I seem to be blogging about Oregon a lot lately, but I try to choose the stories which have interest to everyone. (I missed the Obama rally, though, embarrassingly enough. Augustlet got to run the bases at the Triple-A baseball game, so I don’t regret the choice.)
But speaking of youth sports, holy shit.
Jaime Nared is nearly 6-1 and blessed with Michael Jordan-style skills. In games, the 12-year-old can more than hold her own against the boys — dropping three-pointers and sometimes scoring 30 points or more.
And there, according to her coach, lies the problem.
She’s so good, Michael Abraham said, she makes the boys look like scrubs. So she’s been told she can no longer play on boys teams at The Hoop, a private Beaverton basketball facility that runs a league in which Abraham’s teams compete.
Let me just say here that the sports-radio reaction - one of the most accurate bellwethers in the history of opinion - locally has been overwhelmingly supportive of young Ms. Nared. Usually you can find a few devil’s-advocate types who spout some sexist party-line nonsense, but in this case the Hoop doesn’t have a supporter as far as the eye can see.
“If I’d known about it, I wouldn’t have put any of my teams in the league. Besides, she’s been playing on this team since second grade, and she plays on our team when we travel around the region. There’s never been any problem in any event, not one word of complaint.”
Neal Franzer, The Hoop’s director of operations, said Thursday that parents were “adamant” that their complaints have nothing to do with Jaime’s skills.
“They said the problem was the boys were playing differently against her because she was a girl,” he said. “They’d been taught to not push a girl, so they weren’t fouling her hard, and the focus had shifted from playing basketball to noticing a girl was on the floor with them.”
Let me make sure I have this straight. This is basketball and the trouble is the boys don’t want to push her? I might almost understand this argument if she were a wrestler - as a former wrestler myself, I’d like to point out that there’s nowhere in a wrestling singlet for a 12-year-old boy to hide an embarrassing erection - understand the argument, but not support it. But basketball?
Basketball’s a c0ntact sport, fine. But a boy who’s too delicate to whack a girl hard on the arm the way he might a boy - a 6′1″ girl who could probably wipe the floor with him if she were so inclined - that’s not “good breeding”, that’s a dangerous lack of self-preservation skills.
Besides, it’s clear that the real problem is the boys, comparatively, suck at basketball and are sore losers.
“I think the boys on a specific team don’t like me,” she said. “It doesn’t seem fair.”
Jaime’s mom, Reiko Williams, said the issue boiled over after a particular game.
“She scored 30 points,” said Williams, who garnered national attention for her daughter’s predicament Thursday after taking the story to the media. “I remember one play. She stole the ball, dribbled up court and made a behind-the-back pass to a teammate. He missed the lay-in, and she grabbed the rebound and put it in. I think it was just too much for some of those parents.
“The next day, she came home and said they wouldn’t let her play with the boys anymore.”
I’ll tell you one thing. If a girl in a situation like this says “I think the boys on a specific team don’t like me” you can take that directly to the bank. And anyone who thinks there’s some room for ambiguity there has never been on the floor in a Jr. High sport, or in the stands, or at a PTA meeting, or at the park. And as the parent of a t-ball player who is routinely outhit by a girl who’s got three inches on him* I am even more familiar with the dynamic at play here (memo to other teams’ coaches: it’s FUCKING T-BALL.)
The Hoop’s protestations of “we’re just enforcing the policy” are the utterest hogwash. New management or not, the proof is incontrovertible:
He said the boys on his team enjoyed playing with Jaime — among a handful of girls to play on his boys teams over the years — because she helped them improve.
“If she were 4-feet-9 and no good, we wouldn’t be having this discussion,” Abraham said. “To appease a small minority of parents, in this day and age, is stupid. This is a decision that really targets her. She’s a well-adjusted kid who happens to be great.
* And on whom he’s got the good taste to have a little bit of a crush.
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Gender politics aside, she really should be on a high school team. According to the article, the only reason she isn’t is her parents want her to only be around kids her own age, which is not a mindset I support. Basketball is for basketball, and friends are for friends. If the two overlap, it’s a bonus, not a necessity. She shouldn’t have to put what’s likely to be a huge part of her life on hold for three years.
Obviously she shouldn’t have to put a huge part of her life on hold for three years, and if these boys (and their parents) would quit playing gender politics - I take it you realise that their attempt to get her off her team was gender politics? - she won’t have to: she can carry on playing basketball with kids her own age.
