Posted by Auguste April 26, 2008 in Asides, Gender Issues, Entertainment
Like a complete idiot, I didn’t think to take a picture, so here’s a picture of the cover
I’ve been a fan of Barry’s for a long time, so the thing I was looking forward to most about Stumptown Comics Fest was picking up the aborted-tree edition of Hereville. And it’s great, of course. If you’re in Portland, the second day of the Festival is tomorrow (at the Lloyd Center Doubletree), and if you’re not, and the story (girl meets sword) sounds intriguing (and it should), go order it from the web site - several editions are available.
94 Responses to “I went to the Stumptown Comics Fest and all I got was this awesome book about an 11-year-old troll-fighting Orthodox Jewish girl”
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yeah, I look forward to the dead tree copy in May.
also the Wowio edition, if Amp can arrange it, so that I can refer everyone I know to it as quickly as possible.
If you like this, try to find some of the work of Leela Corman. Specifically a piece called “Fanya Needs to Know”, from 2002’s Scherazade anthology.
So you’re going to pimp Ampersand’s book while ignoring how he sells porn on his website, while Amanda’s the subject of a huge group bash fest? Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice.
You’ve been a fan of Barry’s for a long time now? Including the whole racist and sexist porn thing?
Ginmar is referring to me selling my domain almost two years ago. Readers who are interested can read my summary of the situation here and here.
* * *
Thank you so much for the link, Auguste.
It was cool seeing you at Stumptown.
To racist and sexist pornographers. Your opinion of your actions is just a wee bit self serving.
How’s Robert these days, Amp? Still anti-feminist and misogynist?
You have links to racist-sexist pornography on your website, Ampersand. If you sold the domain you could have moved on to somewhere else but you stayed there and supported the pornographers you work with.
How much money did you make from selling your website to them, a website which was only valuable because of the feminist blog on it? Is there an ongoing financial relationship?
Did you right the reviews that appear there? Reviews like this one -
“Ball Honeys is the premier BangBros ethnic site. BALL. Black, Asian, Latina, Ladies. I don’t think I can be any clearer than this. Some of the finest ethnic babes around. All featured in hot scenes, new every week. This is actually one of my favorite sites. The girls they find have the hottest asses around. Nothing beats a big, round booty. Nothing beats the Ball Honeys. Each week, the boys at BangBros deliver a new ethnic mama and get down to business.”
I think if there is going to be a boycott of Seal Press as has been suggested elsewhere there also equally needs to be a boycott of your book.
“How much money did you make from selling your website to them, a website which was only valuable because of the feminist blog on it? Is there an ongoing financial relationship?”
He made enough to pay his mortgage so that he and his family would not lose their home.
All further payments have gone straight to feminist charities.
—
The book is really excellent. I strongly recommend it.
Yes it’s always great when a man can pimp out women to pay the mortgage. Also, do the feminist charities know where the money came from?
Mandolin, your answer doesn’t cover why Ampersand is still there two years down the line. He could open up a blog anywhere. At the moment his “feminist” blog still supports the racist-sexist pornography links. It’s appalling.
I think it’s extremely interesting that way he refers to the sale of his website and not to whom he sold it.
Indeed. I’d also like a comment from either Ampersand or his surrogate Mandolin on that disgusting quote from his website, which they are both going to try to pretend doesn’t exist.
What possible justification is there for that - fetishisation of women and festishisation of their ethinicity? Racist and sexist, a double win for the haters.
Notwithstanding all the other things being said in this thread, I find the above to be both offensive and illustrative. Mandolin is an accomplished blogger (among many other things) in her own right and it can be fairly assumed that she is capable of holding and expressing her own opinions.
Mandolin was speaking for Ampersand. I asked the questions directly to him not to her. I didn’t say “How much money did Ampersand make?”, I said “How much money did *you* make?”.
Perhaps you aren’t aware of the age-old tactic of men hiding behind women when they are being criticised by other women Auguste. It’s a function of sexism.
If Ampersand comes back and answers what I’ve asked directly however, I’ll gladly withdraw.
Also, what I said didn’t imply that Mandolin doesn’t have her own opinions, just that they coincide with Ampersand’s. That isn’t an insult.
Which is still implying Mandolin would allow herself to be used that way. Amp, I would imagine, is at Stumptown (as implied by the original thread).
Which is interesting, because Amanda’s on a book tour at the same time, but people aren’t interesting in accepting that excuse.
He is, indeed, at Stumptown.
I don’t think the called-for boycott of Jungle Out There and a called-for boycott of Hereville are parallel.
Speaking personally, I mentioned that I wouldn’t buy Jungle Out There from Seal Press while it contianed racist imagery. That’s discussing content of an actual publication. I said I would attempt to obtain the book through other routes, and try to make sure that Amanda was compensated for her efforts, but that I didn’t support the publisher that had put in those illustrations. Now that the illustrations have been removed, I withdraw my complaints, and will happily (and excitedly!) buy the book from Seal.
The complaint about Hereville is not a complaint about the content of the book; it’s a complaint about the moral character of the author and his action on an unrelated issue.
Now, the latter is certainly fine, and if you want to call for a boycott, go for it. You’ll be missing out on an awesome graphic novel, but that’s not really here or there.
However, it’s bad logic to imply that the two situations are identical, or that action on one necessitates action on the other. Boycott if you like, but boycott for the strength of your own moral convictions, not as a way of suggesting hypocrisy on the part of Amanda’s critics.
Speaking of troll killers, where can we get one?
I may have to buy a copy just to make a few weirdo’s heads explode.
Not to mention supporting a fellow self published author.
“Amanda’s on a book tour at the same time, but people aren’t interesting in accepting that excuse. ”
Personally, I do. In comments at Shakesville, I wrote a fairly long comment to this effect.
However, I still think it’s weird and disingenuous to use Barry’s book as a way of poking at Amanda’s critics — and here, I’m not trying to defend myself, for while I do find the images that were included problematic, I am equally satisfied by the apology, and the issue is effectively moot for me, at this point.
