Wow, this headline reads like something in the Reader’s Digest circa 1970, wedged between articles on why kids don’t appreciate waltzing anymore and how smoking marijuana cigarettes will cause your daughter to become a streetwalker: “Catcalling: creepy or a compliment?” (Via.) The article isn’t nearly so bad, and gives full voice to women who grasp that a man yelling sexual (and insulting or threatening) things at you on the sidewalk is insulting you for being a woman, not complimenting you.
But just like those articles of old from Schlaflyites (”I love getting hooted at on the street, and husbands have a right to rape wives!”), this one is full of women the reader is supposed to take cues from on how to be less of a grumpus pain in the ass who thinks she has dignity worth defending.
On the other hand, some women appreciate the attention in certain cases, like Jessica, a 31-year-old health-care educator in Los Angeles who declined to use her last name to protect her privacy.
“Yeah, it’s objectifying and all, but you know, if I walked down the street and didn’t have men looking me up and down and catcalling, I’d think, ‘Boy, I must really be getting old and dumpy,’ ” she said.
She’s gotten catcalls just walking her parents’ dog in baggy sweats. “I thought it was hysterical, like, ‘Boy, doesn’t take much to impress you, does it?’ “
It’s true that they’ll do it to you no matter what you’re wearing, because it’s not a compliment. I can understand why this woman is deluding herself—it’s both flattering to imagine you’re so hot men are inspired to passion by the mere site of you and it also helps protect the brain from realizing how many men out there just really hate you—but I’m sure she’s not unaware of those times when the cat-calling occurs when there are no other people around and you find yourself grabbing for a weapon or your cell phone. Because it’s a threat in many cases, or at bare minimum a reminder to random women that the cat-caller feels entitled to control their experience of being outside the house.
The thing about conflating cat-calling or other forms of domination with male sexual desire is that this is a gross insult to men who can tell the difference between “I’d like to see her smiling at me with pleasure” and “I’d like to see her crying in fear of my mighty manhood that needs constant reinforcing”.
The article notes that 98% of the women surveyed had been cat-called at some point, and 30% report that it’s a common thing. (It is for me, because I spend a lot of time out and about.) Since we know that 99.99% of women bitching about being sexually harassed or assaulted is bitches just trying to get at men with their lies, we can conclude from this survey that 98% of women are man-hating liars.
Or that’s what I learned from this thread at Huffington Post about this incident involving a 16-year-old who put together an only half-intelligible video about being raped and not having the prosecutor press charges for the rape, a perfectly plausible scenario, especially considering the girl’s very real distress on the video. Of course, second comment in people are griping about how it’s all lies and an act—seriously, the way some men act in the comments on stories like this, you’d think they collectively raped the various victims who are being accused of lying. Some hide behind a concern for the right to be considered innocent until proven guilty (in court, you morons—private citizens are allowed their opinions), but interestingly they have no problem judging a woman guilty of false accusations. Accusing someone of lying about being the victim of a crime is a serious accusation, and by their own measure they shouldn’t be making it.
I wonder if these same people, if there was a post on Huffington Post about someone getting mugged, would hotly be saying, “Well, if it’s true,” and “Shouldn’t that be alleged mugging victim?”
110 Responses to “98% of women are just flattering themselves”
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There was a good article on cat calling last summer in the Washington City Paper. For what it’s worth, some of it is acceptable in the catcallers’ home cultures.
http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/display.php?id=1859
you’ve hit the nail right on the head. I’ve thought about the the “alleged” rape victim, versus the mugging victim, a few times. I think it’s strange that people can’t see their own hypocrisy, in accepting any allegations, save rape. oh, and you know: it’s the only crime a woman lies about, and it happens all the time. the lying by women, obviously.
Again, I can’t help but wonder why macho masculinity is so dainty and fragile that it must be protected at all costs. Even a woman sitting along at a bus stop is an imminent threat to it.
Hector B. -given the frequency with which it happens, I’d say it’s acceptable in the U.S. Doesn’t mean that women anywhere actually like it, just means they’re expected to put up with it.
“For what it’s worth, some of it is acceptable in the catcallers’ home cultures.”
As opposed to our own culture, where catcallers are chased down and beaten with shoes by any bystanders within earshot in a show of solidarity against the practice?
It’s not enthusiastically and publicly embraced as a pastime by much of the population, but the biggest nod I’ve seen (to date) to it being Not Okay is a nigh-universal denial of ever having been the Hooting/Honking Motorist.
Oh, and along the lines of “Real Poor People don’t have TVs”, there are some comments saying she is too clean to be poor. Gah. I’ve been poor enough to have the school lunch comped and you know what, I still bathed every day. Big shocker, I know.
like Jessica, a 31-year-old health-care educator in Los Angeles who declined to use her last name to protect her privacy.
This is great. Privacy? Privacy from what, the feminist ninja assassins who kill all women who admit to liking something deemed “objectifying”?
My favorites are the guys who get mad when you ignore them, like the one who followed up his initially mild comment, with increasingly loud “Hey, I’m talking to you. I’m talking to you. Hey, you. Hey, I’m talking to you, you fucking stuck-up bitch. What? Your parents didn’t teach you any manners?” And so on.
Bitch PhD posted on this and an interesting discussion started up in comments about how young this starts. Most of the women (myself included) first started to get harassed around 11 or 12. It helps put the lie to the notion that this is about sexual desire and bolsters the argument that it’s about keeping women in their place. It’s part of our social training.
Correction: It was M. LeBlanc who filed the post. It’s at Bitch PhD.
Chingona - I totally agree about the follow-up yellers. The ones I get all wait till I’ve just passed them to even say anything, so it’s awkward to stop even if I wanted to and I’m not even sure if they’re talking to me. Then they start sceaming - they couldn’t make it more clear that all they want is to be able to be hateful to a woman.
I expect to see some of the Amanda-stalkers showing up in the comments claiming that she’s “just jealous” that no one “whistles at her suggestively” or some such bullshit. Can’t wait!
Ah, behold the *cognitive dissonance within a patriarchal society’s notion of masculinity (*or, would that be a paradox?). Masculinity…so powerful, so strong, so invincible, that it can’t protect itself from any threat (real or perceived) by the Vagina-Possessing Menance.
Cue some misogynist punkshit:“B-b-but my girlfriend/wife/female-friend/secretary/female-coworker/one-night-stand/that-chick-I-just-hollared-at said she thinks catcalls are a compliment! So it must be true for ALL chicks! And if some broad doesn’t like it, then she’s just some ugly, politically correct-cunt on the rag!”
Are they hiring?! Seriously, I just finished college and I need a job!
This isn’t exactly street harassment, but I had an exchange the other day that is still on my mind. One of my periodic chores at work (yay being the least senior person in my department!) is to deal with our ever-growing mounds of recycling. Once every couple months I grab a hand truck, and pile it up with recycling which gets emptied in the big recycling dumpster down the block. Since I do this pretty often I have a system, and I know my system works.
So I’m somewhat awkwardly wheeling the hand truck down the sidewalk and pass a guy loitering around on the street. He looks me up and down and says, “that would be easier if you pulled that instead.” As if I must be so brain-addled I don’t know the best way to do what I’m doing.
What gives? I would bet money this guy wouldn’t tell another man how to do a mundane physical task like this. It struck me as being in the same category as the thing where a man stops you on the street and tells you to smile. Or was I just being an ass and this guy was genuinely trying to help?
Bah. Sorry, just wanted to vent.