She shouldn’t have to hang out with older kids in order to play basketball, when there are local kids her own age to make up a team and to play against her.
From the sound of it, though, she does significantly over-match the teams in her league, which is not an ideal learning situation for her. If she really is “the best sixth-grade girl’s basketball player in the country,” she’d be better served playing with people who have all had their growth spurts already than in the sixth-grade boys’ league.
Obviously I’m not endorsing forcing her out.
Fair point - but there’s also an issue about pushing a kid who just happens to be really good at basketball *too hard*. She’s 12. Maybe she can compete equally with 18-year-olds in high school teams, but if so, is it going to hurt her to wait 2 years during which she plays with the best of the kids her own age? From all I gather of the careers of pro basketball players, many of them don’t even start playing structured basketball till they’re in high school.
As a former wrestler myself (with the scar from the A/C separation to prove it), I’ll point out that that’s what jock straps are for. The argument that they’re supposed to provide some protection for when some other guy’s bicep is suddenly buried in your crotch is countered by noting that all they are is bit of strategically binding cloth, as opposed to the hard cups worn when actual protection is desired.
If she can do it, let her do it. Besides, if she’s playing with boys her age, they’ll be catching up to her pretty soon anyway.
I have no problem with women’s leagues in general. Women are and will always, in general, be physically different from men. On average, they will not be as large/strong as men. But there will always be people who are exceptional and we should be able to accommodate them.
In a situation where a woman has the physicality to compete on the same (or better) level, there should be no rule to stop her.
I was really hoping Michelle Wei, for example, would have been able to get into the PGA. There’s no reason why a female kicker couldn’t do well in Pro Football. Auto racing is a good fit - Danica Patrick? Any place where upper-body strength is not the be-all end-all requirement would seem a possibility, and there are some women who would do well anyway.
As a very proud father to my daughter, I want to see as many open doors for her and all other young women as possible…
As a former women’s basketball player, I say good on her. Being 6′1″ when she’s 12 must be brutal, and the fact that she’s found something that she’s good at and which makes her height an asset will do wonders for her self-esteem as she goes through high school.
Not to mention the fact that to be good enough at basketball to play at a higher level, girls still *have* to run with the boys. And, from experience, the only boys who complain that they “can’t push” or that they “play differently” with girls are the ones who can’t compete. Boys and men who are any good (and are therefore fun to play with) treat you like one of the boys when you’re playing.
The ones who complain that they have to treat you differently also tend to be the ones who say they’ll be on “shirts” while you should be on “skins.” Which is a HILARIOUS joke when you’re 14. And 18.
HonoreDB, where I come from, you have to be a student in the high school to play on the high school team. And a sixth grader is not in high school.
anecdote: when my daughter was 8, she was in youth baseball (most emphatically NOT softball) and the coach tried to recruit her for football AND wrestling because she was small, strong and fast…
Twelve is a strange age. The U12 and U14 soccer teams in our neck of the woods are filled with an amazing assortment of sizes and body types. We’ve got 5 foot 10, 170 lb boys playing with 4 foot 7, 80 lb boys. Girls are generally bigger at that age for the next year or two.
Gender should not be part of the equation, except and unless the kids are at an age where one gender has such an inherent advantage at a particular sport that they fair thing to do is to set up separate-but-equal (Title 9) systems.
I think in this case it really should be up to the family whether to play Jaime with her age group or at a higher level. Does this league have any history of kicking out boys who are far superior to their age cohort?
The Celtics have a back-up center named Glen Davis, but everyone just calls him “Big Baby”. My understanding is that he got this somewhat unflattering moniker when he was 12 and had to play football with much older boys given the weight class he was already in. He wasn’t developmentally ready to play “with the big boys” and got a reputation for being a baby. But hey, he managed to wear the title as a badge of honor and now he’s a popular NBA player, so I guess he wasn’t scarred horribly by the experience.
But still, it’s hard to balance youth sports — you need to keep the kids around the same size for safety; you want keep kids in age groups to strengthen the social ties the kids have in the rest of their school and home lives (sorry — I have to disagree with the suggestion that “Basketball is for basketball, and friends are for friends” — sports can eat so much of your free time that it becomes your primary social outlet); you want the games to be fun but challenging but fair but exciting.