Still, there are plenty of people who are still mad, and I think it’s bad argument to use Barry as a way of getting at them — particularly because it does fuel, intentionally or unintentionally, the meme that women of color are irrationally angry. In this case, the irrationality being sourced in the fact that people are angry at Amanda and not (at the moment) directing the same kind of blogwar wrath in Barry’s direction.
Poke at Barry’s book, moral character, or whatever, for its own flaws, but his situation and Amanda’s really aren’t parallel to the extent these arguments make them out to be.
“Yes it’s always great when a man can pimp out women to pay the mortgage.”
Barry, to my understanding, made this decision in tandem with his life partners, which includes one woman who suffers from a disability that prevents her from working. Two minor, female children, were also kept in their home.
Suggesting this is the case of “a man” benefitting is reductive.
“Also, do the feminist charities know where the money came from?”
Probably not. Nor do they ask my parents when they donate money, to determine which portions of the cash come from my mother’s teaching job from which she’s paid by the US government (responsibel for torture, the murder and rape of brown women in Iraq, imprisoning brown women and children on the Texas border in facilities like Hutto, and oh-so much more), and which portion comes from my father’s job with a computer company that uses products mined from countries in Africa, the mining of which creates institutionalized rape and violence against African women.
Nor do they ask me, when I donate, where I get my money. Do they ask you? Is your money clean?
“Which is still implying Mandolin would allow herself to be used that way. Amp, I would imagine, is at Stumptown (as implied by the original thread).”
Not really, I’m pointing out a dynamic that might be happening. If Ampersand comes back and answers for himself it won’t look like that.
The chain of responses is quite amusing actually - I ask Ampersand a direct question, Mandolin takes it on herself to answer for him, I respond to her then *you*, Auguste, take offense on her part and decide to defend her against me.
I do hope that Ampersand at some point is able to come back to this thread and answer for himself then this weird set of dynamics of people taking it on themselves to answer for one another will disappear.
But while you’re addressing me Auguste, what do you think of that vile quote from Ampersand’s website.
Obviously I don’t approve of the racism and sexism expressed in said quote, and I can’t remember whether I weighed in at the original time of sale or not. Probably not; generally speaking I try to remember my privilege and allow those who are directly affected by disagreements be the ones to hash them out (unless I happen to be one of the main offenders); that’d be why I haven’t particularly given many opinions on the the firestorm surrounding Amanda (although, ginmar, I agree completely with the ‘let’s remember she’s on a book tour’ sentiment, and am never very simpatico with the expectation of timeliness in blog discussions, being all-too-familiar with the way real life concerns crop up).
I don’t always succeed at avoiding sticking my nose in, so individual examples of where I’ve done same are legion, I’m sure. As for “defending Mandolin”, there’s been a lot on this thread I’ve been upset by (and some I haven’t) and it carries my name at the top, so what I felt was a borderline sexist attack, or at the very least an attack for behavior which is commonplace in the blogosphere, was worth commenting on.
Who cares if Amp’s ‘life partners’ agreed? There are women everywhere who do stupid shit, who sell out other women. I just want to know why t here’s one standard for Amanda and another for Amp, who is still doing it to this day, just he’s doing it for altruistic reasons, supposedly. Is that good enough an excuse? “Sorry for the racist and sexist porn, but it’s going to a good cause!” HE doesn’t even mention racist and sexist porn when he pops in here to point people to his threads.
” t here’s one standard for Amanda and another for Amp”
Again, non-parallel situations.
“The chain of responses is quite amusing actually - I ask Ampersand a direct question, Mandolin takes it on herself to answer for him, I respond to her then *you*, Auguste, take offense on her part and decide to defend her against me.”
Delphyne, I do so hope you never speak for anyone else. For instance, those women being abused? You should probably refrain from speaking for them.
Or you could acknowledge that, in a discussion, there are multiple voices, and when you spout problematic words, you may get called out by more than one person.
I’m glad to know that anything anyone has ever done is fair game to be held against them and to be brought up every time their name comes up in conversation, no matter how far by proxy the claim may be, and no matter how irrelevant to the conversation at hand. so Amanda is a modern Nero Caesar in her anti-Christian thought who tried to lynch lacrosse players, Barry is that alien monster pornographer from Futurama who deals in Human Horn, and if my memory serves me correctly, Ginmar has a military background which makes her a racist, sexist murderer.
fortunately, my complete inertia puts me above criticism. a side effect of never doing anything is never doing anything wrong. Therefore I shall lazily watch from my pedestal riding high-horse.
So Amp’s betrayal of feminism is just a grudge match to Karpad. Good to know. I mean, it’s not like selling out women to racists and sexists matters on a website where a woman is being excoriated for racist pictures. And it’s not like Amp didn’t do it for money, either.
You want to bring up my military service, Karpad? Then tell me how else you get out of a shit neighborhood with no education and no money. It’s that simple. Amp had different choices, and they included selling out women. HE took them. I didn’t. I’ve been disciplined for standing up against sexism several times. Amp sold out to it. Oh, yeah, and he’s a man. Amanda’s pledged to change the pictures. Amp’s domain is still selling porn—and not just porn, but horrible racist sexist porn.
I guess that’s okay with you.
seeing as I missed the kerfuffle a first time around (as in people started arguing about it and I stopped reading Alas as trolls like you were making any discussion thread unreadable), I went through a good faith attempt to find said racist sexist horrible porn linked ANYWHERE on Amps page, as you claimed.
didn’t find any.
And you must have missed the part of the explanation that included saving his family home. if I have to find a way you could leave your shitty neighborhood without resorting to supporting the status quo of a racist, sexist homophobic network of professional murderers, then very, very obviously you have to give a concrete way to meet that immediate and drastic expense of his that didn’t involve coming into contact with anything that unsavory. saying “he had other options.” doesn’t mean much. YOU had other options too.
In hindsight, do you think Amp wishes he’d retained more control over to whom the URL reseller could sell it to? I’d think so. You seem rather caught up on a HE BETRAYED US FOR 30 PIECES OF SILVER! kick, when that is just obviously not the case.
What, exactly, should amp do about the URL which he already sold, hmm? as apparently “donating every dime he makes from royalties to feminist causes” isn’t enough for you. is revoking the sale an option? my understanding is no. Amp can’t magically get rid of those pornographers.
