Posted by Amanda Marcotte May 17, 2008 in Asides, Interblog
The word “penultimate” belongs in the same category as the Oxford comma. What that category is, however, is out of my mental reach. Help from the whip-smart Pandagonians?
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What’s wrong with ‘penultimate’?
You’re trying to say that both are in the category of technical terms that have a more vernacular, less technical synonym (eg, “serial comma” is better than “Oxford comma”). However, I like keeping penultimate in use for two reasons: first, it is a really good word that sounds better and less stilted than “second-to-last” or “next to last.” Second, we need to keep “penultimate” in use so that the reading public can be reminded what it means.
I’m not trashing “penultimate”. I use the word. Sometimes I think it’s wise to remember that mocking with love is not only common and accepted in this world, but might just be the dominant form of humor for some people.
Cagtegories for words lthat the common rube misuses? Like inflammable and flammable? They aren’t actually synonyms–inflammable is more flammable than flammable.
Cagtegories? Like Jeopardy?
Words Used by the Anal?
Grammar Wisdom?
Properly Educated Vocabulary?
Irate about Irregardless?
Words Kevin James should avoid?
Wait, what?
I think I’m such a pedant that I don’t even understand the controversy behind either ‘penultimate’ or serial commas. As for The Oxford Comma, as best I can tell it’s a style choice. Some publications use it, some don’t. I’m a serial comma person, but aside from my teensy role in the blogosphere I rarely write more than emails and grocery lists. If I ever publish a book or write an op-ed in a newspaper, I will happily let their copy editor do whatever she wants with my commas. And penultimate? It just means second-to-last, right?
As long as we don’t bring up misuse of the word “literal”. Now there’s a word that needs to be bleached from the consciousness of about 90% of the anglophone population.
Kind of ironically, even though it’s a $1000 word, the clear majority of times I’ve heard the word used was to refer to the second-to-last episode of TV shows.
Cagtegories for words lthat the common rube misuses?
Yes, but who uses “Oxford comma” incorrectly?
I’ve never used “Oxford comma” when referring to a “serial comma.” There doesn’t seem to be any benefit to using one term over the other. By contrast, “penultimate” has a structural beauty that “second-to-last” doesn’t have.
Flanders and Swann used “antepenultimate” in Have Some Madeira, M’dear, but I think it was only for scansion.
And while we’re speaking of 1950s sexual sterotypes, get a load of this.
I hate to appear a pedant, but when you have thread about the Oxford comma and “penultimate,” it’s almost mandatory.
MissPrism wrote “Flanders and Swann used “antepenultimate” in Have Some Madeira, M’dear, but I think it was only for scansion.”
Not only for scansion. It’s also really funny to coin a word for “the second from last, or the one before the next to last.”
Great kudos to MssPrism for mentioning that song, it’s hilarious.
‘Whip-smart’ altogether aside…never thought even to ask? the question.
Here’s an example given from your first link.
What for me in the first example is just redundancy,
[I never use a comma WITH an and]
gives for the au fait, I think… a special category to the last in a list.
Assume that the penultimate paragraph is seen too as a special fillip
- or sort of lacking the extra comma - a simple final entry on or to…
a sequence of paragraphs.
Interesting question but the sort I’d never think to ask.
[But then I anyway always try to misspell that word as
pentultimate because without the t the word just feels ‘wussy’, so..]
has_te, am I getting too pedantic here or were those last three paragraphs in some obscurely metered verse?
MissPrism beat me, but for once let me post a “metoo”… without penultimate, how would we make “Have Some Madeira, M’Dear” scan?
The Oxford comma comes right after the penultimate comma, what’s the problem?
Oh, so that’s how you pronounce Madeira… Having taken Spanish long before I ever learned about port, sherry, or other dessert wines, I always thought the, er, PENULTIMATE syllable would be pronounced like “dare”, rather than “dear”. Especially considering that in Spanish it should be said more like ma-day-EAR-a. Not sure exactly what Portuguese does with that ‘ei’ blend, though. The English really know how to butcher a foreign word, don’t they?
Pedantry, oh how I love thee…
It’s beautifully written. Shame it’s about date rape.
I think my favourite F&S is “The Bedstead Men”.
I use penultimate regularly, but that’s because I like tight, concise copy.
As a copyeditor, I don’t care if my writers use a serial comma, an Oxford comma, or no comma after the last item in a list as long as they’re consistent throughout the article. Consistency is key. However, I personally prefer the Oxford comma, but that’s because I’m a prescriptive stick-in-the-mud.
The nuns taught me the Oxford comma and I’ve never been able to shake it.
I like and use the “Oxford Comma”, just because it seems to make more sense when I read a sentence containing a list of items.
But I’m not sure I have a right to an opinion of something that important.
After all, I didn’t think making a comment about guns and a certain presidential candidate - which also implies he’s a coward - was funny. At all.
And I’m no expert in obscure Greek phrases either. So take it for what it’s worth…
OT: huckabee’s comment
Huckabees comment was so…. insane. Who wouldn’t duck if a gun was pointed at them? Would the Huck just stand there and ‘take it like a man’?
