Posted by Amanda Marcotte April 25, 2008 in Uncategorized, Asides
Outside Bluestockings, photographed by Lindsay Beyerstein
Outside Bluestockings, photographed by Lindsay Beyerstein
The reading went really well. There was an active and interesting Q&A/group discussion afterwards. I even got to talk up one of my favorite subjects, which is why reproductive justice is a more productive framework than plain old reproductive rights.
Alternet has an interview with me and an excerpt from the book.
39 Responses to “More reading fun”
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Upside: Another great Lindsay picture of Amanda.
Downside: Still trying to wrap my head around the extreme reactions some have to Amanda Marcotte and her work. I say it that way because it seems like they are referring to an entirely different person from the one I know through your work over the past 5-years.
Caveat: As a white male, I may be the worst candidate to understand these issues…
I do hope you are-enjoying/have-enjoyed the trip. Never been to NYC, but Lindsay’s pictures make it sound intriguing…
Gosh, Amanda, you’re so pretty when you just wear makeup and smile!
(Runs, hides.)
That photo is everything I love about summer in New York. Though I have to say the temperature inside Bluestockings was everything I hate about summer in New York.
It’s interesting to me how the backlash went from charges of plagiarism (unfounded), to charges of appropriation (also unfounded), to this latest shame-a-thon concerning racist imagery.
In the first two instances, people were outraged by an online article that does not (to the best of my knowledge) appear in the book. Now, they are outraged by images that most people did not notice the first time they engaged with the book.
Although I don’t dispute the racist imagery, I would feel more sympathetic towards the opponents of Amanda’s book if I thought that their efforts to force her to apologize were anything more substantial than an effort to shame someone.
To me, the stuff going on at Feministe is part of what is wrong with America: this fixation with “trauma culture.” Fine, these images are hurtful to you. But why do people expect that someone must apologize and repent each time their feelings are hurt?
My feelings are hurt every time I read a newspaper! But I move on and don’t expect the NY Post or NY Times to lick my wounds by hanging their head in shame.
That is a terrific interview and book excerpt, and actually, I do kind of think of my birth control pill as “pesticide.” except it makes me happy
“To me, the stuff going on at Feministe is part of what is wrong with America: this fixation with “trauma culture.” Fine, these images are hurtful to you. But why do people expect that someone must apologize and repent each time their feelings are hurt?”
Foucault,
My first comment hasn’t been approved as of yet, and it would’ve answered that question. So I’ll try again. Do feminist book illustrations normally depict people of color in an aggressive role, and in so doing connect them to what is being fought against, in this case sexism? I didn’t think think they were supposed to. If it were a retro style comic depicting the women normally found therein and putting them in such a role, I’d be very, very surprised if it wasn’t noticed as what it was; encouraging women as being thought of as something to be against, and perpetuating Bad Things. “Oh, your feelings are hurt, but it certainly isn’t my fault you feel that way!” (meanwhile, as the racism just keeps a’flowing from the illustrations) just about sums that up, doesn’t it.
-In other news, the anti-spam measure leaves something to be desired. I can’t discern half the crap on there and there’s no refresh image option to bring one in that I might be able to recognize. I don’t see a sound symbol for others to try and listen to it, either. The amount of leaving the site and coming back to get a new word verification so that a comment can be posted is ridiculous.
*I* was pretty uncomfortable with the “tribal” imagery as well.
Old style camp can be pretty racist.
I did have a fun few minutes figuring out what the alternatives were. There’s not a great number of culterally significant ways to portray malvolently backwards people that do not involve racist sentiments. And well, if one did something akin to the Jungle Book, it wouldn’t be very fair to the animals associated with the likes of Pat Robertson.
In the end, people like the crowd over at Femeniste would have done alot better to call Amanda a sellout and move on to the next young, almost unknown, hip femenist.
escuse the mispellings of feminst, thanks…
and yet another murdering cop goes free (with a statement of a judge that gets pretty damn infuriating)
I have to disagree. At first I thought that it was a strong reaction, but now having seen the images, I agree that they fall under racism 101. There is harm being done by dismissing the legitimate critiques of appropriation and of using those images.
far be it from me to tell anyone what does or does not offend them, but if you find that offensive, what about Tarzan? The Flinstones? Hercules? John the Baptist? The ‘fur clad savage’ trope has a LOOOONG history in western iconography.