See, unlike you, I’m not actually trying to hold people accountable for things that are beyond their control. Your military background doesn’t make you a permanent force of evil in the cosmos. but it does make you very much a dweller of glass houses.
I’m a might curious how your standing up to sexism in the military, admirable as that may be, magically removes any accountability you have for being a part of the multi-trillion dollar engine of death that is the Military Industrial Complex, if Amp’s repeated stands against sexism, both before and since don’t render him free of the sin of similarly being exploited by pornographers.
“oh yeah, and he’s a man?” how is THAT relevant? It would magically be okay if he had a vagina? You get a free pass on the oppression you inflicted as a professional because you’re part of an oppressed minority, but amp’s man-status means it MUST be malicious?
Your arguments aren’t far removed from the current dust up about Amanda’s book. Where several people have loudly announced Amanda is a racist, as evidenced by the pictures. Which Seal’s letter of apology made clear she had no hand in selecting or designing. But she’s still a racist, because her name is on it and the pictures are racist.
Because amp lacks the legal authority to cancel a contract he’s only involved in a sale of by proxy, he’s a misogynist. kind of like how if I pawn my watch, if a nazi buys it from the pawn shop, I’m a nazi supporter.
I’m not saying criticism isn’t valid. but “hey, this comic about a girl who dreams of becoming a troll-slayer is pretty good and going on sale now” isn’t really a particularly good place to start with “you know the author’s old URL was purchased by hateporn makers.” It doesn’t start a dialog. it shuts it down.
Fuck you and your trolling comment. YOu’re just an Amp apologist. Delphyne already posted some of the shit Amp’s got on his site.
Yeah, when Amp gets a free pass for racist sexist porn, then Amanda gets a pass for the pictures in her book. It doesn’t go, let’s ignore Amp’s continued betrayal of feminism. So fuck you again. I don’t want to dialogue with people like you who make up excuses for him.
Here’s a link to it for the hard of searching:
http://reviews.amptoons.com/
There’s some other goodies on there like an ad for the Fleshlight -
“Fleshlight. It’s like having a girlfriend, but without all the nagging and headaches. Now more dates with Ms. Michigan. Find out if the Fleshlight is the real deal.”
Anybody who feels comfortable visiting a website promoting content like that needs to seriously consider their commitment to feminism. Feminism is about liberating women from shit like this, not making money from it.
“For instance, those women being abused? You should probably refrain from speaking for them.”
Like I’ve never been abused. Whatever Mandolin. Did you actually think about that little snipe before you wrote it? And if a question is directed to another woman I certainly wouldn’t step in and answer for her, because that would be rude and unhelpful. Good job in comparing Amp defending himself from charges of pimping women to a woman in an abusive situation though. How does that one work exactly?
Still no Ampersand on the thread I see.
“Probably not; generally speaking I try to remember my privilege and allow those who are directly affected by disagreements be the ones to hash them out”
Actually confronting other men about their sexism and exploitation of women is number one on the list of things for men to do if they want to be an ally of women, Auguste. So feel free to go ahead and do it now and condemn Ampersand for pimping women on his website. His website promotes Fleshlight, his website promotes the racist-sexist porn of BangBros, it’s disgusting.
And you know if you’re really worried about your male privilege what on earth were you a man, attacking me a woman, for criticising another man? Because despite Mandolin trying to get in the middle here, my criticism were of Ampersand and his behaviour and your focus on mine was a distraction from that.
” It’s that simple. Amp had different choices, and they included selling out women. HE took them. I didn’t. ”
I think Karpad’s point is actually that you *did* take them.
Does being in the military during wartime not include participating in the systemic violence against women in wartorn countries?
Of course it does, as do our tax dollars, as do all our actions and inactions, all the time, to a greater or lesser extent.
You did it to get out of a shitty neighborhood, and that’s a respectable reason. Amp did something to keep his house, and that’s a respectable reason.
Why the fuck are we picking on people and not systems? Why are we picking on people who make little money and have issues with poverty instead of on the ways our social and welfare and class systems are set up to trap people, to put them between the hard wall of poverty and the rock of military service, the hard wall of familial homelessness and the rock of working for someone whose values you utterly disdain?
Of course Amp wasn’t thrilled about the sale. But, he weighed the options, and decided the alternative was not better. Y’all keep discussing him like he’s the “pimp”; he didn’t make the porn; he doesn’t use the porn; he helped one racist, sexist pornographer make a slightly better ranking on google than another racist, sexist pornographer, without changing the amount of porn out there or the numbers of porn users one whit. So, adding basically nothing to the sum of pornography on the one hand, versus losing the home of himself and his partners? Fuck. Yeah, you know? I’d make the same decision.
How is Amp’s action appreciably worse than if I sold a story to “Playboy” — which, god yes, is racist as well as sexist. Does Ursula Leguin lose her feminist credentials? Are we boycotting her now?
Our entire lives are a balance of good and evil, striving and moral compromise. Many of us in this thread are Americans. Our hands are all bloody.
“Here’s a link to it for the hard of searching:”
Ah, you mean ON BARRY’S DOMAIN, not ON BARRY’S WEBSITE.
You know how whitesupremacy.blogspot.com and pissedoffblackpeopleagainstracist.blogspot.com aren’t the same website?
Important distinction.
Oh, and Delphyne?
“Because despite Mandolin trying to get in the middle here,”
Officially fuck you, and fuck Heart, and fuck the rest of you radfems whose feminism and support of women is only deep enough to acknowledge women can think for themselves as long as they don’t disagree with you.
The other 99% of radfems, however, are peachy by me.
“I think Karpad’s point is actually that you *did* take them.
Does being in the military during wartime not include participating in the systemic violence against women in wartorn countries?
Of course it does, as do our tax dollars, as do all our actions and inactions, all the time, to a greater or lesser extent.”
I believe ginmar entered the military before George Bush’s Iraq fantasy started. But even if she didn’t, the military has basically been a jobs/training institution for some time. And when we don’t have insane people with daddy-complexes running the show, the military isn’t killing anyone.
ginmar took advantage of one of the few places she could go to get out. Taking the initiative is to be congratulated, not condemned.
