<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><!-- generator="wordpress/1.5.1-alpha" -->
<rss version="2.0" 
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/">
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: There&#8217;s no way this is real</title>
	<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/17/theres-no-way-this-is-real/</link>
	<description>Just another WordPress weblog</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 13:46:08 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=1.5.1-alpha</generator>

	<item>
		<title>by: tzs</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/17/theres-no-way-this-is-real/#comment-509974</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 12:51:35 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/17/theres-no-way-this-is-real/#comment-509974</guid>
					<description>Unfortunately, this just feeds into the meme of modern artists as being self-obsessed wanker bullshit creeps.

Yeah, it &quot;got people talking.&quot; Big deal.  The fact that this little performance-art trick is going to be taken up into the meme of Reality (TM) for the anti-choice wingnuts and get endlessly recycled and thrown back in our faces as &quot;something that really happened!&quot; doesn't seem to have crossed her tiny little brain.  Or maybe it did, and she's an anti-choicer deliberately trying to produce so-called &quot;evidence&quot; that they can quote in fund-raising literature down the road.

In which case this is nothing more than the deliberate manufacturing of something equivalent to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and should be denounced.

Frankly, based on that art-diatribe pseudo-Foucaulting bilge in her so-called statement, I'm more likely to write her off as a clueless idiot. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Unfortunately, this just feeds into the meme of modern artists as being self-obsessed wanker bullshit creeps.</p>
	<p>Yeah, it &#8220;got people talking.&#8221; Big deal.  The fact that this little performance-art trick is going to be taken up into the meme of Reality &#8482; for the anti-choice wingnuts and get endlessly recycled and thrown back in our faces as &#8220;something that really happened!&#8221; doesn&#8217;t seem to have crossed her tiny little brain.  Or maybe it did, and she&#8217;s an anti-choicer deliberately trying to produce so-called &#8220;evidence&#8221; that they can quote in fund-raising literature down the road.</p>
	<p>In which case this is nothing more than the deliberate manufacturing of something equivalent to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and should be denounced.</p>
	<p>Frankly, based on that art-diatribe pseudo-Foucaulting bilge in her so-called statement, I&#8217;m more likely to write her off as a clueless idiot.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: inge</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/17/theres-no-way-this-is-real/#comment-509880</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Apr 2008 17:15:52 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/17/theres-no-way-this-is-real/#comment-509880</guid>
					<description>sixtiesliberal, quoting: &lt;i&gt; In a sense, the act of conception occurs when the viewer assigns the term &quot;miscarriage&quot; or &quot;period&quot; to that blood.&lt;/i&gt;

Schroedinger's embryo. 
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>sixtiesliberal, quoting: <i> In a sense, the act of conception occurs when the viewer assigns the term &#8220;miscarriage&#8221; or &#8220;period&#8221; to that blood.</i></p>
	<p>Schroedinger&#8217;s embryo.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Eric, Rejector of Memes</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/17/theres-no-way-this-is-real/#comment-509865</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Apr 2008 16:11:41 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/17/theres-no-way-this-is-real/#comment-509865</guid>
					<description>I think she should be arrested, but for CRIMES AGAINST THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE.. Jesus Christos, that art school cant is the very definition of obfuscatory. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think she should be arrested, but for CRIMES AGAINST THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE.. Jesus Christos, that art school cant is the very definition of obfuscatory.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: saltyC</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/17/theres-no-way-this-is-real/#comment-509805</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Apr 2008 11:27:23 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/17/theres-no-way-this-is-real/#comment-509805</guid>
					<description>Mitchforth: Anyway, Shvartz makes none of these points, and that’s part of the reason her art is so bad.

Me: No the whole point is that new ideas will be conceived in the viewer's mind. It's not the artist's job to spell it out for you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Mitchforth: Anyway, Shvartz makes none of these points, and that’s part of the reason her art is so bad.</p>
	<p>Me: No the whole point is that new ideas will be conceived in the viewer&#8217;s mind. It&#8217;s not the artist&#8217;s job to spell it out for you.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Mitchforth</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/17/theres-no-way-this-is-real/#comment-509717</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 20:42:48 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/17/theres-no-way-this-is-real/#comment-509717</guid>
					<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
Mnem, jargon translated: The difference between miscarrying and menstruating is biologically minimal, and only is meaningful because society invests meaning in the act of impregnating a woman. In fact, you could argue that impregnating a woman is considered more meaningful than giving birth, which of course is because we live in a world where men are supposed to have control of everything important. Legalizing abortion was a social act that suggested that the act of going through with a pregnancy and birth was more important than ejaculating into a woman, and that women should get the credit for making babies more than men.

Legalizing abortion was a conceptual death blow to patriarchy, which is of course, why it’s the major point of struggle in the culture wars, though gay marriage, which drains “traditional” marriage of its patriarchal meaning (that men own women) is quickly catching on it.