Actually, I’d say there’s no reason why women couldn’t be in more positions than merely a kicker Mike, as I watch female football here in the US, and those chicks are TOUGH, and should easily make it into pro football. Will it end up 50/50? Probably not, but saying a “kicker” is a bit of a back-handed compliment hon.
Hell, there’s some women rugby players back home that I think could easily fit into the All Blacks, but that’s not how they run things, mores the pity.
The differences in the averages when it comes to speed, strength, bulk and height between the sexes are EASILY eclipsed by the ENORMOUS overlap of the bell-curves for such. Merely focusing on the differences between the means is almost meaningless.
I’m certain I would have treated any girl playing basketball in my junior high like a boy, and I sucked. I, uh, broke my ex-step-sister’s collarbone playing football in the backyard…
So yeah, this is ridiculous on the face of it. Do these parents think they’re doing their kids a favor? This is nothing but excuse-making.
HonoreDB, she’s *12*.
That’s a hell of a long way from high school.
Sure, it’s only 2-3 years in age and academics, but in emotional behavior and maturity it’s light years.
And the decision should be Jaime’s and her parents’ to make, not the parents of a boys team that got their asses handed to them by ZOMG! a girl
This is the patriarchy rearing its ugly head, and I’m glad to hear the general reaction has been a push back against it.
If Jaime had been James, all these parents would do is whine. But she’s a GIRL, so she shouldn’t be allowed to be better than boys at sports.
I hate those parents. Not only are they assholes, they are teaching their sons to be assholes and whiny poor losers that think that they are entitled to ‘affirmative action’ b/c they have penises.
Actually, I’d say there’s no reason why women couldn’t be in more positions than merely a kicker Mike, as I watch female football here in the US, and those chicks are TOUGH, and should easily make it into pro football.
i think that’s a little optimistic. the women’s 100m dash world record is regularly bested by high school boys - and at the NFL level, players are running that fast, but at 6′5″ and 220 pounds.
i -do- think eventually women will play at the NBA level, and that they probably are already at an equal level at tennis. but the sheer size/speed thing is perhaps too much to over come.
Bzzzzzzt, and for the same reasons “really good college team could beat a really bad pro team!” is faulty as well. It’s in the lines.
D-linesmen and O-linesmen in the NFL are HUGE. 6′5″, 350-400 pounds huge. So while female league players might match the vague notion of “toughness,” or while a really good college team can match pro speed, you can’t really do much unless you move bodies in the trenches. I guess with a female-heavy roster you could just install the spread…which has worked all of never in the NFL.
I have coached 12-14 year old boys basketball for over 10 years. I fully believe that if these boys were raised as most boys are, that they have always been told that putting your hands on a girl is out of bounds unless specifically invited. That is not the case with other boys. This situation challenges that teaching.
There’s no doubt that my guys would not defend a girl in the post with the same physicality as they would a boy nor would they foul her as hard or hand check her the same way. It is not a bad thing, and they are not sexist for conducting themselves that way. This is a situation for which no-one prepard their sons.
It leaves everyone involved in an interesting situation. Do you teach your players new defense techniques for dealing with one player? The answer is clearly yes - it happens all the time. At this level, there are always dominant players who can and do take over games if you throw and standard defense at them. Certain kids develop faster, work harder, what have you. You overcome that by calling traps and presses against such a player and force them to give up the ball. None of which, by the way, involves any of the kind of contact or requirements that would make the boys uncomfortable.
It is very hard on a 12 year old to get thumped by anyone - but it is hardly more mentally taxing for it to be a girl. Step up coaches. Let her play and design a defense that stops her.
If men’s football was played by guys of relatively average body size, I might agree with you. But it’s not — on the professional level, it’s played by guys who are at the extreme end of the scale. No matter how good she is, a fit, 170-pound woman is going to get hurt when two 300-pound linebackers smash her to the ground.
(So would a fit, 170-pound guy, which is why those guys are, yes, kickers and not linemen.)
Baseball is a more likely candidate for co-ed play since it doesn’t rely solely on brute strength. You’re probably not going to have a female home run champ, but if your team’s only strategy is to hit home runs, you’re going to lose. A lot.
“…but saying a “kicker” is a bit of a back-handed compliment hon.”
I didn’t mean it that way, and I certainly agree that anybody who can do the job should be allowed a shot at it. Gender shouldn’t be allowed to count against them.
There are a lot of great cops, firefighters, soldiers, pilots, engineers, scientists, plumbers - you name it - who just happen to have different parts in their pants.
