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	<title>Comments on: Principal &#8216;outs&#8217; students to curb PDA</title>
	<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/30/principal-outs-students-to-curb-pda/</link>
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	<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 01:30:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Orion45</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/30/principal-outs-students-to-curb-pda/#comment-513268</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 May 2008 17:10:03 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/30/principal-outs-students-to-curb-pda/#comment-513268</guid>
					<description>A lttle late on this thread, but just finding Pandagon, as PHB is my #1 blog.
Two other problems here. 
 1) ACLU is way too slow to do anything about high school rules, and presumably for legal reasons never told anyone else about the problem!
 2) Memphis is having a Pride Celebration, so some are out there.

When I first read this I forwarded it to PFLAG.... who had NOT heard of the case. 
That is just wrong. That is who should be handling this, community members.

They are on it now, so I hope for some good news... and at least some quality and equality 'education' to be taking place at that school.  

Just another wingnut homophobe in denial... she should move to OK City and join Sally K... after all they are both 'educators.'  ... what a horrific thought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>A lttle late on this thread, but just finding Pandagon, as PHB is my #1 blog.<br />
Two other problems here.<br />
 1) ACLU is way too slow to do anything about high school rules, and presumably for legal reasons never told anyone else about the problem!<br />
 2) Memphis is having a Pride Celebration, so some are out there.</p>
	<p>When I first read this I forwarded it to PFLAG&#8230;. who had NOT heard of the case.<br />
That is just wrong. That is who should be handling this, community members.</p>
	<p>They are on it now, so I hope for some good news&#8230; and at least some quality and equality &#8216;education&#8217; to be taking place at that school.  </p>
	<p>Just another wingnut homophobe in denial&#8230; she should move to OK City and join Sally K&#8230; after all they are both &#8216;educators.&#8217;  &#8230; what a horrific thought.
</p>
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		<title>by: Seraph</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/30/principal-outs-students-to-curb-pda/#comment-513111</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 May 2008 11:23:35 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/30/principal-outs-students-to-curb-pda/#comment-513111</guid>
					<description>OK, Mold, so your point was that your school is disciplined, yet enlightened.  Thanks for sharing.  

One thing - if you're an educator, I recommend you seek out a different line of work.  If you're not, I don't recommend you take it up.  Considering that venomous hatred for the students that you keep voicing, it's not a job that you're well-suited for.  You'd be happier elsewhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>OK, Mold, so your point was that your school is disciplined, yet enlightened.  Thanks for sharing.  </p>
	<p>One thing - if you&#8217;re an educator, I recommend you seek out a different line of work.  If you&#8217;re not, I don&#8217;t recommend you take it up.  Considering that venomous hatred for the students that you keep voicing, it&#8217;s not a job that you&#8217;re well-suited for.  You&#8217;d be happier elsewhere.
</p>
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		<title>by: Mold</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/30/principal-outs-students-to-curb-pda/#comment-512993</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 18:42:04 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/30/principal-outs-students-to-curb-pda/#comment-512993</guid>
					<description>Point was that PDA needs to be policed within the confines of school-appropriate behaviors.  We are training them to be adults, not entitled lordlings.

Our SD has PDA rules that are consistent and enforced.  We expect adult behavior and discipline when needed.

That said, we also had a Day of Silence for the recently passed child.  Some of our students kept quiet and others attempted to bully them into speech.  This was not tolerated.

As far as outing students, this is contrary to school policy and is grounds for dismissal.  My own philosophy is such that the term, &quot;that's so gay&quot;, is cause for immediate warning and will go to discipline for a second infraction.

