<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><!-- generator="wordpress/1.5.1-alpha" -->
<rss version="2.0" 
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/">
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Recipe: Grab menu, point to desired dish</title>
	<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/18/7075/</link>
	<description>Just another WordPress weblog</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 11 Feb 2012 21:29:48 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=1.5.1-alpha</generator>

	<item>
		<title>by: galnoir</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/18/7075/#comment-511078</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 12:49:18 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/18/7075/#comment-511078</guid>
					<description>Having recently given a professional presentation on online copyright issues, I can say with certainty that yes, it &lt;strong&gt;is&lt;/strong&gt; about the copyright infringement. Like or loathe the DMCA, what the McCain campaign did here is a clear violation of it, and the Food Network would've been within their rights to issue a take-down order to the campaign. Frankly, they would've been within their rights to do so even if the recipes had been attributed to the Food Network—just reprinting without permission is a DMCA violation. 

Now, whether FN would've done so depends on whether (a) they got wind of it; (b) they decided it hurt the market value of those recipes; or (c) who knows? They might've given it a pass if the network execs were McCain supporters.

And while a random list of ingredients cannot be copyrighted, a recipe certainly can. Technically, anything published without an explicit copyright notice before 1989 is in the public domain; anything published since is copyrighted—even if it doesn't have a copyright notice. So, great-great-Grandma's apple pie recipe may be in the public domain if it's her original recipe; if she got it from a recipe book and didn't alter it, it's likely copyrighted ... but the likelihood of your getting busted for handing that recipe around to friends is pretty darn low. (If you reprint it online, the likelihood increases a little.)

Me? Like most people here, most of my recipes come from the Web, or from &lt;em&gt;Cooking Light&lt;/em&gt; magazine. I don't really make any family recipes from my side because my mother ... wasn't a great cook. I do make a pumpkin bread recipe that I got from MIL, which has been passed through a few generations from some forgotten cookbook. I've tinkered with the spices, though, so I think my version counts as a derivative work now.

As for why this matters, I'll quote Ghost of Joe Liebling's Dog:

&quot;Nobody forced the McCain campaign people to put up Mrs. McCain’s supposedly-favorite recipes, just as nobody forced them to delegate the job to, supposedly, an intern, who was not forced to plagiarize them.

The McCain campaign people cared, and apparently they did this stuff this way because this is the way they do stuff they care about.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Having recently given a professional presentation on online copyright issues, I can say with certainty that yes, it <strong>is</strong> about the copyright infringement. Like or loathe the DMCA, what the McCain campaign did here is a clear violation of it, and the Food Network would&#8217;ve been within their rights to issue a take-down order to the campaign. Frankly, they would&#8217;ve been within their rights to do so even if the recipes had been attributed to the Food Network—just reprinting without permission is a DMCA violation. </p>
	<p>Now, whether FN would&#8217;ve done so depends on whether (a) they got wind of it; (b) they decided it hurt the market value of those recipes; or (c) who knows? They might&#8217;ve given it a pass if the network execs were McCain supporters.</p>
	<p>And while a random list of ingredients cannot be copyrighted, a recipe certainly can. Technically, anything published without an explicit copyright notice before 1989 is in the public domain; anything published since is copyrighted—even if it doesn&#8217;t have a copyright notice. So, great-great-Grandma&#8217;s apple pie recipe may be in the public domain if it&#8217;s her original recipe; if she got it from a recipe book and didn&#8217;t alter it, it&#8217;s likely copyrighted &#8230; but the likelihood of your getting busted for handing that recipe around to friends is pretty darn low. (If you reprint it online, the likelihood increases a little.)</p>
	<p>Me? Like most people here, most of my recipes come from the Web, or from <em>Cooking Light</em> magazine. I don&#8217;t really make any family recipes from my side because my mother &#8230; wasn&#8217;t a great cook. I do make a pumpkin bread recipe that I got from MIL, which has been passed through a few generations from some forgotten cookbook. I&#8217;ve tinkered with the spices, though, so I think my version counts as a derivative work now.</p>
	<p>As for why this matters, I&#8217;ll quote Ghost of Joe Liebling&#8217;s Dog:</p>
	<p>&#8220;Nobody forced the McCain campaign people to put up Mrs. McCain’s supposedly-favorite recipes, just as nobody forced them to delegate the job to, supposedly, an intern, who was not forced to plagiarize them.</p>
	<p>The McCain campaign people cared, and apparently they did this stuff this way because this is the way they do stuff they care about.&#8221;
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: shano</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/18/7075/#comment-510492</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:56:39 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/18/7075/#comment-510492</guid>
					<description>The Cindy money has a mafia history....her father was an employee of Kemper Marley, a liquor distributor in Phoenix.  Marley was one of the mafia bosses in Las Vegas/Phoenix.

