Ah, Birmingham’s in the news again as a result of the airing of 20/20’s experiment on public displays of affection by same-sex couples last Friday. We’re not talking about public sex, mind you, just arms around the shoulder and some nuzzling kind of thing. A male couple was stationed on a park bench at Five-Points with a camera rolling. Wouldn’t you know it — someone called 911 to complain about the PDA. The emergency?
Operator: “Birmingham Police operator 9283″Yes, they sent a patrol car down there, and the officer, after calling his superior (the Birmingham PD was in on the 20/20 experiment) backed down, but told the couple “Just don’t do that in public.”Caller: “We have a couple of men sitting out on the bench that have been kissing and drooling all over each other for the past hour or so. It’s not against the law, right?”
Operator: “Not to the best of my knowledge it’s not.”
Caller: “So there’s no complaint I could make or have?”
Operator: “I imagine you could complain if you like ma’am. We can always send an officer down there.”
The remarks of two Birmingham women passersby when 20/20 has a lesbian couple sit on the bench are predictable. That’s below the fold.
When Leslie and Ashby sit, hold hands and snuggle, two local women volunteer their thoughts about the PDA:
“I just don’t want to see the same sex kissing.”
“It’s not what we say, it’s what God says. The chances of them going to heaven may not be very good if they continue this lifestyle.”
Of course it never occurs to that last woman that the two lesbians may not share the same faith/belief system she does. I wonder what Kathy at Birmingham Blues will have to say about this. Anyway, contrast that with the reaction of Verona, New Jersey residents when the experiment was performed there.
It seems that people who were strolling through Verona Park during the filming of the social experiment were either indifferent to, in support of, or slightly bothered by the PDA they witnessed. There were no extreme reactions. A topic that did come up repeatedly was children.So, what does this all mean? The 20/20 report is interesting, but it plays into some of the pre-conceived notions about the South in a way that is a bit disingenuous. Of course it’s easy just to say the average resident of Birmingham is homobigoted, but that’s too pat, as someone who’s a native Southerner. (I do have to say that the 911 call is over the top by any stretch of the imagination. Birmingham tax dollars at work.)“I don’t really find it inappropriate, especially during the day when schoolchildren aren’t running around. They might get confused and want an answer for what’s going on,” bystander Mary-Kate told us. The majority of the people who spoke about children seemed to echo Mary-Kate’s feelings. They are indifferent to gay PDA but did not want to, or know how to, address homosexuality with children.
And then there was Kristin Kenneavy, who said, “I would actually want our kids to grow up in a place where they would see various types of people engaging in behaviors that [are] loving. As I walk by, I’m thinking ‘Oh, that’s sweet,’ you know, that people are in love. I would have absolutely not a problem with our children seeing something like that.”
Yes, Alabama isn’t NC (Kate and I can hold hands in public), but generally speaking, people down here tend to be more modest, regardless of sexual orientation, so I’m not surprised at the reaction to same-sex couples. The discomfort threshold is much lower down South than it would be for straight couple PDA because it isn’t the norm yet.
I’d hazard a guess that if a man and a woman were pawing each other in a more sexual manner, people would be as uncomfortable with that as the more chaste PDA in the experiment, but, quite frankly, if this was 20 years ago, you might have seen violence as a response to gay PDA. Heck, it still happens all around the country — even in large cities — if the wrong yahoos witness it.
47 Responses to “Alabama: 20/20 experiment on gay PDA generates 911 call”
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Good analysis. I have the same discomfort with PDA as a measure of tolerance for gay people. That’s a common question in GLBTQ sensitivity training, and I have a hard time knowing how to say, “I respond to all couples with the same level of discomfort.” Calling 911 is definitely over the top though.
Yeah, calling 911 for gay PDA is a bit much. And it is pretty bad that they would show that North/South distinction - I live in a progressive part of my town in a northern state, where gay people holding hands can be spotted, and it’s not a big deal, although there are places that if I were gay, I would not be comfortable doing that. I had a friend that grew up in central rural Wisconsin, and she always feared holding hands with her girlfriend because there were some very homophobic people where she lived. Most people here wouldn’t call 911 on it though - but they would say or do something confrontational to the “offending” couple. I would say that calling 911 but not yelling or harrassing the people would actually be a step up as far that’s concerned - there are a lot of people who would be confrontational about that sort of thing, and not just Southerners.