I’m not going to step into the Ampersand argument. I don’t know much about it.
But I’ve read ginmar’s stuff for a long time, and she deserves more respect than implying she’s a baby-killer or something for wanting to break out of her cycle of poverty.
For every person in the military with dreams of becoming Rambo, I’d bet there’s 50 who just need the training and experience to put on their resumé…
seeing as I missed the kerfuffle a first time around (as in people started arguing about it and I stopped reading Alas as trolls like you were making any discussion thread unreadable), I went through a good faith attempt to find said racist sexist horrible porn linked ANYWHERE on Amps page, as you claimed.
If the URL for this site, the one we’re commenting on right now, was “pandagon DOT hateporn DOT com”, even if NO links whatsoever existed in the content of the Pandagon pages to the main domain name, it could reasonably be said that this site supports the domain it’s hosted on, and that failure to move the site is at least tacitly lending Pandagon’s support to it.
As I gather that this hypothetical example is analogous to the actual situation with the “Alas, A Blog” site, the same could reasonably said of Amp’s tacit support for the site.
Some people do shitty things for money because they feel like it’s the best option for them at the time. Some people do less shitty things for money because they feels it’s the best choice for them at the time. Some people don’t do shitty things for money even though they desperately need it and wind up getting pretty badly f’ed over in life.
But to say you did a shitty thing for money because you had to, and to THEN claim that because you had no other choice it’s not really your fault and the shitty thing actually isn’t shitty at all? To go one step further and continue to support, tacitly or otherwise, the continuing success of the shitty thing you set in motion? For your OWN continued financial gain despite the time of crisis that inspired it having long passed?
That’s different.
supporting the status quo of a racist, sexist homophobic network of professional murderers, then very, very obviously you have to give a concrete way to meet that immediate and drastic expense of his that didn’t involve coming into contact with anything that unsavory.
Auguste? Mandolin? Care to speak up here about falsely equating things which are not?
In hindsight, do you think Amp wishes he’d retained more control over to whom the URL reseller could sell it to? I’d think so. You seem rather caught up on a HE BETRAYED US FOR 30 PIECES OF SILVER! kick, when that is just obviously not the case.
I’m charitable enough to think that he sure as hell wishes he would stop getting flack for it.
What, exactly, should amp do about the URL which he already sold, hmm? as apparently “donating every dime he makes from royalties to feminist causes” isn’t enough for you.
That’s one of those things that’s like, the LEAST, the MOST MINIMALLY humanly decent things he could do. Should a parade be thrown in his honor for not reinvesting the money in the pornographers’ company to gain a greater share of future profits?
is revoking the sale an option? my understanding is no. Amp can’t magically get rid of those pornographers.
He could probably change his handle, cut all ties with the site and anything linking to it, and invest some time in heartfelt apologetics and/or lend his active work and support to causes which seek to improve the lives of women who are negatively impacted by the company his earlier work now supports effectively enough for his advance and royalties to have paid off otherwise crippling debts in short order.
I mean, just saying - he COULD do those things, given that revoking the sale or buying back the domain are probably off the table.
It’s not like there’s nothing to be done at all.
See, unlike you, I’m not actually trying to hold people accountable for things that are beyond their control. Your military background doesn’t make you a permanent force of evil in the cosmos. but it does make you very much a dweller of glass houses.
“I don’t hold things against people that are beyond their control, but I sure do hold your military service against you” is how that and the following passages read. Just FYI.
“oh yeah, and he’s a man?” how is THAT relevant? It would magically be okay if he had a vagina? You get a free pass on the oppression you inflicted as a professional because you’re part of an oppressed minority, but amp’s man-status means it MUST be malicious?
I think it basically means that inasfar as the dude, being a dude, perpetrated and/or perpetuated sexism and racism, if there’s raking-people-over-coals to be done, he ought to be a bit farther ahead in line than a woman.
Because, you know, male privilege, Patriarchay, little stuff like that.
I’m not saying criticism isn’t valid. but “hey, this comic about a girl who dreams of becoming a troll-slayer is pretty good and going on sale now” isn’t really a particularly good place to start with “you know the author’s old URL was purchased by hateporn makers.” It doesn’t start a dialog. it shuts it down.
It may shut down a dialog ’bout the book, but it’s kicked something up regarding the topic of the author’s feminist cred. Elsewise, neither of us would be writing in response to it, no?
You know how whitesupremacy.blogspot.com and pissedoffblackpeopleagainstracist.blogspot.com aren’t the same website?
Important distinction.
Weren’t you the first person on this thread to say it’s not cool to compare things that are fundamentally different as if they were the same?
“Officially fuck you, and fuck Heart, and fuck the rest of you radfems whose feminism and support of women is only deep enough to acknowledge women can think for themselves as long as they don’t disagree with you.”
You’re the one who takes part in a website that promotes racist-sexist pornography. And do you know what Mandolin, I hold you fully responsible for that choice, I do think you can think for yourself despite the propaganda you are trying to promote here so I also hold you accountable for trying to twist my words into something they’re not. I also think that you were fully aware of the choice you made to answer for Ampersand when the question wasn’t even directed at you. So I call bullshit on this “you don’t think women can think for themselves”. You’re confusing me criticising your actions, with claiming you can’t think for yourself.
But in the scheme of things what you were doing pales into insignificance compared to what Ampersand when he sold his site to porn-promoters and continues to run his “feminist” blog there with the help of other feminists.
He could have walked away and left it, if he had no control over the content anymore, but he didn’t. He chose to stay and support those links.
“You know how whitesupremacy.blogspot.com and pissedoffblackpeopleagainstracist.blogspot.com aren’t the same website?
Important distinction.”
No it’s specious. There’s only one “feminist” blog running on the domain “Amptoons” (and oh my god it’s got his name in it and reference to his cartoons, that’s just so exactly like blogspot! Who is Mr Blog and why does he like spots?) and there’s a link at the bottom of his blog to the porn reviews.
The mental gymnastics you’re trying to pull to make this OK when it’s anything but, are quite something.
