In Tennessee, an attempt to curtail PDA in school leads to outing young people. This is wrong on so many levels.
A public high school principal who posted the names of two boys on a list of students believed to be couples, revealing their relationship to their parents as well as other students and teachers, violated the students’ constitutional right to freedom of association, the American Civil Liberties Union charged Tuesday.In a letter to school board officials in Memphis, the ACLU demanded that the school reprimand the principal and take steps to ensure such actions never happen again.
In September of 2007, the principal at Hollis F. Price Middle College High told teachers she wanted the names of all student couples, “hetero and homo,” because she wanted to monitor them personally to prevent students from engaging in public displays of affection.
The two students now represented by the ACLU, Andrew and Nicholas (who have asked that their last names not be revealed), were two A students who had been seeing each other for a short time and were attempting to keep their relationship quiet and private.
65 Responses to “Principal ‘outs’ students to curb PDA”
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So, what’s w/the principal not being named?
How is it that adults trying to get their ogle on at underage couples manages to not set off alarm bells for so much of the rest of the population? I mean, seriously, busting out with “I want a list of all student couples so that I can personally monitor them for instances of sexual contact” to another school official really should have been the end of this idea.
Um … humbert humbert should have been a high school administrator. Pederasty and Voyeurism … together again!
This is ridiculous; the outing of high school kids is reserved for the graffiti on bathroom walls.
If you’re trying to quell public displays of affection then by definition the displays of affection have to actually be PUBLIC. If the principal had to be told who was a couple, then any displays of affection had to have been PRIVATE. I mean I thought the rules against PDA’s in high school were stupid when I was in high school, but I understood the idea was that watching people make out in front of everybody could be distracting. But if you’re keeping your relationship quiet then you are not distracting anyone and no one should “keep an eye on you” just in case. This is ridiculous.
Also, how dumb is this principal? Teachers making lists? Lordy, by the time she printed that list, it was out of date. You want to know who’s dating who, the kids have put it all up on the web! Get a facebook account, moron.
Because, you know, creepy old pervs like her should be stalking the kids’ sex lives like a NORMAL creepy old perv. Not enlisting teachers into it.
“Andrew and Nicholas (who have asked that their last names not be revealed),”
Who will be the first right wing blogger to take that as a challenge?
The scarlet lettering is a secondary issue compared to this:
How homophobic is the community in question, and/or the students’ parents?
If it’s bad, a reckless endangerment charge may be in order.
Daphne Beasley is the principal. School info at link.
http://www.k-12.state.tn.us/sde/DetailSchool.asp?bu_id=6131
Maybe I should know this, but what does PDA stand for in this context?
I went to a public high school in Manhattan in the 1980s.
There was no rule against people kissing in the hall.
Julian - “public displays of affection”
I went to a public high school in Manhattan in the 1980s.
There was no rule against people kissing in the hall.
I thought the conservative christian ideal was that you married your high school sweetheart and started making babies immediately.
How are you supposed to HAVE a high school sweetheart if they won’t let you?
These people are infantile - everything is black and white, good or evil, leaders are daddies, infallible, looked up to… and childhood lasts until marriage… and even after that, as you head off to church, ignorant and sheep-like.
Infantile mentality.
Julian - “public displays of affection”
I went to a public high school in Manhattan in the 1980s.
There was no rule against people kissing in the hall.
PDA - Public Displays of Affection….
Julian, I know where you’re comin’ from. I’ve never run across that particular acronym.
Pam,
I think there’s much more to consider in this story. Here is the schools statistical information.
As you can see, this school is all African American student population, from a district with a median income of probably $12,000 (in a good year), and the average age in the district is 24, with only 6% holding a college degree. The whole school is a total of about 130 student. They serve grades 9-11, as they are only three years old, and don’t yet have a senior class.
Now, let’s review this story; The principal, Daphne Beasley, is outing two young african american males, into this climate.
Now, having said that, Ms. Beasley also appears to be doing an amazing job at her school. It has been fight free for its entire existence, and the rate at which they are advancing students in math and science, not just at the mandated levels, but also at a high rate of advanced learning levels is remarkable.
