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	<title>Comments on: Colorado: conflict over parking leads to Taser duel</title>
	<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/19/colorado-conflict-over-parking-leads-to-taser-duel/</link>
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	<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 12:01:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: North of 49</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/19/colorado-conflict-over-parking-leads-to-taser-duel/#comment-517719</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 03:26:23 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/19/colorado-conflict-over-parking-leads-to-taser-duel/#comment-517719</guid>
					<description>Caroline, I hope you come back and see this.

There's an inquiry into Tasers going on right now in Vancouver, BC, and in Wednesday's Vancouver Sun the headline read &lt;i&gt;Taser could trigger a heart attack&quot;.&lt;/i&gt; 

The doctor quoted here is Dr Michael Janusz, a heart surgeon at Vancouver General Hospital.

&quot;Tasers must be regarded as being capable of causing cardiac arrest.&quot; 

&quot;There has to be underlying heart disease or other contributing factors, such as lack of oxygen due to asphyxia or massive bloodloss or severe metabolic abnormalities such as acidosis or abnormal potassium levels, he said.&quot;  But given any of those, or a combination, it's possible, and the risk is not trivial.

Another doctor, specialist in electrophysiology at St. Paul's Hospital and UBC, Charles Kerr, said &quot;there is a small possibility that an electrical discharge from a Taser dart could directly induce ventricular fibrillation.&quot;  (This means that even without the underlying conditions Dr Janusz talked about, it could still happen.)

He said the pain of the Taze causes intense muscle contraction, an increase in heart rate and adrenalin-like chemicals and sympathetic nerve discharge. Couple that with physical restraint and the victim could have trouble breathing properly, which could drop their oxygen levels, which changes the acid balance in the blood, &quot;which would make the patient more prone to ventricular arrhythmias&quot;. 

Asked later about multiple Taser shocks, he said that would probably cause more muscle contraction and more acidosis of the blood. (Which I guess would increase the chances of arrhythmia.)

Can't link right to the article: paywall. But I'm sure it's been picked up and syndicated by now. Hope it serves.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Caroline, I hope you come back and see this.</p>
	<p>There&#8217;s an inquiry into Tasers going on right now in Vancouver, BC, and in Wednesday&#8217;s Vancouver Sun the headline read <i>Taser could trigger a heart attack&#8221;.</i> </p>
	<p>The doctor quoted here is Dr Michael Janusz, a heart surgeon at Vancouver General Hospital.</p>
	<p>&#8220;Tasers must be regarded as being capable of causing cardiac arrest.&#8221; </p>
	<p>&#8220;There has to be underlying heart disease or other contributing factors, such as lack of oxygen due to asphyxia or massive bloodloss or severe metabolic abnormalities such as acidosis or abnormal potassium levels, he said.&#8221;  But given any of those, or a combination, it&#8217;s possible, and the risk is not trivial.</p>
	<p>Another doctor, specialist in electrophysiology at St. Paul&#8217;s Hospital and UBC, Charles Kerr, said &#8220;there is a small possibility that an electrical discharge from a Taser dart could directly induce ventricular fibrillation.&#8221;  (This means that even without the underlying conditions Dr Janusz talked about, it could still happen.)</p>
	<p>He said the pain of the Taze causes intense muscle contraction, an increase in heart rate and adrenalin-like chemicals and sympathetic nerve discharge. Couple that with physical restraint and the victim could have trouble breathing properly, which could drop their oxygen levels, which changes the acid balance in the blood, &#8220;which would make the patient more prone to ventricular arrhythmias&#8221;. </p>
	<p>Asked later about multiple Taser shocks, he said that would probably cause more muscle contraction and more acidosis of the blood. (Which I guess would increase the chances of arrhythmia.)</p>
	<p>Can&#8217;t link right to the article: paywall. But I&#8217;m sure it&#8217;s been picked up and syndicated by now. Hope it serves.
</p>
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		<title>by: Caroline</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/19/colorado-conflict-over-parking-leads-to-taser-duel/#comment-517125</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 10:51:01 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/19/colorado-conflict-over-parking-leads-to-taser-duel/#comment-517125</guid>
					<description>angryyoungwoman, the Taser darts almost always land in your torso, so it's more likely that the shock would cause funky heart rhythms than a seizure.  (Unless of course you were shot in the face, as this guy claims the guard was threatening to do to his mother.)  