Does being in the military during wartime not include participating in the systemic violence against women in wartorn countries?
Well, fuck you, Mandolin, that’s pretty much it for me. Just call me a baby killer. What a fucking liar and shill you are.
“But I’ve read ginmar’s stuff for a long time, and she deserves more respect than implying she’s a baby-killer or something for wanting to break out of her cycle of poverty”
I read Ginmar, too. And that is NOT what I implied.
I implied that everyone is involved in systemic violence. When you’re in teh army, you’re involved in systemic violence. When you pay fucking taxes to support the fucking war, you’re involved in systemic violence. Did systemic analysis just go out the window?
Ginmar is NOT a “baby killer.” That is NOT what I said. But her hands are not clean, nor are mine, nor is anyone in this thread’s I’d wager.
That’s why I’d rather judge her on her excellent activism rather than a standard of purity that no one in a capitalist, racist, violent system can adhere to.
“Well, fuck you, Mandolin, that’s pretty much it for me. Just call me a baby killer. What a fucking liar and shill you are. ”
Ginmar, I respect you very much. I hope you’ll reread what I’ve said and note that I am not saying you’re a baby killer or any more responsible for racist violence than any other American who pays taxes.
Oh, don’t try and weasel out of it. I joined the Army in peacetime and have served in exactly one war, during which I set up and participated in three supply drives for soldiers and Iraqi civilians. You don’t know shit about the Army and your respect, as you call it, is utterly meaningless if you can talk about my service the shitty way you did. I have nothing else to say to you.
I’m sorry you feel that way, since it’s neither what I said nor what I meant.
Does being in the military during wartime not include participating in the systemic violence against women in wartorn countries?
supporting the status quo of a racist, sexist homophobic network of professional murderers, then very, very obviously you have to give a concrete way to meet that immediate and drastic expense of his that didn’t involve coming into contact with anything that unsavory.
See, unlike you, I’m not actually trying to hold people accountable for things that are beyond their control. Your military background doesn’t make you a permanent force of evil in the cosmos. but it does make you very much a dweller of glass houses.
Yeah. Weasel out of that bullshit.
I’m sorry you feel that way….”
And a shitty insincere apology too! God, it just gets better and better!
That’s why I’d rather judge her on her excellent activism rather than a standard of purity that no one in a capitalist, racist, violent system can adhere to.
You’re trying to establish a moral equivalency between military service and promoting explicitly and intentionally misogynist and racist porn. And then going a bit further and equating paying taxes with same.
That’s pretty effed up.
“No one’s clean, so no one can call anyone on their shit!” is not the way to go.
Is mandolin spelled “Robert”?
That does look like a really cool comic book.
That does look like a really cool comic book.
Yeah, if you want to support the Bang Bus.
supporting the status quo of a racist, sexist homophobic network of professional murderers, then very, very obviously you have to give a concrete way to meet that immediate and drastic expense of his that didn’t involve coming into contact with anything that unsavory.
Nice that that keeps getting attributed to Mandolin, since that wasn’t her. I love how you have to use that quote in order to demonize her.
That does look like a really cool comic book, and I’ll decide whether or not to buy it after following some links and examining some facts, at my own leisure.
It’d be nice if Amp got the same treatment that Amanda’s gotten, because he did it deliberately, and he’s got an arguably bigger website than she does.
It wasn’t an apology at all, Ginmar. I’ve said what I believe, and clarified. I have now been clear, and I feel there’s no reason to apologize for my words, as they are sincerely meant. How you choose to interpret and react to it is your decision.
I find the decision you’ve made saddening, but it was yours to make.
The important thing is that the comic is fantastic, and I’m thrilled that Barry finally has a print edition out. Now I just have to keep my fingers crossed for Jenn Manley Lee and Dicebox…
The important thing is that Amp sells out women and people are eager to overlook it. Why’s that? Why is he getting the pass that Amanda is not? C’mon, feminists, why is there a higher standard for women that lets a guy like Amp off the hook? He did it deliberately, and continues to do it. You’re supporting pornography by buying this comic.
Ginmar,
You’re totally welcome to say whatever you want about me here or on your blog, but please note that I didn’t say this. It was karpad who wrote it:
“And you must have missed the part of the explanation that included saving his family home. if I have to find a way you could leave your shitty neighborhood without resorting to supporting the status quo of a racist, sexist homophobic network of professional murderers, then very, very obviously you have to give a concrete way to meet that immediate and drastic expense of his that didn’t involve coming into contact with anything that unsavory. saying “he had other options.” doesn’t mean much. YOU had other options too.”
So, I’d just appreciate it if you make your argument against me — which, again, is fine — using my own words, instead of someone else’s. Thanks.
(Also, if you check back in the Alas archives, you’ll see that Robert is banned from all my threads, and I’ve posted saying that you’re explicitly allowed despite Barry’s moderation on the rest of the blog, but that’s not really here or there. It’s just the quote I care about. Thanks.)
You’re supporting pornography by buying this comic.
How so?
I wonder if Barry will come back to answer my questions -
“You have links to racist-sexist pornography on your website, Ampersand. If you sold the domain you could have moved on to somewhere else but you stayed there and supported the pornographers you work with.
How much money did you make from selling your website to them, a website which was only valuable because of the feminist blog on it? Is there an ongoing financial relationship?
Did you write the reviews that appear there? ”
Jake Squid, read the comments and that will explain how.
Mandolin, I’ve stopped going to Alas, so I wouldn’t know about that. You still have to explain what you did say. It’s frankly classist to sneer at the one option that is available for lots of poor people.
I know the answers to those questions, so you can have answers if you want.
But you’ve demonstrably proved it’s not the answers you’re interested in. It’s recrimination.
But I’ll go ahead and say it for lurkers anyway: Nope, no one associated with Alas writes the reviews. Obviously.
Mandolin I asked Ampersand if he wrote the reviews. Would it be possible for you to stop answering questions directed to him? It gets confusing and I think it’s a distraction.
As for recrimination, that’s not what I’d like. I’d like him either to stop blogging there and take the group blog somewhere else so it doesn’t support pornography links any more, and the hits to the domain go right down or to break off the deal with the pornographers so the reviews are removed from the domain. At the very least remove the link at the bottom of the blog to the pornography reviews.