Just proves (again) Obama is ‘WAYYYyyy smarter.
Flanders and Swann may have used “antepenultimate”, but they didn’t coin it. The word has long been in use in discussing Latin syllabic stress patterns.
And yes, that comma is where it is on purpose.
As a somewhat pedantic, albeit failed, English major I find myself taking a bit of umbrage at any criticism of some of my favorite terms but I’ll let it slide this time beacuse i just wanted to introduce another favorite term, ultrapenultimate, which I came across in my childhood in an obscure British dictionary but have not encountered since then, not even in the dictionaries I have consulted; it has the same meaning as antepenultimate, IIRC, but it somehow seems to have more of a flair. BTW, said term begs the question of whether the first of a trilogy, such as, say, the three Evil Dead films, could be called ultrapenultimate (antepenultimate, depending on one’s preference); perhaps I’m just splitting hairs here??
Uh, the category of grammar-related awesomeness?
OT, but it appears Teddy Kennedy has had a stroke. He’s in the hospital.
Surely not a’purpose.
Got mixed up with a buncha english majors…
shoulda knowed better.
[-Parenthetically and sub voce*-…he ’shamedly admitted
“…actually learned some neat stuff from this thread.”]
[And even that’s* used wrong …when I look it up
…I’m gonna go mow the lawn… I KNOW how to do that!]
I was slogging through some quacky health book recently, and the author referred to some historical personage as “the penultimate gambler.” I just about hurled.
Opoponax said:
Why limit the English to butchering foreign words? They
have had centuries of practice butchering their own language, starting with the Anglo Saxons (Old German mixed with a smattering of Celtic and Latin) butchering Norman French (a bastard mix of Latin, Frankish. and Norse). I think it was a subtle form of revenge. By who upon who I am unsure, but revenge it is.
But it’s true. Andrew Jackson was, in fact, the second to last gambler. Everyone knows that the last gambler was John C. Fremont. Duh.
I think it was a subtle form of revenge. By who upon who I am unsure, but revenge it is.
Perhaps, but they later turned their uncanny knack for language-murdering on their emperial conquests. It’s one thing to insist you will NEVER produce boeuf correctly, no way, no how, no matter what. It’s quite something else to change a perfectly good city name like Bengaluru into Bangalore because you simply refuse to talk to the inhabitants enough to figure out the right way to pronounce it.
It’s quite something else to change a perfectly good city name like Bengaluru into Bangalore because you simply refuse to talk to the inhabitants enough to figure out the right way to pronounce it.
Or, like the Spanish, you can use it as an excuse for intramural rivalry:
Interesting. I’ve always wondered about the intricacies of communicating in a ‘first contact’ situation. There was no way that any European, no matter how well-intentioned, could have had the slightest clue about American (or Australian) languages, because they weren’t closely related to any language they could already have been exposed to, and it’s not like they knew other groups with trade connections or shared cultural roots.
I’ve always considered, however, that the Europeans colonizing Asia and Africa had no excuse not to learn local languages and get spellings and pronunciation right (or to even bother to learn the name locals had for a place and stick with it, rather than just being all “I name this village Leopoldville!”), because there were various kinds of contact with those groups for millennia. Not to mention groups like Jewish and Muslim traders who had close contact with more isolated peoples, and which the colonizers could already talk to.
Off topic. Colonialism bad. Whitey stupid. Groceries needed. Me go away now.
Flanders and Swann may have used “antepenultimate”, but they didn’t coin it. The word has long been in use in discussing Latin syllabic stress patterns.
Not just Latin! “Antepenult”, and inflections thereof, are a basic part of modern linguistic vocabulary.
@the opoponax: ObPratchett - “Your finger, you fool“
Reminds me: Wasn’t McCain the penultimate student in his class at Annapolis? Is he really dumber than W. was at Yale? Why can’t the Republicans come up with a candidate with a GPA above 2.00?
gives for the au fait, I think
Wasn’t “au fait” obsolete slang for honky?
Ooops - lost the attribution line there - that’s a Liz Phair song, irregardless of the conversation about mission critical words prioritized by their normalcy.
I love “Have Some Madeira, M’Dear” for the zeugma. The word “antepenultimate” is just kind of a bonus.
I try to avoid thinking about the subject of the song too much.
Although I can’t recall them immediately, I knew of some instances in which not using the serial comma created ambiguity in the sentence, so I always use it. I also read that the serial comma was always used until printers began setting type. The serial comma was then dropped from printed materials so that the printers would not run out of commas, which I am told is the same reason printers substituted “ff” for “ss” in words like “Congress”. Because there is no longer any danger of running short of commas, I can see no reason to not use it.
If anyone is in danger of running out of commas, I have some extras, so you can have these:
…………………………………………….
…………………………………………….
…………………………………………….
…………………………………………….
One could also coin the word “preantepenultimate” (fourth from last).
and here I thought “penultimate” would be the perfect moniker for a fine writing goods store
I believe the category you are looking for is: “Little jewels correctly used only by people who properly understand and appreciate the language.”