I'm trying to do some side reading (along with preparing for prelims at the end of this summer) about the actual effects of Tasers on the heart.  Lots of papers, in tests done on healthy young volunteers, show no problems -- but my question is, how often is someone tasered who does have an underlying heart problem, who is on drugs (legal as well as illegal) that can predispose the heart to arrhythmias (even some common antibiotics fall into this category), etc.  I found one guy who was planning to do tests in anesthetized pigs given cocaine, but hadn't run those tests yet.

I didn't feel like I had enough background reading to get into an argument with the Taser International booth at Heart Rhythm last week, so I didn't.  Maybe I should have anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>angryyoungwoman, the Taser darts almost always land in your torso, so it&#8217;s more likely that the shock would cause funky heart rhythms than a seizure.  (Unless of course you were shot in the face, as this guy claims the guard was threatening to do to his mother.)  </p>
	<p>I&#8217;m trying to do some side reading (along with preparing for prelims at the end of this summer) about the actual effects of Tasers on the heart.  Lots of papers, in tests done on healthy young volunteers, show no problems &#8212; but my question is, how often is someone tasered who does have an underlying heart problem, who is on drugs (legal as well as illegal) that can predispose the heart to arrhythmias (even some common antibiotics fall into this category), etc.  I found one guy who was planning to do tests in anesthetized pigs given cocaine, but hadn&#8217;t run those tests yet.</p>
	<p>I didn&#8217;t feel like I had enough background reading to get into an argument with the Taser International booth at Heart Rhythm last week, so I didn&#8217;t.  Maybe I should have anyway.
</p>
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		<title>by: angryyoungwoman</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/19/colorado-conflict-over-parking-leads-to-taser-duel/#comment-517082</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 07:49:40 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/19/colorado-conflict-over-parking-leads-to-taser-duel/#comment-517082</guid>
					<description>Tasers are actually kind of scary to me, given that I'm epileptic and a bit brain damaged.  Couldn't a taser cause a really bad seizure, resulting in status epilepticus?  Or what if I'd had a seizure and was all post-ictal and some stupid cop didn't understand what was going on and tased me to get me to shut up or calm down?  Both ideas--or any combination of the two--scare me a lot.  I don't like the idea of dying because someone reached for a weapon in a medical emergency.  I think it sucks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Tasers are actually kind of scary to me, given that I&#8217;m epileptic and a bit brain damaged.  Couldn&#8217;t a taser cause a really bad seizure, resulting in status epilepticus?  Or what if I&#8217;d had a seizure and was all post-ictal and some stupid cop didn&#8217;t understand what was going on and tased me to get me to shut up or calm down?  Both ideas&#8211;or any combination of the two&#8211;scare me a lot.  I don&#8217;t like the idea of dying because someone reached for a weapon in a medical emergency.  I think it sucks.
</p>
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		<title>by: inge</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/19/colorado-conflict-over-parking-leads-to-taser-duel/#comment-517075</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 06:44:22 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/19/colorado-conflict-over-parking-leads-to-taser-duel/#comment-517075</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;Bitter Scribe&lt;/i&gt;: Knowing a bunch of stupid hotheads who tend to drink more than they should and get into fights, I can only agree. 

Though every time that point gets made, someone points out that knives, bier steins and chair legs in the hands of stupid drunks are actually far more dangerous to everyone within a 20-feet radius than guns. Which makes the desire to arm onself against robbery with a gun when there are perfectly good chairs available kind of academic...
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Bitter Scribe</i>: Knowing a bunch of stupid hotheads who tend to drink more than they should and get into fights, I can only agree. </p>
	<p>Though every time that point gets made, someone points out that knives, bier steins and chair legs in the hands of stupid drunks are actually far more dangerous to everyone within a 20-feet radius than guns. Which makes the desire to arm onself against robbery with a gun when there are perfectly good chairs available kind of academic&#8230;
</p>
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		<title>by: Jonathan Hohensee</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/19/colorado-conflict-over-parking-leads-to-taser-duel/#comment-517064</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 23:25:25 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/19/colorado-conflict-over-parking-leads-to-taser-duel/#comment-517064</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;Time to start raising some serious fucking hell it seems to me … starting with the campus police and moving on from there. Maybe even throwing a good fit when freshmen parents come to visit?? If it is campus affiliated, it needs to be campus patrolled and secured!
&lt;/i&gt;
People raised a stink, but it didn't really help much other than adding more security guards at night.  The only thing stopping me from moving out is that no one wants to sublet the place-knowing the reputation the place has.  
I should be out as soon as the lease runs out.