I’ve always emphasized with my daughter that she can go wherever she wants. She happens to be a really good athlete, but at 5′9″ and 140lbs, she won’t be a lineman in football. She’ll be 17 in a few days, so she’s probably not going to get much bigger.
OTOH, her math skills, her understanding of science, and her general logic and reasoning skills put me to shame when I was her age. Athletics are still in the picture, she excels at sports where fitness, the ability to run all day, and general stamina are the keys to success.
No. Teams that walk and hit home runs are more of a market value than teams that rely on small-ball (bunting, hit and run, etc.) strategies, as they’re less inclined to give up outs, and don’t leave themselves open to fielding chances. See: Sabermetrics.
You know a decision is bad when even Dr T realizes it’s bad.
I think that the ““If she were 4-feet-9 and no good, we wouldn’t be having this discussion” line is probably wrong, though. If she were 4′9 and no good, there would be parents complaining that she should be excluded because girls can’t cut it in co-ed sports.
Baseball is a more likely candidate for co-ed play since it doesn’t rely solely on brute strength.
Netball, the non-contact cousin of basketball, is even more so. Although it’s *the* women’s team sport in the Commonwealth, it’s notable that there’s been a rise in mixed and competing male teams over recent years as the boy/girl cootie factor loses its grip.
I love the people that leap in with “women could NEVER do X!” as though by proclaiming so, it just is. Makes me wonder why they are so invested in ensuring women, by virtue of how things are now, couldn’t possibly ever compete on the same level.
I’m not saying that all women could compete with all men. Clearly, that’s absurd. But, if they CAN, they should be allowed to, even if they are only in small numbers, and that includes football. And the way things are currently organised, they aren’t allowed to. Or, they are so discouraged from doing so growing up, that by the time they get to an age where they may like to, they haven’t had the development in terms of skills and physicality, in order to do so.
I’m kinda disappointed in the posters here that they would have this knee-jerk a patriarchal reaction to the mere suggestion of having women compete. It’s the kind of thing we abhor in those that would, say, argue against women in combat.
I didn’t see anyone do that. I did see people point out that expecting women to be able to compete in most positions in pro football is pretty pie-in-the-sky given the direction that game has gone (ie making sheer body mass more important than skill). Doug Flutie was considered a dwarf quarterback at 5 foot 10. There are many more sports that are better candidates to go co-ed in the near future than NFL football.
But, hey, if there are 6′3″, 260-pound women out there who really want to be linebackers and can do the job, they should be allowed to. I just don’t think there are as many of them as you seem to think.
You don’t get to be equal parts morbidly obese and fearsome killing machine, as NFL linemen are, by simple practice.
Yeah, if there’s a woman who could take down a double team of Patriots defenders on a blitz, let her play. And if there’s one who could swat away a deep pass for Randy Moss, let her play. And always encourage women’s football leagues.
But don’t pretend that sheer tenacity will somehow overcome a treeeeeeeeeemendous size/speed advantage. I’m 5′11″, 175 pounds. Fairly well-built, not really fast. Lettered in baseball in high school…didn’t hit for average or power well, but drew a ton of walks and was notoriously patient. I also tried (trust me) really, really hard. I was TOUGH(TM). But in no way did I think I could ever play in college. My smarts and grit could make up for some of the talent disparity, but not nearly enough.
While there aren’t a ton of 170 lb. pro football players, once one gets up into the 185 range, one finds more folks — cornerbacks, running backs/returners, wide receivers…
It’s part of the joy of the sport for me. There is a place for most body types, and even at the pro level, there are players of roughly average heights and (well-maintained) builds.
The whole not wanting to push a girl argument is bullshit. When I played boys hockey nobody had a problem with it, sometimes it made guys on other teams hit me harder because they didn’t like that I was there. And yes, I competed with boys into high school. And I’m 5′4″ and weighed about 100 lbs in high school. And no, I didn’t get hurt when I was at the bottom of a pile of guys twice my size.
I agree with Entomologista. I don’t believe for a second that in the midst of a freaking basketball game, excitable 12-year-old boys were suddenly thinking “Oh, wait, I can’t check HER, she’s a GIRL” when confronted with a star player several heads taller than them. Basketball’s too fast and physical a game for that to be remotely plausible.
“We lost because we didn’t want to check a girl” strikes me as the sort of thing that you’d come up with after losing, to salve a wounded ego.
