This is interesting. The show “Mob Logic” has found a pattern in their “man on the street” interviews—women, far far far more often than men, are afraid to express an opinion, defer to male companions, or don’t even really have a chance to defer since they get stepped on.
So, what’s up with that? Part of it, I think, is that men and women and women realize that the starting assumption when they speak is totally different. Men are extended the benefit of the doubt—they’re assumed smart until they prove otherwise. Women all too often have the opposite assumption, that we’re dumb until we prove otherwise. A 30 second street interview is not enough time to prove that you’re smart, and so women choose to shut up, which ironically is a smart thing to do, if you’re at all worried about what people think of you. (And who isn’t?) One of my lifelong struggles is that I constantly forget that women are judged by a much more stringent standard than men when we open our mouths and express an opinion, and thus I’m always feeling like, oh shit, I said something stupid, something that would probably go without notice if I was a man, but now is out there confirming all sorts of beliefs about women’s inherent bimbatude.
Or maybe it’s just that women are socialized to believe no one gives a shit what we think. Thoughts? I’m wondering if the internet is really becoming a place for women to express ourselves because it gives us time to consider our thoughts, and therefore minimizes the fear of appearing to be bimbos.
The comments at Mob Logic are odious—a bunch of men assuming straightaway that the women might not have a good reason for avoiding the camera, but we just need a good-looking guy to ask/are too catty to talk to a good-looking woman. See? Women know that the default assumption is that we’re dumb bunnies, as is demonstrated by the guys running straight for that explanation.
86 Responses to “Fear of a bimbo planet”
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I’d say it’s the interrelated fears of being wrong and having to argue to come to a resolution.
Being wrong is one thing, and we all get to participate in that pretty equally, but in my mind at least, having to argue is where the gender difference comes in.
That’s where the pointed jabs at emotionality tend to come in (one of those more stringent standards Amanda referenced), so the woman who’s put herself out there has to argue for her point and against her innate “womanness,” however it’s been defined by the challenger, at the same time. And that gets exhausting enough to learn to clam up in on-the-spot situations, and save up an argument for more amenable environments.
That’s been my experience, anyway.
The same silencing issue applies to women in academia. Several studies have found that women professors publish a bit less than men, but the work they do publish is of slightly better quality. (Of course, trying to evaluate the quality of work published under a female byline is difficult, given the documented bias against female bylines.)
Most–maybe all–forums of public discussion in this country amplify the voices of men and muffle the voices of women. We have no idea what our public dialogues would contain if they weren’t blighted. I hope Amanda’s right that the Internet is a force for correction. So far, I don’t see it. Check out the comments section of any site or blog that doesn’t label itself as feminist.
I think grimsaburger and I are on the same wave length. For me at least…I’ve come to realize that I react to the world differently than men do (duh). And that difference isn’t generally appreciated. Discussions are often framed along patriarchal lines (more duh). So expressing a different perspective usually gets you lumped into the “irrational” woman category.
If you want to actually discuss the topic, your perspective (in so far as it differs from the standard patriarchal mode of reasoning) has to be explained…using small words and careful logic. And even if you do explain it perfectly…about 80% of the time the person wasn’t paying a bit of attention because they’ve already categorized you as irrational. So its easier to be silent. To allow the patriarchy to frame the discussion unless its (as my grandmother used to say) “a hill you’re willing to die on.”
This gels perfectly with what we know about how we semiconsciously socialize children of different sexes to behave pretty much from the moment they’re born. Men are socialized to be assertive which I think you kind of have to be to shoot your mouth off on camera about some controversial issue, and women to be, or at least to act, dependent (maybe especially in the context of a romantic relationship?), thus the deference. So, really any other result would have been surprising.
True, unree. And there you really see why women shut up—you say anything that can be pounced on, and some men will bully the hell out of you. If you publish it under a gender neutral name, not so much, I’ve noticed. I’ve written comments under a female name and under a gender neutral name in the past, and the difference is astounding.
The sad thing is that it’s a clear cut case of a few bad apples. Most men are not invested in jumping down someone’s throat for daring to have both a vagina and an opinion. But the ones who are are really invested and can make a space really impossible to communicate in, since they go after everything you say.
One thing that helps me is to point out that men who have a problem with opinionated women are de facto morons. They really hate it when you point that out, but then usually come so unbent that everyone else starts to tune them out.
It’s mid town daytime, … winter.
no friggin way anybody is going to talk to her. Is not like average new yorker don’t have a sense how the media function these days. play dumb and move on…
the girls get it right.
My favorite parallel to this is the increase in female musicians in elite orchestras when they audition behind a screen (ie, the gender of the performer isn’t known to the reviewers).
