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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;States&#8217; rights&#8221; threatens individual rights both popular and not</title>
	<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/06/7159/</link>
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	<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 21:12:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Dilan Esper</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/06/7159/#comment-514036</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 15:01:05 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/06/7159/#comment-514036</guid>
					<description>The real reason Loving is set in stone is because conservatives need the principle that the Constitution bars all race discrimination (which they in fact deviate from when convenient) to make the arguments they make against the constitutionality of affirmative action programs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The real reason Loving is set in stone is because conservatives need the principle that the Constitution bars all race discrimination (which they in fact deviate from when convenient) to make the arguments they make against the constitutionality of affirmative action programs.
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		<title>by: seeker6079</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/06/7159/#comment-513942</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 07:20:26 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/06/7159/#comment-513942</guid>
					<description>has_te, what mythago said.

Add to that the fact that &quot;states' rights&quot; in the wingie lexicon means &quot;the right of those states to enforce bigoted or religious or ultraconservative mandates&quot;.  It has never been about states' rights in the pure (ahem) sense, ever.  Most wingies, for example, scream approval of states' rights but vastly disapprove of them in actual practice if, say, California wants to have medical marijuana, or, (and I'm just speaking hypothetically here), a state court system wants to count votes for the presidency in a manner that is wholly compatible with state law (not that that would ever happen of course),</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>has_te, what mythago said.</p>
	<p>Add to that the fact that &#8220;states&#8217; rights&#8221; in the wingie lexicon means &#8220;the right of those states to enforce bigoted or religious or ultraconservative mandates&#8221;.  It has never been about states&#8217; rights in the pure (ahem) sense, ever.  Most wingies, for example, scream approval of states&#8217; rights but vastly disapprove of them in actual practice if, say, California wants to have medical marijuana, or, (and I&#8217;m just speaking hypothetically here), a state court system wants to count votes for the presidency in a manner that is wholly compatible with state law (not that that would ever happen of course),
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		<title>by: mythago</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/06/7159/#comment-513924</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 00:55:24 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/06/7159/#comment-513924</guid>
					<description>has_te, the missing element here is &quot;full faith and credit&quot;. If it were a genuine states'-rights argument, then it would be agreed upon that a &quot;no same-sex marriage&quot; state would recognize another state's valid same-sex marriage, just as California (minimum marriage age 18) recognizes a valid Kansas marriage involving a 13-year-old and a 20-year-old. And the federal government would say that if a state says &quot;these people are validly married under our laws&quot;, that's good enough for D.C.

Funnily, that's not what the usual suspects want.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>has_te, the missing element here is &#8220;full faith and credit&#8221;. If it were a genuine states&#8217;-rights argument, then it would be agreed upon that a &#8220;no same-sex marriage&#8221; state would recognize another state&#8217;s valid same-sex marriage, just as California (minimum marriage age 18) recognizes a valid Kansas marriage involving a 13-year-old and a 20-year-old. And the federal government would say that if a state says &#8220;these people are validly married under our laws&#8221;, that&#8217;s good enough for D.C.</p>
	<p>Funnily, that&#8217;s not what the usual suspects want.
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		<title>by: Mark Foxwell</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/06/7159/#comment-513900</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 20:15:09 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/06/7159/#comment-513900</guid>
					<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;xtine
May 6, 2008 at 10:07 am

I’ve never understood why these wingnuts are so personally affected by people who marry someone of a different race (complete strangers..). I couldnt imagine caring that much to interfere with someone else’s personal life.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Because racism, at least in the form I am familiar with here in the USA, isn't about individual &quot;tastes&quot; at all; it has been and still is a social system that defines and underwrites the privileges of property.

Allowing individuals to demonstrate the bankruptcy of all the ideological rationalizations of racism would have been (and to the extent that relatively enlightened decisions like &lt;i&gt;Loving&lt;/i&gt; have been observed rather than &lt;i&gt;de facto&lt;/i&gt; breeched, has been) subversive of the rule of property.

It doesn't strictly have to be, of course--in principle we could have pretty much the same society without racism. But to try to do so would call too many other inequities into question. Our society operates in part by designating many of the less desirable positions of our stratified structure of opportunity and privilege versus compulsion and restriction for categories of people who are more or less effectively excluded from having a political impact; if everyone were truly equal in the political process we would probably demand and get a more equitable deal.

