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	<title>Comments on: Fear of a bimbo planet</title>
	<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/08/7019/</link>
	<description>Just another WordPress weblog</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 00:18:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: me</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/08/7019/#comment-508893</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 06:36:59 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/08/7019/#comment-508893</guid>
					<description>&quot;the main reason women are reluctant to get mixed up with technical things is that women aren’t allowed to make mistakes, especially about, or around, machinery.&quot;
This is true to some extent, but I've observed a tendency amongst some women to encourage men to do &quot;spatial&quot; tasks (*) so they don't have to, because they find them frustrating. Actively, and despite encouragement to learn how to do the task unaided. You can argue that this is a consequence social conditioning, of course, but why should that necessarily be so?

(*) such as recalling the correct arrangement of wires and devices for a particular purpose or manipulating the internals of a small device.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;the main reason women are reluctant to get mixed up with technical things is that women aren’t allowed to make mistakes, especially about, or around, machinery.&#8221;<br />
This is true to some extent, but I&#8217;ve observed a tendency amongst some women to encourage men to do &#8220;spatial&#8221; tasks (*) so they don&#8217;t have to, because they find them frustrating. Actively, and despite encouragement to learn how to do the task unaided. You can argue that this is a consequence social conditioning, of course, but why should that necessarily be so?</p>
	<p>(*) such as recalling the correct arrangement of wires and devices for a particular purpose or manipulating the internals of a small device.
</p>
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		<title>by: Cassie</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/08/7019/#comment-507828</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 16:41:09 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/08/7019/#comment-507828</guid>
					<description>I think part of the issue is that members of any minority class, even if it's a majority of the population, are forced into a bizarre sort of useless ambassadorship -- anything an individual minority does well or correctly won't actually further the idea that minorities are people, but anything she or he does badly will reflect badly upon her or his entire minority group. It makes doing anything at all more difficult.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think part of the issue is that members of any minority class, even if it&#8217;s a majority of the population, are forced into a bizarre sort of useless ambassadorship &#8212; anything an individual minority does well or correctly won&#8217;t actually further the idea that minorities are people, but anything she or he does badly will reflect badly upon her or his entire minority group. It makes doing anything at all more difficult.
</p>
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		<title>by: syfr</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/08/7019/#comment-507536</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 14:37:02 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/08/7019/#comment-507536</guid>
					<description>Ali, I've learned to do that too, with a widened eye look of annoyance that the interrupter, and an increase in my volume to talk over him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ali, I&#8217;ve learned to do that too, with a widened eye look of annoyance that the interrupter, and an increase in my volume to talk over him.
</p>
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		<title>by: Ali</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/08/7019/#comment-507531</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 14:05:28 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/08/7019/#comment-507531</guid>
					<description>Another thing I remembered after reading everyone else's comments:

I have a newish coworker who interrupts me constantly when I'm speaking even when he asks me a question. As soon as I noticed this I started to continue saying whatever I was trying to say when he broke in and then continue talking until either he shut up and let me finish, or (what's happened more frequently) he demanded that &lt;i&gt;I&lt;/i&gt; not interrupt &lt;i&gt;him.&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Another thing I remembered after reading everyone else&#8217;s comments:</p>
	<p>I have a newish coworker who interrupts me constantly when I&#8217;m speaking even when he asks me a question. As soon as I noticed this I started to continue saying whatever I was trying to say when he broke in and then continue talking until either he shut up and let me finish, or (what&#8217;s happened more frequently) he demanded that <i>I</i> not interrupt <i>him.</i>
</p>
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		<title>by: Ali</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/08/7019/#comment-507460</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:12:22 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/08/7019/#comment-507460</guid>
					<description>I'll go back and read the rest of the comments in a second but:

Unree: &quot;Most–maybe all–forums of public discussion in this country amplify the voices of men and muffle the voices of women. &quot;

This is one of my biggest pet peeves. I realize that I'm in the engineering field and women are vastly outnumbered by men but I absolutely hate it when I attending or listening to a lecture and when it gets to the Q&amp;amp;A portion, not a single female voice is heard. 

My last semester of college the then new president/CEO of NASA came to speak to my department and when he got around to asking questions I realized that I had a few questions that I wanted answered, and what do you know, I haven't heard any other women yet so I raised my hand and waited... and waited... and waited. People around me started to raise their hands too just to bring his attention to where I was. Finally he got to the point where he could only answer a few more questions so (keeping my hand in the air) I stood up and made him acknowledge me. I asked a pointed question about something he had briefly touched on and while he remained professional in his answer, he got visibily angry and basically (politely) said it was a stupid question to ask. 