Also Mandolin you’ve been appallingly rude here with your “Fuck yous” and your claims that we want recrimination and that I’ve said you don’t think for yourself.
You do know that being anti-pornography, is a feminist stance don’t you and that objecting to feminist blogs, particularly one run by a man (and his name is on the domain for goodness sake), making money from it is not an unreasonable position?
I’d be criticising any feminist or feminist ally who sold their domain to pornographers or pornography marketers.
“It’s frankly classist to sneer at the one option that is available for lots of poor people. ”
I didn’t sneer at it, or didn’t mean to.
I’m sure you were an exemplary and moral soldier, and I thank you for the work you’ve done in our country’s service. But the military — as a system — is not ideal. As a system, it facilitates some really bad things — from the bombing of civilians, to the rape of female soldiers.
You were part of that system — as am I, as an American. It doesn’t matter whether you approve of the system or not, and I know you don’t approve of the bad bits, you’re still part of it, in the same way that white people are part of the systems that support white supremacy, and men part of hte systems that support patriarchy.
And you — as everyone — are forced to participate in that system partially by our country’s economic system, which is racist and violent and cruel and crushes poor people. It’s obviously, clearly a bad thing that one of the few routes out of poverty is military service. Military service is dangerous. It requires that sometimes one must actually do the dirty work that such as I are lucky enough only to pay for. Why should money keep me out of war so that I can ignore it and be safe from it, even while I am part of the national system that propels war? Why should the burdens of war fall disproportionately on the poor? Poverty should not be coercive.
Barry, too, has had real problems with poverty. He has been in a position where he had to choose between two options that were not good, and he chose one, and chose one that you and Delphyne don’t like, and that — obviously — I don’t love either.
However, I passionately feel that it would be the height of hypocrisy for me to condemn him for that choice. I’ve never had to choose between shelter and compromising my moral ideals. I’ve never had to choose between seeing death and leaving poverty. My wealth protects me.
I don’t believe people should be forced to choose between homelessness and moral integrity. Nor do I believe they should be forced to choose between poverty and safety.
“It’s obviously, clearly a bad thing that one of the few routes out of poverty is military service.”
To be clear: I mean, it’s a bad thing because the poor should have many routes out of poverty, not just a few that remain there because it’s work too dangerous and bloody for rich people to want to do.
Some people seem rather intent on reading words that aren’t there. My post made abundantly clear that ginmar isn’t any more a baby killer or the like than amp is a pornographer. I have friends in the military, including some who actually joined up after bush started his wars. and the idea that they are personally responsible for everything the military does disgusts me. But you are, despite your claims of “totally different” doing the exact same thing, “totally different” only because the parties involved were changed
Which I suppose is insulting when you go out of your way to announce what a pornographer he is when he isn’t.
You really haven’t made clear in any way how buying this comic would support pornography. at all. No portion of the proceeds goes to financial support of a pornographic industry. at all.
The only problem I have with you is a problem I have with plenty of other radicals, which is you have some insane threshold of purity or you don’t count and you’re THE EVIL ENEMY.
Which is a shame, because before you quit amp’s forever, I found most of your comments insightful.
Amps sin, unless you have some specific piece of evidence I missed, is “he sold ownership of his domain to a webpage reseller, which was then purchase by pornographers.” which makes him as guilty as someone who sells his pocketknife to a pawn shop where it is repurchased by a murderer.
Amps sin, unless you have some specific piece of evidence I missed, is “he sold ownership of his domain to a webpage reseller, which was then purchase by pornographers.” which makes him as guilty as someone who sells his pocketknife to a pawn shop where it is repurchased by a murderer.
Except, you know, for the fact that it’s a shitty analogy because there exists an on-going economic relationship, in which he actively continues to participate.
Except, you know, for the fact that it’s a shitty analogy because there exists an on-going economic relationship, in which he actively continues to participate.
Which he doesn’t have the legal power to unilaterally terminate, and he doesn’t keep any of said money.
You’re the one who argued he should change his handle and flee somewhere else?
except the “economic relationship” would STILL be ongoing then. and that’s about as foolish as saying that because Amanda’s legal name is on the cover of a book with racist pictures in it, she should distance herself from it by changing her legal name.
which is actually EASIER than changing your web name and retaining readership.
Barry left 2 links in comment #5 above, If I am reading the second post he linked to correctly, he re-upped. In other words, the contract with the pornographers expired, but he renewed it. His right to do so, but our right to criticize, no?
Hereville is a brilliant graphic novel. Thanks, Auguste, for promoting it. As a personal friend of Barry, I know he was very happy about your endorsement. He had a great weekend at Stumptown, where he was indeed far too busy reaping the benefits from his hard-earned comics work to bother feeding the trolls.
Ginmar is a completely unhinged asshole, but so are most modern feminists and at least Ginmar hates everyone equally.
I find Ginmar and Deutsch to be functionally and morally equivalent, and I think Ginmar wins with her point about their being a double standard.
But that is what modern feminism IS. A big old double standard, all revolving around whose oppression penis is longer, thicker, and harder. It’s okay for all feminists to bash men. It’s okay for white feminists to bash feminists of color. It’s okay for feminists of color to bash white feminists.
Have I told you how you assholes were always meant for each other?
The rest of the world understands that’s a shameful game to play, and that’s why people run screaming from assholes like those that have been playing the feminist screaming match games.
August. Didn’t want to leave you out. You’re a total douchebag too.
You’re friends with somebody who supports racist, sexist porn, Kevin. Good luck with that. Oh, wait—it’s not like it affects his little male buddies.
Oh, lookie the bitter little MRA troll. How sweet.
joe, it’s really cool that you let everybody know right away just how quickly they should dismiss you.
I really hate the trolls that pretend they’re really on your side while trying to slip the knife into your back.
With you, it’s all out there in black and white. You might as well were a big ol’ sign saying “Hi! I’m Joe, and I’m an I’m a Troll! So don’t bother to read a single thing I have to say!”
So much easier to just let everybody know right up front.