Hensley took the fall for Marley and did some time in prison for illegal liquor sales.  When he got out, Marley rewarded him with the beer distributorship.  There was also some mafia involvement in the purchase of Ruidoso Race Track in N.M.

A reporter investigating Marley was killed by a car bomb, and his last words implicated the sydicate who owned Ruidoso.  Marley also put out a contract on the AG Babbitt.

So, Cindy is a daughter of the mob.  McCain was supported by this dirty money in Arizona, to the effect that all employees of the Bud company were 'encouraged' to 'support' McCain.  Everyone of a certain age in Arizona knows this story.  teh google will tell you more.

What is the statute of limitations on mafia money?  No wonder she wants to 'protect her children' by not releasing her tax returns.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The Cindy money has a mafia history&#8230;.her father was an employee of Kemper Marley, a liquor distributor in Phoenix.  Marley was one of the mafia bosses in Las Vegas/Phoenix.</p>
	<p>Hensley took the fall for Marley and did some time in prison for illegal liquor sales.  When he got out, Marley rewarded him with the beer distributorship.  There was also some mafia involvement in the purchase of Ruidoso Race Track in N.M.</p>
	<p>A reporter investigating Marley was killed by a car bomb, and his last words implicated the sydicate who owned Ruidoso.  Marley also put out a contract on the AG Babbitt.</p>
	<p>So, Cindy is a daughter of the mob.  McCain was supported by this dirty money in Arizona, to the effect that all employees of the Bud company were &#8216;encouraged&#8217; to &#8217;support&#8217; McCain.  Everyone of a certain age in Arizona knows this story.  teh google will tell you more.</p>
	<p>What is the statute of limitations on mafia money?  No wonder she wants to &#8216;protect her children&#8217; by not releasing her tax returns.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Ghost of Joe Liebling's Dog</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/18/7075/#comment-510070</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 09:15:48 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/18/7075/#comment-510070</guid>
					<description>I’m a bit curious about who out there actually cares about favorite recipes of potential presidents’ spouses.
===

Nobody forced the McCain campaign people to put up Mrs. McCain's supposedly-favorite recipes, just as nobody forced them to delegate the job to, supposedly, an intern, who was not forced to plagiarize them.

The McCain campaign people cared, and apparently they did this stuff this way because this is the way they do stuff they care about.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I’m a bit curious about who out there actually cares about favorite recipes of potential presidents’ spouses.<br />
===</p>
	<p>Nobody forced the McCain campaign people to put up Mrs. McCain&#8217;s supposedly-favorite recipes, just as nobody forced them to delegate the job to, supposedly, an intern, who was not forced to plagiarize them.</p>
	<p>The McCain campaign people cared, and apparently they did this stuff this way because this is the way they do stuff they care about.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: ira wyatt</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/18/7075/#comment-510035</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 22:22:43 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/18/7075/#comment-510035</guid>
					<description>Well I, for one, have handed-down family recipes. Although I don't use them much. I cook with wild abandon and cannot bothered to use actual recipes at all most of the time. (In my head, most of my recipes look pretty much like this: two handfuls of some kind of starchy food and about a cup of random chopped vegetables per person; add soy sauce, spaghetti sauce, or hot sauce to taste.) 