This is Whitest Whitesylvania and many instructors are not as proactive in their LGBT tolerance.  But then, I time debates to keep the playing field level.  Banning speech is fascist and usually done when your arguments are weak.  Along with ad hominem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Point was that PDA needs to be policed within the confines of school-appropriate behaviors.  We are training them to be adults, not entitled lordlings.</p>
	<p>Our SD has PDA rules that are consistent and enforced.  We expect adult behavior and discipline when needed.</p>
	<p>That said, we also had a Day of Silence for the recently passed child.  Some of our students kept quiet and others attempted to bully them into speech.  This was not tolerated.</p>
	<p>As far as outing students, this is contrary to school policy and is grounds for dismissal.  My own philosophy is such that the term, &#8220;that&#8217;s so gay&#8221;, is cause for immediate warning and will go to discipline for a second infraction.</p>
	<p>This is Whitest Whitesylvania and many instructors are not as proactive in their LGBT tolerance.  But then, I time debates to keep the playing field level.  Banning speech is fascist and usually done when your arguments are weak.  Along with ad hominem.
</p>
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		<title>by: Ms Kate</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/30/principal-outs-students-to-curb-pda/#comment-512957</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 15:49:34 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/30/principal-outs-students-to-curb-pda/#comment-512957</guid>
					<description>Sixties Liberal, that policy you reference doesn't seem anywhere near as bad as the stupidity in the original post.  It targets actual behavior and responds to a specific set of problems compounded by crowding.  I believe my sons have a modified version of that rule in their grade school and middle school, which include children from a diverse array of backgrounds and socioeconomic status. It isn't a bad approach to make it clear that you are expected to keep your hands to yourself or else.

The &quot;list of couples&quot; approach is stupid if curbing actual sexual display behavior is the goal.  If PDA was a problem, then hauling dry humpers and spit swappers to the principal's office for discipline is the appropriate policy (Before a PDA ban in my high school in 1982, we had kids dry humping and sticking hands down pants in every hallway.  Yuck!). It isn't appropriate to make out in most public places.  Going after &quot;couples&quot; is going after off-campus behavior and therefore deserves all the derision it gets.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sixties Liberal, that policy you reference doesn&#8217;t seem anywhere near as bad as the stupidity in the original post.  It targets actual behavior and responds to a specific set of problems compounded by crowding.  I believe my sons have a modified version of that rule in their grade school and middle school, which include children from a diverse array of backgrounds and socioeconomic status. It isn&#8217;t a bad approach to make it clear that you are expected to keep your hands to yourself or else.</p>
	<p>The &#8220;list of couples&#8221; approach is stupid if curbing actual sexual display behavior is the goal.  If PDA was a problem, then hauling dry humpers and spit swappers to the principal&#8217;s office for discipline is the appropriate policy (Before a PDA ban in my high school in 1982, we had kids dry humping and sticking hands down pants in every hallway.  Yuck!). It isn&#8217;t appropriate to make out in most public places.  Going after &#8220;couples&#8221; is going after off-campus behavior and therefore deserves all the derision it gets.
</p>
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		<title>by: Seraph</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/30/principal-outs-students-to-curb-pda/#comment-512948</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 15:11:15 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/30/principal-outs-students-to-curb-pda/#comment-512948</guid>
					<description>Clearly absurd, SL, but again, beside the point.  Don't let yourself be distracted.  This was never actually about PDA.  For one thing, the boys weren't engaging in any.  They were trying to keep their relationship quiet.  For another, as myself and others have pointed out, a list of couples would be a useless tool for enforcing rules against PDA - but &lt;i&gt;that was never its intended purpose&lt;/i&gt;.  The principal revealed her true agenda early on by asking for lists of &quot;homo and hetero&quot; couples.  This was about exposing homosexuals to public humiliation and harassment from the get-go.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Clearly absurd, SL, but again, beside the point.  Don&#8217;t let yourself be distracted.  This was never actually about PDA.  For one thing, the boys weren&#8217;t engaging in any.  They were trying to keep their relationship quiet.  For another, as myself and others have pointed out, a list of couples would be a useless tool for enforcing rules against PDA - but <i>that was never its intended purpose</i>.  The principal revealed her true agenda early on by asking for lists of &#8220;homo and hetero&#8221; couples.  This was about exposing homosexuals to public humiliation and harassment from the get-go.
</p>
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		<title>by: SixtiesLiberal</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/30/principal-outs-students-to-curb-pda/#comment-512944</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 14:44:08 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/30/principal-outs-students-to-curb-pda/#comment-512944</guid>
					<description>Last year a principal at a middle school (7th and 8th graders) in a D.C. suburb instituted a &quot;no touching&quot; policy.