Next time you feel an urge to post here, you don’t even have to bother. We already know exactly what you’ll have to say. Saves you time, saves us time, and doesn’t waste anymore Intertube bytes going straight into the Bit Bucket…
Which he doesn’t have the legal power to unilaterally terminate, and he doesn’t keep any of said money.
As another commenter noted - it’s not the royalty checks, so much, as the residence. Why stay on the site, why continue to blog under a handle that necessarily references the site?
You’re the one who argued he should change his handle and flee somewhere else?
Not flee, per se. The guilty, where no one pursueth, blah, blah. But I think that’s the wrong framing.
except the “economic relationship” would STILL be ongoing then. and that’s about as foolish as saying that because Amanda’s legal name is on the cover of a book with racist pictures in it, she should distance herself from it by changing her legal name.
Or she could change the book, instead, which they are apparently doing. But you and others have said he can’t change the domain (which is the analogous action here), so I and others have indicated that if he didn’t want to get called a porn-hawking jackass, he might want to distance himself from the domain somehow. Hence my notes on relocating the blog and possibly changing his handle - the first being the more important action, really.
which is actually EASIER than changing your web name and retaining readership.
Bingo - because that is what it’s about - retaining readership. Which is, basically, what I (and others) have been saying all along - it is obviously more important to retain readership without interruption or inconvenience, than it is to avoid being associated with the pornography sites. $$$ is king, right?
People have said that the original sale was due to a personal economic crisis. As I understand it, that has passed. What’s the NEW excuse?
wow. now i want to buy the comic just to piss all these sanctimonious arseholes off. and for that matter i want to buy Amanda’s book, too.
way to completely undermine your goals, people!
To me, feminism is about helping women.
Maintaining a popular feminist blog is helping women. Amp would be less able to do this if he changed his handle and domain, because he would lose readership.
His agreement with the pornographers is not, as far as I can see, hurting any women. It is ensuring that one pornographer beats out other pornographers on google searches, but it does not influence the amount of porn produced or purchased. If anything, it is helping women slightly, because he is taking money from people who would otherwise use it to make more porn, and giving it to charities which aim to help women.
To his critics: is there something in this calculation I’m missing? What harm is Amp doing to justify the current attacks on him?
Gosh that would be so feminist of you, One True Vegan. If you’re anti-racist and anti-sexist won’t drop your principles the minute someone irritates you.
What is the point of these so-called feminist blogs again, because all they seem to do is encourage racists and sexists?
High readership must be great for the advertising revenue though.
actually, nothing Amp has done in particular contravenes my personal principles. for reasons enumerated endlessly above, and dismissed endlessly by you in what i think is a facile argument.
My issues with Amanda’s book, and with Seal Press, have been addressed to my satisfaction. Maybe not to your satisfaction, but you are obviously not me. i don’t think that “Being Not-Delphyne” instantly equates to “racist and sexist.” I think there are lots of not-Delphyne feminists and equality-friendly folks out there.
I would like to buy, or at least read, both the book and the comic because they sounds good, but also because on further reflection, i support peoples’ right to not have every damn fuckup held against them, all their work, and everyone they ever breathed on for all eternity.
to amend the comment above: it’s not a “right” to not have one’s fuckups held against one. That was careless language.
To restate: I do not support the continued merciless whipping of mistakes made out of unintentional blindness or under duress.
we’re none of us perfect. if all must be perfect before they may speak, listen, or produce, then society must STFU and dwindle away…
and lastly, whether Delphyne considers my actions “so feminist” or not is about #4,565,987 on my list of concerns for the day.
One True Vegan:
This:
To restate: I do not support the continued merciless whipping of mistakes made out of unintentional blindness or under duress.
May describe this.
But it absolutely fails to describe this.
And I’m not sure how to make that clearer to anyone who’s said the same as you.
Wait a minute, is this the same Ginmar who goes on and on about the gorgeous guys in the horror and SF movies that she loves to watch? The same movies that cast women according to how big their tits are and how many blowjobs they’re willing to provide the director or his male buddies? Movies made by the same industry that the porn people bottom-feed in? The difference between Amp and Ginmar would seem to be that Amp is taking money from the pornographers and directing it to feminists, while Ginmar is taking money from (a) feminist and directing it to the pornographers.
Not that you’re not allowed to enjoy a flick now and then, Ginmar, but it’s pretty rich for someone who is so thoroughly supportive of an industry that is HORRIBLY exploitative of women, to be pissed at someone who’s working it the other way. Jesus, at least he isn’t PAYING them to exploit women, the way you are.
well, like others have noted, he’s using the opportunity of renewal to direct funds which would otherwise go from pornographer to pornographer, from pornographer to feminist cause.
this, to me, is like the “pledge a picketer” program we have at my local Planned Parenthood–the protesters (and the hateporn people) are going to show no matter what. But now when they show, donors feed more money into PP’s coffers.
he can dissociate himself and have zero moneys funneled to the cause he supports, or remain, and let his readership keep the donations coming. I don’t have a problem with either choice. Certainly not enough of one to write him, and all his accomplishments, off as worthless.
Wait a minute, is this the same Ginmar who goes on and on about the gorgeous guys in the horror and SF movies that she loves to watch? The same movies that cast women according to how big their tits are and how many blowjobs they’re willing to provide the director or his male buddies? Movies made by the same industry that the porn people bottom-feed in? The difference between Amp and Ginmar would seem to be that Amp is taking money from the pornographers and directing it to feminists, while Ginmar is taking money from (a) feminist and directing it to the pornographers.
Not that you’re not allowed to enjoy a flick now and then, Ginmar, but it’s pretty rich for someone who is so thoroughly supportive of an industry that is HORRIBLY exploitative of women, to be pissed at someone who’s working it the other way. Jesus, at least he isn’t PAYING them to exploit women, the way you are.
Horribly, terribly, awfully stupid, intellectually dishonest, and cowardly, too. Where’s your email and website, asshole? Oh, wait, then again, I have been getting trolled by some asshole the past few days. Hello, jerkoff.
Other than that, too stupid to deal with.