And accusing someone of the crime of rape is just an expression of opinion from a private citizen? Really Amanda?
Do I hear the pitter-patter of little troll feet?…
Hector B.: “Home cultures,” my ass. Cultural differences are the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Cultural differences are the last refuge of a scoundrel.
I don’t think any street harasser should get a pass because that’s how they did it back home. They’re in America now.
I’ve always wondered what would happen if a woman ever came on to the guys who were yelling at her. They’d probably freak the fuck out & have nothing to say, they’d be so scared.
If the only people who ever did this to me were from a common cultural background, sure.
Seriously, men of every race, ethnicity, religion, culture, and nationality (which I have been exposed to, of course) have cat-called me. Actually, except for Muslims. Never been cat-called by a Muslim as far as I can recall. Or a Japanese guy. Shit. OK, cracks are forming in this story. But anyway. My point stands. Men do this all over the world, and men of all cultures do it here in America. Including American born white Christian dudes.
It’s not a matter of it being acceptable in some cultures.
“I don’t think any street harasser should get a pass because that’s how they did it back home. They’re in America now.”
Yeah! They BETTER damn well speak English when they harass our women!…
:)
This is pretty much true - I’ve tried talking to other men about rape, and so many are concerned that some woman they might have coerced into having sex with them might claim that they were raped that they will defend any accused man at the drop of a hat. about a year ago, I got into a huge argument with a guy who didn’t see rape as a crime against women, but as a betrayal of the male duty to protect women. *I almost smacked him*.
Anyway, very good post. Thanks
so many are concerned that some woman they might have coerced into having sex with them might claim that they were raped that they will defend any accused man at the drop of a hat.
Either that or they go way out of their way to issue a creepily “doth protest too much” statement about how HORRIBLE that is, and if a woman they knew was raped, they would beat the guy senseless, etc. etc. etc.
Opoponax,
I used to be a delivery driver, so I know all about the various ways to load a handcart, how sometimes it’s easier to push, sometimes it’s easier to pull, some loads need constant holding by the free hand, and how unhelpful it is to get advice from well-meaning people who don’t know just how wrong they are. It doesn’t matter if you’re young and strong, old and feeble-looking, man, woman, or undecided: there will be someone who watches you move something who will be convinced that they can help you.
As for culture and catcalling: the culture that thinks this is acceptable is doofus culture. As a man who has (as part of my job) visited a women’s prison, I have seen that bold agression certainly makes an impact. Of course, singling yourself out as desperate, sleazy, and a bit of a doofus isn’t the best way to pursue a sexual relationship.
And as a man who has been part of a group of men who catcalled (not me personally, others in the group did it) I felt like curling into myself when I saw the reaction of the women. For better or worse, and usually it’s worse, I’ve always thought it best to make my own stupid attempts to get women’s attention. And whistling and yelling “Nice tits!” has never been part of that.
men of all cultures do it here in America. Including American born white Christian dudes.
I’m pretty sure the ABWCD knows he’s being, at the very least, a giant asshole. I mean that is how I was raised.
if I walked down the street and didn’t have men looking me up and down and catcalling, I’d think, ‘Boy, I must really be getting old and dumpy
OK, I just had one of those “click” moments the 2nd wavers talk about.
This (above) is the exact purpose of street harassment. To remind women to be constantly obsessed with our appearance and/or level of attractiveness to men. To keep it always on our minds. And to remind us that we never dress for ourselves, it is ALWAYS for them. No matter how much we thought we just wanted to feel pretty.
I mean, if I wasn’t constantly harassed by men on the street, how would I know I should be concerned about whether I’m fat, old, ugly, dowdy, etc?
Think especially of how often women say they get harassed while looking grubby. I don’t think it’s supposed to mean, “wow, I’m hot without even trying!”, it’s supposed to remind us that we’re shirking our womanly duty. I don’t know any women who think, “you know, I got so many positive comments from strange men when I went out in dirty sweats that I decided to just stop with all the hair and makeup and shaving. I mean, obviously I’m so sexy it doesn’t matter what I do…”
I got my first one earlier this week–and here I’d thought maybe I was cat-call proof or super-awesome-lucky or something. And yeah, has absolutely positively nothing to do with appearance. I was riding my bike home (excited! I’d just turned in a final!), wearing wrinkled baggy khakis, bookbag, helmet, and a sweater two sizes too big. I.e. no kind of figure, hair, anything showing. So this guy leans out the passenger window of a car driving by (white, college-y aged if you’re counting), yells “work it girl!” Kind of a weird thing to say, actually. Kind of ruined my mood. Apparently you can’t fucking ride home without being on display? Memo to dumb guy: I was riding my bike because the weather was nice and I like my bike, not because I want creepy jackasses yelling shit at me.
I flipped him off, wasn’t sure what else to do. I kind of wanted to ride up to the next stoplight and punch him, but I figured that would end up being a bad idea. . .
Since I started at a new high school with glasses and headgear(!) and never lost the unpopular rep even years after stratight teeth and contact lenses, I was thrilled in college when I got catcalled on a daily basis.
Actually, it was this frat house I had to walk by everyday to get to class. And they had this rating system where they would actually hold up cards (1-10) at hoot and holler. Wow! I’d get 8 or 9 or wear a miniskirt and its a 10! How Terrific! My life is fulfilled!
Until one day when this girl several feet in front of me got a 1. She was heavy, and she got merciless cat calls about going back to the farm. For a split second, I thought it was me that they were reacting too and I felt like total shit. And then I saw that it was her and I saw her speed up with her head down, shoulders slumped.
That made me realize how fucked up in the head it was for me to be happy one second and shamed the next by these guys. And being “scored high” was just the hideous flipside of the same shitty system that scored low, and these guys were exactly the same guys who made fun of me in highschool. From the next day on, I went way out of my way to never walk in front of this frat house again.
So, I wonder if these women who find these catcalls “compliments” if they are just very, very young. Or can’t see any way beyond being owned by that patriarchal fuckability quotient they’ve got going (even if they don’t say it out loud.) I think saying you like it has to be one of those, “if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em” things.
Oh, and I was describing my attire not for the ‘zomg i’m so hot even in ugly clothes’ effect, but in case someone needs further evidence that it has nothing whatsoever to do with ‘asking for it.’
Oh, the other thing I was going to say was this: Now that I’m 38, popped out a couple of kids and only rarely wear miniskirts, I rarely get cat calls. And at first glance it may seem like that is because I am older and no longer “10 worthy”. But I really do think it isn’t that much about looks, I think they tend to prey on younger girls because of the aforementioned inexperience and confusion in dealing with cat calls. They can still make the younger girls squirm uncomfortably. Older women (even very, very attractive ones as I have heard from friends) get less cat calls because they just don’t take the bait anymore.
I think women who look like “moms”, or look middle aged and thus obviously old enough to have been mothers for a great many years even if they don’t actually have any children, aren’t subject to it as much because they’ve officially passed from being public sexual property to public reproductive/childrearing property.
Think of all the stories recently-pregnant women tell about people wanting to touch their bellies and shit. It’s probably less than a decade from “dayummmm, bitch, tha’s a fine ass!” to “oh, how sweet! I want to feel the baby kick!” to the silent assumption that you are someone else’s property now and thus not to be approached.
Opopanax:
yeah, you are probably right in regards to moms/older women receiving less cat calls. I probably give myself too much credit for being perceived as a woman with enough agency to not be able to be controlled by men. (And yes, that is sarcastic, but not towards you, Opopanax, towards the patriarchy in general.)