If they’d enforced gender separation all along, I wouldn’t have as much of an issue with it (you can make an argument for separate girls’ and boys’ teams due to the different rates of physical development), but to abruptly and selectively enforce a rule after ignoring it for many years is outrageous. It’s unfair to Jaime, it’s unfair to her team (sorry, we’ve suddenly decided that you don’t get your star player!), and it teaches her opponents that poor sportsmanship and after-the-fact whinging can and should trump superior play. That’s almost exactly the opposite of the lesson youth sports is meant to teach.
“…and it teaches her opponents that poor sportsmanship and after-the-fact whinging can and should trump superior play.”
I didn’t realize there was that much potential for sports to model the adult world. Interesting…
“That’s almost exactly the opposite of the lesson youth sports is meant to teach.”
…or it can serve as a valuable introduction to the way real life actually works…
[/snark] - I think…?
ive always had a hard time with the size disparity around that age. exceptional boy basketball players are matched up against older competition all the time so that they actually get a challenge and develop their skills. apparently her parents feel that shouldnt be done here, more power to them but it will be interesting to see how it works out.
as far as pro sports, I don’t see many women making it into the nfl, perhaps a one in a million kind of woman could be a linebacker or lineman (just as only 1 in 50000 guys can do it at the pro level). Im a pats fan and when I look at someone like wes welker I could see a woman playing his role but it would just be exceedingly rare. the nfl represents the top 1/1000 percent of all football players.
this team is a club team no? Overall I have no problem with anyone who wants to playing on club teams but I do when it comes to school teams (varsity and jv). When I was in High School young women could play baseball and while they were my friends and they were good players I felt it was unfair to the guy cut from the squad to make room for her who then doesnt have the option of playing on the softball team.
JamesPi–
When you say “it was unfair to the guy cut from the squad to make room for her,” you are implying that the needs of men trump those of women. If the woman is the better baseball player, she should be the one on the team. Being born male does not give someone the inalienable right to make the baseball team if they lack the necessary talent.
There’s no doubt that my guys would not defend a girl in the post with the same physicality as they would a boy nor would they foul her as hard or hand check her the same way. It is not a bad thing, and they are not sexist for conducting themselves that way. This is a situation for which no-one prepard their sons.
Some of us did prepare our sons for this, Dr. T.
And —
YES, IT DOES MAKE THEM SEXIST!
If you treat another player differently because of their gender, that is sexist. Full stop.
If you play against someone differently because of anything other than how best to counter that person’s skill set, that is wrong. If you play at a lesser level due to it, it is insulting.
At the risk of inflaming the age-old argument, I agree with this, as long as the guy is allowed to try out for the softball team. They are two separate sports after all - and there’s most certainly no guarantee that the aforementioned guys would be able to handle fast-pitch softball. But if he’s the better softball player…
Unless the CFL has changed overmuch in the past 10 years or so, I imagine we will see some female football players before you USians will. Last I’d heard, at least, the game was still largely about speed, agility, and tactics, and our players tend to be smaller and speedier than US football players.
I’m not even a sports fan and I’d like to see more women in professional sports, and I don’t just mean the sort of “ladies’ auxiliary” ghetto that exists now…
It gets tricky, though. When you have a 6′5″, 205-pound guy playing field hockey against girls half his size, you do start to worry that someone’s going to get hurt. When it’s one or two guys, it’s not a huge deal, but when you get several guys that size, all of a sudden the girls get squeezed out altogether and it turns into a boys’ sport.
Personally, I think all sports should be ranked by weight the way boxing and wrestling are. You’d have more men at the tops of the weight/height classes and more women at the bottom, but it would definitely encourage more co-ed sports.
Interesting, Dr. T, because my experience with sports in junior high was that the boys took every opportunity to pound the crap out of the girls in sports. You were supposed to hit the bitches, see, so you might as well hit them extra-hard.
I don’t suppose I have to tell you how they reacted to getting it right back.
you need to keep the kids around the same size for safety; you want keep kids in age groups to strengthen the social ties the kids have in the rest of their school and home lives…
The safety argument I agree with strongly. Jaime should be playing against others more similar to her in size than the typical U12 boy, simply because she can fall on another sixth-grader and break him/her. Not gender-related, except to the extent that if she had been born XY she would likely have reached this size at the age of 13.5-14 years. Gender discrepancies in growth patterns among siblings demonstrate this.