As for Cindy McCain, well, I agree that it's not totally implausible that the food network recipes really are her favorites. It still would have been better to link rather than copy. And I'm a bit curious about who out there actually cares about favorite recipes of potential presidents' spouses. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well I, for one, have handed-down family recipes. Although I don&#8217;t use them much. I cook with wild abandon and cannot bothered to use actual recipes at all most of the time. (In my head, most of my recipes look pretty much like this: two handfuls of some kind of starchy food and about a cup of random chopped vegetables per person; add soy sauce, spaghetti sauce, or hot sauce to taste.) </p>
	<p>As for Cindy McCain, well, I agree that it&#8217;s not totally implausible that the food network recipes really are her favorites. It still would have been better to link rather than copy. And I&#8217;m a bit curious about who out there actually cares about favorite recipes of potential presidents&#8217; spouses.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: mythago</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/18/7075/#comment-510006</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 16:51:44 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/18/7075/#comment-510006</guid>
					<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
It’s a goddam recipe. They aren’t owned by the people who make them.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I see you're serving Seared Red Herring today?

The issue isn't, really, whether the McCain campaign owes the Food Network damages. It's that they ripped off recipes that have nothing to do with anything Cindy McCain's ever done, in order to project the folksy housewife image.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<blockquote><p>
It’s a goddam recipe. They aren’t owned by the people who make them.</p></blockquote>
	<p>I see you&#8217;re serving Seared Red Herring today?</p>
	<p>The issue isn&#8217;t, really, whether the McCain campaign owes the Food Network damages. It&#8217;s that they ripped off recipes that have nothing to do with anything Cindy McCain&#8217;s ever done, in order to project the folksy housewife image.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: jackd</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/18/7075/#comment-509958</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 11:15:26 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/18/7075/#comment-509958</guid>
					<description>sharon, agreed that some of the criticism of Cindy McCain is off base.  The legitimate attack is on the campaign.  The point of the recipe web page was to buttress the idea that Cindy plays the traditional wifely role in the McCain marriage, and secondarily that the McCain's are &quot;normal&quot; rather than creatures of wealth and privilege.  

It's possible to point out the many levels of dishonesty going on here, all the way from having Cindy's name on a web page that I doubt she ever saw to the pattern of disguising the reality of who these people are, without nasty sexist comments about cosmetic surgery and the like. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>sharon, agreed that some of the criticism of Cindy McCain is off base.  The legitimate attack is on the campaign.  The point of the recipe web page was to buttress the idea that Cindy plays the traditional wifely role in the McCain marriage, and secondarily that the McCain&#8217;s are &#8220;normal&#8221; rather than creatures of wealth and privilege.  </p>
	<p>It&#8217;s possible to point out the many levels of dishonesty going on here, all the way from having Cindy&#8217;s name on a web page that I doubt she ever saw to the pattern of disguising the reality of who these people are, without nasty sexist comments about cosmetic surgery and the like.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: the opoponax</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/18/7075/#comment-509951</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 10:50:08 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/18/7075/#comment-509951</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;Is the concern here really about intellectual property rights?&lt;/i&gt;

In terms of how and why this garnered media attention, yes, it's because of intellectual property rights.  

The McCain campaign was discovered to have stolen the recipes from the Food Network website, where they were credited to two cooking shows, and not to Cindy McCain.

If it was just the left trying to find something to mock about Cindy McCain, I'm not sure we would be taking this particular tack.  Not to mention of course that I'm pretty sure this story did not break on the left, but was discovered and made public by the MSM.  It's not like this first appeared in Utne Reader or something...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Is the concern here really about intellectual property rights?</i></p>
	<p>In terms of how and why this garnered media attention, yes, it&#8217;s because of intellectual property rights.  </p>
	<p>The McCain campaign was discovered to have stolen the recipes from the Food Network website, where they were credited to two cooking shows, and not to Cindy McCain.</p>
	<p>If it was just the left trying to find something to mock about Cindy McCain, I&#8217;m not sure we would be taking this particular tack.  Not to mention of course that I&#8217;m pretty sure this story did not break on the left, but was discovered and made public by the MSM.  It&#8217;s not like this first appeared in Utne Reader or something&#8230;
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: sharon</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/18/7075/#comment-509938</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 10:22:44 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/18/7075/#comment-509938</guid>
					<description>Is the concern here &lt;i&gt;really&lt;/i&gt; about intellectual property rights? Or is it more the fact that the Left is taking potshots at an accomplished, wealthy, high-profile woman because her husband is the Republican presidential candidate? I suspect it is the latter, particularly when Amanda says she &quot;doesn't care&quot; whether or not Cindy McCain cooks. The fact is, fussing over this is just as sexist as fussing over Hillary Clinton's cookie recipe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Is the concern here <i>really</i> about intellectual property rights? Or is it more the fact that the Left is taking potshots at an accomplished, wealthy, high-profile woman because her husband is the Republican presidential candidate? I suspect it is the latter, particularly when Amanda says she &#8220;doesn&#8217;t care&#8221; whether or not Cindy McCain cooks. The fact is, fussing over this is just as sexist as fussing over Hillary Clinton&#8217;s cookie recipe.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: the opoponax</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/18/7075/#comment-509933</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 09:57:18 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/18/7075/#comment-509933</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;It’s a goddam recipe. They aren’t owned by the people who make them.&lt;/i&gt;

