Comments on: 98% of women are just flattering themselves http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/15/7216/ Just another WordPress weblog Mon, 09 Nov 2009 15:17:32 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=1.5.1-alpha by: Mel http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/15/7216/#comment-517266 Tue, 20 May 2008 16:24:46 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/15/7216/#comment-517266 I agree that catcalling is about vulnerability and getting a reaction, not about age or attractiveness. I'm only 23, thin, and pretty (although not to society's standard, since I have short hair and small breasts), and I can't actually remember ever being catcalled. Maybe once. And I think it's because my body language is confident and non-reactive (I DO get the "Smile!" crap fairly frequently). I also don't typically get hit on (a friend once told me i give off hostile don't-hit-on-me vibes, which I wish I could figure out how to turn on and off at will). I just don't look entertaining anymore--I was easy to provoke to tears when I was a kid, but the mockery then wasn't sexually oriented, more along the lines of spitting in my hair)--martial arts completely changed how I carry myself. I'm not saying this to suggest it's our responsibility as women to not look vulnerable, just to agree that catcalling has nothing to do with age or attractiveness. I agree that catcalling is about vulnerability and getting a reaction, not about age or attractiveness. I’m only 23, thin, and pretty (although not to society’s standard, since I have short hair and small breasts), and I can’t actually remember ever being catcalled. Maybe once. And I think it’s because my body language is confident and non-reactive (I DO get the “Smile!” crap fairly frequently). I also don’t typically get hit on (a friend once told me i give off hostile don’t-hit-on-me vibes, which I wish I could figure out how to turn on and off at will).

I just don’t look entertaining anymore–I was easy to provoke to tears when I was a kid, but the mockery then wasn’t sexually oriented, more along the lines of spitting in my hair)–martial arts completely changed how I carry myself.

I’m not saying this to suggest it’s our responsibility as women to not look vulnerable, just to agree that catcalling has nothing to do with age or attractiveness.

]]> by: paramatrizer http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/15/7216/#comment-517257 Tue, 20 May 2008 16:07:17 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/15/7216/#comment-517257 Cassie, I guess I always considered that mildly annoying, not harassment. I am not 100% against all verbal interactions with strangers, in fact, I often enjoy them. I feel like there are friendly interactions, and there are ill intended interactions, and (for me personally) "hey, it's a nice day, smile!" goes into the friendly, if somewhat annoying, category. It obviously comes from a sexist place, but that by itself doesn't make it harassment. The kind of remarks that I often hear others reporting are clearly not just well intended attempts at friendliness gone awry, they are assertions of dominance, meant to make the recipient uncomfortable. Anyway, I can certainly see how "smile!" from a stranger could be bothersome, or worse, to someone; however, it has never made me uncomfortable, nor have I felt that it was intended to make me uncomfortable. I feel that I would minimize others' experiences of street harassment by classifying it as such. Cassie, I guess I always considered that mildly annoying, not harassment. I am not 100% against all verbal interactions with strangers, in fact, I often enjoy them. I feel like there are friendly interactions, and there are ill intended interactions, and (for me personally) “hey, it’s a nice day, smile!” goes into the friendly, if somewhat annoying, category. It obviously comes from a sexist place, but that by itself doesn’t make it harassment. The kind of remarks that I often hear others reporting are clearly not just well intended attempts at friendliness gone awry, they are assertions of dominance, meant to make the recipient uncomfortable.
Anyway, I can certainly see how “smile!” from a stranger could be bothersome, or worse, to someone; however, it has never made me uncomfortable, nor have I felt that it was intended to make me uncomfortable. I feel that I would minimize others’ experiences of street harassment by classifying it as such.

]]> by: Samantha Vimes http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/15/7216/#comment-517070 Tue, 20 May 2008 04:07:59 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/15/7216/#comment-517070 I think for some women, the "It's really a compliment" thing is a way to avoid feeling humiliated, embarrassed, or afraid. Hostility is an upsetting thing. It *is* better to face reality, because you then aren't as shocked and unready for those times when the hostility becomes unignorable. I think for some women, the “It’s really a compliment” thing is a way to avoid feeling humiliated, embarrassed, or afraid. Hostility is an upsetting thing. It *is* better to face reality, because you then aren’t as shocked and unready for those times when the hostility becomes unignorable.

