky-does-his-man-on-dog-bark-in-op-ed-on-same-sex-marriage/#comment-518198</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 18:28:52 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/23/little-ricky-does-his-man-on-dog-bark-in-op-ed-on-same-sex-marriage/#comment-518198</guid>
					<description>apologies for typos, previous post.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>apologies for typos, previous post.
</p>
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		<title>by: phylosopher</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/23/little-ricky-does-his-man-on-dog-bark-in-op-ed-on-same-sex-marriage/#comment-518197</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 18:27:41 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/23/little-ricky-does-his-man-on-dog-bark-in-op-ed-on-same-sex-marriage/#comment-518197</guid>
					<description>But exactly, Pete.  Marriage - with all that sacrament/holy stuff belongs in church.  We need to unlink that term.  As a het atheist, I wish civil unions would have ben a possibility. This way nobody get secnd class status (and laws can be amended to take care of the archaic language or it gets grandmothered in.)  

    </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>But exactly, Pete.  Marriage - with all that sacrament/holy stuff belongs in church.  We need to unlink that term.  As a het atheist, I wish civil unions would have ben a possibility. This way nobody get secnd class status (and laws can be amended to take care of the archaic language or it gets grandmothered in.)
</p>
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		<title>by: Phoenician in a time of Romans</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/23/little-ricky-does-his-man-on-dog-bark-in-op-ed-on-same-sex-marriage/#comment-518170</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 16:55:02 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/23/little-ricky-does-his-man-on-dog-bark-in-op-ed-on-same-sex-marriage/#comment-518170</guid>
					<description>I think all you need to do is dig out similar comments fulminated after _Loving vs Virginia_ and no-fault divorce.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think all you need to do is dig out similar comments fulminated after _Loving vs Virginia_ and no-fault divorce.
</p>
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		<title>by: Ms Kate</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/23/little-ricky-does-his-man-on-dog-bark-in-op-ed-on-same-sex-marriage/#comment-518160</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 16:19:19 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/23/little-ricky-does-his-man-on-dog-bark-in-op-ed-on-same-sex-marriage/#comment-518160</guid>
					<description>Ah yes, gloom and doom with out all the ... EVIDENCE!

Come on, MA legalized universal marriage rights in 2003 and implemented in 2004.  Last I checked, it hasn't had any of the impacts predicted.

What impact has it had?  Well, with 2/9 households on my street getting married as a result, it has increased community bonding, lawnmower sharing is up, snowblowing of driveways has increased, and jumpstarts are up 200%.

Horrible consequences, I tell ya. Horrible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ah yes, gloom and doom with out all the &#8230; EVIDENCE!</p>
	<p>Come on, MA legalized universal marriage rights in 2003 and implemented in 2004.  Last I checked, it hasn&#8217;t had any of the impacts predicted.</p>
	<p>What impact has it had?  Well, with 2/9 households on my street getting married as a result, it has increased community bonding, lawnmower sharing is up, snowblowing of driveways has increased, and jumpstarts are up 200%.</p>
	<p>Horrible consequences, I tell ya. Horrible.
</p>
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		<title>by: MikeEss</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/23/little-ricky-does-his-man-on-dog-bark-in-op-ed-on-same-sex-marriage/#comment-518144</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 15:34:38 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/23/little-ricky-does-his-man-on-dog-bark-in-op-ed-on-same-sex-marriage/#comment-518144</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;...once you have already granted that gay people should get all of the privileges and responsibilities of marriage, what reason is left to deny the word marriage, other than pure animus?&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

There seem to be many fundnuts for whom that is quite enough to justify denying it...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8220;&#8230;once you have already granted that gay people should get all of the privileges and responsibilities of marriage, what reason is left to deny the word marriage, other than pure animus?&#8221;</i></p>
	<p>There seem to be many fundnuts for whom that is quite enough to justify denying it&#8230;
</p>
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		<title>by: Peter H.</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/23/little-ricky-does-his-man-on-dog-bark-in-op-ed-on-same-sex-marriage/#comment-518137</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 14:53:17 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/23/little-ricky-does-his-man-on-dog-bark-in-op-ed-on-same-sex-marriage/#comment-518137</guid>
					<description>If you are talking about the proposal to reserve the word marriage for only those relationships blessed by churches and switch over all civil contracts to the words &quot;civil unions&quot; or such - no. Bad idea.