That was either the last or 2nd to last question and when the lecture was done I had both professors and other students come up to me and say no, it wasn't a stupid question, it was something that needed to be asked and he should have called on me sooner.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;ll go back and read the rest of the comments in a second but:</p>
	<p>Unree: &#8220;Most–maybe all–forums of public discussion in this country amplify the voices of men and muffle the voices of women. &#8221;</p>
	<p>This is one of my biggest pet peeves. I realize that I&#8217;m in the engineering field and women are vastly outnumbered by men but I absolutely hate it when I attending or listening to a lecture and when it gets to the Q&amp;A portion, not a single female voice is heard. </p>
	<p>My last semester of college the then new president/CEO of NASA came to speak to my department and when he got around to asking questions I realized that I had a few questions that I wanted answered, and what do you know, I haven&#8217;t heard any other women yet so I raised my hand and waited&#8230; and waited&#8230; and waited. People around me started to raise their hands too just to bring his attention to where I was. Finally he got to the point where he could only answer a few more questions so (keeping my hand in the air) I stood up and made him acknowledge me. I asked a pointed question about something he had briefly touched on and while he remained professional in his answer, he got visibily angry and basically (politely) said it was a stupid question to ask. </p>
	<p>That was either the last or 2nd to last question and when the lecture was done I had both professors and other students come up to me and say no, it wasn&#8217;t a stupid question, it was something that needed to be asked and he should have called on me sooner.
</p>
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		<title>by: Carolyn</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/08/7019/#comment-507373</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 01:35:37 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/08/7019/#comment-507373</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;Probably a long shot but do you remember the source for this? I’d love to be able to reference this. . . .&lt;/i&gt;

Just about any basic text about language and gender will cite these studies--I'd start with Jennifer Coates.  IIRC, when a woman's timed participation in a 1:1 conversation with a man approaches 20-25%, she's perceived as 'dominating' and 'talking too much'.  The author I remember analysing this finding wrote something like 'women aren't perceived as being too talkative compared to men, but rather compared silence.'</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Probably a long shot but do you remember the source for this? I’d love to be able to reference this. . . .</i></p>
	<p>Just about any basic text about language and gender will cite these studies&#8211;I&#8217;d start with Jennifer Coates.  IIRC, when a woman&#8217;s timed participation in a 1:1 conversation with a man approaches 20-25%, she&#8217;s perceived as &#8216;dominating&#8217; and &#8216;talking too much&#8217;.  The author I remember analysing this finding wrote something like &#8216;women aren&#8217;t perceived as being too talkative compared to men, but rather compared silence.&#8217;
</p>
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		<title>by: The Pale Scot</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/08/7019/#comment-507290</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 15:53:36 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/08/7019/#comment-507290</guid>
					<description> I think these woman a just smarter, you want my opinion?, you want me to provide content for your business?, simple, Pay Me. Why should i sacrifice my privacy for your bottom line?

There's only one way to answer these annoying (wo)man in the street interviews,

&quot;I am just typical Russian citizen with no particular interest in politics&quot;

Albatross!         ALBatross!          ALBATROSS!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think these woman a just smarter, you want my opinion?, you want me to provide content for your business?, simple, Pay Me. Why should i sacrifice my privacy for your bottom line?</p>
	<p>There&#8217;s only one way to answer these annoying (wo)man in the street interviews,</p>
	<p>&#8220;I am just typical Russian citizen with no particular interest in politics&#8221;</p>
	<p>Albatross!         ALBatross!          ALBATROSS!
</p>
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		<title>by: Lindsay</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/08/7019/#comment-507271</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 14:27:38 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/08/7019/#comment-507271</guid>
					<description>See, when I walk down the street, I do it with my head high and my shoulders back, and I DARE anyone to approach me with harassment. They'd get their asses handed to them. People have. I'd talk to someone who approached with a camera and a microphone, but I'm an actor by degree and I like the spotlight. 

I don't move out of the way of men, the go around me. And, truth be told, I assume men are stupid until proven otherwise. It's the way I've learned to operate, in my job, in the academic field, or in social situations. I'm spoiled though, because I work in a building filled with strong, independent, ballsy women. I believe there are 7 men in my whole department. Not discriminating, just the industry we work in.

I know I'm guilty of reverse sexism. And I also know it sucks. I treat women I encounter with respect and friendliness, regardless of how they look, and I treat men with suspicion and concealed hostility. Not outwardly mean, but I assume any man I meet has the potential to try to hurt me, whether it's verbally or physically, so I use the suspicion to keep myself safe.