However, the social-ties aspect to sports need not be age-based.
My kid is in her third year of elite-level competition in an individual sport in which size isn’t relevant to safety. She is almost done with the second grade. Her longstanding friendship with the girl she works out with, who just turned 16–her parents bought her a car, I’m jealous that Jane is self-transporting!–is a valuable relationship for both sides.
We love that our child is looking up to a teen who is motivated and disciplined as well as kind to younger kids. Jane’s parents appreciate that Jane makes the kinds of tough judgments that teens have to make about their friends partly in the light of, Is this someone who I would want around the [sports venue] and talking to the PhoenixLet?
The notion that social ties are strongest and most important among same-age people becomes irrelevant for most typical adults sometime during college–why wait until then to stop emphasizing the number of the years?
Yeah, and if there’s enough interest in field hockey, there should be a men’s team too. But to do it unilaterally (back to baseball/softball) you end up favoring the 19th-best female stick-and-ball player over the 18th-best male stick-and-ball player and jsut end up with putting one gender’s needs over another’s again.
This reminds me a little of a story I saw in the papers about a year ago about a thirteen year old Aboriginal girl who was so good at Australian Rules football that she was blowing all her competitors away in the boys league. There she was, looking strong and healthy and smiling radiantly, and all I could think was that it was a very bitter sweet story really - there’s nowhere for a girl that talented to go to play once she’s well into her teenage years, there’s no professional women’s league, women were told recently by one of our biggest football personalities that they have no place in the game really, this after he publicly ridiculed a female sports journalist. I just thought, well, if that were my daughter, to be honest, I’d be telling her that football was all very nice, but better be spending more time hitting the books and thinking of University because no matter how talented she was, football wouldn’t get her anywhere. Which I think is sad.
Australian rules football, by the way, is the envy of other football codes here (rugby, soccer etc) for having a really big, genuine female fan base - women from all walks of life, elderly women, young women, mother with kids etc, - it’s a genuine lifelong passion for men and women here, yet there’s nowhere really for them to take that interest should they want to play and be really really good at it.
Actually in High School one of my younger brothers wrestled in the 103 lb weight class and did have a girl as an opponent once. This was back in the dim dark days of the mid 90’s too.
I seem to recall he had to wrestle a boy with one arm once as well. But that’s neither here nore there.
i think that’s a little optimistic. the women’s 100m dash world record is regularly bested by high school boys -
Evidence please? Citations? Proof?
My son’s kindergarten teacher has two daughters who run faster than just about ANY BOY IN THE GODDAMNED STATE.
Which is why the younger one will likely head to Beijing on her Bermudan citizenship.
What was that you were saying about high school boys breaking the women’s world record? Oh, please link to some instance of that in, oh, an olympic trial or something. Regularly being usually reserved for bowel movements.
At least 150 high school boys have done it this year, Ms Kate.
the current women’s world record is 10.49 sec: set by florence griffith-joyner in 1988. she was a full quarter of a second faster than the record she broke, evelyn ashford’s 10.76. that’s just nuts, a quarter of a second is practically an eternity in the 100m.
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Record_progression_100_m_women
this is the all-time record list for the illinois state boys’ 100m dash:
http://www.ihsa.org/activity/trb/records/atop.htm#0X100
there are 39 people listed with a 10.4 or below. some of those numbers might be manually-timed and iffy - however, the current official national high school boys’ record is 10.15 sec, set in 1990. the official illinois state record is 10.37. (my own personal best in high school was a 10.9 - good, but not good enough to qualify for state.)
http://www.ihsa.org/activity/trb/records/eventrec.htm
“regularly” might be a stretch, though “often” would probably do. i looked about, and the state records of illinois, indiana, ohio, kentucky, florida, california, and texas were all under 10.49 seconds. it’s hard to dig up the times for people who didn’t break the state record, obviously.
oops, too many links probably set off the spam filter.
Stephen, most of the boys on that list were probably running 100 yards, not 100 meters. 100 yards is 91 meters - and in the US, 100 yards was the standard sprinting distance in most high-school level meets.
While it may be nice for you to believe that high-school boys in your home state are fast enough to compete with Olympic-standard women athletes, on account of, you know, boyz being better than gurls you really have nothing to back up that belief but a list based on running times over a substantially different distance.