Though I have to say as someone who dabbles in book cover design, I had already thought the Tarzan Lady was a weird choice and not really that aesthetically intuitive.
This has shades of the famous Gloria Steinem Is A CIA Plant Because I Said So (And She Got A Book Deal And I Didn’t!!!!!) drama of the 70’s. We feminists love to eat our own, don’t we?
Okay, my mind must be dirty this Friday morning, but I read that as “you’re so pretty when you just wear makeup and a smile”.
I’ll also add that it’s exceedingly rare for a writer to design their own book cover and/or provide illustrations like this. So blaming this on Amanda is beyond ridiculous.
Be pissed at Seal Press or Kate Basart (the designer, according to the cover copy) if you want, but c’mon…
the opoponax:
Tarzan was a hugely racist series of books and movies.
The problem is that savagery has often been painted with a dark pigment. The humor in The Flintstones was precisely that they weren’t savages–just living a stone age life with all the problems of the modern age.
Also, I don’t quite understand why a “LOOOONG history” of something seems to negate it’s offensiveness.
The change to the cover proved that Amanda responded to the criticism and brought people’s concerns to Seal Press. Seal Press is beyond cretinous for not applying the concerns about the racist cover to the racist interior art.
Also, I don’t quite understand why a “LOOOONG history” of something seems to negate it’s offensiveness.
I don’t think the ancient Etruscans had exactly our understanding of race when they first conceptualized Heracles more than 3000 years ago. So to say “all images of savagery are obviously beyond-the-pale racist” is silly, sorry.
Though, having seen which specific illustration bugs Holly over at Feministe, I’m inclined to think that particular frame was not an appropriate choice.
Even so, what does that have to do with Amanda? She didn’t design the book’s cover, internal illustrations, marketing scheme, etc. She probably doesn’t have final say over any of that. The offensive content is Seal Press’s responsibility.
That Vegan restaurant next to Bluestockings is pretty good by the way. I use to get take out from there all the time…
Another thing I’ll say about the internal illustrations that have everyone in a (rightful) tizzy.
They suck so bad my eyes couldn’t bear to look at them, let alone parse the ethno-racial symbolism. I’m in the middle of the book now, after buying it last night, and my thought process upon seeing the section break illustrations was “OMG this hurts my eyes. Why did they think this was a good design concept? Must… Turn… Page…”
Not to be overly defensive about not noticing the racist imagery before seeing it specifically pointed out at Feministe.
Funny, I was thinking of sending my cover design portfolio to Seal and related formerly-small presses. Now I definitely won’t be sending it to any press owned by Perseus.
Yeah, watching the goalposts shifting as fast as with a GOP sex scandle, made me dismiss most of this “controversy”.
I refuse to take something serious, when the first accusation is discarded, a second is taken up, and also discarded, and finally, flailing, a third is found and clutched desperately.
“See! See! She is too evil!!!1!1!!one!”
After this stupid assault, how can Amanda even address the current issue, without seeming to validate all the rest of the bullshit?
I am going to keep reading and commenting. Thanks for not going away.
So this blogger on Feministe claims she can’t sleep at night
because of some cartoons in a book.
This is sounding more and more like a Southpark parody.
The personal demonization is ridiculous but the criticism of the images is certainly valid. I just don’t get the weird feeding frenzy reaction that I always associated with the rightwing blogosphere.
Agreed, Cat.
After this stupid assault, how can Amanda even address the current issue, without seeming to validate all the rest of the bullshit?
I’m wondering the same thing. Amanda agreed with the commenters at Feministe that the drawings were a problem, said she didn’t choose them, and said she’d sent her concerns to the publisher, and for that they’re calling her a “racist asshole” and implying that she shouldn’t be promoting her own book. It’s getting harder and harder to believe that this isn’t about maliciously destroying her career.
I would like to know more about the process involved in correcting the images than about Amanda’s career, thx.
I am also somewhat surprised that the publishers thought that this was at all a good idea?!
I mean, I bought two copies of Valenti’s book to hand out to younger women, but they were both women of color! How can I buy copies of this book? The art pretty seriously implies that it’s only for white chicks…And feminism is a message that would do a great number of black and asian women good…
It’s just bad, bad, optics and bad business decision-making to make a book as unacceptable to a substantial fraction of the market.
oddly enough, currently, yes, my friends and associates/coworker makeup is primarily black and asian…kinda funny.