I’m not comfortable with some het PDA, but honestly, I consider that my problem, and as long as there’s adults involved and they’re not having sex right there, I have the choice to ignore it.
“They [the children] might get confused and want an answer for what’s going on,”
Yeah, God forbid they explain anything to their kids.
Birmingham tax dollars at work
Amen. I guess there are no unsolved murders/robberies/rapes in Birmingham for police officers to work on. Must be nice.
I must say I’ve never really understood the American discomfort with PDA’s. I mean, sure, so long as they’re not excessive, to me it’s like “awww, that’s sweet” regardless of the gender of those participating.
But, I know that regardless of my lack of understanding, it’s a cultural difference about the country I live in so I’ve got to accept it. Just like how religious you all are.
That said, mind you, even here in the supposed liberal blue island of Chicago, I’ve noticed anti-gay attitudes towards even the most mild of PDA’s from gays and lesbians. There was once a teenage lesbian couple on the subway simply holding hands, and a woman was glaring at them and about to say something really nasty, until I caught her eye and made sure my facial expression conveyed the idea that if she did, she would have me to contend with. She huffed and didn’t say anything.
But I’ve been harassed and physically assaulted for holding the hand of the woman I am dating, when all the straight couples on the same street were doing the same thing. I think it’s really good that a television show would get into such, although I am disappointed that they would slip into such a simplistic meme as ‘North vs. South’.
Although, I have to say, I would be scared to hold the hand of the woman I dating in Birmingham. Or hell, even in NC Pam.
“Excuse me, officer, this straight guy won’t stop bugging me for a date.”
Dude, how paranoid and freaky do you have to be to call the cops at the sight of some affection.
I do wish that they hadn’t made the two choices Alabama and New Jersey–that just exacerbates the whole conservative south versus liberal northeast attitudes. How about pointing out that there are gay-friendly places in the middle of the country as well? Or even noting that there are gay-unfriendly places other than the south?
“They [the children] might get confused and want an answer for what’s going on,”
Funny, as a kid I don’t remember ever getting my nose bent out of joint when/if I saw two grown men or women holding hands, walking arm in arm, snuggling, etc. As a kid it didn’t seem weird that adults of the same sex would never show physical affection for each other (though being a kid, I’m not sure I ascribed sexual feelings to it).
I do, however, remember what it was that inspired me to ask my parents, “what does ‘gay’ mean?”
It was right wing talk radio.
I also remember what inspired me to ask my parents, “what’s a dyke?”
It was being called one by other kids who heard their parents using that term. I was 8 years old.
As a kid it didn’t seem weird that adults of the same sex would
nevershow physical affection for each other (though being a kid, I’m not sure I ascribed sexual feelings to it).Sorry, typo.
@#4:
Well, not quite…, but then God is on the case for those…
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/04/you_have_my_sympathies_birming.php
Apologies if this is a repeat — previous submission didn’t seem to go through….
@#4:
Well, not quite…, but then God is on the case for those…
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/04/you_have_my_sympathies_birming.php
What’s missing in this discussion though is that the Five-Points neighborhood of Birmingham seems to be very gay-friendly. It’s a funky, happening urban scene. I’m sure 20/20 picked it because of that dynamic.
I’m speaking from my limited 3 day experience last weekend (!) staying in that neighborhood.
I’m actually way more comfortable with gay PDA than with het PDA, probably because my general happiness at seeing people feel safe to be publicly out totally overwhelms the “Oh, barf at all the cutesy-cute” response (which is my usual first response to seeing het couples get all nuzzly in public).
I was so happy in Boston on the day same-sex marriages began to be performed, and when I went to Paris, because I was seeing as much or more gay PDA as het PDA.