Jesurgislac, The linked site said 100 meters, not yards, so it is likely that those are times for the hundred meters.
Nothing to back up his assertions besides, like, data.
Stephen, most of the boys on that list were probably running 100 yards, not 100 meters.
They have not accepted records for distances run in standard units - except for the mile - since 1976.
I agree with you, but the fact is that (for those of us in the majority who choose not to homeschool) that public or private schools are the primary social constructs for these kids, and in the vast majority of schools, kids are tightly stratified by age. I did not mean to suggest It Must Be That Way, just that it is that way and it can be easier on kids if sports happens with kids the same age. YMMV.
Rob: Jesurgislac, The linked site said 100 meters, not yards, so it is likely that those are times for the hundred meters.
Ah, you should read more carefully. One site Stephen linked to, which I think was the source of his “regularly - well - often” flailing, has records that go back to 1914. While listed as the 100-Meter Dash, I do believe they’re being more than a bit mendacious: was any American high school routinely running metric distances in sports before the 2000s? If true, source please. I suspect not: the IHSA state records specified as 100-m dash give 10.37 in 1986 as a record, while that higgly-piggly list Stephen likes gives “10.2″ in 1996, which therefore must be a 100-yard dash time.
Rob: Nothing to back up his assertions besides, like, data.
It’s that kind of thinking that caused the Gimli Glider… Metric meters and imperial yards are not directly equivalent.
Sarcastro: They have not accepted records for distances run in standard units - except for the mile - since 1976.
Who are the “they” in that sentence?
Stephen, most of the boys on that list were probably running 100 yards, not 100 meters.
From Stephen’s link, the web site for the Illinios High School Association:
100-Meter Dash
200-Meter Dash
400-Meter Dash
800-Meter Run
1600-Meter Run
3200-Meter Run
110-Meter High Hurdles
300-Meter Intermediate Hurdles
400-Meter Relay
800-Meter Relay
1600-Meter Relay
3200-Meter Relay
While it may be nice for you to believe that high-school boys in your home state are fast enough to compete with Olympic-standard women athletes, on account of, you know, boyz being better than gurls you really have nothing to back up that belief but a list based on running times over a substantially different distance.
Or, you know, Stephen could have actually looked at what he was linking to before opening his mouth…
Steven, not Stephen, dammit.
It’s nice to know Skitt’s Law has more general applications.
it’s definitely 100 meters. everyone in track and field, from olympic runners down to pee-wee squirts, runs in metric units now.
i corrected myself in the list above, as you can see, because the first list i linked wasn’t of electronically-timed scores.
the link auguste found is certainly better than my first link, however.
It’s actually NOT better than your link, and I owe an apology for bad reading skills too. There’s times on there going back to 2005; so it’s “150 boys over the last three years.”
Apologies.
well, whatever. it’s modern, fully-automated times.
http://speedendurance.com/2007/07/20/440-yard-and-400-meter-racing-facts-and-figures/
for further proof you can go out to the local football field and compare the 100-yard field to the 100-meter track straightaway, i guess.
it wasn’t my intention to cause a big dust-up.
Who are the “they” in that sentence?
The International Association of Athletics Federation. Although, to be fair, American high-schools did not completely phase out standard distances until after 1979.
was any American high school routinely running metric distances in sports before the 2000s? If true, source please.
They were in Indiana at least: “Beginning in 1980, all running events were conducted at metric distances.”
Ever get sick of being wrong all the time?
because my experience with sports in junior high was that the boys took every opportunity to pound the crap out of the girls in sports.
Yeah, my only experience of mixed sports at high school was the same. We played hockey and netball together and the boys did not hesitate to shove, thump and grab as much as possible in order to prove their supposed superiority to us. Can’t be beaten by a girl, see?
Unfortunately for them, we girls all hit, thump and pushed right back. Blood was shed, literally. We got banned from contact sports after a particularly brutal hockey bloodbath involving a hip dislocation one autumn afternoon and were forced to play tennis, badminton and squash only after that. Believe me, the boys didn’t like being beaten at tennis etc either.
FTR, I didn’t go toa rough school, either. The group I’m describing was composed of the top set of girls and boys in our year. We were, especially by modernstandards, ‘nice’ kids and the boys ‘nice’ boys.
Since I’m feeling ranty today, may I say that one of the most annoying aspects of co-ed sports is that every guy on your team immediately becomes an expert and starts advising you on how to play.