What I love is the one I would occasionally get when I lived in LA. Bear in mind I was 53 and doing my cardio-power-walks.
This is around 7:30 in the morning. I was fast walking up a street when I noticed a gaggle of skeezed out black guys sucking on the bottle in the bag started their “Hey baby, I think I’m in love” crappolla. Now never mind I’m old enough to be their mother’s mother but I’m like thinking. Yeah I have nothing better to do than go be your bitch and whore on the corner for you after you’ve given me a lethal VD.
But discretion is the better part of valor and I would hate to have to use my not supposed to carry Smith Chief’s Special so I ignore them.
Apparently as far as they are concerned a real woman couldn’t possibly ignore their dubious charms and they decide. Fuck you you goddamn ugly cunt you must be a man.
I kept on truckin’ and thinking “Man… Am I glad y’all didn’t come after me.”
Some women carry. I now live where I have a CFL. Concealed Firearms License
That wasn’t so much for you, Leora, but a general response to something that often comes up in discussions about street harassment, which is that obvious mothers and women who are middle aged and older don’t get it as much. This is often used to show that clearly it is all about how beautiful and young the women are, and these guys are obviously just trying to flatter them.
I think there’s something to the idea that younger women get more attention because they’re more impressionable or in more danger of getting too many “ideas”, i.e. a sense of self-worth.
Lessee … fat … bitch … dyke …”you ought to be careful” … “ugly”… BINGO
I’ve actually said 4 of those and informed the asshat involved that all he needs to say is “dyke” and I’ll get BINGO.
Great fun that. Seems that guys amp it up when they can’t intimidate you, and then run and hide because they think you might be packing if you level a cold glance at them and make a smart remark. (typically happens when some jerk can’t handle having to yield right of way to a middle aged woman on a bike or can’t deal with the idea of one person - one seat on a crowded bus or train).
the opoponax:
While I agree with jon that some tasks done in public invite everyone to give you advice, I know I get more advice as a woman than a similarly-situated man.
For example, I can’t count how many times a man has tried to help me parallel park in front of my own house. I’ve been doing it for longer than you’ve been out of diapers, I have the “backing-up gene,” and yes, as a matter of fact, I can rotate 3-D objects in space, so your godlike driving knowledge will not be required of you at this time.
I think Leora’s comments inform this situation, where she says:
Because that means squirming physically, too. Telling a woman how to do anything physical means she is moving her body for him. He can direct her. Cue a billion stupid fantasies about tricking dumb or drunk women into revealing their bodies or saying “smutty” things.
Women are much less likely to fall for those kinds of games than young girls.
And wow does that give me ugly flashbacks to when I was a young teen and didn’t realize what some of the pervs out there were saying to me and asking me to do.
Thinking back on the times since puberty when I have been free from catcalls, both were times where my body was essentially “claimed.” One was in the Peace Corps - but only in my village. Everyone knew I was married, and they didn’t mess with married women - not out of respect for them but out of respect for their husbands. The other time was when I was pregnant. Being pregnant, your body is officially Not Hot, but you can’t be insulted for daring to be Not Hot in public the way a fat woman would because your body is a sacred temple of life or something. Also, you are presumed to be spoken for, if not by a man than in your reproductive capacity.
But I don’t think Leora is completely wrong that some of it comes from increased confidence or a change in how you carry yourself. Over the years, I’ve reached a point where my face, when I’m walking down the street, is very closed. There is no space for an opening, to catch my eye or anything, even a neutral, friendly nod. And I really do think that reduces it. Men that catcall need you to react. Even your ignoring them is a form of reacting, unfortunately. But if you simply don’t see them, they do lose a little bit of power over you and they may seek other targets. This, obviously, doesn’t work all the time. But when I’m catcalled now, it’s usually either from a car (where catching your eye is irrelevant) or when I’m walking on a largely deserted street or sidewalk with plenty of time for me to see them and them to see me coming. This, too, changes the dynamic because my ignoring them becomes too obvious - it’s not that I actually don’t see them but that I’m acting like I don’t see them - and at that point they’ve already won and they might as well rub it in with a few comments.
Or maybe I’m just getting old and dumpy.
re: the idea that older women don’t get catcalled as much because they’re assumed to be claimed -
are you all familiar with Chris Rock’s response to the whole Janet Jackson at the Superbowl faux scandal? he was grossed out that he had to see a 40-year-old woman’s breast. or, as he put it, “20 year old titty = community titty. 40 year old titty = your man’s titty.” I used to love him, but that made me want to reach through the TV and beat him senseless.
re JoAnne:
as a woman in a technical lab field with large equipment, I have gotten unwanted advice and “help” so often. I know it happens much more, let’s say 100 to 1000 times more to women.
I got so sick of it, even more sick of it than catcalls, eventually I responded very aggressively - all the time, even to my close colleagues. My standard line became “you’re just saying/doing that because I’m a woman. I know how to do this by myself. Get out of my way.” It turns out addressing the problem heads on is a really good way of dealing with it.
With catcalling, my standard response is giving the finger with my back turned, so they know I can’t even be bothered to look at their reaction. And for Hector B: no matter what culture, the universal message of catcalling is to tell women to get off the street (public life) and back in the kitchen. It’s a denial of a woman’s right to access and use public space.
Without apologizing for the content of Jessica’s remarks, the desire for privacy really requires no excuse (unless you’ve chosen to be a public firgure or the like). A journalist, of course, might decide that it would be best to simply not use such quotes (I guess the number of women who were going to take the “compliment” view toward catcalling must have been pretty small, unsurprisingly.), but one needn’t have an excuse like fear of retribution for wanting to stay private.
Wow! I’d never heard that one, JoAnne! Are we talking about men who were already in your car as guests, offering to get out and try to direct you, or are we talking about just random strangers on the street? (My impression was the latter, but the former occured to me as I was writing this.) The only time I think of someone not in the car offering to “help” with parking are panhandlers who “direct” your parking then stand by expectently waiting for a quarter. Just random guys trying to “help” some woman park — that’s really weird. (BTW, looking over the previous paragraph, I thought I’d note that I’m not at all questioning the truth of your account; I just find it fascinating and unusual.)
I found an interesting article on the web describing the culture shock of American college women who were subjected to catcalling while studying abroad in Costa Rica. This quote captures the purpose behind catcalling in the CR culture:
According to the sociologist Francisco Escobar, piropos [ catcalls or unsolicited street comments ] have two functions: one is to send a very positive, flattering message and the second is to humiliate women publicly in order to demonstrate masculine superiority
The author states that women there are only now beginning to realize that catcalls are harassment, not flattery.
http://www.frontiersjournal.com/issues/vol1/vol1-01_Twombly.htm
” Or was I just being an ass and this guy was genuinely trying to help?”
I’ve had plenty of people say things like this to me, and I’m a guy, so yeah, IMO you’re overreacting. Maybe this dude had wheeled a tonne of shit in his day and he was just trying to be being helpful.
How about this: if a woman had said it, how would you have reacted?
(OTOH, according to the “back health” video I worked on, he’s wrong, or more correctly, he may be right- it may be easier, but pulling is more dangerous to your back than pushing. Apparently things get PULLED out of whack a lot more than being PUSHED out of whack.)
and the damn underline tag still doesn’t work, although it shows in the preview… fucking piece of crap…
Probably from the sort of asshole who would post her name on an Internet board, jam her e-mail box with porn subscriptions, or make threatening calls to her home. Because, you know, bitches need to be put in their place. I don’t blame her for not wanting her name used.