I’m reminded of Lance Mannion’s article about how conservatives are people who just want to be able to call the cops on anything that offends them. I can’t get in the head of someone who feels you should be in jail for kissing.
The “what about the children?!” nonsense makes me irritable. The only reason children would be uncomfortable with same sex couples is if their parents teach them to be. It’s probably harder to explain heterosexuality to a kid than to explain why someone would kiss a same sex friend.
Huh. I called 9-1-1 just last week because there was a het couple fucking in a minivan parked next to a damn playground. They’d gathered an audience.
On the PDA comfort level, I dunno. I suppose it’s a matter of context. Some places—like museums and parks—were made for kissing.
I just had this discussion with one of my very, very Christian relatives the other day. She used the “what do I tell the children” line and I stated the things mentioned above.
Then, just a few minutes later, I happened to pick up a children’s book at her house that she regularly reads to her children. It was called “101 Bible Stories for Children” or something like that. I randomly flipped it open to a story about Isaac’s twin sons, Essau and Jacob. Well, aparently, one twin was loved by the father and the other the mother. And then lying, cheating, manipulating and violence ensued. Finally, to save her favored son’s life from the unfavored and wronged brother, the mother had to send her son into hiding to prevent from being killed by the brother or father. (OK, I could be getting some of this wrong, I’m not all that Bible literate, but point being, it was some nasty shit going on that she was reading to her four year old.)
Obviously, the point came up. “You can’t explain two women kissing to your kids but you expose them to this? How on earth do you explain this?” No way in hell I’d read that crap to my four year old. Every one is killing their brother and mother and God is looking on like a petulant spoilt brat. I’d rather my kids walk by a park full of homosexual PDAing.
I must say I’ve never really understood the American discomfort with PDA’s. - Sarah
As far as this American goes, my discomfort is all about envy, plain and simple. If I’m seeing a PDA it’s someone else who’s getting affection while I’m not.
I don’t think this is what is at root with most Americans. Because if I see a gay couple engaging in a PDA or an elderly couple, I’m not envious because I’m neither gay nor elderly … so why should I care if they are hugging and acting cutesy. OTOH, if I see some dude acting all lovey-dovey with his hawt gf, back in my single days all I could think of was “dang! I wish I had a hawt gf” and now that I am married (but living away from my wife until I can get a job where she lives) all I can think of is “dang! lucky ducks — I wish I were with my hawt wife and doing that”.
OTOH, the stereotypical American evidently is most upset with gay PDAs or PDAs of people who are too old?
Amen to that, Leora. It’s not the specific content of wingnuttery that pisses me off, it’s the seemingly pathological aversion to self-analysis of any kind. The Bible is filled with stories of murder, genocide, anger, hatred and alienation that they’ll gleefully cram down their kids’ throats at the drop of a mitre, but $DIETY forbid that they should have to explain whussy, un-American things like love, tolerance and affection.
When I was telling Amy this story over lunch, her first reaction was “they called 911 over that? But they don’t object to seeing two guys beat the shit out of each other on tv?” Which is exactly the point–we celebrate violence, but cringe at public displays of affection, particularly if they’re between members of the same sex. How have we managed to survive as a species?
That’s epic. 911 because of gay PDA. So awesome.
I love PDA. Both participating or viewing. I think it’s cute!
My boyfriend and I saw this episode the other night. We sat there with our mouths hanging open the whole time. I don’t think anyone mentioned the businessmen who gawked at and then interrupted the lesbian couple engaged in PDA. One of the dudes went over and pretty much congratulated them and told them they were hot. Then he asked if they’d wave hello to his buddies who were waiting a few yards away.
My boyfriend was like, “How would he like it if someone treated him and his wife that way?!” What spectacular idiots. They’re lesbians; they’re not making out to get you off.
It’s all just so hypocritical. How about the guy in the cab in Vegas? “Gays will end up in hell when they die” - as he’s chauffered around Sin City. I’m sure he was there for innocent fun only, right?
Not only that, Incertus Brian - they don’t object to violence in public!
I like the 20/20 What Would You Do? specials. Whenever they have one featuring a public domestic violence situation, passers-by mind their business.