&lt;blockquote&gt;All touching -- not only fighting or inappropriate touching -- is against the rules at Kilmer Middle School in Vienna. Hand-holding, handshakes and high-fives? Banned. The rule has been conveyed to students this way: &quot;NO PHYSICAL CONTACT!!!!!&quot;

. . . .

Deborah Hernandez, Kilmer's principal, said the rule makes sense in a school that was built for 850 students but houses 1,100. She said that students should have their personal space protected and that many lack the maturity to understand what is acceptable or welcome. 

&quot;You get into shades of gray,&quot; Hernandez said. &quot;The kids say, 'If he can high-five, then I can do this.' &quot; 
She has seen a poke escalate into a fight and a handshake that is a gang sign. Some students -- and these are friends -- play &quot;bloody knuckles,&quot; which involves slamming their knuckles together as hard as they can. Counselors have heard from girls who are uncomfortable hugging boys but embarrassed to tell anyone. And in a culturally diverse school, officials say, families might have different views of what is appropriate. 

It isn't as if hug police patrol the Kilmer hallways, Hernandez said. Usually an askance look from a teacher or a reminder to move along is enough to stop girls who are holding hands and giggling in a huddle or a boy who pats a buddy on the back. Students won't get busted if they high-five in class after answering a difficult math problem. 

Typically, she said, only repeat offenders or those breaking other rules are reprimanded. &quot;You have to have an absolute rule with students, and wiggle room and good judgment on behalf of the staff,&quot; Hernandez said. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/17/AR2007061701179.html

I have not seen an update on the story, so I don't know if the policy was changed for this past academic year.  

This was an instance of putting in an insane policy and allowing lax (and maybe selective) enforcement.  Not clearly thought through.  Young adolescents test limits constantly.  If an educator is tired of making judgments on what is or is not inappropriate or execessive PDA (or other limits-testing behavior) that educator should get out of the business of teaching adolescents.  
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Last year a principal at a middle school (7th and 8th graders) in a D.C. suburb instituted a &#8220;no touching&#8221; policy.</p>
	<blockquote><p>All touching &#8212; not only fighting or inappropriate touching &#8212; is against the rules at Kilmer Middle School in Vienna. Hand-holding, handshakes and high-fives? Banned. The rule has been conveyed to students this way: &#8220;NO PHYSICAL CONTACT!!!!!&#8221;</p>
	<p>. . . .</p>
	<p>Deborah Hernandez, Kilmer&#8217;s principal, said the rule makes sense in a school that was built for 850 students but houses 1,100. She said that students should have their personal space protected and that many lack the maturity to understand what is acceptable or welcome. </p>
	<p>&#8220;You get into shades of gray,&#8221; Hernandez said. &#8220;The kids say, &#8216;If he can high-five, then I can do this.&#8217; &#8221;<br />
She has seen a poke escalate into a fight and a handshake that is a gang sign. Some students &#8212; and these are friends &#8212; play &#8220;bloody knuckles,&#8221; which involves slamming their knuckles together as hard as they can. Counselors have heard from girls who are uncomfortable hugging boys but embarrassed to tell anyone. And in a culturally diverse school, officials say, families might have different views of what is appropriate. </p>
	<p>It isn&#8217;t as if hug police patrol the Kilmer hallways, Hernandez said. Usually an askance look from a teacher or a reminder to move along is enough to stop girls who are holding hands and giggling in a huddle or a boy who pats a buddy on the back. Students won&#8217;t get busted if they high-five in class after answering a difficult math problem. </p>
	<p>Typically, she said, only repeat offenders or those breaking other rules are reprimanded. &#8220;You have to have an absolute rule with students, and wiggle room and good judgment on behalf of the staff,&#8221; Hernandez said. </p></blockquote>
	<p><a href='http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/17/AR2007061701179.html' rel='nofollow'>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/17/AR2007061701179.html</a></p>
	<p>I have not seen an update on the story, so I don&#8217;t know if the policy was changed for this past academic year.  </p>
	<p>This was an instance of putting in an insane policy and allowing lax (and maybe selective) enforcement.  Not clearly thought through.  Young adolescents test limits constantly.  If an educator is tired of making judgments on what is or is not inappropriate or execessive PDA (or other limits-testing behavior) that educator should get out of the business of teaching adolescents.
</p>
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		<title>by: Ms Kate</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/30/principal-outs-students-to-curb-pda/#comment-512903</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 13:09:36 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/30/principal-outs-students-to-curb-pda/#comment-512903</guid>
					<description>Yes, you see, because Parents Aren't Doing Their Jobs (tm) and, therefore, the school administrators must extend their authority into the homes of the students because Parents Aren't Doing Their Jobs(tm) and that makes the Jobs of Teachers and Adminstrators That Much Harder (tm).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yes, you see, because Parents Aren&#8217;t Doing Their Jobs &#8482; and, therefore, the school administrators must extend their authority into the homes of the students because Parents Aren&#8217;t Doing Their Jobs(tm) and that makes the Jobs of Teachers and Adminstrators That Much Harder &#8482;.
</p>
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		<title>by: seeker6079</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/30/principal-outs-students-to-curb-pda/#comment-512899</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 13:01:16 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/30/principal-outs-students-to-curb-pda/#comment-512899</guid>
					<description>Noted, seraph.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Noted, seraph.
</p>
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		<title>by: seeker6079</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/30/principal-outs-students-to-curb-pda/#comment-512898</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 12:59:17 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/30/principal-outs-students-to-curb-pda/#comment-512898</guid>
					<description>seraph, I think that you're kinda missing the point.  Take your HS as a comparative.  The teachers &quot;didn’t feel the need to interfere unless the PDA was at a groping, trading tongues, on-the-way-to-dry-humping stage&quot; .  Okay, that's the rule for hets.  These two gay kids showed little if any of that and what they did show was way away from the school, but the principal started demanding lists, outing them to their parents and feeling free to comment openly about her distaste for gays.  She did not respond to their behaviour but &lt;i&gt;went after them because of who they are.&lt;/i&gt;.  What your HS did or didn't do react to within its own walls isn't at all relevant to an exercise in proactive bigotry that reaches out into private lives.