]]> by: Cassie http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/15/7216/#comment-516967 Mon, 19 May 2008 13:17:39 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/15/7216/#comment-516967 Err paramatrizer? getting "commanded to smile" is part of catcalling. Err paramatrizer?

getting “commanded to smile” is part of catcalling.

]]> by: chingona http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/15/7216/#comment-516962 Mon, 19 May 2008 12:22:10 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/15/7216/#comment-516962 As far as third world traveling goes, the key thing, in my personal experience, is just not being friendly to men. Not even the sort of neutral, shared public space friendly that you would be out of common courtesy in the U.S. Between the stereotype of Western women as perpetually available sexually and the different cultural cues between men and women, being friendly to men can make things a lot worse, particularly the really directed, persistent, personal harrassment that can be really scary. And the flip side of that is whenever possible, seek out the company of women. Too often, Western women feel so constrained when they visit or live in countries with much more blatant patriarchal social systems, but there is this whole world that is open to us that foreign men will never get to experience. As far as third world traveling goes, the key thing, in my personal experience, is just not being friendly to men. Not even the sort of neutral, shared public space friendly that you would be out of common courtesy in the U.S. Between the stereotype of Western women as perpetually available sexually and the different cultural cues between men and women, being friendly to men can make things a lot worse, particularly the really directed, persistent, personal harrassment that can be really scary. And the flip side of that is whenever possible, seek out the company of women. Too often, Western women feel so constrained when they visit or live in countries with much more blatant patriarchal social systems, but there is this whole world that is open to us that foreign men will never get to experience.

]]> by: paramatrizer http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/15/7216/#comment-516874 Sun, 18 May 2008 18:20:17 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/15/7216/#comment-516874 Hey, UIP and Nicole, I'm a Bostonian too, and I NEVER get catcalled. Pretty much every time a discussion of catcalling comes up, someone mentions that it happens to <i>every</i> woman, and I think to myself, "wow, I must be absolutely inhumanly hideous, then." So, maybe I am. Or maybe it's because I look like a 14 year old boy, not a 22 year old woman. Or maybe my face is permanently scowling -- I do get commanded to smile from time to time. But maybe it's just a Boston thing? Hey, UIP and Nicole, I’m a Bostonian too, and I NEVER get catcalled. Pretty much every time a discussion of catcalling comes up, someone mentions that it happens to every woman, and I think to myself, “wow, I must be absolutely inhumanly hideous, then.”
So, maybe I am. Or maybe it’s because I look like a 14 year old boy, not a 22 year old woman. Or maybe my face is permanently scowling — I do get commanded to smile from time to time. But maybe it’s just a Boston thing?

]]> by: paramatrizer http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/15/7216/#comment-516873 Sun, 18 May 2008 18:19:10 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/15/7216/#comment-516873 Hey, UIP and Nicole, I'm a Bostonian too, and I NEVER get catcalled. Pretty much every time a discussion of catcalling comes up, someone mentions that it happens to <i>every</i> woman, and I think to myself, "wow, I must be absolutely inhumanly hideous, then." So, maybe I am. Or maybe it's because I look like a 14 year old boy, not a 22 year old woman. Or maybe my face is permanently scowling -- I do get commanded to smile from time to time. But maybe it's just a Boston thing? Hey, UIP and Nicole, I’m a Bostonian too, and I NEVER get catcalled. Pretty much every time a discussion of catcalling comes up, someone mentions that it happens to every woman, and I think to myself, “wow, I must be absolutely inhumanly hideous, then.”
So, maybe I am. Or maybe it’s because I look like a 14 year old boy, not a 22 year old woman. Or maybe my face is permanently scowling — I do get commanded to smile from time to time. But maybe it’s just a Boston thing?