My experience is generally limited to academia, and while it’s been largely positive at my present situation, the subtle cues are always still there. I wonder if my experience would be so positive if I put myself out more often, more vocally?
The most argumentative thing I’ve done in a while is this, and while I don’t have a large enough readership to attract much of any kind of attention, it turned up a pretty good case in point in the comments.
I have no hesitation in telling people what I think, but I also avoid interacting with strangers who approach me in public. I wear headphones when walking around the city and read a book on public transport (while wearing headphone) to dissuade people from talking to me, and politely say “no, thank you” or something similar when people approach me.
Why?
Because I get so much shit from men ALL THE TIME when I don’t. Men tell me to smile. Men tell me how pretty I am. Men tell me what they want to do to me sexually.
Not talking to people who approach me in public is a protective measure. So, in that scenario, I would be one of the women who says “no, thank you” and walks away (even though the interviewer is also a woman) because from my experience, nothing good has ever come to me from interacting with a stranger who approaches me in public - but many bad things have.
This is a bit of a tangent from the real issue of women voicing their opinions, but it could be another reason/part of the reason why some of the women kept walking and refused to be interviewed.
I had pointed this out in Feministing, but when I was still living in the midwest, I had no problems being interviewed on camera. It wasn’t until I went to college in New York City (where this appears to be filmed) that I learned to shy away from anyone approaching you on the street. For anything. (I remember watching something where people were handing out free nickels on a street corner in NY and had a hard time getting any takers).
When you’re a woman walking alone in NYC, you are being targeted, and as a woman living in NYC, you know this. Homeless people are more aggressive because you’re “softer.” You will deal with street harrassment and grabbing. Your purse is easier to grab than the wallet in the jacket pocket of the man in front of you. You’re expected to move out of the way if you’re in the path of an oncoming man, not the other way around. Solutions not appearing, the way you deal is you just get as quickly from Point A to Point B as you can and do NOT stop to talk to anyone.
I see that dynamic with myself and my husband. I tend to be shy, and I HATE arguing, even if I know I’m right. A lot of times I’ll keep my opinion to myself because I don’t want to be in a position where I have to defend what I said. In these cases, I will often let my husband answer because he is smart and articulate, and nobody questions that. If I do state my opinion and subsequently need to defend it, or just elaborate, I have a fear the listeners think I’m stupid.
I’m completely different at home, though because I feel comfortable and “safe”. I know my husband respects my opinion and thinks I’m an intelligent person.
It’s hard to want to put yourself out there when you know that there’s a sizable segment of the population that would love to tear you down, probably by calling you ugly/fat and making rape threats. I think most women know, even if not consciously, that if they irk some dudes with what they say that the fallout just isn’t worth it. The fallout for men is never a concern, because the consequences are never that bad.
Olivia, I too see this with my husband. Both of us our loudmouths and will generally talk over most people (yes, we can be assholes). However, he has the gender thing going for him, so I’m more likely to defer than he is, and often will unfortunately let him talk over me. I’m trying to stop that though, but it’s hard.
Interestingly, maybe due to my gender or maybe my abusive parents, but I’ve been conditioned to always believe I’m wrong, no matter what. Or even if I’m not wrong, that I could be. My husband is constantly convinced he’s right, even when he’s terribly wrong. Some of our worst fights has been me correcting him…
A related pattern that I’ve been observing for years, ever since junior high science classes with labs, through high school science classes with labs, then military training, then college lab classes, then on the job training (in large scale manufacturing). I’m so reminded of it because I just started Six Sigma training last week. The instructor sets up a demo, then tells the class to have it at. The guys rush it. The girls hang back. Any piece of equipment, especially mechanical or electrical, the guys rush it. The girls hang back. Girls find themselves recording data or reading instructions aloud. Then the instructor says, who wants to present? Guy get up and start talking. Girls have to be forced to take the stand.
Based on my observations, it’s a combination of the following factors, in different proportions depending upon the specific group:
1. Guys could care less who is standing in their way regardless of gender, they want to prove they’re the best/smartest of the bunch and/or want to play with the cool shiny equipment.
2. If they can’t play alone, guys choose other guys to help them play with cool shiny equipment as their brains (usually subconsciously, sometimes consciously) delete any girl present as somebody who would be of any use operating anything mechanical or electrical.
3. Girls hang back deliberately, afraid of putting themselves forward, since if they make a mistake, they’ll look like a dumb girl, whereas if a guy makes the same mistake, he’ll just look overeager. (This is also the reason they don’t want to give presentations on results, as well as the fact that it appears to make them look like they want to lead, which in a girl means she’s bossy and controlling, whereas in a guy, wanting to lead makes him look brave and ambitious.)