I'm not pretending people didn't and don't internalize the rationalizations and therefore are conscious of &quot;protecting the sanctity of the white race&quot; or some such nonsense as the Virginia judge handed down, rather than being conscious of their selfish cynicism. But it is the selfish cynicism that gives teeth and durability to the patently nonscensical racist ideology, and regenerates it even when driven somewhat underground.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<blockquote><p>xtine<br />
May 6, 2008 at 10:07 am</p>
	<p>I’ve never understood why these wingnuts are so personally affected by people who marry someone of a different race (complete strangers..). I couldnt imagine caring that much to interfere with someone else’s personal life.</p></blockquote>
	<p>Because racism, at least in the form I am familiar with here in the USA, isn&#8217;t about individual &#8220;tastes&#8221; at all; it has been and still is a social system that defines and underwrites the privileges of property.</p>
	<p>Allowing individuals to demonstrate the bankruptcy of all the ideological rationalizations of racism would have been (and to the extent that relatively enlightened decisions like <i>Loving</i> have been observed rather than <i>de facto</i> breeched, has been) subversive of the rule of property.</p>
	<p>It doesn&#8217;t strictly have to be, of course&#8211;in principle we could have pretty much the same society without racism. But to try to do so would call too many other inequities into question. Our society operates in part by designating many of the less desirable positions of our stratified structure of opportunity and privilege versus compulsion and restriction for categories of people who are more or less effectively excluded from having a political impact; if everyone were truly equal in the political process we would probably demand and get a more equitable deal.</p>
	<p>I&#8217;m not pretending people didn&#8217;t and don&#8217;t internalize the rationalizations and therefore are conscious of &#8220;protecting the sanctity of the white race&#8221; or some such nonsense as the Virginia judge handed down, rather than being conscious of their selfish cynicism. But it is the selfish cynicism that gives teeth and durability to the patently nonscensical racist ideology, and regenerates it even when driven somewhat underground.
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		<title>by: Phoenician in a time of Romans</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/06/7159/#comment-513869</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 17:26:18 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/06/7159/#comment-513869</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;This seems to me like an argument for forcibly shipping white people back to Europe.&lt;/i&gt;

And we only get that because we did such a bang up job at wiping out the Neanderthal.

About the only people who can be smug about this are the Polynesian Islanders and the Maori, although the ghosts of the Moriori in the Chathams might have a few words to say there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>This seems to me like an argument for forcibly shipping white people back to Europe.</i></p>
	<p>And we only get that because we did such a bang up job at wiping out the Neanderthal.</p>
	<p>About the only people who can be smug about this are the Polynesian Islanders and the Maori, although the ghosts of the Moriori in the Chathams might have a few words to say there.
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		<title>by: ames</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/06/7159/#comment-513852</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 16:40:07 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/06/7159/#comment-513852</guid>
					<description>Thanks, Ptlindy. I seriously had no idea this was something ever prohibited by law. Crazy fundies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thanks, Ptlindy. I seriously had no idea this was something ever prohibited by law. Crazy fundies.
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		<title>by: Ptlindy</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/06/7159/#comment-513841</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 16:04:45 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/06/7159/#comment-513841</guid>
					<description>&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;Not to entirely derail the conversation, but I had no idea there was actually a law passed ALLOWING married couples to use contraception! Does anyone know the details? I can’t believe this is something that had to be made legal. WTF is it with people interfering with the sex lives of others?&quot;&gt;

Griswold vs. the State of Connecticut&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<blockquote cite="Not to entirely derail the conversation, but I had no idea there was actually a law passed ALLOWING married couples to use contraception! Does anyone know the details? I can’t believe this is something that had to be made legal. WTF is it with people interfering with the sex lives of others?">
	<p>Griswold vs. the State of Connecticut</p></blockquote>
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		<title>by: Bill S</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/06/7159/#comment-513836</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 15:59:21 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/06/7159/#comment-513836</guid>
					<description>Oh, and also, they're assholes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oh, and also, they&#8217;re assholes.
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		<title>by: Bill S</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/06/7159/#comment-513832</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 15:57:07 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/06/7159/#comment-513832</guid>
					<description>Well, ames, it's like this;
Some people believe that an infinately wise, loving being, responsible for creating the entire universe, gets upset when individuals inhabiting one planet in that entire universe, make decisions about their private lives (and their own bodies)that violate rules of some ancient book that a bunch of desert nomads wrote 2,000 years ago. Not that the people who believe this know exactly what that book says, or follow every rule in it, to the letter. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well, ames, it&#8217;s like this;<br />
Some people believe that an infinately wise, loving being, responsible for creating the entire universe, gets upset when individuals inhabiting one planet in that entire universe, make decisions about their private lives (and their own bodies)that violate rules of some ancient book that a bunch of desert nomads wrote 2,000 years ago. Not that the people who believe this know exactly what that book says, or follow every rule in it, to the letter.
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		<title>by: ames</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/06/7159/#comment-513794</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 14:35:32 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/05/06/7159/#comment-513794</guid>
					<description>Not to entirely derail the conversation, but I had no idea there was actually a law passed ALLOWING married couples to use contraception! Does anyone know the details? I can't believe this is something that had to be made legal. WTF is it with people interfering with the sex lives of others?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Not to entirely derail the conversation, but I had no idea there was actually a law passed ALLOWING married couples to use contraception! Does anyone know the details? I can&#8217;t believe this is something that had to be made legal. WTF is it with people interfering with the sex lives of others?
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