Eric: hmmm - no. Oponopax was not overreacting. Men tell women how to do physical work all the time, no matter how competent they are. Men offering you advice - trust me, it’s not in the same ballpark, in terms of frequency, nor is it done in the same way. Men to men = giving advice. Men to women = setting the little lady straight.
And Hector B, so you’ve finally understood that catcalling, in any culture, is an expression of male control of women in public space? Fabulouts, but wasn’t that in feminism 101? Sorry to be snarky, but one does get tired of repeating the same shit over and over again.
I also appreciate that you couldn’t just read the comments on this thread to get that: no, you had to go find a new source so you could claim this fabulous revelation! Argh.
Cassie, come on. You can’t expect a bunch of women to be taken seriously and listened to, now, can you?
the desire for privacy really requires no excuse
FWIW, my snark was more directed at the journalist who needed to tell us that Jessica had chosen to leave off her last name for reasons of privacy. Of course that is anyone’s right when being interviewed in the media, and in a lot of situations it’s the prudent thing to do. But there are much better ways to let the reader know that (or to make it seem unobtrusive so that the reader doesn’t need an explanation) than to make it sound like Jessica is trying to protect herself due to the extreme nature of what she’s about to say.
Or, hey, since apparently all “normal” women think street harassment is cute, why not just go find another of the billions of women who think so and are willing to use their last name?
if a woman had said it, how would you have reacted?
You know, I can’t actually picture that happening. Of course, I live in New York and was pretty shocked that some random guy on the street felt it necessary to break the New Yorker Code Of Public Silence in the first place. It would be one thing if I’d walked by a coworker — entirely possible, and a lot of my coworkers do physical labor as part of their work and know that I’m more of a desk jockey who might not know the best way. None of the teamsters, grips, and construction guys felt the need. But random guy trying to hail a cab? Oh, don’t worry, ‘cause he’s here to help!
Seriously, if a woman had said it, I’d probably have been equally annoyed but not called it sexism. Don’t know the significance of that.
Think of all the stories recently-pregnant women tell about people wanting to touch their bellies and shit. It’s probably less than a decade from “dayummmm, bitch, tha’s a fine ass!” to “oh, how sweet! I want to feel the baby kick!” to the silent assumption that you are someone else’s property now and thus not to be approached.
Or, you could be like me and actually get catcalled while visibly pregnant. Happened way more than once, and I highly doubt it’s because I lived in an area with filled with men with pregnancy fetishes.
ginmar, well, no, of course not. Except for this being part of the feminist blogosphere, that is.
Maybe I shouldn’t be so harsh, after all Hector B is just perpetuating his culture of which he is himself an unwitting victim etc etc. But damn if this issue doesn’t separate the empathetic humans from the oppression apologists for me. Ever since college, when we were asked to describe occurrences of sexual harassment, and I mentioned catcalling. Then a couple of frat boys piped up with the “it’s just a compliment” bs. A long discussion ensued, with everyone else trying to explain to the frat boys that women should be free to walk around without worrying about what anyone else thinks of them. They. were. not. getting. it. Probably still don’t.
I almost never get catcalled. I’m not sure whether it’s because I am hideously ugly (although I never get those types of catcall either) or because i’m quiet, nerdy looking, and frequently walk while reading a book (yes it’s possible, you just need good peripheral vision) but it’s done a number on my self esteem for years. Point is, catcalling hurts all women, particularly when it’s accepted as the norm.
Yo, Ugly in pink, you nerdy feminist! don’t let the bastards lack of attention get to you either!
When you are a nerdly female, especially if you’re walking while reading (which I’ve also done), but not necessarily, you are actively dis-inviting catcalls. I actually read, look down (never give eye contact), etc, because I’ve found that it’s a way of saying a silent FU to the world. Which sucks for the part of the world which is nice and friendly, but is fine for assholes. Keep up the nerdiness!
Thanks Cassie. I suppose it’s also possible that I could be so absorbed in my book I fail to notice catcalls, or assume they aren’t directed at me. I dunno. Anyone else have the experience of never being catcalled regardless of how good or bad you look or what you’re wearing? I’d like to see if there really are any common factors.
Oh, and I was describing my attire not for the ‘zomg i’m so hot even in ugly clothes’ effect, but in case someone needs further evidence that it has nothing whatsoever to do with ‘asking for it.’
Well, he might have been scolding you for not dressing to please his eye.
Re: The discussion at Bitch, PhD. I find it weird that so many people assume that cat-calling is up the class ladder. Almost never in my experience. I get cat-called mostly by middle class white dudes.
Men that catcall need you to react. Even your ignoring them is a form of reacting, unfortunately. But if you simply don’t see them, they do lose a little bit of power over you and they may seek other targets.
Interesting.
I have almost never been catcalled. In fact I’d say “never”, but that seems too broad — there may be an incident I’m forgetting. Oh, there was the time I was 14 and standing at the bus stop and a guy pulled up in his car and asked if I wanted to fuck. (A suburban school-bus stop, not a place like the urban bus stops near my home where you occasionally find hookers. Also, at 18 I apparently looked 12 and at 22 I was mistaken by eighth graders for a classmate, so I don’t even want to imagine how old I must have looked at 14. 8? I made the guy repeat himself five times because I couldn’t hear him well and probably because I simply couldn’t believe what I was hearing, and then answered with a disgusted, “No,” like I had just been propositioned by a sea slug, and he drove off. I recommend the technique if anyone else suffers from this type of harassment; asking them to repeat themselves five times makes them feel really stupid about making the comment in the first place.)
I think the lack of catcalls is because, mostly, I do not notice other human beings. when I am walking I am totally focused on where I’m going, what I’m going to do there, or else completely absorbed in thinking about something unrelated. I do not keep track of what other people around me are doing. People need to address me multiple times before I’ll realize they’re talking to me and actually pay attention. Panhandlers approach me and ask for money, I tell them ‘no’ and keep walking, and for the most part they don’t follow (aggressive panhandling, where people follow you begging for money and insulting you, is a big problem where I live, and my husband and male roommate get subjected to it a *lot* more than I do.)
So it’s possible I’ve been catcalled many times and just not noticed. It’s also possible that men noticed my intense self-absorption and catcalled easier targets. Or, perhaps, both.
(Also, no one put their hand on my tummy when I was pregnant, although people always asked questions like “When are you due?” and “Are you excited?” and “Are you having twins?…” that last was annoying because my stomach expanded hugely, but no, I wasn’t having twins, so it was a reminder of how much *worse* than the average pregnancy mine looked on me. And it turned out I had good medical reasons to be concerned, because I ended up needing surgery to put my stomach muscles back roughly where they belong.)
Ugly In Pink- I’ve never been catcalled or had random men come up to me while I was walking. Then again, because of my haircut and dress, I’m often mistaken for a boy. Wearing an Airforce jacket helps, too, I think (I’m not in the Airforce, but I like the jacket). Most people wouldn’t dare mess with someone they thought was in the military, man or woman.
Anyone else have the experience of never being catcalled regardless of how good or bad you look or what you’re wearing? I’d like to see if there really are any common factors.
As I’ve said, I’ve never noticed much difference, and pretty much every woman I know has an anecdote about being catcalled while looking unkempt. I feel like the wackjobs really come out in summer when women tend to show slightly more skin. On the other hand, though, I’ve been harassed in the midst of a February cold snap while androgynously bundled up from head to toe.