But a same-sex couple snuggling?! CALL THE POHLEES!
In general you can always find someone in Alabama who’s willing to pass right the hell out over PDA, regardless of the genders of the individuals involved. I can’t even count the number of times and/or places I’ve been told to “take that somewhere else” when I’m doing something no more innocuous than leaning my head on Mr. Prision(the fiance)’s shoulder in public.
And it’s not just PDA that people are totally willing to stick their noses into. In general, people in Alabama feel the driving need to regulate the behavior of others. Just the other day I was in the line at the grocery. A hetero couple in line in front of me were having a conversation rife with my favorite kinds of words. The guy was swearing like a sailor, but it wasn’t until the gal said “those fuckers” two or three times that the man in front of them turned around and proceeded to admonish her–but not him. ‘Cause, we’re supposed to all be wilting flowers, see?
I also wish they’d chosen somewhere other than Birmingham, but it could’ve been worse–it could’ve been game-day weekend in Tuscaloosa.
Birmingham, believe it or not, is a pretty nice place to live: good weather, affordable housing, local jazz scene, beautiful parks, and a sizable population of Alabamans who want to stay in the state but get away from the third-world infrastructure or medieval attitudes that permeate the Deep South.
Of course, it still is Alabama, so I’m not at all surprised by the reactions–I am surprised this was offered as an “ethical problem” by ABC. The problem, I’d think, would be how to respond to such naked bigotry, not to the PDA.
And god, just stay away from Tuscaloosa.
I didn’t think the PDAs were over the top. More than I would do, but I am a bit shy, to say the least. I personally don’t mind others’ PDAs in appropriate settings (park bench, airport, beach - NOT some activity where it is polite to pay attention, eg, not in lecture hall, concert/theater performance, etc). Just so long as they aren’t fondling each others’ nether parts and are coming up for air relatively frequently. THAT might merit a wise-ass comment like “get a room already”.
I liked the African-American (older) mother and adult daughter who said of the two guys - “no, I don’t mind it, in fact they could move next door - eye candy” (and yes, the men were good-looking).
My son has been gay bashed at school this year. Repeatedly. He’s been hit,slapped,threatened,and had some really horribly graphic sexual things said to him(many concerning things he supposedly does with his dad). By his fellow 13 and 14 yr old male classmates. He’s not gay,he’s just not like everyone else.
Because of this,I had to sit him down and explain gay sex to him. We had just covered the whole straight sex thing(note:the kid is on the high functioning side of the autism spectrum,mildly Asperger’s Syndrome. He worked his ass off to get out of special education,only to be bullied,told he’s stupid and treated like shit by his peers),so ya know,this whole”oh,the CHILDREN!!”thing is full of more shit than a sewage plant. The poor children wouldn’t care a whit if they weren’t being fed a load of obscene garbage at home.
Ack.
I chuckled at this quote:
“It’s not what we say, it’s what God says. The chances of them going to heaven may not be very good if they continue this lifestyle.”
Translation: “Because I, who will sit at the side of Saint Peter himself, will have a say in who gets shuffled through the Pearly Gates.”
The self-unrighteousness of these clowns protesting a little gay and lesbian PDA is enough to make one vomit. How entitled do you have to feel to to find it necessary to call the cops because someone offends your precious sensibilities?
It does seem to be an incomplete experiment without getting reactions to a heterosexual couple. Some people hate all PDAs. But not to the point of calling 911.
Ah, they did. The had previously done a segment on people’s reactions to heterosexual couples doing PDA’s. This was a follow-up piece with gay and lesbian couples.
When I was in college, I walked down the same street near the Fenway in Boston with my girlfriend for about two years. We held hands, kissed often, and were a little ridiculous, by anyone’s standards, about our PDA. Nothing ever happened, except maybe some stares. After we broke up, I walked down that street with my masculine-identified girlfriend arm in arm, and a group of men and a woman walked by. One of the guys punched her in the shoulder and told her to “watch it”…we were on the other side of the sidewalk. Then they cackled and started a loud discussion about what her gender was.