The one that stands out was the guy ON MY TEAM who kept telling me “Choke up on the bat!” until I wanted to shove it up his ass. And, hey, look, I struck out when I followed his advice, but I got a base hit when I did it my way. It’s almost like I knew what I was fucking doing or something.
Sarcastro: Ever get sick of being wrong all the time?
You know, what’s interesting to me about this comment - especially in the context of boys hating to be beat by girls - is that you need to try to make this out to me being “wrong all the time”.
Stephen made a mistake. Too bad.
where exactly did i make a mistake, other than posting a questionable link?
high school boys run 100 meters, not 100 yards. i know this because i did it myself, between 1996-1999. (i also ran 200 meters.) the 100 meters i ran were definitely longer than the 100-yard football field inside the track. they were also the same as the 100 meters on the college track where really big meets were held.
where exactly did i make a mistake, other than posting a questionable link?
You asserted: this is the all-time record list for the illinois state boys’ 100m dash:
http://www.ihsa.org/activity/trb/records/atop.htm#0X100
there are 39 people listed with a 10.4 or below. some of those numbers might be manually-timed and iffy - however, the current official national high school boys’ record is 10.15 sec, set in 1990. the official illinois state record is 10.37. (my own personal best in high school was a 10.9 - good, but not good enough to qualify for state.)
That list includes, quite close to the top, such questionable data as “10.3, Allen Spafford, Morrison, 1914″
In 1912, the Olympic winner of the men’s 100 meter dash did it in 10.8 seconds. So you are either claiming that in Illinois boys routinely run faster than Olympic champions of I think is more likely?
Steven, I apologize for spelling your name wrong.
But you asked: where exactly did i make a mistake, other than posting a questionable link?
A questionable link to an official Illinois site which was supposed to prove the point you were making, and doesn’t - because it doesn’t distinguish between 100 yards and 100 meters? You do recognize downthread that this matters - you do know the difference between yards and meters - and, yet, you asserted: this is the all-time record list for the illinois state boys’ 100m dash:
http://www.ihsa.org/activity/trb/records/atop.htm#0X100
there are 39 people listed with a 10.4 or below.
That list includes, quite close to the top, such questionable data as “10.3, Allen Spafford, Morrison, 1914″
In 1912, the Olympic winner of the men’s 100 meter dash did it in 10.8 seconds. So you are either claiming that in Illinois boys routinely run faster than Olympic champions of either gender… or you were linking to list of records that made no distinction between the 100-yard dash and the 100-meter dash.
Guess which I think is more likely?
And you know what? I’m not even a sports expert. I didn’t know what the men’s 100-meter-dash record was at the Olympics. I just thought that data looked wrong - too fast too long ago - and I checked, and it was.
i posted one bad link, admittedly, and one good one. people -now- are certainly running the 100m dash, in high school, in the sub-10.5 range. only the best of the best are doing it, but it is happening.
You know, what’s interesting to me about this comment - especially in the context of boys hating to be beat by girls - is that you need to try to make this out to me being “wrong all the time”.
I do not possess a mystical, magical internet enabled sex detector. That insult was perfectly gender neutral (and purposefully hyperbolic). Male or female, you really don’t have so much as the first clue about what you are opining about and these knee-jerk accusations of sexism leavened with healthy doses of ignorantly misguided scorn speak only to your own biases and insecurities.
I’m not even a sports expert.
OK, so you’re not wrong all the time.
I’ll gladly entertain notions of sexism in sports where the physiological differences are minimal or actually tend towards favoring females - like auto racing for instance - but I will not blithely ignore plain facts in order to insist we should expect to see women playing offensive line in the NFL.
Steven: i posted one bad link
Quite.
Ah, you’re the new troll on the block, Sarcastro. I wondered who it was.
New troll? That’s rich. You’re… um, what’s the word I’m looking for? Seems like it ought to come easy by now. Sounds like a bell… Um…. oh yea! You are
WRONG
i posted one bad link, admittedly, and one good one. people -now- are certainly running the 100m dash, in high school, in the sub-10.5 range. only the best of the best are doing it, but it is happening.
Steven, you could go outrun Flojo in front of Jesurgislac and she’d still argue the point with you. She honestly believes it is inconceivable that an 18 year old in 2008 could possibly outrun a 19 year old from 1912 (Don Lipincot b. 1893, 10.6, world record until 1920).
I give up. No reasoning with crazy people.