I think the discussion is maybe a bit more complicated here than the story that’s posted, which is not a criticism of the story, but an opportunity for discussion on perhaps what and how many rights should students expected to give up in order to have a successful learning environment, if indeed, one assumes that is the principal’s method to this madness. And is it possible that by putting all couple on notice, that she may be providing breathing room for some young women and men who are feeling pressured to have sex, to say something along the lines of “not now, I’m trying to get an education.”
To be clear, I am not condoning anything, just opening up the floor for some more info, and if people wish, discussion.
Also to be clear, I think that the actions of the principal in this case have the real possibility of putting the health and welfare of the gay students outed, in danger.
The name of the principal is Daphne Beasley.
http://www.aclu.org/images/asset_upload_file995_35092.pdf
I have a question: why are there so many stories about school principals doing insane things? Who are these people? What, exactly, is wrong with the system that people who make such poor decisions so often wind up in decision-making positions? And how could someone possibly make a career out of being principal of a high school while finding PDA’s by high school students, for fuck’s sake, so strange and threatening? I would seriously like to know the answer to these questions.
Apparently, the offenders were “sitting in a tree.”
genoasail, you can provide useful information and still be wrong. The principal is not doing a good job. The entire basis of our sex-phobic culture is that people can indulge in all kinds of sexual activity as long as it remains secret. If you propagate a rumor, true or false, it travels up the chain to where rumors become more powerful. So bathroom graffiti gives way to official lists gives way to, i don’t know, armbands or scarlet letters or something. It’s part of the Ted-Haggard culture we’ve been living in these past few decades, and as the fundies like to say, now they’re going after our children.
I wanted to say something snarky here about the insinuation that poor black folk are too stupid and over sexed to be able to study without getting down, but is there a point to be made about the cycle of MSM’s (I’m looking at you, MTV) portrayal of african americans and how that informs their ideas about what sort of behavior is expected of them? Or am I just being stupid?
If I taught at that school, I’d have recruited my students to provide that list. Danny Zucko would be on it. As would Ricky Cunningham, Ferris Buehler, Napoleon Dynamite, Steve Urkel, Hannah Montana, and anyone else to whom the students wished to be paired. And I’d submit it with great faux sincerity, asking that the student who is dating a certain Ms. Juno be especially watched after.
And that’s why I won’t ever be a teacher.
The prinicpal is not trying to curb PDAs; she is trying to curb homosexuality. Probably Hmph!ed at the newspaper while reading about a gay student getting killed and decided that SHE knew how to “cure” teh gayz in her school.
Intolerant assholes need to be called out, especially when they are violating the rights of children.
plentynuff wrote, What, exactly, is wrong with the system that people who make such poor decisions so often wind up in decision-making positions?
There’s nothing particular to that system; it affects all human systems.
If you follow politics or corporate scandals, or have had your share of bosses who are total a**holes, you’ll know what I mean.
At my school (in the 80s), there was a rule on the books against “interdigitation.” Yep, that’s holding hands.
The rule is probably still on the books, although then, as now, I’m sure few people realize it exists, and no one pays it any attention…
Yup- my early 1980’s HS had the same widely ignored rule. Didn’t stop me and my BF from making out behind the gym/stage every morning, though- the gym teacher would just yell at us to cut it out and get to our classrooms when we got caught.
I saw “PDA” and thought “Personal Digital Assistant,” - and the local high school recently sought public comment on banning cell phones.
Daphne, oh, Daphne - you’ve been led astray and forgotten your duty as principal is to support the education of your students, not initiate a witch hunt on behalf of the homophobes. Makes me wonder what the grade point averages and graduation rates are for this little corner of the world…
130 kids and she needs teachers to make that list for her? Talk about out of touch.
An update on the kids: apparantly one of them has been “disinvited” from a school trip to help rebuild New Orleans:
I hope they both sue. And I hope Nicholas sues double. These are kids. Here’s this kid trying to help out and some adult pulls him from the trip for some shit he might do, which isn’t even harmful to begin with? That ought to be ‘embarrassing to the school.
Must be very confusing for kids to attend a school named “Middle College High”.
Or maybe it’s an amazing place where kids pass middle school, high school, and college all in 3 years.