Not that you’re not allowed to enjoy a flick now and then, Ginmar, but it’s pretty rich for someone who is so thoroughly supportive of an industry that is HORRIBLY exploitative of women, to be pissed at someone who’s working it the other way. Jesus, at least he isn’t PAYING them to exploit women, the way you are.
Why, Amp’s a hero for selling out to pornographers! I’m the one who’s exploiting women by…not exploiting them. Huh. Impeccable troll logic.
The moronic attempts to equate porn and horror above are pathetic. And then, thrashing about in his/her pond of stupidity, s/he attempt to drag in sci-fi.
Time to let Pandagon go fallow for a while.
Most feminist causes would be appalled to accept money from pornographers. This “but it’s for charidee” excuse is a complete red herring. If Amp is so keen to donate to feminist causes I’m sure he can think of other ways to do so. Hey, how about donating the profits from this book to them!
What’s really bad is that he ran away from this thread as soon as he got challenged on this thread about his support for racist-sexist pornography. If he’s so fucking proud of what he’s doing why doesn’t he face his feminist critics? He claims he supports feminism and women, I don’t see much evidence of it at all.
The equation of pornography (real people getting really fucked and tortured on film) to sci fi films (actors pretending to be hurt - the blood ain’t real folks!) is one of the more hilarious pieces of idiocy I’ve seen on this thread.
Good going, not gonna say.
The blood isn’t real. The exploitation of women on the casting couch is. Oh, but I forgot - the compromises GINMAR makes with a sexist, patriarchal society are understandable. The compromises Amp makes show he’s a woman-hating monster.
Well then you can pretty much say that about all films, not just Sci-Fi ones. You’re making a specious comparison. Unless you refuse to watch films because of the casting couch you certainly can’t hold Ginmar or anyone else to a higher standard.
And yes the compromises a woman has to make in order to survive in a male supremacist society are not on a par with a man selling out women and feminists in the most male supremacist manner possible in order to pay off the mortgage on the house he owns (I wonder how many women are on the title deeds). I don’t know any other “feminist” blogger who has sold their web domain to pornographers, only Ampersand/Barry Deutsch. If you support feminism you don’t pimp women. The cash went directly into his pocket.
I said horror films because those are the ones Ginmar goes on about on her blog. You’re right, you can say it about most any genre of film.
And you know, Ginmar might have to make compromises to survive, but I don’t think “supporting an exploitative movie culture” is something you have to do to survive. Maybe she had to join the Army to survive; maybe she has to rely on the military industrial complex for her health care to survive. But people can manage to live without movies - if they really care about the exploitation of women, if it REALLY bothers them that women are hurt by an industry.
Is my point that Ginmar is evil for watching zombie flicks? No. My point is that Ginmar is connected to the exploitation of women in a financial way just as Barry is - she is handing money to people who rape women trying to get jobs in Hollywood, as are we all when we support that particularly exploitative part of our culture. Like Barry, she is forced into a compromise in order to have the life she wants. I’m not sure that escapist movies is something that she has more of a reasonable claim to than “housing” is for a man and his family. A family that includes a disabled woman, from my understanding, as well as two girls.
“I am really angry at Barry at going too far in his compromise with the patriarchy” is a criticism that can be fairly levelled at him or at anyone who does what he did (which I find appalling too, by the way, but I don’t have moral standing to be self-righteous about it). “Barry is an EVIL SHIT whose every subsequent move should be denounced because he is an EVIL SHIT” is something different. The first one isn’t rankly hypocritical, the second one is. There might be some feminist somewhere who has the moral standing to take a pure high-horse approach to Barry’s sale; Ginmar ain’t her. She certainly isn’t a person who can go from site to site crapping on him for his horrible misdeeds; she’s got her own shit to deal with.
You’re point is rubbish. Barry didn’t compromise with the patriarchy, he *used* it to make himself money to pay to own his house.
You don’t seem to be able to understand that men and women are situated differently in the patriarchy. Women are oppressed by it, men benefit from it, as Barry did big time with his porn deal. The women being pimped out for men to masturbate over on the other hand lost out big time, as did feminism and feminists when Barry pimped his blog.
And you couldn’t get much more patriarchal than “a man and his family”. I wonder how the women and girls in that family feel about the roof over their heads being part-paid for by porn.
Are you Robert by the way? You’re specious arguments sound a lot like his, as do does your irrational sexist dislike of Ginmar. It’s pathetic the attacks you have been making on her here just because you know that Barry Deutsch/Ampersand doesn’t have a leg to stand on.
Sure sounds like Robert. The point is ludicrous, the reasoning absurd. It’s tremendously amusing.
Except that nobody got “pimped out” by Barry; the amount of porn in the universe didn’t change. One guy’s porn site got more popular than another. The level of exploitation stayed the same; the difference is that now some of the money goes to feminist charities. Is the perfect really this much the enemy of the good?
You guys seem fixated on “Robert”. Consider the possibility that there might be more than one person in the universe who thinks that Ginmar is waaaay off base.
I don’t know the women and girls in the household, but I suspect that the women and girls in the household would rather have the moral quandary of having porn help keep them alive than be out on the street feeling morally pure.
I am appalled that Barry can use someone else’s disability to justify his lack of integrity. If Barry isn’t doing this, he’s allowing others to claim this as his good.
I am a woman with two physical disabiliteis which have severely challenged me to support my family. Challenged. I did not cave, as has Barry, and I would be very angry with anyone who attempted to justify his lack of ethics on the back of my disability.
I’m very familiar with dumpster gleaning, cooking from scratch, home sewn clothing, no tv, no cell phone. I raised my family without pimping them, which in my mind is exactly what Barry and his supporters are doing. I allowed no-one to pimp my disability. I have, without any help from the ‘welfare’ system, met my physical challenges without losing my integrity. I am now almost legally blind with a progressive blindness disease. I still work.
I have also been a prostituted woman. If Barry has so little integrity that he can’t see anything wrong with living off pornography (filmed prostitution) let him put his ass on the street. Let him offer his body for porn. There are some nasty fetishes out there. I’m sure he’ll be welcomed.
I’m not fixated on him, the name just suddenly sprang into my mind as the levels of speciousness and illogic in your arguments hit new highs.