People think the central question in the abortion debate is “when” life begins, but that’s a red herring. More important and direct is the question of who we assign the power to start life—the man? Or the woman? Pro-choicers say women create life through the process of pregnancy. Anti-choicers say men create life through the process of ejaculation. 
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Are you sure you want to put your words into her mouth? She's about the worst advocate for any viewpoint imaginable, and a lot of pro-choice advocates are not pleased about this at all. 

I fully agree that the &quot;life begins at conception&quot; argument is factually stupid, and the continuation of this myth is hampering medical research that could cure Alzheimer's and other diseases, as well as dramatically and unnecessarily increasing the cost of fertility treatments because unused embryos have to be preserved indefinitely instead of discarded. 

It is a biological fact that fertilized eggs routinely fail to attach to the uterus, and are discharged in what appears to be a normal menstruation at an early stage of embryonic development. 

However, my understanding is that later in the pregnancy, miscarriage is physically and emotionally traumatic, and the suffering of women who lose pregnancies that they are trying to take to term shouldn't be discounted.

Anyway, Shvartz makes none of these points, and that's part of the reason her art is so bad. I don't think projecting video of herself menstruating onto a surface smeared with blood makes any salient point whatsoever about abortion, gay marriage, feminism or anything else, and I think people who are trying to advance their positions on those issues gain rather minimal benefit from Shvartz's assistance.

By the way, why is legalized abortion the liberating achievement rather than the invention of the birth control pill?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<blockquote><p>
Mnem, jargon translated: The difference between miscarrying and menstruating is biologically minimal, and only is meaningful because society invests meaning in the act of impregnating a woman. In fact, you could argue that impregnating a woman is considered more meaningful than giving birth, which of course is because we live in a world where men are supposed to have control of everything important. Legalizing abortion was a social act that suggested that the act of going through with a pregnancy and birth was more important than ejaculating into a woman, and that women should get the credit for making babies more than men.</p>
	<p>Legalizing abortion was a conceptual death blow to patriarchy, which is of course, why it’s the major point of struggle in the culture wars, though gay marriage, which drains “traditional” marriage of its patriarchal meaning (that men own women) is quickly catching on it.</p>
	<p>People think the central question in the abortion debate is “when” life begins, but that’s a red herring. More important and direct is the question of who we assign the power to start life—the man? Or the woman? Pro-choicers say women create life through the process of pregnancy. Anti-choicers say men create life through the process of ejaculation.
</p></blockquote>
	<p>Are you sure you want to put your words into her mouth? She&#8217;s about the worst advocate for any viewpoint imaginable, and a lot of pro-choice advocates are not pleased about this at all. </p>
	<p>I fully agree that the &#8220;life begins at conception&#8221; argument is factually stupid, and the continuation of this myth is hampering medical research that could cure Alzheimer&#8217;s and other diseases, as well as dramatically and unnecessarily increasing the cost of fertility treatments because unused embryos have to be preserved indefinitely instead of discarded. </p>
	<p>It is a biological fact that fertilized eggs routinely fail to attach to the uterus, and are discharged in what appears to be a normal menstruation at an early stage of embryonic development. </p>
	<p>However, my understanding is that later in the pregnancy, miscarriage is physically and emotionally traumatic, and the suffering of women who lose pregnancies that they are trying to take to term shouldn&#8217;t be discounted.</p>
	<p>Anyway, Shvartz makes none of these points, and that&#8217;s part of the reason her art is so bad. I don&#8217;t think projecting video of herself menstruating onto a surface smeared with blood makes any salient point whatsoever about abortion, gay marriage, feminism or anything else, and I think people who are trying to advance their positions on those issues gain rather minimal benefit from Shvartz&#8217;s assistance.</p>
	<p>By the way, why is legalized abortion the liberating achievement rather than the invention of the birth control pill?
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Devilham</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/17/theres-no-way-this-is-real/#comment-509641</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 14:52:29 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/17/theres-no-way-this-is-real/#comment-509641</guid>
					<description>I have to admit that I didn't think this through  enough to get the angle of &quot;if you could do it yourself, why aren't people doing it themselves?&quot;.  That being said, as a piece of art, while I am a little taken back by it, I have to admit that it is an effective, and therefore succesful piece.  It's shocking, yes, but it's also achieving it's goal of sparking discussion, good or bad.  Dismissing the artist is foolish (as I said in the last sentance, she was succesful in her goal, how can we dismiss that?), and fanning your face and claiming the concept gives you the vapors?  Please.  Movies, torture porn, books, video games media in general has just as many shocking visuals and concepts as this piece, get over the artist, and lets discuss the issue as intended.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I have to admit that I didn&#8217;t think this through  enough to get the angle of &#8220;if you could do it yourself, why aren&#8217;t people doing it themselves?&#8221;.  That being said, as a piece of art, while I am a little taken back by it, I have to admit that it is an effective, and therefore succesful piece.  It&#8217;s shocking, yes, but it&#8217;s also achieving it&#8217;s goal of sparking discussion, good or bad.  Dismissing the artist is foolish (as I said in the last sentance, she was succesful in her goal, how can we dismiss that?), and fanning your face and claiming the concept gives you the vapors?  Please.  Movies, torture porn, books, video games media in general has just as many shocking visuals and concepts as this piece, get over the artist, and lets discuss the issue as intended.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Em</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/17/theres-no-way-this-is-real/#comment-509619</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:57:24 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/17/theres-no-way-this-is-real/#comment-509619</guid>
					<description>Performance art that I get.  That's a unique experience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Performance art that I get.  That&#8217;s a unique experience.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Amanda Marcotte</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/17/theres-no-way-this-is-real/#comment-509616</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:52:47 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/17/theres-no-way-this-is-real/#comment-509616</guid>
					<description>I love arty farty stuff.  I think a lot of profound concepts are so simple on their surface, people don't spend time really thinking about them, and art can give you that opportunity.  