Keeping list of couples in high school is crazy. The list would have to be updated hourly. And imagine if the list fell in to the wrong hands, “Hey! I thought you were dating me? Who is this Ralph guy?!” And imagine the pressure to get on that list!
Anyway, I suppose if you are going to keep a list of dating couples then it would be considered homophobic to not consider gay couples as dating, wouldn’t it?
But if your goal is simply to avoid PDA’s, why do you need the names of the couples? If you walk down the hall and find two people kissing do you check to see if they are on the list before you tell them to stop? And it can’t be that you are going to set schedules to keep them away from each other because of the fact that high school romances can last 20 minutes.
If you trying to avoid any PDA then would it be fair to say that you won’t tolerate any heterosexuality either?
I have a feeling that either 1) this is one of those ideas that sound really good in your head but then once you try to actually implement it, it doesn’t turn out the way you planned, or 2) the teacher is a anti-homosexual twit who was using the list as an excuse to find out if any gay couples were in her school. Based on the quote above, I’m willing to bet that #2 is more likely.
Ms. Beasley also appears to be doing an amazing job at her school. * * * I think the discussion is maybe a bit more complicated here than the story that’s posted, which is not a criticism of the story, but an opportunity for discussion on perhaps what and how many rights should students expected to give up in order to have a successful learning environment,
Hitler built an amazingly good highway system, Mussolini made the trains run on time, and Ms. Beasley is doing a wonderful job with some aspects of being a principal.
Do you not understand that outing a young gay couple could get them beten or killed?
It’s called “failing upwards.” Ask someone who’s been in the Army, for example. When a soldier is bad at his/her job, often times they are promoted to get them out of the way …
plentynuff,
You make a good point about just exactly what sort of people end up as principals or school administrators. Would you or any rational, stable person you know WANT to be a high school principal? I don’t think our educational system is designed to attract the cream-of-the-crop–and certainly not in administrative positions. The stellar educators who can be found in its midst are there because of their personal conviction to education and willingness to devote their life to a job that provides more personal satisfaction than financial reward or glory. School administrators are like administrators everywhere else–generally promoted based on seniority and their demonstrated ability to play the political game well, rather than on their exceptional abilities (not always the case, but common enough in human organizations to have earned a nickname–the Peter Principle). Would it be too much to expect that these ‘leaders’ be thoroughly vetted for psych issues before we put them in charge of vulnerable populations? Who is more psychologically vulnerable than an insecure adolescent?
genoasail,
You also make good arguments that unfortunately are completely overshadowed by this woman’s clear lack of basic common sense and demonstrated ignorance of adolescent development. The courts have held that while in school, the relationship between school staff and students is considered in loco parentis, meaning adult staff members are obligated to demonstrate the same level of care and responsibility that could reasonably be expected of a parent. With the exception of a few malignant individuals, no parent would expose their child to public ridicule or potential harm in such a thoughtless and reckless way. The fragility and instability of the adolescent ego is universally known. No one who has been an adolescent themselves is exempted from understanding this. From this standpoint, even though she may do a good job in other areas, she failed at one of her most basic obligations. And she was unnecessarily cruel, to boot.
plentynuff,
You make a good point about just exactly what sort of people end up as principals or school administrators. Would you or any rational, stable person you know WANT to be a high school principal? I don’t think our educational system is designed to attract the cream-of-the-crop–and certainly not in administrative positions. The stellar educators who can be found in its midst are there because of their personal conviction to education and willingness to devote their life to a job that provides more personal satisfaction than financial reward or glory. School administrators are like administrators everywhere else–generally promoted based on seniority and their demonstrated ability to play the political game well, rather than on their exceptional abilities (not always the case, but common enough in human organizations to have earned a nickname–the Peter Principle). Would it be too much to expect that these ‘leaders’ be thoroughly vetted for psych issues before we put them in charge of vulnerable populations? Who is more psychologically vulnerable than an insecure adolescent?
genoasail,
You also make good arguments that unfortunately are completely overshadowed by this woman’s clear lack of basic common sense and demonstrated ignorance of adolescent development. The courts have held that while in school, the relationship between school staff and students is considered in loco parentis, meaning adult staff members are obligated to demonstrate the same level of care and responsibility that could reasonably be expected of a parent. With the exception of a few malignant individuals, no parent would expose their child to public ridicule or potential harm in such a thoughtless and reckless way. The fragility and instability of the adolescent ego is universally known. No one who has been an adolescent themselves is exempted from understanding this. From this standpoint, even though she may do a good job in other areas, she failed at one of her most basic obligations. And she was unnecessarily cruel, to boot.