I feel like I get harassed less when I’m absolutely dressed to the nine or in a context where my beauty was expected to be noticed, but that’s probably because in those situations I’m likely to either be in a gang of girlfriends, or accompanied by men and/or butch lesbians. I count myself extremely lucky to never have been gay-bashed while out with said butch lesbians. Matter of time, I guess. Oh, but I have gotten that freaky “Hey! Are You A Girl Or A Boy?!” which is mega ultra super lame.
pretty much every woman I know has an anecdote about being catcalled while looking unkempt.
See that’s the thing. Not me. No catcalls while dressed up either. Well, at least Alara and Nicole are in the same boat as me in that respect. It’s probably just inattention to surroundings.
Oh, and regarding ’self-absorbtion’/obliviousness — I find that this shit goes way down when I wear sunglasses and headphones, and am buried in a book if waiting around (not a walking reader, unfortunately). They literally can’t get to me. Even better, if I’m actually listening to music on the headphones if it does happen I won’t even have to hear it.
Also, not to dispute people’s experiences or anything, but I always wonder how many “I pretty much never get catcalled” women live in non-urban areas or places where people aren’t out on the streets alone very much in the first place. Because I remember talking about this a lot on another forum for travelers to India before my trip, and the women who seemed absolutely appalled by the disgustingly mundane sexual harassment were suburban Americans who rarely have to walk on the streets of their home city.
UIP,
One of my best friends claims to have never been catcalled. And she is a looker. I think she either doesn’t notice because, like you, she is focused on other things in public, or she has some sort of “don’t mess with me” stamp on her.
When I am angry (or acting like it) I don’t get catcalled. When I am in a hurry, and look purposeful, I don’t get catcalled. And I don’t think I ever have been catcalled while reading, which I used to do a lot when I walked around. So if you are very other-focused, you are probably getting them to leave you alone.
And you shouldn’t feel bad about not getting it. Usually, it makes me anxious and afraid. I am always happier when I am in places where it doesn’t happen. (I almost NEVER got catcalled in a certain small college town, except for on frat. row. So polite. And midwestern construction workers don’t catcall, which is also nice.)
God only knows what it is, Ugly, because I read in public or listen to my iPod, and that offends some men, because they have to all but wave their hands between my nose and the book to make sure I understand that they would like my attention now for the weird or offensive thing they’re about to say.
Being with a man helps, but not always. I was walking down the street with two men and a woman last week and we women got catcalled. Gotta say I loved one of the guy’s response to the “Hey beautiful, (fill in whatever phrase meant “Pay attention to me now”).” He turned to them and was like, “Thanks!” as if it were aimed at him. Cracked me up.
(shrug) Bostonian here. I’m on the streets all the time. Again, I’m not bragging. From this and related incidents, I was convinced I was grossly hideous for years. My point was, women who get catcalled hate it, women who don’t get catcalled feel like there’s something horribly wrong with them. It’s just bad all ’round.
Ugly in Pink- Bostonian here, too! XD
I guess I have a permanent “bother me and I will end you” look on my face whenever I go out, which prevents men from coming up to me (though, I do get stopped and asked for directions by women a lot, which I don’t mind).
so you’ve finally understood that catcalling, in any culture, is an expression of male control of women in public space?
I haven’t had any particular epiphany on this thread, if that’s what you mean. To summarize:
1. Catcalling is wrong (for the reasons commenters have given.)
2. Despite being wrong, catcalling has been acceptable in certain cultures other than our own — e.g. Costa Rican culture.
3. I would suggest that catcalling has never been accepted in mainstream American culture even if asshole frat boys practice it. (Asshole frat boys also puke on sidewalks outside bars and urinate in public; this does not make these practices socially acceptable.
I would suggest that catcalling has never been accepted in mainstream American culture even if asshole frat boys practice it.
On what do you base this suggestion?
catcalling has never been accepted in mainstream American culture even if asshole frat boys practice it.
If this were true, and if the only people who ever did it were asshole frat boys who also tend to participate in other socially unacceptable behaviors, then why do we see articles like this every year this time which try to spin street harassment as a positive thing that only frigid feminazis are annoyed by (and they are only annoyed by it because it is “objectifying” or “demeaning”, not because of anything that would indicate that the ultimate purpose is social control).
There’s this weird habit in the south where people expect you to say hi to them if you pass them on the street. The gesture is nice in itself, but it opens you up to catcalls if you’re not careful. It’s that damn “speak when you’re spoken to” thing that some people are raised with and that only men are allowed to enforce.
My stepfather used to be offended if I didn’t say hi to him the first time I saw him every single day. As if I had to acknowledge his existence on the Earth and, therefore, boost his ego. While saying hi to a stranger isn’t quite catcalling I’ve always felt it to be intrusive and belittling.
Hector B, Ugly in Pink is right again.
You’re making a lot of assumptions in your use of the term “acceptable” behavior.
Your point 2: I bet catcalling was never acceptable to a large fraction of Costa Ricans, maybe a minority, but there nonetheless. Why do you claim to speak for all of them?
Your point 3: like in Costa Rica or anywhere else, catcalling is not acceptable to a fraction (maybe the majority) of the US population. However, the fact that it happens in all states, in many income classes, and happens often, means that is obviously is socially acceptable. Here’s something to think about: catcalling is often done by men in groups, more often than not.
My point? you are not the arbiter of any culture.
And to say you didn’t learn anything in this thread is clearly wrong: you started out pontificating about other cultures being fine with catcalling, but learned that catcalling the world over is meant to keep women in their subordinate place. Nothing wrong with admitting that.
As if I had to acknowledge his existence on the Earth and, therefore, boost his ego.
This is a little off-topic, but my abusive ex-boyfriend was similarly obsessive. He used to get furious if I forgot to say things like “you’re welcome” and “bless you” (after a sneeze). For no real reason but to have control over my most minute social reflexes, because, seriously, when you’ve been living with a lover for 2 years, that level of obsessive politeness kind of goes out the window.
No kidding. I stop suppressing my farts after the first week.
Not necessarily in defense or attack of Hector, but I would say catcalling is certainly different in different cultures, and there is a lot more of it in some cultures and we have less of it than some cultures and more of it than others. And in totally unscientific, purely anecdotal personal experience, I would say Latin American women are more likely to say they find it flattering than North American women.
But just because individual women find it flattering doesn’t mean it still doesn’t function as a way of controlling women in public space (like forcing you to be extra concerned with your fuckability). I feel more professional and put together when I wear high heels, but that doesn’t mean high heels aren’t a function of the patriarchy. My buying into it is part of how it functions.
I understand the kick-back Hector is getting here, because too often in the U.S. it’s dismissed as a cultural/class thing that only black/Hispanic/poor white men do, and that’s certainly not true. However, I do think there is an intersection of class/race privilege and sex privilege at play here, in which catcalling is a way in which men who have less privilege socially can re-assert their privileged status as men by catcalling women.
I do think there is an intersection of class/race privilege and sex privilege at play here, in which catcalling is a way in which men who have less privilege socially can re-assert their privileged status as men by catcalling women.
Totally. I didn’t want to say this before, because the internets are weird and I didn’t know how it would go over, but I’ve learned not to go out and about in the city on Puerto Rican Pride day. There are a lot of young guys using the strength in numbers and solidarity of that day to give a big fuck you to white guys by harassing “their” women. Not interested, thanks — perfect day to kick it at home with the Netflix.
That said, in no way is this a Latino thing. At All.