*braces for the barrage*</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>See, when I walk down the street, I do it with my head high and my shoulders back, and I DARE anyone to approach me with harassment. They&#8217;d get their asses handed to them. People have. I&#8217;d talk to someone who approached with a camera and a microphone, but I&#8217;m an actor by degree and I like the spotlight. </p>
	<p>I don&#8217;t move out of the way of men, the go around me. And, truth be told, I assume men are stupid until proven otherwise. It&#8217;s the way I&#8217;ve learned to operate, in my job, in the academic field, or in social situations. I&#8217;m spoiled though, because I work in a building filled with strong, independent, ballsy women. I believe there are 7 men in my whole department. Not discriminating, just the industry we work in.</p>
	<p>I know I&#8217;m guilty of reverse sexism. And I also know it sucks. I treat women I encounter with respect and friendliness, regardless of how they look, and I treat men with suspicion and concealed hostility. Not outwardly mean, but I assume any man I meet has the potential to try to hurt me, whether it&#8217;s verbally or physically, so I use the suspicion to keep myself safe.</p>
	<p>*braces for the barrage*
</p>
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		<title>by: bekabot</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/08/7019/#comment-507247</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 12:45:59 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/08/7019/#comment-507247</guid>
					<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;IMO, most men are not, in fact, confident, it’s just that they are socialised to appear confident at all times which sometimes is good but sometimes isn’t. They are also socialised to give things a try, to take a risk, and so are less troubled by the shiny technological things that many women need prodding to use.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It's been said before, lots of times, but it bears repeating...the main reason women are reluctant to get mixed up with technical things is that women aren't allowed to make mistakes, especially about, or around, machinery.  A man who's not an expert can tinker with a technical toy and, if his unfamiliarity with it does it harm, he can get one of his techie buddies to fix it or take it into the shop without having reinforced an impression that men are hopeless around technical stuff.  A woman, OTOH, who bungles or blunders with a mechanical object has typed and classed herself utterly and eternally and beyond every last vestige of hope.  At that moment, she &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; that dumb bit of fluff about whom her entire culture jokes.  A man who's trying to fix the radiator and who breaks the radiator instead has not committed an inadmissible &lt;em&gt;faux pas&lt;/em&gt;, but a woman who does the same thing is guilty of a major social lapse.  Not only that, she's confirmed all the claims of her enemies.  And not only that, the radiator's still broken.  It makes sense for her to silently resolve that next time she'll let her husband or her boyfriend try to fix the damned thing, because even if he blows the house up at least she won't end up carrying the blame. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<blockquote><p>IMO, most men are not, in fact, confident, it’s just that they are socialised to appear confident at all times which sometimes is good but sometimes isn’t. They are also socialised to give things a try, to take a risk, and so are less troubled by the shiny technological things that many women need prodding to use.</p></blockquote>
	<p>It&#8217;s been said before, lots of times, but it bears repeating&#8230;the main reason women are reluctant to get mixed up with technical things is that women aren&#8217;t allowed to make mistakes, especially about, or around, machinery.  A man who&#8217;s not an expert can tinker with a technical toy and, if his unfamiliarity with it does it harm, he can get one of his techie buddies to fix it or take it into the shop without having reinforced an impression that men are hopeless around technical stuff.  A woman, OTOH, who bungles or blunders with a mechanical object has typed and classed herself utterly and eternally and beyond every last vestige of hope.  At that moment, she <em>is</em> that dumb bit of fluff about whom her entire culture jokes.  A man who&#8217;s trying to fix the radiator and who breaks the radiator instead has not committed an inadmissible <em>faux pas</em>, but a woman who does the same thing is guilty of a major social lapse.  Not only that, she&#8217;s confirmed all the claims of her enemies.  And not only that, the radiator&#8217;s still broken.  It makes sense for her to silently resolve that next time she&#8217;ll let her husband or her boyfriend try to fix the damned thing, because even if he blows the house up at least she won&#8217;t end up carrying the blame.
</p>
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		<title>by: Doctor Science, Demiurge of No-Knead Bread</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/08/7019/#comment-507245</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 12:43:43 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/04/08/7019/#comment-507245</guid>
					<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;heard MIT and Carnegie Mellon male graduates complain about “lowered admission standards” for female applicants.&lt;/blockquote&gt;Just because they complain doesn't mean it's true.

It's my understanding that when MIT admissions discussed ways to get more women admitted, the faculty refused to consider lowering standards for female applicants. What they did was *raise* the standards on the verbal/written part of the SAT, so that those scores count as much as the math. Result: the sex ratio among MIT students is now about 50:50.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<blockquote><p>heard MIT and Carnegie Mellon male graduates complain about “lowered admission standards” for female applicants.</blockquote>
Just because they complain doesn&#8217;t mean it&#8217;s true.</p>
	<p>It&#8217;s my understanding that when MIT admissions discussed ways to get more women admitted, the faculty refused to consider lowering standards for female applicants. What they did was *raise* the standards on the verbal/written part of the SAT, so that those scores count as much as the math. Result: the sex ratio among MIT students is now about 50:50.
</p>
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