Anyways, I spelled feminism right for once! Yay!
Honestly, I would proceed with caution before engaging with some of the people in the Feministe camp (ward?).
There are people in the world who have a lot of painful baggage, and all they want to do is unload it onto someone else who will apologize for being alive and for having more “privilege” than they perceive themselves as having.
The more you feed, the more they will want to tear you down. They are no different than the folks who came after you during the Edwards Campaign, except that they want to see themselves as your personal victims.
Great interview, btw. The part about the problems of framing “choice” as being the ultimate basis for feminism was particularly interesting.
Foucault, either you haven’t done the reading or you are being disingenuous. The bulk of the commentary on feministe and feministing is about the larger picture/narrative not specifically about Amanda. They are pissed at Amanda, but the bulk of the conversation is in fact about privilege, awareness and access, not slamming Amanda.
“They are pissed at Amanda, but the bulk of the conversation is in fact about privilege, awareness and access, not slamming Amanda.”
Sure, they are just being helpful little multicultural theorists, aren’t they? No, they are being a bunch of hateful twits. They went from accusing their “friend” of plagiarism and appropriating arguments that are frankly all over the Internet, to name-calling and bullying.
They are also trying to threaten/manipulate Pam Spalding into condemning Amanda or… boo hoo… they won’t comment on this blog anymore. That is not about raising awareness. That is about being a douchebag. Pam should do what she wants and say what she wants, but to threaten people with (oh horror!) not reading their blog anymore is totally immature and pathetic.
Here are some select quotes from the Feministe blog that I find disturbing. I am sure there are new fresh pieces of poop-criticism waiting to be read, but I don’t have the time
118. Roy says: “Tobes, that particular statement sounded like this to me: “Don’t be mean to Amanda. She’s our friend. We can’t condemn her as if she’s a racist asshole.” When she is clearly guilty of some major racist assholery.”
126. Seal Press, Amanda Marcotte…Proof That Feminism And Racism Go Hand In Hand « The Angry Black Woman says:
April 25th, 2008 at 11:38 am - Edit
130. Holly says: “Hugo and Jill, both your friends, said they didn’t notice the images at first as they read through the book, but have since said that they could only do this because of their white privilege. You’re in a different position, I’m afraid — you’re the author, you’re on tour right now working with this book, the finished book with pictures, every day, and presumably benefiting from its sales and exposure.”
136. Dr. Science says:
“Anyway, Holly’s post here has sealed the deal for me. Unless & until Pam — for whom I still have enormous respect until proven otherwise — gives me a persuasive reason to come back, I won’t be commenting at Pandagon any more.”
Feminism will die if Amanda dares to promote her own
book.
They are pissed at Amanda, but the bulk of the conversation is in fact about privilege, awareness and access, not slamming Amanda.
Of course not. Slagging on Amanda is just a happy bonus.
Look, 99% of our idiot media will only pay attention to the arguments raised regularly on this blog if they’re coming from a pretty white woman–and yeah, I know that *sucks* to the nth power of suck, but there it is. But Amanda is an eloquent spokeswoman for feminism, and this state of affairs isn’t her fault. And no, I’m not going to throw accusations of jealousy at the women of color in the blogosphere who feel ripped off–it must be galling to work so hard for so long in this area and then have journalists go running to someone else first. But shredding Amanda for her success won’t set things right either.
My problem is that there is no presumption of good will. Even the most uncharitable could follow this rule: “Never attribute to malice what can easily be explained by stupidity.” Although I am reluctant to believe this, the breadth and depth of the piling on is starting to make me suspect crab mentality is at work.
What did it for me was when people complained that only white women had book deals and other people responded with the simple reality that to get a book deal you have to submit a proposal that fact was dismissed as somehow racist in itself and was translated into “JUST DO IT SPICS!”
No, I’m lying. What did it for me was that this has been stupid from the beginning, the obvious result of people with old axes to grind.
Word about the moving goalposts.
The most disturbing thing here is that this is a scenario that plays out almost verbatim every few months, with pretty much all the same people saying all the same things, and it’s been going on for years.
At this point it’s performance art.
Whatever legitimate issues there are here are obscured by that fact. The other night I was randomly reading a bunch of other blog blowups - sammich-gate, Burqa-gate, Jesus General, “cunt”, pie-gate, various people “quitting the internet”, etc etc etc…they all read exactly the same, to the point you could cut and paste them into this discussion.