Exactly. And to the extent that it’s less here than in other cultures, it speaks to the in-roads feminism has made, not to how genteel our men folk are. I think the more women are viewed as fully human, the less of this you get (or the more an individual man views women as human, the less likely he is to engage in catcalling). Anyone here read the articles in the NYT on single men and women in Saudi Arabia? Because the gender segregation is so extreme, women are completely othered. It takes stuff that in our culture kind of exists as a subtext and makes it a lot more blatant. (Unfortunately, too many people will read it and think it’s just those crazy women-hating Muslims and not see the connections.)
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/12/world/middleeast/12saudi.html?_r=1&ref=world&oref=slogin
I remember reading that City Paper article, and it’s awful, seriously! My jaw literally dropped when the author gets to the end and is like, hey, guys keep catcalling even though women don’t respond, so they must get something from it. Why don’t I try, too! If I remember correctly, he ends up deciding it’s not worth the time, but seriously?? An investigative article on harassment ends with the author giving it a shot?? One can only hope he won’t tackle the subject of rape net.
As a man, the only time I’ve witnessed a catcall was in my hometown. It’s a college town (two CEGEPs, i.e. Quebec technical colleges, as well as two universities). I was walking with my two brothers (I’m a punk, they’re antifa skinheads) and this car filled with frat boys honked three women who were crossing the street. We audibly made fun of them and they turned the corner, got down from the car and almost came to blows with us. Guessing the reaction came from a combo of alcohol, being thwarted in a masculinity-reinforcing gesture, and the eternal privileged jocks VS lower class looking punks. We diffused the situation without violence (I don’t even remember how, actually, considering one of my brothers likes to beat up jocks on principles, so he would have been making things worse) and they left the scene.
My brothers are not even feminist aware. In all likelyhood their own reaction was the flipside “knight in shining armor” macho reaction, which is still rooted in privilege.
For a lot of us men who are feminist allies, even if we do follow the dictate “believe women when they tell you about the shit they have to live through”, at the end of the day it’s still just theory. There’s a marked difference between understanding a concept because it fits in with your abstract understanding of the world and because other people tell you about it happening, and being faced with the concrete reality of it.
Argh. My worse experience of being catcalled and groped was in Boston, during the Red Sox victory hoopla, by a bunch of white, upper class jock college boys.
The worst part? the college women who were buying into it, showing their boobs to whoops and yells. Awesome.
An anecdote that seems possibly relevant:
Some years ago I was travelling in Morocco. It is a beautiful, fascinating country, much more diverse geographically and culturally than I was expecting (and with wonderful food!), but not easy to travel in. Non-Moroccans are under a constant barrage of hustlers trying to sell you rugs, drugs and all sorts of things. Western women travelling alone are basically assumed to be available sexually.
I met and had a long talk with an American woman who had been living there for several years. I asked how she dealt with the constant unwanted attention–I was exhausted from it after just a few days, and being male, I wasn’t even subject to the sexual harrasment. She said two things helped: the first was learning Arabic. That made it clear she wasn’t a tourist, which upped her status a bit. But the main thing was she started wearing Moroccan clothes. The assumption was that any American or European woman wearing local clothes was probably married to a Moroccan, and most likely to a Morrocan who was wealthy and/or politically powerful. And in that culture, you just don’t mess with such a man’s wife. I thought it was interesting that she was using one offensive cultural stereotype (women as property) to fight another (Western women are sluts).
I’ve been catcalled/baited by men… And I’m a man. Apparently it’s something they do in the Castro in SF during the summer months.
Gotta admit, I was flattered (I was wearing my “sexy jeans”). But it was also extremely weird to be in the woman’s side of the equation. An interesting example of patriarchal behavior permeating our society–in order for some kind of sexually charged moment to occur, we all felt the need to mimic heterosexual/sexist scenarios.
It should be mandatory that high school boys be sent into gay bars for one night, as a requirement for graduation. I’ve seen so many men change their minds about catcalling after a man did it to them…putting the stiletto on the other gender’s foot can be very educational.
Many years ago, i remember spitting on the ground in the direction of the whistlers/catcallers in my chemical plant. I’m not real proud of that, but it made me feel like less of a victim.
I was harassed constantly when I lived in New York. I started to feel like I was in crazy town, could I really have been harassed every day? So, I started keeping a log, and, yes, I really was harassed every single day.
It’s also very interesting, especially in New York, how one minute you’re the sexiest, most beautiful thing in the world and the next minute you’re an ugly hag. The fact that many harassers from the get-go insult their targets, calling us fat and ugly*, should disabuse any notion that harassment is a compliment. It’s an exercise in domination and humiliation, period.
*And in every case those guys were fat and/or ugly themselves.
After 6 months of preparation for a 2 month trip to a non-western “developing” country, the mere mention of “tactics to prevent sexual harrassment” and/or the safety of traveling alone as a woman, any mention of anything even faintly having to do with that particular subject makes me want to vomit.
But what I will say is that, while India is not Morocco, after all the hype I didn’t find that I was sexually harassed any more there than I am here at home. Probably less. The main issue with unwanted sexual attention is that cultural cues are different, especially between classes and sexes. When I, the American white girl from the south, smile at a railway porter, I consider it to be basic politeness. He considers it a come-on, because in his culture people do not generally recognize the existence of people of the servant class, and women NEVER smile openly at strange men (especially strange men outside their social milieu).
The worst part? the college women who were buying into it, showing their boobs to whoops and yells. Awesome.
This is the worst part? Women showing their boobs is worse than men threatening and harassing them? People always say this in a long discussion of this type. It always gets to a point where somebody says, sure, it’s bad for men to oppress women, but hey, when women tolerate it for half a second, that’s so much worse/makes them feel so much worse. Well, no, it’s not, and it really shouldn’t.
Also, to backtrack upthread to the clueless guy who asked if it’s just as offensive when women offer unsolicited physical advice: Why, sure it is! Just like it’s equally offensive when a passing woman grunts “Nice tits” at me. Equally offensive but for the little matter of how it almost NEVER HAPPENS. Think about that for a while.
Re: women constantly obsessed with appearance:
I ride my bicycle on some multi-use paths in this area, and I pass pedestrians regularly. I’ll often use a phrase like, “Hey, on your left,” to signify that I’m coming up behind someone.
To a person, every man who understood English well enough to grasp my meaning quickly moved over in the opposite direction.
To a person, every woman who understood English well enough to grasp my meaning glanced down her clothing on the side indicated, then was startled when I slowed and attempted to pass.
So, yeah.
Also, not to dispute people’s experiences or anything, but I always wonder how many “I pretty much never get catcalled” women live in non-urban areas or places where people aren’t out on the streets alone very much in the first place.
Grew up in the suburbs, but moved to Philadelphia for college. Lived there four years, walked everywhere. Then moved to Atlanta suburbs for two years, walked around my apartment complex all the time and on the Emory campus. Then back to my parents’ home in the burbs for three years. Then back to Philly for three years. Again, walked everywhere. Then moved to Baltimore. Have been here almost nine years, now. I get a lot less walking done now that I have kids, but when i do go out walking it’s on city streets.
trust me, I have *lots* of experience walking around in places full of people. It’s just, either they don’t catcall me or I don’t notice it. My husband claims I have a “fuck-off” field that scares people away from trying to casually interact with me; if so, I wish I knew how I did it, because I’d sell the method and make millions. I’m only 5′0″, so I can’t figure out why anyone would be so intimidated by me that they would back off from panhandling me or not catcall me… but that’s how it happens, and I don’t know why.
trust me, I have *lots* of experience walking around in places full of people. It’s just, either they don’t catcall me or I don’t notice it.