I would have liked to see how different the results of this little experiment would have been if the participants were non-gender conforming. I bet it would have been just as bad in NJ.
Heh. I meant “self-righteous” in my previous post.
Why are public displays of sexual affection necessary? Is it that people are undisciplined or are they trying to prove something? If so, what?
For what it’s worth, when I’m in a really amazing and exciting new relationship and feel like I’m falling in sweet sappy love, suddenly the rational part of my brain that understands other people exist kind of goes out the window.
Also, I think this depends on your definition of “PDA” — I think it’s considered pretty normal in American culture for hetero couples to hold hands walking down the street, and things in that league. It only becomes ‘trying to prove something’ or otherwise creepy/weird/annoying when the couple is kissing with tongue and beyond.
Funny story: I spent January and February in India, where, aside from the local lover’s lane, no kind of physical affection is ever expressed in public between members of the opposite sex. Even holding hands on the street is very rare, even if you’re married. My first night back home I went out for a drink with some friends, and suddenly I felt like a freaky puritan because it seemed like everyone was practically getting it on right there in the bar. Even though I knew it was normal American levels of acceptable PDA and public flirtation.
Why are public displays of sexual affection necessary?
Like many other activities–reading, skipping rope, eating–doing them in public is not necessary. Nevertheless, people want to do them in public, and so they do.
A better question might be, “Why are some people so disturbed by public displays of affection, such that they imply that those who engage in such displays are undisciplined or ‘trying to prove something’?
And what’s wrong with trying to prove something anyway?
Well, I think it’s the same thing as those folks who think abortion is murder but haven’t thought about what jail term would be appropriate.
There was a book, something like “ain’t nobody’s business if you do” about victimless crimes, and I didn’t read the whole thing, but the introduction emphasized this point… making something illegal is saying “let’s put people in jail over this.” And over and over, it repeated that theme. It’s not about whether, e.g., drug use was bad, or wrong, it was over whether you should put someone in jail over it. The idea was to be shocking, and make people think of the consequences of making something illegal.
I’d go further and say that, these days especially, we should consider that it could be worth someone’s life. Are we willing to kill someone who refuses to go to jail, who flees from the police, over this crime?
And the same thing could be done in this situation. What if one of the gayfolks is angry and gets in the cop’s face over being hassled for doing nothing but kissing? Are we willing to say the cop has a right to apply a little smackdown, that it’s all the gay person’s fault for not bowing and scraping before the symbol of authority?
Alas, these days, I don’t think this would be shocking to enough folks. The idea that the cops should be afraid of unduly harming a civilian seems kind of quaint to a lot of folks.
Why are public displays of sexual affection necessary? Is it that people are undisciplined or are they trying to prove something? If so, what?
W.T.F? What is ‘FREEDOM®’ FOR if you can’t DO things? Ya crank.
DISCIPLINED??? What, are we all in the fucking military? In training for some affection-free hellhole?
Please go straight to hell. Oh wait, it’s in your head so you’re already there. Jesus murphy.
What if one of the gayfolks is angry and gets in the cop’s face over being hassled for doing nothing but kissing? Are we willing to say the cop has a right to apply a little smackdown, that it’s all the gay person’s fault for not bowing and scraping before the symbol of authority?
Hey, baby, that’s when the Taser comes out and the fun begins…
Take your pick - handheld or robotic version.
put someone in jail over it
To be fair, plenty of things are illegal that we don’t put people in jail for. In addition to felonies there are violations (stuff that merits a ticket or other feeble slap on the wrist) and misdemeanors (stuff that might get you anything from a ticket to a fine to community service, depending on the situation).
Nobody would jail someone for speeding, and yet speeding is still illegal, and for good reason.
“W.T.F? What is ‘FREEDOM®’ FOR if you can’t DO things? Ya crank.”
Eric, they want “freedom”, but only to put on the mantle and admire or something.