I think that excessive curiosity about which teenagers are fucking whom is a symptom that the person making the query has unhealthy aspirations and is engaged in obsessive behavior, tendency toward fetishistic with pedophilliac leanings. Perhaps the police should investigate.
how about an anti spam measure that can actually be read?
I find it exceedingly difficult to read these random numbers/letters and to discern which of them is a legitimate part of the code, versus random scratches.
I think that excessive curiosity about which teenagers are fucking whom is a symptom that the person making the query has unhealthy aspirations and is engaged in obsessive behavior, tendency toward fetishistic with pedophilliac leanings. Perhaps the police should investigate.
renska,
“Interdigitation” sounds like a word Monty Burns would come up with. I think it may be my new favorite word, actually. “Come, dear, the elders are away, let us engage in some interdigitation…”
Stephen,
“Failing upwards” definitely happens. However, I think that in education, what often happens as well is promotion by attrition. Some teachers just stay in one place forever, especially in bad or middling schools where the better teachers may eventually move on to greener pastures. Then when a promotion comes up, the teacher with seniority gets preference, regardless of their managerial or psychological qualifications.
The head of our science department at my high school was older than god and had lost every marble he once possessed, but he was senior, and had a strong hand in the curriculum, much to our chagrin. Combine longevity with a bit of authoritarian impulse, and you set the stage for the sort of dumbassery going on in the school referenced above.
That woman needs to smacked up-side the head, and then publicly fired at a school board meeting.
I went through a gay witch hunt several years ago, and it wasn’t pretty. I was long past high school and college, it happened at my place of employment. It was an awful experience and it felt like my whole world was falling apart. I handled it in a very dignified way, stood up for myself and never would let anyone assume I was ashamed of myself, even though I was told I should be. After 6 months of hell, I was fired on ‘moral’ grounds.
I don’t know how these young people are coping with this situation, but it must be a strain on such young people. If I could contact these young people, I’d tell them to hang tough, keep your chin up and don’t let the bastards get you down. I’m not a religious/praying kind of guy, but I’ll be thinking about them, wishing them all the best life can give.
Please, Pam, make sure we get updates on this.
Our SD has rules against PDA as it tends to distract from the task of learning. If we left the horny buggers alone not only would there be a marked increase in unplanned pregnancies, they wouldn’t learn a blessed thing.
And oh, the whining. Petulant little entitleds that they are.
I’d actually let them indulge if only to have labor cheap enough to meet the Chinese Price (it’s a book). Unwed babymommies and shiftless babydaddies work for far less.
Let’s make this abundantly simple, shall we?
Kids making out in the hallways = Daphney Beastly’s business to discipline them in an appropriate manner for inappropriate behavior (not for being a couple - for coupling in school).
Kids engaging in social connections and even sexual relations outside of school = Daphne needs to mind her own goddamn business
That clear enough a boundary??? What about low income girls/women dating much older guys … is that okay because they aren’t a “couple” in school?
GMAFB
As for “what makes principles act so stupid” the answer is simple - they need to get a fucking life - travel, go play with some grownups, rotate responsibilities, deintrench themselves from overly intensively local lives sheltered by tradition, etc.
You know, Louise, interdigitation could escalate to osculation, with a certain ratio progressing to felatio!
“You know, Louise, interdigitation could escalate to osculation, with a certain ratio progressing to felatio!”
…so, what you’re saying is interdigitation is a gateway behavior.
Maybe it should be banned at the federal level? We can’t afford to wait and let these things get out of hand…
:)
It’s a culture where people can be denied some pretty basic rights (the right to earn a living [see james], the right to marry, the right to be secure from bodily violence) because of being gay. What makes this principal a pretty typical bureaucrat-with-too-much-power is that she gave not a whit of thought to the consequences of outing these kids, no thought to proportionate response. (Of course, that she felt that she was entitled to respond speaks to her stupidity: as others have pointed out here it was none of her damned business.)