I do trust you. That’s why I prefaced that with “don’t want to invalidate anyone’s experience, here”. Obviously if you know what I said doesn’t apply to you, I’m not trying to question your assessment of what you’ve experienced. The main reason I bring it up is not to say, “Oh, well being a typical ignorant suburbanite, you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about…” but to wonder whether the women who say they don’t get catcalled don’t get catcalled for some mundane reason like not having many opportunities to be catcalled.
Women who have plenty of opportunity but don’t experience are probably just extra fierce, or extra oblivious, or otherwise sending off nonverbal “don’t bother” cues.
vitaminC, what’s interesting is that in gay male urban culture, if you’re not interested, it’s OK–even expected–for you not to respond. Guy A shows interest in Guy B, and if Guy B doesn’t reciprocate, there’s a social norm that Guy A is an asshole if he doesn’t move on. It’s not a mechanism to remind men what they’re on the planet for.
Julian Elson:
No offfense taken. Yes, random strangers on the street.
I live in a neighborhood with a lot of bars in it, populated on weekends especially by college students and young adults, so lots of random passersby are drunk or have been drinking and may be trying to hit on/impress me by helping me.
Though the last one that did it was, I think, in his 50s.
Even feminists today are far behind Victoria Woodhull in the 19th Century.
http://www.sexuality.org/authors/steinberg/cn70.html
“Victoria Woodhull’s great virtue and her great failing were one and the same — her refusal to remain silent about the sexual empowerment of women and about the sexual hypocrisy she saw all around her among important political figures of her day, both within and outside the suffrage movement. Frequently overtaken by the “spirits” from whom she drew her inspiration, she insisted on speaking uncompromisingly about what she believed and, when hypocritically attacked for her sexual views, about the dalliances of the people around her.
With regard to women’s sexual appetites, she was both indignant and uncompromising: “Some women seem to glory over the fact that they never had any sexual desire and to think that desire is vulgar. What! Vulgar!… Vulgar rather must be the mind that can conceive such blasphemy. No sexual passion, say you. Say, rather, a sexual idiot, and confess your life is a failure… It is not the possession of strong sexual powers that is to be deprecated. They are a necessary part of human character… they are the foundation upon which civilization rests.”
With regard to marriage, Woodhull was equally outspoken: “Why do I war upon marriage…. because it is, I verily believe, the most terrible curse from which humanity now suffers, entailing more misery, sickness, and premature death than all other causes combined…. Sanctioned and defended by marriage, night after night there are thousands of rapes committed…. There was never a servitude in the world like this one of marriage.”"
What does that have to do with anything?
BlackBloc:
Ooh, I’ve been witness to that one, too. A particularly ugly incident:
http://jupiter9.livejournal.com/2006/09/20/
Anyone who needs confirmation (including visual) of the hearty persistence of catcalling, groping, self-exposing, etc. need only stroll over to any of the Holla Back! sites.
Being pregnant doesn’t protect you, and neither does having an infant–as I know, but one Holla Back-er said she had just emerged from her apt. on her tiny baby girl’s third day on the planet, and walked to the park to get fresh air and introduce said baby to the Big World, when some creep on a bench muttered something like, “Hey, I wanna get me some of that.”
I mean is NO ONE spared? Yeesh.
Leora #27: What a hideous epiphany. Much like the one my hubster had late one night walking up to a bus stop in SF: bunch of people glaring at him like he’d just killed somebody. He was really shook up by their faces and glanced around–to see a black guy, the true target of their gaze, walking behind him. He came home very rattled and marveled at what it must be like to be the target of that kind of hatred day in and day out. As BlackBloc #74 said above, it was just a taste of that concrete reality…
I guess you can’t read Opoponax,
“But just like those articles of old from Schlaflyites (”I love getting hooted at on the street, and husbands have a right to rape wives!”),”
husbands have a right to rape wives
There was no discussion of marital rape in the entire post or in the 90-odd comments that have since followed, aside from that one clause.
Not to mention that the three paragraphs you quoted only dimly relate to marital rape.
And of course, what does any of that have to do with where modern feminists are at these days vis a vis Victoria Woodhull? I would guess that ALL feminists have been fully against marital rape for approximately the last half-century, if not longer. Woodhull was hardly the first or the only feminist to see marriage for the raw deal that it was and in some ways still is (or, for that matter, to be fully in favor of sexual freedom for women — “free love” was HUGE amongst feminists, leftists, and other bohemians of her era).
So, ummm, your point?
I wonder if Bernarda is suggesting that not liking street harrassment is the same as not liking sex, and women who don’t like it are dried-up hags who are either jealous or asexual freaks.
I hope I’m wrong.
This is great. Privacy? Privacy from what, the feminist ninja assassins who kill all women who admit to liking something deemed “objectifying”?
How about, just y’know, privacy? She doesn’t have any obligation to reveal her identity to CNN, or you, or the Speshul Seekrit Feminazi Polizia.
Maybe she was speaking kind of ironically, I mean, the idea of using wolf-whistling as a gauge of your personal fitness is kinda like using the smoke detector as an oven timer, but whatever works.
I don’t agree with her, by the way.
I learned as a skinny 11-year-old that yahoos will whistle at anything.
Most people wouldn’t dare mess with someone they thought was in the military, man or woman.
Nicole, no offense but this kind of made me chuckle.
When I was in the Navy back in the day, I’d get occasional come-ons from guys. Probably because I was young, fit, and wore short hair and a mustache.
Of course, this was nothing at all like cat-calling, as Mythago pointed out. These were genuine advances were invariably furtive, clearly but subtly trying to see if I was actually interested in sex. (I wasn’t. But I was polite about it: “No thanks” and keep walking. There must be a lot of recruiting going on in San Diego, or they wouldn’t be constantly hitting obvious military dudes. Or there was a LOT more gays in the military than I had any idea about.)
It most definetely was not loudly calling out “nice ass!” or whatever, with the obvious intent to make the object feel humiliated and themselves feel powerful.
I’m surprised that there are men who say they’ve not witnessed it much or at all. When I was in high school and college, back in the dark ages of the mid-late ’80s, I knew plenty of guys who would do this. Not most, nor even a large minority, but still several.
They were also guys who tended to be assholes in a variety of ways. And I obviously can’t be sure, but I doubt they ever did it when by themselves- it always seemed like having a male audience to witness their awesomeness was essential.
I never understood it, to be frank. It was so obviously obnoxious, made themselves look like the assholes (that they actually were), and clearly pissed off the targeted women.
I do remember challenging a couple of guys about it, pointing out that they were being assholes and asking if they really thought that was going to get them laid or something. One dude immediately fell back on the “it’s a compliment” schtick, but another dude went into a disturbing rant about how they were all asking for it, secretly enjoying it, deserved it for being teases, yadda.
Both guys were creeps; neither were friends, just casual acquaintances. And this was about 20 years ago, I guess I’ve been a lot more selective about who I hang with since then.
These guys were all middle-class white boys (and a few latinos), btw. And I do mean “boys”… all under 20. And they weren’t jocks, rednecks, or fratboys- most of my crowd in those days were artist and musician-types. Punks, stoners, and hippies, mostly.
Seeing it done was always at best bemusing, in a “this guy has no idea how stupid he looks” way. Usually it was just annoying in a “what the hell am I doing being seen with this idiot” way.
I gotta say, of all the idiotic and even misogynistic attitudes I held in my own mis-spent youth, at least I can honestly say I skipped this one. (Now I’m going to go bake myself a cookie.)