And dismissing artists as stupid is an old trick, and one that artists kind of play into, because they refuse to explain themselves straightforwardly, because they want you to engage with the art.  I suspect that she's actually quite aware of what she's doing.  The anti-choice nuts were swapping a video around of her talking about patriarchal heteronormativity, and the implication of course was, &quot;Teach women to read and look what happens,&quot; but it did demonstrate that she's not a dumb fuck who got lucky, but someone who understands the unspoken conceptual disagreements in the debate and who decided to expose them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I love arty farty stuff.  I think a lot of profound concepts are so simple on their surface, people don&#8217;t spend time really thinking about them, and art can give you that opportunity.  </p>
	<p>And dismissing artists as stupid is an old trick, and one that artists kind of play into, because they refuse to explain themselves straightforwardly, because they want you to engage with the art.  I suspect that she&#8217;s actually quite aware of what she&#8217;s doing.  The anti-choice nuts were swapping a video around of her talking about patriarchal heteronormativity, and the implication of course was, &#8220;Teach women to read and look what happens,&#8221; but it did demonstrate that she&#8217;s not a dumb fuck who got lucky, but someone who understands the unspoken conceptual disagreements in the debate and who decided to expose them.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Mnemosyne</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/17/theres-no-way-this-is-real/#comment-509613</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:41:23 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/17/theres-no-way-this-is-real/#comment-509613</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;Mnem, jargon translated&lt;/i&gt;

Oh, I understood the jargon.  I just think you're giving her way, way too much credit for deep thought and political awareness.  

But, then, I come from the artistic tradition that says, &quot;If you want to send a message, use Western Union,&quot; so I don't have a lot of patience for performance art.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Mnem, jargon translated</i></p>
	<p>Oh, I understood the jargon.  I just think you&#8217;re giving her way, way too much credit for deep thought and political awareness.  </p>
	<p>But, then, I come from the artistic tradition that says, &#8220;If you want to send a message, use Western Union,&#8221; so I don&#8217;t have a lot of patience for performance art.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Amanda Marcotte</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/17/theres-no-way-this-is-real/#comment-509612</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:34:07 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/17/theres-no-way-this-is-real/#comment-509612</guid>
					<description>Mnem, jargon translated: The difference between miscarrying and menstruating is biologically minimal, and only is meaningful because society invests meaning in the act of impregnating a woman.  In fact, you could argue that impregnating a woman is considered more meaningful than giving birth, which of course is because we live in a world where men are supposed to have control of everything important.  Legalizing abortion was a social act that suggested that the act of going through with a pregnancy and birth was more important than ejaculating into a woman, and that women should get the credit for making babies more than men.

Legalizing abortion was a conceptual death blow to patriarchy, which is of course, why it's the major point of struggle in the culture wars, though gay marriage, which drains &quot;traditional&quot; marriage of its patriarchal meaning (that men own women) is quickly catching on it.

People think the central question in the abortion debate is &quot;when&quot; life begins, but that's a red herring.  More important and direct is the question of who we assign the power to start life---the man?  Or the woman?  Pro-choicers say women create life through the process of pregnancy.  Anti-choicers say men create life through the process of ejaculation. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Mnem, jargon translated: The difference between miscarrying and menstruating is biologically minimal, and only is meaningful because society invests meaning in the act of impregnating a woman.  In fact, you could argue that impregnating a woman is considered more meaningful than giving birth, which of course is because we live in a world where men are supposed to have control of everything important.  Legalizing abortion was a social act that suggested that the act of going through with a pregnancy and birth was more important than ejaculating into a woman, and that women should get the credit for making babies more than men.</p>
	<p>Legalizing abortion was a conceptual death blow to patriarchy, which is of course, why it&#8217;s the major point of struggle in the culture wars, though gay marriage, which drains &#8220;traditional&#8221; marriage of its patriarchal meaning (that men own women) is quickly catching on it.</p>
	<p>People think the central question in the abortion debate is &#8220;when&#8221; life begins, but that&#8217;s a red herring.  More important and direct is the question of who we assign the power to start life&#8212;the man?  Or the woman?  Pro-choicers say women create life through the process of pregnancy.  Anti-choicers say men create life through the process of ejaculation.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
</channel>
</rss>