They don’t want anybody actually USING it - that’s more than they can handle…
I hope more gay couples feel comfortable with PDA so that the next generation of kids grows up around it feeling it’s as normal as straight PDA. Beyond that, I don’t really care to see any PDA even though I engage in it mildly with my S.O. - which makes me a total friggin hypocrite. I think it’s just a sour grapes kind of thing: someone else is getting lovin’ and I’m not. Although sometimes I see college students sucking face on the subway, and they’re not doing it very well, and then I get grossed out and somewhat critical of their technique, especially if excessive saliva is involved. PDAs among the elderly are wonderful though. I can only dream of loving my S.O. and having a healthy relationship for 40+ years.
I haven’t seen the video piece but the linked article doesn’t really seem to draw a big north/south distinction. It presents results as “reactions vary widely” in both locales. In fact, one of their more positive comments was from a southerner:
A 911 call is just so over-the-top it gets people’s attention. But clearly that wasn’t a consistent southern reaction.BeaTricks:
Oh I think you had it right the first time.
About 25 years ago, two friends of mine were sitting on a park bench, talking, in San Francisco. SAN FRANCISCO. He is black. She was white. A person later deemed incompetent to stand trial came out of the bushes and shot them both. He lived. She died. (She was 18.) If this sort of violence can happen to two friends talking in San Francisco, I’m not surprised that attitudes towards gay couples are so judgemental and negative.
*Person narrative alert*
I’m from Mesa, AZ–the most Mormon place outside of Salt Lake City. Last Christmas I was visiting my folks, and decided to meet up with some friends at a steakhouse in nearby Scottsdale (rich, white, boob-job/fake & bake central).
When I arrived at the restaurant, it was surrounded by police cars. Apparently, some fratboys at the bar spotted a gay male couple in the dining room, took exception to their right to live, followed them to the parking lot, and beat the sh*t out of both of them.
Creeped me out… That could have been me if I’d arrived 20 minutes earlier (I was actually 30 minutes late due to traffic).
I had lesbian friends who were run off the road, gay friends threatened with baseball bats… Let me tell you, the world is definitely NOT a friendly place for us gayfolk.
er, I meant PERSONAL
While individual countries will differ on what’s OK and what’s not in the streets, I’m actually from New Zealand (like Sarah in Chicago) and am no fan of the PDA and most people I’ve talked about it with don’t seem to like it much either. It does depend what you’re meaning, of course. I think of PDA as being making out or when a couple stand on a street corner and drop kiss after kiss on each other as they say goodbye. I’ll avert my eyes and all but ack. Hand-holding et al or a quick kiss goodbye I don’t consider a PDA.
I do agree with Caroline @ 13, though. I *vastly* prefer seeing gay PDAs to straight. I remember what a shock it was to first go to a gay bar but now that I’ve been in the gay community for years that’s just my normal, so I’m more comfortable seeing gay couples together and being all romantic and kissy. I do understand why straight people would feel awkward at first because even my gay self got a big ole shock to the system that first time at a club; we’re all set to heteronormative, after all.
I really think dumping straight people into that kind of situation would be quite beneficial to get rid of the initial shock factor. When I see gay couples holding hands on the street it’s rare enough that I will definitely notice (and be happy about it) but it’s not fun being stared at for something so minor; it shouldn’t stand out the way it does, even in a reasonably progressive city/country for gay rights. The only way I can think to ease that is to actually expose straight people to a mass of gay couples sometime early on. There’re a lot of people around my age (20s) who insist that they’re totally cool with gay people blah blah blah but you know they’re going to get very uncomfortable when actually around gay couples. It’s not their fault and I went through the same ‘this is so different from my normal’ experience and it’d be good to have a means of overcoming that initial weirdness. Of course, ideally none of this will be an issue if we raise children who see gay as normal but there’re the older peeps to consider.
Anyway, I’m getting away from the PDA topic a bit here.
And god, just stay away from Tuscaloosa.
Hey, now, don’t let all the frat boys fool you. I did grad school at UA and found the town to be surprisingly gay-friendly, on the whole. You didn’t even have to avoid the Strip, since Egan’s is pretty aggressively anything-goes. The town seemed to me to be much harder on women and persons of color than gays.