(And don't kid yourself.  The systems are full of conservatives who &lt;b&gt;haaaaaaaaaaaaate&lt;/b&gt; the idea that they can't tell the kids what to do all of the time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>seraph, I think that you&#8217;re kinda missing the point.  Take your HS as a comparative.  The teachers &#8220;didn’t feel the need to interfere unless the PDA was at a groping, trading tongues, on-the-way-to-dry-humping stage&#8221; .  Okay, that&#8217;s the rule for hets.  These two gay kids showed little if any of that and what they did show was way away from the school, but the principal started demanding lists, outing them to their parents and feeling free to comment openly about her distaste for gays.  She did not respond to their behaviour but <i>went after them because of who they are.</i>.  What your HS did or didn&#8217;t do react to within its own walls isn&#8217;t at all relevant to an exercise in proactive bigotry that reaches out into private lives.</p>
	<p>(And don&#8217;t kid yourself.  The systems are full of conservatives who <b>haaaaaaaaaaaaate</b> the idea that they can&#8217;t tell the kids what to do all of the time.
</p>
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		<title>by: Seraph</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/30/principal-outs-students-to-curb-pda/#comment-512895</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 12:56:28 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/30/principal-outs-students-to-curb-pda/#comment-512895</guid>
					<description>Besides, Eric, as I pointed out to Mold, &lt;i&gt;PDA is not the point&lt;/i&gt;.  PDA is an excuse that a bigoted principal is using to bully and endanger two gay students.  Mold injecting a (truly disgusting) defense of PDA rules themselves is at best missing the point, and more likely setting up some kind of strawman or threadjack.  Don't play into his hands.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Besides, Eric, as I pointed out to Mold, <i>PDA is not the point</i>.  PDA is an excuse that a bigoted principal is using to bully and endanger two gay students.  Mold injecting a (truly disgusting) defense of PDA rules themselves is at best missing the point, and more likely setting up some kind of strawman or threadjack.  Don&#8217;t play into his hands.
</p>
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