&lt;i&gt;You’re right in that someone determined to carry a pistol around probably wouldn’t care what the law says. But I’m thinking of the borderline cases where people are hotheaded enough to reach for a pistol if it happens to be in their pocket, but would have enough respect for the law not to have the pistol there in the first place if it was illegal. There are probably more of those around than there are hardcore packing criminals.
&lt;/i&gt;
But couldn't that be applied to everywhere, not just campuses?  I guess age could be a consideration, but you'd think that if it would make sense banning it on campus, then it would make sense banning guns nation wide. (unless you want that, and considering the nature of the blog is a possibility)

A funny side note, in my lease agreement not only are guns banned, but so are javelins, pocket knives, and lawn darts.  They actually specify each of those items as not being allowed.  And yet kitchen knives, which is allowed, could probably do a better job at harming than any of those things.
Luckily I have my pitching wedge handy incase anything gets too sour.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Time to start raising some serious fucking hell it seems to me … starting with the campus police and moving on from there. Maybe even throwing a good fit when freshmen parents come to visit?? If it is campus affiliated, it needs to be campus patrolled and secured!<br />
</i><br />
People raised a stink, but it didn&#8217;t really help much other than adding more security guards at night.  The only thing stopping me from moving out is that no one wants to sublet the place-knowing the reputation the place has.<br />
I should be out as soon as the lease runs out.</p>
	<p><i>You’re right in that someone determined to carry a pistol around probably wouldn’t care what the law says. But I’m thinking of the borderline cases where people are hotheaded enough to reach for a pistol if it happens to be in their pocket, but would have enough respect for the law not to have the pistol there in the first place if it was illegal. There are probably more of those around than there are hardcore packing criminals.<br />
</i><br />
But couldn&#8217;t that be applied to everywhere, not just campuses?  I guess age could be a consideration, but you&#8217;d think that if it would make sense banning it on campus, then it would make sense banning guns nation wide. (unless you want that, and considering the nature of the blog is a possibility)</p>
	<p>A funny side note, in my lease agreement not only are guns banned, but so are javelins, pocket knives, and lawn darts.  They actually specify each of those items as not being allowed.  And yet kitchen knives, which is allowed, could probably do a better job at harming than any of those things.<br />
Luckily I have my pitching wedge handy incase anything gets too sour.
</p>
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		<title>by: RobW</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/19/colorado-conflict-over-parking-leads-to-taser-duel/#comment-517054</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 22:12:52 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/19/colorado-conflict-over-parking-leads-to-taser-duel/#comment-517054</guid>
					<description>Thanks, Pam, for posting a story about Tasers that didn't have me gnashing my teeth in frustration and anger but instead had me holding my sides in gut-busting laughter.  I would so love to witness two assholes, each completely convinced of his own righteous self-importance, zap each other with high voltage at the same time.  It's like a high-tech three stooges routine.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thanks, Pam, for posting a story about Tasers that didn&#8217;t have me gnashing my teeth in frustration and anger but instead had me holding my sides in gut-busting laughter.  I would so love to witness two assholes, each completely convinced of his own righteous self-importance, zap each other with high voltage at the same time.  It&#8217;s like a high-tech three stooges routine.
</p>
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		<title>by: Ms Kate</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/19/colorado-conflict-over-parking-leads-to-taser-duel/#comment-517032</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 20:01:55 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/19/colorado-conflict-over-parking-leads-to-taser-duel/#comment-517032</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;That said, you REALLY need to move. When you start having home invasion robberies, that’s a sign to get the fuck out of that building.&lt;/i&gt;

Wait a second - campus affiliated and it has home invasions?