Unless, of course, they're copyright, and you simply cut and paste from the web, word for word from whoever it is that writes out Giada deLaurentiis and Rachel Ray's recipes.  

Recipes from a cookbook or other published source (I'm pretty sure the web counts, and their appearance on the Food Network totally counts) are intellectual property, subject to the same rules as anything else.  

If it turned out your mother's former neighbor's mother in law's sister got her recipe out of a Martha Stewart cookbook, and you claimed it as your own in some kind of public sense (for instance said so on your widely visible website), you would be subject to copyright law if anyone ever discovered that was the case.  

OK, off to find something to do with these Portobello mushrooms I picked up at the greenmarket yesterday...  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>It’s a goddam recipe. They aren’t owned by the people who make them.</i></p>
	<p>Unless, of course, they&#8217;re copyright, and you simply cut and paste from the web, word for word from whoever it is that writes out Giada deLaurentiis and Rachel Ray&#8217;s recipes.  </p>
	<p>Recipes from a cookbook or other published source (I&#8217;m pretty sure the web counts, and their appearance on the Food Network totally counts) are intellectual property, subject to the same rules as anything else.  </p>
	<p>If it turned out your mother&#8217;s former neighbor&#8217;s mother in law&#8217;s sister got her recipe out of a Martha Stewart cookbook, and you claimed it as your own in some kind of public sense (for instance said so on your widely visible website), you would be subject to copyright law if anyone ever discovered that was the case.  </p>
	<p>OK, off to find something to do with these Portobello mushrooms I picked up at the greenmarket yesterday&#8230;
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: jenniferjuniper</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/18/7075/#comment-509929</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 09:38:04 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/18/7075/#comment-509929</guid>
					<description>&quot;I completely agree with the idea that most people don’t have “family recipes” any more, but the key to plagiarism is LACK OF CITATION. If the website had just said something like, “I’d been looking for a lighter dish than my traditional chicken-fried steak, so I found this great ahi recipe on the Food Network and now I make it all the time,” everything would be hunky-dory. It’s the lie that matters, pretending she made it up, not the lack of tradition.&quot;

Oh please.  When I got married, my mother gave me a bunch of recipe cards from her group of friends.  I haven't ever made half of them, but whatever.  They're not trademarked or copyrighted.  If I made one and it became my favorite whatever, I don't really need to credit the other person (&quot;my mother's former neighbor's mother-in-law's sister's favorite recipe for spaghetti sauce&quot;).  It's a goddam recipe.  They aren't owned by the people who make them.     
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;I completely agree with the idea that most people don’t have “family recipes” any more, but the key to plagiarism is LACK OF CITATION. If the website had just said something like, “I’d been looking for a lighter dish than my traditional chicken-fried steak, so I found this great ahi recipe on the Food Network and now I make it all the time,” everything would be hunky-dory. It’s the lie that matters, pretending she made it up, not the lack of tradition.&#8221;</p>
	<p>Oh please.  When I got married, my mother gave me a bunch of recipe cards from her group of friends.  I haven&#8217;t ever made half of them, but whatever.  They&#8217;re not trademarked or copyrighted.  If I made one and it became my favorite whatever, I don&#8217;t really need to credit the other person (&#8221;my mother&#8217;s former neighbor&#8217;s mother-in-law&#8217;s sister&#8217;s favorite recipe for spaghetti sauce&#8221;).  It&#8217;s a goddam recipe.  They aren&#8217;t owned by the people who make them.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
</channel>
</rss>

