It may be that as a relatively new mother I am more likely to come into contact with anti-vaxers in forums where they actually feel free to share their uncensored opinion. I rarely ever post on those forums because I learn far more about the thought processes behind anti-vaccination by observing. You are free to disagree based on your experience, but we will just have to leave it at that.

I don’t see this behavior limited to the “hardcore” pro-vax community.

This is a pretty willful misinterpretation of my position, contradicted by the definition of “mommier-than-thou” that I provided. I said it was one topic that seemed to easily fall prey to the mommier-than-thouers.

I want to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are not willfully misinterpreting me (and Mnemosyne, for that matter) in order to score points. I respectfully request that you make a better attempt at faithfully engaging with those you disagree with by accurately summarizing their arguments.

So you’re telling me that I think measles and chicken pox are equivalent, yet you’re complaining that I’m using you as a strawman? Re-read my post: I am merely pointing out that your argument is flawed for the same reason fundies’ arguments about BCPs are.

Uh, yeah, that was my point. You’re putting words in my mouth that I never said and claiming that I was making a point I never tried to make. And you KEEP DOING IT.

Again, if, according to you, my argument that measles is a worse and more deadly disease than chicken pox is the same as a fundamentalist arguing that BCPs cause heart attacks, then that means that you think that measles and chicken pox are equivalent diseases of equivalent seriousness. Either that, or you think that measles is so rare and strange that even if someone in the first world caught it, they have the same chance of dying from it as someone dying from chicken pox. Which, again, means that you think that measles and chicken pox are diseases with the same level of seriousness.

In other words, you think that the seriousness of chicken pox and of measles are comparable and we shouldn’t worry if kids in the US start coming down with measles, because getting measles is no worse than getting chicken pox.

You are arguing against a strawman that I never erected. Please stop it.

So you’re telling me that I think measles and chicken pox are equivalent, yet you’re complaining that I’m using you as a strawman? Re-read my post: I am merely pointing out that your argument is flawed for the same reason fundies’ arguments about BCPs are.

history_mom:

Like I said, this is based on my experience talking with anti-vaxers and the reasons they choose to not vaccinate (as opposed to the vast majority who choose delayed vaccination). The people who do not vaccinate are separate from the anti-vax organizations in that, by and large, they do take this as an individual responsibility and the only changes they agitate for is expanding the exemptions so that they don’t have to vaccinate their children….There is a strong correlation to the natural living movement, but again it is at an individual not an activist level.

Where do you live? I haven’t seen this around here at all. I’ve never heard a parent say something along the lines of “I just don’t want my child to get autism, but I don’t really follow what’s going on in the news.” Instead, I keep hearing “I’ll get my child vaccinated when pharmas start taking responsibility for the long-term safety of their products. The FDA’s totally ineffective, so what else can I do?”

Many of these parents are not out there advocating for a change in corporate policies.

How do you define advocating?

And overmedicalization is a huge issue. I would say 2/3 to 3/4 of anti-vaxing women are also pro-natural birth, pro-midwife, or pro-home birth.

Wow. None of my friends — all of whom refused to vaccinate their children — did this. All went to hospitals and conventional OB/GYNs. But maybe that’s because midwives aren’t a big thing in the urban areas where I went to college and graduate school. I wonder how geography factors into it.

Anti-vax (or hardcore pro-vax) seems to fall easily into this category.

I don’t see this behavior limited to the “hardcore” pro-vax community. It seems like it’s rampant among insecure parents of all stripes.

Perhaps yet another reason to re-examine the maternal-industrial complex that is birth in this country is that the messed up nature of modern obstetric practice can instill a permanent distrust of modern medicine, even the good parts. Or maybe it’s a chicken/egg thing.) They’re a different sort than the ones who agitated to get the mercury out of vaccines, which I’m glad they did. I’m persuaded the autism-vaccine link just isn’t there, but I’d still rather have my vaccines without mercury, thanks.

I completely agree. I am also interested to see what further studies on replacements for aluminum salts as adjuvants will yield (initial research in Belgium looks promising). I am am pro-vaccine, but my preference would be a delayed schedule (didn’t with my first son– no insurance, so to get the vaxes covered by the state I had to settle for the combo vaccines my pedi offered and couldn’t afford to pay cash for extra visits). In addition, since we know vaccines work, I think it is appropriate to demand research into developing alternatives additives to ingredients we suspect are harmful. There is nothing wrong or anti-science about wanting the safest vaccines possible. I am not a fan of extremism in any guise.

My experience of hardcore anti-vaccine folks is the same as yours. (For a little bit I went to a mother’s group organized through the birth center where my midwife practiced, and yes, definitely lots of non-vaccinating parents. Perhaps yet another reason to re-examine the maternal-industrial complex that is birth in this country is that the messed up nature of modern obstetric practice can instill a permanent distrust of modern medicine, even the good parts. Or maybe it’s a chicken/egg thing.) They’re a different sort than the ones who agitated to get the mercury out of vaccines, which I’m glad they did. I’m persuaded the autism-vaccine link just isn’t there, but I’d still rather have my vaccines without mercury, thanks.

There is a strong correlation to the natural living movement, but again it is at an individual not an activist level. Many of these parents are not out there advocating for a change in corporate policies. And overmedicalization is a huge issue. I would say 2/3 to 3/4 of anti-vaxing women are also pro-natural birth, pro-midwife, or pro-home birth. Spend some time on parenting boards and you will see the strong relationship between women who choose less interventive birth and not vaccinating– I didn’t just pull this out of my ass.

On mommier-than-thou: an extension of the patriarchal pitting of women against each other, in this case as mothers. Any mom who makes another mother feel ashamed or lesser for making a different choice (that is not harmful) in parenting. This person tends to regard their parenting style as the ONLY proper way to parent and everyone else is too uneducated to know better. Men also like to play daddier-than-thou: on a hot day an Australian friend was pumping gas with her son strapped in a car seat and all the windows rolled down for air and a man pulled over to tell chastise her because didn’t she know that someone could steal her child? In talking to many of my foreign friends, this habit seems to be particularly bad in Americans. Anti-vax (or hardcore pro-vax) seems to fall easily into this category.

You may disagree with my assessment but that is what I’ve observed, particularly as I run a non-profit group for mothers for over a year.

Strangely, the exact reasons you give not to trust your office wrt to flu shots are the ones why I trust mine. Because they do not want me to get the flu, and I do not want to get the flu. Our motivations for that are different, but we share this common interest. And it’s less bother to get the shot on company time in the next building than to schedule a doctor’s appointment…

On a few OTHER things, yeah we sometimes disagree and that’s cool…

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/schedules/adult-schedule.htm

This is a potential problem for them and others since they can pass the contagion on. If you hadn’t had a booster for these in the last ten years, it was probably a good thing for you.

When the Soviet Union broke up, vaccination campaigns suffered and cases of diptheria increased dramatically. From 2,000 cases in 1991 it increased to 200,000 in 1998 in the Commonwealth of Independent States.

If you have seen pictures of what this disease can do, you know you don’t want to get it.

Well, I see I am behind in my shots. I better take care of it.