How about, just y’know, privacy? She doesn’t have any obligation to reveal her identity to CNN, or you, or the Speshul Seekrit Feminazi Polizia.
As I’ve already clarified upthread, my beef is not with Jessica, who has every right to protect her privacy however she sees fit, but with the writer of the piece, who chose that particular phrasing when there are myriad ways around the last-name-avoidance that don’t make it sound like Jessica is about to make some sort of heavily un-PC confession that could damage her reputation or physical safety.
Though I’ll also add that, reading the whole article, it becomes pretty obvious why Jessica’s last name is left out and why she might have a stake in protecting her privacy while the other women quoted don’t. The women quoted on the “anti” side are accomplished feminist women who have professional opinions on street harassment. A film-maker who made a film about it, a university professor who has studied it. Then, on the “pro” side, all they could find was some ‘woman on the street’ who was willing to weigh in — those sorts of interviewees are generally semi-anonymous and are not expected to use their full names.
The only way they could hide the awkwardness of their “balanced” “debate” was by pretending that the professor and the film-maker were also just women on the street who wanted to weigh in, but that they had the PC Army on their side while poor Jessica did not.
I’m guessing the only ‘experts’ they could find to counterbalance the professional opinions of the film-maker and professor were (male) mouthbreathers from the Concerned Women for America or the iFeminsts.
If acting like that didn’t sometimes work for these men, they would stop it.
MS - you hear that one a lot if you’re a woman who travels alone - “Ooh, you should wear a wedding ring!” Wedding rings, shiny, expensive deflectors of unwanted penis! Righty. It’s just a loathsome idea rooted in really unpleasant assumptions ands sexual politics. I’d rather deal with the idiots than go down that road, wearing tacky patriarchal symbols and inventing invisible men who apparently own my mind and body in order to beg for scraps from the master’s table.
The idea that one’s right to to physical safety as a woman should be based on one’s assumed marital status is utterly noxious and I loathe those who insist on playing into it and perpetuating the lunatic mythology that married=safe/unmarried= target by dint of such advice.
P.A.T. - If you’re going to be here, pay attention. We’ve said it enough times - catcalling works for them every single time. It pisses women off (or scares them) and reminds them of their place in the patriarchy. THAT is the function of catcalling. THAT is what men who catcall are after.
“Ooh, you should wear a wedding ring!”
Bleh.
I will admit that, while traveling alone, I had to use a hypothetical husband exactly ONCE to deflect a potentially unsafe situation — I was being scammed by a rickshaw driver outside a train station late at night, so I alluded to a “friend” I was meeting at a certain hotel (thus needed to go there whether it was “full” or not), when suddenly the creep factor started really pouring out: “Ah, your friend, madam? You are going to meet your LOVVVVERRRRRR? [said in the most icky way possible]” My response, “No, my HUSBAND! I’m going to meet my HUSBAND!” Creepitude immediately dissolved into thin air.
Hint for perspective solo travelers: most non-western countries don’t use wedding rings.
There are days I contemplate writing a serious and down to earth solo woman travel book from a genuinely feminist perspective, debunking all the stupid “wear a wedding ring!” crap…
so, i have to use cane to walk pretty often. this is a new thing (and, i really hope, a temporary thing)
when i use the cane, i never NEVER get catcalled.
when i can walk without it… invariably, something… a shout, a grope, a random guy demanding my phone number…
and i am not “hot” - i am 50lbs overweight!
Punditus Maximus
You do realize that we “obsess” over our appearance because everyone else - such as, oh say catcalling assholes - is constantly reminding us of how important it is, right? And that the difference in responses is because random men don’t yell out comments about men’s appearance as they are walking. (Having men yell at you from their cars from the time you hit puberty at age nine tends to make one a bit self-conscious when people yell out anything to you as you are walking, no matter the reason.) Neither do men get told by their supervisors that they are dressing too much like a slut for work. (In less sue-worthy language, of course).
Everyone is judged by their appearance, but women are judged much more harshly for stepping out of line, and have a thinner line to tread at that.
So, yeah, I suppose one could say that we are “obsessed” about our appearance. One could also make the argument that catcalls are compliments. They are both stupid statements.
Hey, UIP and Nicole, I’m a Bostonian too, and I NEVER get catcalled. Pretty much every time a discussion of catcalling comes up, someone mentions that it happens to every woman, and I think to myself, “wow, I must be absolutely inhumanly hideous, then.”
So, maybe I am. Or maybe it’s because I look like a 14 year old boy, not a 22 year old woman. Or maybe my face is permanently scowling — I do get commanded to smile from time to time. But maybe it’s just a Boston thing?
Hey, UIP and Nicole, I’m a Bostonian too, and I NEVER get catcalled. Pretty much every time a discussion of catcalling comes up, someone mentions that it happens to every woman, and I think to myself, “wow, I must be absolutely inhumanly hideous, then.”
So, maybe I am. Or maybe it’s because I look like a 14 year old boy, not a 22 year old woman. Or maybe my face is permanently scowling — I do get commanded to smile from time to time. But maybe it’s just a Boston thing?
As far as third world traveling goes, the key thing, in my personal experience, is just not being friendly to men. Not even the sort of neutral, shared public space friendly that you would be out of common courtesy in the U.S. Between the stereotype of Western women as perpetually available sexually and the different cultural cues between men and women, being friendly to men can make things a lot worse, particularly the really directed, persistent, personal harrassment that can be really scary. And the flip side of that is whenever possible, seek out the company of women. Too often, Western women feel so constrained when they visit or live in countries with much more blatant patriarchal social systems, but there is this whole world that is open to us that foreign men will never get to experience.
Err paramatrizer?
getting “commanded to smile” is part of catcalling.
I think for some women, the “It’s really a compliment” thing is a way to avoid feeling humiliated, embarrassed, or afraid. Hostility is an upsetting thing. It *is* better to face reality, because you then aren’t as shocked and unready for those times when the hostility becomes unignorable.
Cassie, I guess I always considered that mildly annoying, not harassment. I am not 100% against all verbal interactions with strangers, in fact, I often enjoy them. I feel like there are friendly interactions, and there are ill intended interactions, and (for me personally) “hey, it’s a nice day, smile!” goes into the friendly, if somewhat annoying, category. It obviously comes from a sexist place, but that by itself doesn’t make it harassment. The kind of remarks that I often hear others reporting are clearly not just well intended attempts at friendliness gone awry, they are assertions of dominance, meant to make the recipient uncomfortable.
Anyway, I can certainly see how “smile!” from a stranger could be bothersome, or worse, to someone; however, it has never made me uncomfortable, nor have I felt that it was intended to make me uncomfortable. I feel that I would minimize others’ experiences of street harassment by classifying it as such.
I agree that catcalling is about vulnerability and getting a reaction, not about age or attractiveness. I’m only 23, thin, and pretty (although not to society’s standard, since I have short hair and small breasts), and I can’t actually remember ever being catcalled. Maybe once. And I think it’s because my body language is confident and non-reactive (I DO get the “Smile!” crap fairly frequently). I also don’t typically get hit on (a friend once told me i give off hostile don’t-hit-on-me vibes, which I wish I could figure out how to turn on and off at will).
I just don’t look entertaining anymore–I was easy to provoke to tears when I was a kid, but the mockery then wasn’t sexually oriented, more along the lines of spitting in my hair)–martial arts completely changed how I carry myself.
I’m not saying this to suggest it’s our responsibility as women to not look vulnerable, just to agree that catcalling has nothing to do with age or attractiveness.