]]> by: Mickle http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/15/7216/#comment-516795 Sun, 18 May 2008 02:40:19 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/15/7216/#comment-516795 Punditus Maximus You do realize that we "obsess" over our appearance because <i>everyone else</i> - such as, oh say catcalling assholes - is constantly reminding us of how important it is, right? And that the difference in responses is because random men don't yell out comments about men's appearance as they are walking. (Having men yell at you from their cars from the time you hit puberty at age nine tends to make one a bit self-conscious when people yell out anything to you as you are walking, no matter the reason.) Neither do men get told by their supervisors that they are dressing too much like a slut for work. (In less sue-worthy language, of course). Everyone is judged by their appearance, but women are judged much more harshly for stepping out of line, and have a thinner line to tread at that. So, yeah, I suppose one could say that we are "obsessed" about our appearance. One could also make the argument that catcalls are compliments. They are both stupid statements. Punditus Maximus

You do realize that we “obsess” over our appearance because everyone else - such as, oh say catcalling assholes - is constantly reminding us of how important it is, right? And that the difference in responses is because random men don’t yell out comments about men’s appearance as they are walking. (Having men yell at you from their cars from the time you hit puberty at age nine tends to make one a bit self-conscious when people yell out anything to you as you are walking, no matter the reason.) Neither do men get told by their supervisors that they are dressing too much like a slut for work. (In less sue-worthy language, of course).

Everyone is judged by their appearance, but women are judged much more harshly for stepping out of line, and have a thinner line to tread at that.

So, yeah, I suppose one could say that we are “obsessed” about our appearance. One could also make the argument that catcalls are compliments. They are both stupid statements.

]]> by: denelian http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/15/7216/#comment-516790 Sun, 18 May 2008 01:47:39 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/15/7216/#comment-516790 so, i have to use cane to walk pretty often. this is a new thing (and, i really hope, a temporary thing) when i use the cane, i never NEVER get catcalled. when i can walk without it... invariably, something... a shout, a grope, a random guy demanding my phone number... and i am not "hot" - i am 50lbs overweight! so, i have to use cane to walk pretty often. this is a new thing (and, i really hope, a temporary thing)

when i use the cane, i never NEVER get catcalled.

when i can walk without it… invariably, something… a shout, a grope, a random guy demanding my phone number…

and i am not “hot” - i am 50lbs overweight!

]]> by: the opoponax http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/15/7216/#comment-516731 Sat, 17 May 2008 15:42:41 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/15/7216/#comment-516731 <i>“Ooh, you should wear a wedding ring!”</i> Bleh. I will admit that, while traveling alone, I had to use a hypothetical husband exactly ONCE to deflect a potentially unsafe situation -- I was being scammed by a rickshaw driver outside a train station late at night, so I alluded to a "friend" I was meeting at a certain hotel (thus needed to go there whether it was "full" or not), when suddenly the creep factor started really pouring out: "Ah, your friend, madam? You are going to meet your LOVVVVERRRRRR? [said in the most icky way possible]" My response, "No, my HUSBAND! I'm going to meet my HUSBAND!" Creepitude immediately dissolved into thin air. Hint for perspective solo travelers: most non-western countries don't use wedding rings. There are days I contemplate writing a serious and down to earth solo woman travel book from a genuinely feminist perspective, debunking all the stupid "wear a wedding ring!" crap... “Ooh, you should wear a wedding ring!”

Bleh.

I will admit that, while traveling alone, I had to use a hypothetical husband exactly ONCE to deflect a potentially unsafe situation — I was being scammed by a rickshaw driver outside a train station late at night, so I alluded to a “friend” I was meeting at a certain hotel (thus needed to go there whether it was “full” or not), when suddenly the creep factor started really pouring out: “Ah, your friend, madam? You are going to meet your LOVVVVERRRRRR? [said in the most icky way possible]” My response, “No, my HUSBAND! I’m going to meet my HUSBAND!” Creepitude immediately dissolved into thin air.

Hint for perspective solo travelers: most non-western countries don’t use wedding rings.

There are days I contemplate writing a serious and down to earth solo woman travel book from a genuinely feminist perspective, debunking all the stupid “wear a wedding ring!” crap…

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