Have you ever noticed that petty tyrants — asshole bureaucrats, either private or public sector — are massive fans of “considered action” and “proper channels” (read DELAY!) when it means them actually getting off their asses and doing their job or the decent thing, but they have no problems racing towards stupid things if it’s what appeals to their tiny, hack little minds? There was a school in Oregon which, hearing from the cops that a specific symbol shaved into the eyebrows was a gang symbol instantly suspended a number of students for having wholly different eyebrow shavings. The suspensions were humiliating and instant. The principal, interviewed on CBC, spoke of perhaps reconsidering the policy after a thorough review process. (Translation: while punishment for students for doing nothing wrong is instant even considering reining in asshole authoritarians must be done with glacial, ponderous due consideration.)
Too long a post. But I’ve realy had it up to here with the petty dictators that seem to gravitate to these positions.
Mike, we will have to institute a “see something say something” program so people can finger offenders
HEE!!! I wanna a shirt that sez:
“I was a FINGERED Offender!!!”
Wow, Mold. That’s…both amazingly vile and entirely beside the point.
No one is arguing that there shouldn’t be rules against PDA in schools. However:
1) The “list of couples” is an entirely useless tool for trying to enforce those rules, because it’s a) an exercise in futility to try to keep such a list properly updated and b)it doesn’t have anything to do with who is actually committing PDA. As someone pointed out, when a teacher sees someone making out in the hall, are they supposed to check the list before they tell them to quit?
2) The issue at hand is that a school principal used this list to “out” two gay students (who, if she outed them, were not committing PDA), exposing them to harassment and possibly even danger. She’s certainly doing enough harassing herself.
3) Andrew and Nicholas aren’t liable to produce many unplanned pregnancies between themselves.
BTW, I don’t stop in here as often as I once did. Is Mold always like this? Am I feeding a troll?
Anybody else smell something? I think we need to clear out some Mold…
serena kitt, that made me grin.
Here’s the email addresses for the Memphis City School Board of Commissioners (thanks to Dr X).
hartt@mcsk12.net, jonesmartaviusd@mcsk12.net, williamsf@mcsk12.net, whalumkennetht@mcsk12.net, gatewoods@mcsk12.net, MallottBettyJ@mcsk12.net, robinsonp@mcsk12.net, warrenj@mcsk12.net, webbsharona@mcsk12.net
Seraph -
“No one is arguing that there shouldn’t be rules against PDA in schools.”
If students want to kiss in the hall when they don’t need to be in class, that is no one else’s business.
And here is their website if anyone wants to include their names
http://www.memphis-schools.k12.tn.us/admin/communications/board.htm
Maybe, maybe not. But since when do teenagers stop at kissing? The teachers in my HS (minus a few hardasses) didn’t feel the need to interfere unless the PDA was at a groping, trading tongues, on-the-way-to-dry-humping stage. They needed to interfere quite often.
We won’t even talk about what went on backstage, in the fly deck. That sort of thing goes straight past school rules against PDA and straight to indecent exposure and public lewdness.
Maybe, maybe not. But since when do teenagers stop at kissing? The teachers in my HS (minus a few hardasses) didn’t feel the need to interfere unless the PDA was at a groping, trading tongues, on-the-way-to-dry-humping stage. They needed to interfere quite often.
We won’t even talk about what went on backstage, in the fly deck. That sort of thing goes straight past school rules against PDA and straight to indecent exposure and public lewdness.
Besides, Eric, as I pointed out to Mold, PDA is not the point. PDA is an excuse that a bigoted principal is using to bully and endanger two gay students. Mold injecting a (truly disgusting) defense of PDA rules themselves is at best missing the point, and more likely setting up some kind of strawman or threadjack. Don’t play into his hands.
seraph, I think that you’re kinda missing the point. Take your HS as a comparative. The teachers “didn’t feel the need to interfere unless the PDA was at a groping, trading tongues, on-the-way-to-dry-humping stage” . Okay, that’s the rule for hets. These two gay kids showed little if any of that and what they did show was way away from the school, but the principal started demanding lists, outing them to their parents and feeling free to comment openly about her distaste for gays. She did not respond to their behaviour but went after them because of who they are.. What your HS did or didn’t do react to within its own walls isn’t at all relevant to an exercise in proactive bigotry that reaches out into private lives.