There is too much civil law directly linked to the word &quot;marriage&quot; - and even leaving gay people out of the mix, it sets up (at least rhetorical) second-class status to people who get hitched by the civil authorities. 

Sets up (or perpetuates) the &quot;real marriages only happen in church&quot; misunderstanding.

If anyone seriously proposed taking the word &quot;marriage&quot; away from everyone - call church weddings &quot;covenants&quot; and civil weddings &quot;civil unions&quot; and then let the word &quot;marrriage&quot; be fully applicable (and legally meaningless) to all of them, I might go along.

After all, a married man is a husband, a married woman is a wife, but they are both legally spouses.

And it isn't a solution to marriage equality for gay people anyway - lots of gay people get married in church now, they just don't get legal benefits. Most of these &quot;compromise proposals&quot; conveniently ignore that reality, and won't extend the word marriage to same-sex couples even if they do get married in church, which pretty much explodes the underlying agenda of their proposal.

All these gymnastics are really about one thing - getting to hold onto gay people not really being the same as or as good as &quot;real people.&quot; When they talk about how &quot;Americans feel about gay people&quot; as though the two categories are distinct, you see it as well. Well, sorry. gay people ARE Americans (those of us who are, that is) and we ARE citizens.

One aspect of the California court decision just keeps coming up - once you have already granted that gay people should get all of the privileges and responsibilities of marriage, what reason is left to deny the word marriage, other than pure animus?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>If you are talking about the proposal to reserve the word marriage for only those relationships blessed by churches and switch over all civil contracts to the words &#8220;civil unions&#8221; or such - no. Bad idea.</p>
	<p>There is too much civil law directly linked to the word &#8220;marriage&#8221; - and even leaving gay people out of the mix, it sets up (at least rhetorical) second-class status to people who get hitched by the civil authorities. </p>
	<p>Sets up (or perpetuates) the &#8220;real marriages only happen in church&#8221; misunderstanding.</p>
	<p>If anyone seriously proposed taking the word &#8220;marriage&#8221; away from everyone - call church weddings &#8220;covenants&#8221; and civil weddings &#8220;civil unions&#8221; and then let the word &#8220;marrriage&#8221; be fully applicable (and legally meaningless) to all of them, I might go along.</p>
	<p>After all, a married man is a husband, a married woman is a wife, but they are both legally spouses.</p>
	<p>And it isn&#8217;t a solution to marriage equality for gay people anyway - lots of gay people get married in church now, they just don&#8217;t get legal benefits. Most of these &#8220;compromise proposals&#8221; conveniently ignore that reality, and won&#8217;t extend the word marriage to same-sex couples even if they do get married in church, which pretty much explodes the underlying agenda of their proposal.</p>
	<p>All these gymnastics are really about one thing - getting to hold onto gay people not really being the same as or as good as &#8220;real people.&#8221; When they talk about how &#8220;Americans feel about gay people&#8221; as though the two categories are distinct, you see it as well. Well, sorry. gay people ARE Americans (those of us who are, that is) and we ARE citizens.</p>
	<p>One aspect of the California court decision just keeps coming up - once you have already granted that gay people should get all of the privileges and responsibilities of marriage, what reason is left to deny the word marriage, other than pure animus?
</p>
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		<title>by: phylosopher</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/23/little-ricky-does-his-man-on-dog-bark-in-op-ed-on-same-sex-marriage/#comment-518121</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 12:36:54 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/23/little-ricky-does-his-man-on-dog-bark-in-op-ed-on-same-sex-marriage/#comment-518121</guid>
					<description>Eric Zorn (chicago tribune - change of subject) had a pretty good thought, IMNSHO, yesterday on a solution to the &quot;gay marriage&quot; controversy.  Curious to know what readers here think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Eric Zorn (chicago tribune - change of subject) had a pretty good thought, IMNSHO, yesterday on a solution to the &#8220;gay marriage&#8221; controversy.  Curious to know what readers here think.
</p>
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