Time to start raising some serious fucking hell it seems to me ... starting with the campus police and moving on from there.  Maybe even throwing a good fit when freshmen parents come to visit??  If it is campus affiliated, it needs to be campus patrolled and secured!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>That said, you REALLY need to move. When you start having home invasion robberies, that’s a sign to get the fuck out of that building.</i></p>
	<p>Wait a second - campus affiliated and it has home invasions?</p>
	<p>Time to start raising some serious fucking hell it seems to me &#8230; starting with the campus police and moving on from there.  Maybe even throwing a good fit when freshmen parents come to visit??  If it is campus affiliated, it needs to be campus patrolled and secured!
</p>
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		<title>by: Mnemosyne</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/19/colorado-conflict-over-parking-leads-to-taser-duel/#comment-517025</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 18:48:55 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/19/colorado-conflict-over-parking-leads-to-taser-duel/#comment-517025</guid>
					<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Personally, living in a high-crime gun-free campus affiliated housing where a gun point robberies occurred next door to me, I would be much more pleased knowing that I have a gun to protect myself even if it means my neighbors have guns.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Your college neighbors must be much more well-behaved than mine were.  If I'd had a gun when my upstairs neighbors were playing &quot;Sex&quot; (that Berlin song) on a one-hour endless loop at 3 am, serious damage might have been done in my sleep-deprived state.

That said, you REALLY need to move.  When you start having home invasion robberies, that's a sign to get the fuck out of that building.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<blockquote><p>Personally, living in a high-crime gun-free campus affiliated housing where a gun point robberies occurred next door to me, I would be much more pleased knowing that I have a gun to protect myself even if it means my neighbors have guns.</p></blockquote>
	<p>Your college neighbors must be much more well-behaved than mine were.  If I&#8217;d had a gun when my upstairs neighbors were playing &#8220;Sex&#8221; (that Berlin song) on a one-hour endless loop at 3 am, serious damage might have been done in my sleep-deprived state.</p>
	<p>That said, you REALLY need to move.  When you start having home invasion robberies, that&#8217;s a sign to get the fuck out of that building.
</p>
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		<title>by: J.D.</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/19/colorado-conflict-over-parking-leads-to-taser-duel/#comment-517023</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 18:42:53 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/19/colorado-conflict-over-parking-leads-to-taser-duel/#comment-517023</guid>
					<description>Colorado Security Services earns a percentage of each boot removal fee, so they're incented to boot vehicles as often as possible.  Their goal isn't to keep parking lots free of inappropriate vehicles or to keep the premesis safe, but rather to charge as many fees as they can.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.flickr.com/photos/jdfalk/1454850767/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here's the story&lt;/a&gt; of what they did to me last fall, which was fairly minor -- search around a bit, though, and you'll find many more.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Colorado Security Services earns a percentage of each boot removal fee, so they&#8217;re incented to boot vehicles as often as possible.  Their goal isn&#8217;t to keep parking lots free of inappropriate vehicles or to keep the premesis safe, but rather to charge as many fees as they can.</p>
	<p><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/jdfalk/1454850767/" rel="nofollow">Here&#8217;s the story</a> of what they did to me last fall, which was fairly minor &#8212; search around a bit, though, and you&#8217;ll find many more.
</p>
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		<title>by: Bitter Scribe</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/19/colorado-conflict-over-parking-leads-to-taser-duel/#comment-517012</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 16:33:12 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/19/colorado-conflict-over-parking-leads-to-taser-duel/#comment-517012</guid>
					<description>Jonathan: I'm sorry your living quarters are so depressing, but I really don't think firearms are the answer.

You're right in that someone determined to carry a pistol around probably wouldn't care what the law says. But I'm thinking of the borderline cases where people are hotheaded enough to reach for a pistol if it happens to be in their pocket, but would have enough respect for the law not to have the pistol there in the first place if it was illegal. There are probably more of those around than there are hardcore packing criminals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Jonathan: I&#8217;m sorry your living quarters are so depressing, but I really don&#8217;t think firearms are the answer.</p>
	<p>You&#8217;re right in that someone determined to carry a pistol around probably wouldn&#8217;t care what the law says. But I&#8217;m thinking of the borderline cases where people are hotheaded enough to reach for a pistol if it happens to be in their pocket, but would have enough respect for the law not to have the pistol there in the first place if it was illegal. There are probably more of those around than there are hardcore packing criminals.
</p>
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