For some reason the feminist blogosphere does not know how to express itself in any way other than a shouting match. People seem to have forgotten how to dial down the outrage.
I’m wading in….
I get that a lot of the criticisms have been super-snarky, sarcastic, personal and sometimes downright mean. I was pretty shocked and angry about the tone this was taking and it sure felt like a self-righteous pile-on at first.
But as much as I think the plagiarism charges are crap — I also really don’t think this is a conspiracy to torpedo Amanda’s career, and I think saying that is just as unfair as claiming that Amanda plagiarized Bfp. After reading lots and lots of threads on this, I’m slowly coming to the conclusion that where there’s smoke, there’s some kind of fire — not that Amanda did anything intentionally or personally, but that there is something wrong going on in the way that feminists of color are generally marginalized and made invisible. This became a flashpoint for that anger. Amanda didn’t do this intentionally and I think it’s unfair to claim or imply that she did. But maybe Amanda, as a blogger with a big megaphone, can raise some awareness of it and push some changes.
Cat of many faces @18, actually, I do think Amanda can address the current issue — even make some form of apology — and still maintain her integrity, without groveling or self-flagellating. I think that needs to happen, actually. Right now, fairly or unfairly, Amanda’s coming off as apathetic about actual issues of racism within feminism, and I fucking really hate to see that happen when I know that’s not her intent.
Addendum: The “speciesist” aspect of this is so fucking ridiculous. NOBODY can withstand that kind of scrutiny.
The number of feminist litmus-tests that have been invented on the spot is rather staggering.
The only winners here are the Republicans and MRA’s pointing and laughing from the sidelines at the dumb wimmenz fighting over of a fucking Alligator on the cover of a book!
What I love to say about right-wingers, that they defy parody, is sadly true here.
only white women had book deals
Say whaaaaaah?
Should someone inform bell hooks about this?!
God, I’m glad I never got that far down into the comments.
Feminism is probably the only area of publishing outside of niche ‘ethnic’ markets where that is grossly untrue.
At Bluestockings yesterday before the reading I was browsing around, and there certainly seemed to be quite a few books available by feminists of color.
I’ll grant that it’s probably easier for a straight white woman to gain MSM acceptance, or to be seen in mainstream color as a “spokesperson for feminism”, in the way someone like Gloria Steinem always has been. It also could be true that more book deals go to white women, their books are printed in wider numbers, by larger publishers, more widely reviewed in the press, and/or stocked more often at mainstream bookstores like Borders and Barnes & Noble.
But since when do only white women get book deals?
in mainstream color
Sorry, that should have been mainstream culture, I think?
Not sure whether it’s a typo, a freudian slip, or something from the work half of my brain sneaking into the blog half. Either way, carry on.
I completely understand what Brownfemipower’s complaint was: she and other people of color have been writing about feminism and immigration issues for years, and yet it’s only taken seriously when a white person picks up the banner. I even get the appropriation complaints — a simple “I’ve been reading and hearing from [X, Y and Z] about how immigration is a feminist issue — I think they’re right, and here’s why …” probably could have forestalled at least some of the complaints.
However, as soon as people started claiming that there was out-and-out plagiarism and tried to prove that Amanda copied a speech that she very clearly could not have been present to hear, that side lost a lot of credibility. Not only that, but it distracted from the actual point that BFP was originally trying to make about how the voices of people of color get drowned out.
It’s just so ironic to me that BFP was complaining (rightly) about being silenced and drowned out and a few of overzealous supporters proceeded to … drown her out and draw attention away from the actual issue that BFP was complaining about in the first place by turning it into an accusation against a single person instead of an institutional problem that needs to be worked on.
Mnemosyne - Exactly so.
It’s now become a bunch of white women yelling “Racist!” and BFP seems to have become incidental. It’s a damn shame, because what could have been a productive conversation between BFP and Amanda that everyone could have benefited from is instead a gleeful rush to, as the opoponax said, eat our own.
Amanda, just a word of support. You’ve been eaten alive by the right, and now by the left. Keep fighting, keep moving on. It’s ridiculous the way every single sin of middle-class white womanhood is being piled on YOUR head. Don’t let being turned into symbol make you lose your sense of self.