HTH
PS:
a) yes, I’m both a pedant and a grammar snob. Bite me.
b) captchas is hard
The word “penultimate” belongs in the same category as the Oxford comma. What that category is, however, is out of my mental reach. Help from the whip-smart Pandagonians?
“Cryptovernacular”
Why limit the English to butchering foreign words? They have had centuries of practice butchering their own language, starting with the Anglo Saxons (Old German mixed with a smattering of Celtic and Latin) butchering Norman French (a bastard mix of Latin, Frankish. and Norse). I think it was a subtle form of revenge. By who upon who I am unsure, but revenge it is
“The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don’t just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.” - James D. Nicoll
Look, I mean, here’s the thing.
The English say the word “urinal” with an “eye” in it. You’re eye nal.
They ain’t right in the vocal chords (the wernicke’s area?). That’s alls I’m sayin’.
hey opopo, it’s not so much “whitey stupid” as “whitey MEAN”. Mean little shits who beat the crap out of the natives and then named their towns “Leopoldville”
Power corrupting and all
Oh, not only do I always use all the commas, I also use 2 spaces after a period. What’s up with the single space after a period anyway?
And I only start sentences with conjunctions when I’m e-typing. Same with fragments.
I do tend to use the optional “that” every time, but that’s cause I took French, and “that” is never optional there.
“Oh, not only do I always use all the commas, I also use 2 spaces after a period. What’s up with the single space after a period anyway?”
I use two spaces too, but for most of my work it’s a useless gesture.
HTML gets rendered in browsers with only one space, no matter how many spaces you put in originally. The only way to bypass that is to use the “non-breaking space” tag ( ), which when used in the wrong place can cause other problems like weird line breaks.
As I recall, recent versions of MS Word will “correct” two spaces after a period to one space, unless you disable that auto-correction.
We’re living in a one-space-between-sentences world, whether we like it or not…
My favorite use of that word is the title of Philip Dick’s after-nuclear-war novel The Penultimate Truth.
“You think,” Nicholas said, “that the biggest lie is still to come?”
After a long, visibly tormented pause Adams said, “Yes.”
“They can’t just tell the truth?”
“The what? Listen, Nick; whoever they are, whatever combination out of all the possible crazy bedfellow conniving, double-dealing deals and deal-outs, whatever group or person has gotten its paws, temporarily anyhow, on the winning cards, after his long day of– whatever took place; they have a job, Nick: they have the job, now. Of explaining away an entire planet of green, neatly trimmed, leady-gardener cared-for park. _This is it_. And not just satisfactorily explaining it to you or me or a couple of ex-tankers here or there but to hundreds and hundreds of millions of hostile, really furious skeptics who are going to scrutinize every single word that ever issues out of a TV set–by anybody!–from this moment forever into the future. Would you like that job, Nick? Just exactly how well would you like to have to do that?”
“I wouldn’t,” Nicholas said.
Adams said, “I would.”…
“I know,” Adams said quietly, “that we can come up with something.”
Nicholas said, “I know you can, too.” Except for that one thing, he said to himself, and put his arm around his wife to draw her closer.
You’re not going to.
Because we will not allow you.
Hm. You know, I think I misinterpreted this the original post. The term “Oxford comma” is certainly a dying term, being replaced by “serial comma”, in the way that the word “penultimate” is disappearing and replaced by “second-to-last” or being redefined-due-to-repeated-misuse, like “infer” and “beg the question.” However, the use of the Oxford comma is alive and well, because it’s taught as standard in schools. At least, I was.
When I entered 9th grade, all of us were given a copy of Stunk & White, and it was expected that this was the style book we would adhere to throughout high school. They support the use of the serial/Oxford comma.
The word “penultimate” belongs in the same category as the Oxford comma. What that category is, however, is out of my mental reach. Help from the whip-smart Pandagonians?
superfluous?
I regularly use the serial comma. I think it makes a text clearer.
As to “penultimate”, where is the problem? It is a clearly defined word. Why not eliminate “former” and “latter” in referring to a list of two things then? In this case, “former” simply means “penultimate”.
Would it be more elegant to say “the penultimate” and “the ultimate”?
Ooh, I like the idea of widespread use of “penultimately” as adverb of choice. It seems approrpiate when listing to-do chores.
Interestingly enough, while in Cluj-Napoca, Romania yesterday, I was listening to the bus station guy descirbe which stop was the airport stop and he used the word “penultimata” and I could say to my friend, second to last stop? And she was shocked that I had understood that… I love cognitives…
In the future, the word “penultimate” will be forgotten. Witness the GCU Ultimate Ship The Second…
I just want to say how anxious I am to see the next comment.
Flanders and Swann may have used “antepenultimate”, but they didn’t coin it. The word has long been in use in discussing Latin syllabic stress patterns.
Not just Latin! “Antepenult”, and inflections thereof, are a basic part of modern linguistic vocabulary.
Well, sure, but the use of the word in Greek and Latin prosody predates modern linguistics by a good bit
Which category? Hm.
Pedantic? Archaic? Pretentious? Technical?
As for butchering foreign words, thank Gitmo that practice has ceased.