(And don’t kid yourself. The systems are full of conservatives who haaaaaaaaaaaaate the idea that they can’t tell the kids what to do all of the time.
Noted, seraph.
Yes, you see, because Parents Aren’t Doing Their Jobs ™ and, therefore, the school administrators must extend their authority into the homes of the students because Parents Aren’t Doing Their Jobs(tm) and that makes the Jobs of Teachers and Adminstrators That Much Harder ™.
Last year a principal at a middle school (7th and 8th graders) in a D.C. suburb instituted a “no touching” policy.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/17/AR2007061701179.html
I have not seen an update on the story, so I don’t know if the policy was changed for this past academic year.
This was an instance of putting in an insane policy and allowing lax (and maybe selective) enforcement. Not clearly thought through. Young adolescents test limits constantly. If an educator is tired of making judgments on what is or is not inappropriate or execessive PDA (or other limits-testing behavior) that educator should get out of the business of teaching adolescents.
Clearly absurd, SL, but again, beside the point. Don’t let yourself be distracted. This was never actually about PDA. For one thing, the boys weren’t engaging in any. They were trying to keep their relationship quiet. For another, as myself and others have pointed out, a list of couples would be a useless tool for enforcing rules against PDA - but that was never its intended purpose. The principal revealed her true agenda early on by asking for lists of “homo and hetero” couples. This was about exposing homosexuals to public humiliation and harassment from the get-go.
Sixties Liberal, that policy you reference doesn’t seem anywhere near as bad as the stupidity in the original post. It targets actual behavior and responds to a specific set of problems compounded by crowding. I believe my sons have a modified version of that rule in their grade school and middle school, which include children from a diverse array of backgrounds and socioeconomic status. It isn’t a bad approach to make it clear that you are expected to keep your hands to yourself or else.
The “list of couples” approach is stupid if curbing actual sexual display behavior is the goal. If PDA was a problem, then hauling dry humpers and spit swappers to the principal’s office for discipline is the appropriate policy (Before a PDA ban in my high school in 1982, we had kids dry humping and sticking hands down pants in every hallway. Yuck!). It isn’t appropriate to make out in most public places. Going after “couples” is going after off-campus behavior and therefore deserves all the derision it gets.
Point was that PDA needs to be policed within the confines of school-appropriate behaviors. We are training them to be adults, not entitled lordlings.
Our SD has PDA rules that are consistent and enforced. We expect adult behavior and discipline when needed.
That said, we also had a Day of Silence for the recently passed child. Some of our students kept quiet and others attempted to bully them into speech. This was not tolerated.
As far as outing students, this is contrary to school policy and is grounds for dismissal. My own philosophy is such that the term, “that’s so gay”, is cause for immediate warning and will go to discipline for a second infraction.
This is Whitest Whitesylvania and many instructors are not as proactive in their LGBT tolerance. But then, I time debates to keep the playing field level. Banning speech is fascist and usually done when your arguments are weak. Along with ad hominem.
OK, Mold, so your point was that your school is disciplined, yet enlightened. Thanks for sharing.
One thing - if you’re an educator, I recommend you seek out a different line of work. If you’re not, I don’t recommend you take it up. Considering that venomous hatred for the students that you keep voicing, it’s not a job that you’re well-suited for. You’d be happier elsewhere.
A lttle late on this thread, but just finding Pandagon, as PHB is my #1 blog.
Two other problems here.
1) ACLU is way too slow to do anything about high school rules, and presumably for legal reasons never told anyone else about the problem!
2) Memphis is having a Pride Celebration, so some are out there.
When I first read this I forwarded it to PFLAG…. who had NOT heard of the case.
That is just wrong. That is who should be handling this, community members.
They are on it now, so I hope for some good news… and at least some quality and equality ‘education’ to be taking place at that school.
Just another wingnut homophobe in denial… she should move to OK City and join Sally K… after all they are both ‘educators.’ … what a horrific thought.