4. Girls are intimidated by cool shiny equipment, having long ago internalized the concept that girls are of much less use than guys as somebody who’d be of any use when it comes to mechanical/electrical systems and generally have genuinely set themselves up for a greater failure to success ratio since they’ve been avoiding said equipment for that reason for decades already. Whereas the guys have not.
I like your breakdown, Lisa, though surely you don’t think this always breaks down strictly along gender lines.
Ashley, I understand what you are saying. Even in cases where I know 100% I am right, there are times when an overbearing person, usually male, can make me doubt myself. I have always thought this was just a personality quirk of mine, not necessarily tied to gender. But now I wonder….
“You’re expected to move out of the way if you’re in the path of an oncoming man, not the other way around.”
I work in Chicago, and take public transit. I cannot even begin to describe the number of times I’ve had men literally walk right into me because they can’t seem to register that I’m not going to jump out of the way.
Also, I don’t want my name and face on tv in some dumb interview; I have enough crazy exes that it wouldn’t be wise.
Maybe it is because the interviewer is an attractive young woman. Men will jump through hoops for them, women not so much.
The women didn’t look bullied, they just looked like they had better things to do than to stop and talk politics.
In addition to the stuff about argumentation and willingness to offer opinions, there’s quite possibly (especially in any urban center) the physical risk for a woman who allows her face to show up in a video taken by someone she hasn’t vetted. I’d also have that in the back of my mind on a city street (while simultaneously taking a look around for the confederate who was going to take my wallet while the cameraperson diverted my attention).
Yes.
I used to publish online under a gender-neutral (in fact, male-default-assumption) name, and had few problems.
Now that I identify as female, all bets are off. I’ve changed nothing in my writing style or degree of opinion-making, but the site I write for now–which touts itself as more fem-positive than the last and has a much more educated crowd–is like a whole other animal.
And IME, commenters who identify as women are as “shup up, uppity smart-ass bitch” as commenters who identify as men. Male readers are literally only half the problem. Publishing While Female means you have to swim upstream for respect from all comers–before, it was automatically granted to me.
When it comes to my academic publications (under real name), I opted for the “initials’ game–I know it’s craven. That’s partly gender-shame, and partly the fact that my first name doesn’t exactly inspire gravitas (I have a male colleague named Arby who went the same route).
I think I remember hearing of a study a while ago that explained the reason that men win on the game show Jeopardy! more often is because men are more likely to shout out an an answer even if they are not sure if it is right while women are more likely to mull it over.
The people who did the study suggested that women would be more successful if the show quizzed people on identifying people’s emotions based on their faces, which I’m pretty sure would make it the worse game show ever.
I think that’s similar to what is happening with the on-the-street interviews.
Olivia and Ashley, you’ve both pretty much summed up my marriage.
I tend to not want to put myself out there, because I don’t like to look a fool to others (particularly others whose opinions I value–either professionally or personally). Not always, but generally, I let the husband argue in public because people tend to listen to him more while they just assume I’m some kind of idiot. But at home I’m very argumentative and will argue my position if I think I’m right because I feel that’s a safe space. Also, I’ve noticed that I’m much more likely to admit that I’m wrong than the husband is. He has a way of arguing that makes it seem like he’s always absolutely correct, even when he is horribly wrong and I can prove it. It’s like he just is incapable of admitting a mistake unless there is irrefutable evidence of said mistake. It’s infuriating.
For me, though, this tendency to not want to argue/defend a position in public also extends to online. I tend to not want to comment on a blog, especially on a relatively serious topic, unless it is a topic I’m very familiar with and/or I’m absolutely sure I’m right and can back it up. And even then, I usually convince myself that my opinion isn’t relevant or important.
Does anything ever break perfectly along gender lines, other than issues solely revolving around the presence or absence of gender-specific reproductive organs?
Rick,
I like your breakdown, Lisa, though surely you don’t think this always breaks down strictly along gender lines.
You do realize this particular post is about gender, right?
For serious though, Ms. Moblogic stopped me on the street near my school the other day to ask me if I thought to world was going to get sucked into a black hole, which, no, actually, I don’t, and the whole thing was pretty hostile from the start - she definitely blocked my path and was like WHAT, YOU KNOW SCIENCE NOW, TOO?
Maybe women just don’t like having to deal with this sort of stupidaggi when they’re trying to get from one place to another. And men aren’t as guarded bout their personal space?
ShelbyWoo,
Sure I do. And it’s spot-on. It’s just that I’ve also spent a lot of life being told that no one is interested in my opinions.
Prior to my child’s birth, my wife and I had resolved that if our baby was a girl, we would make every effort to make sure she was aware of the nature of enforced gender roles, and to give her whatever support was necessary to empower her to pursue her goals.
Since it turned out that we’re raising a son, I find myself in a quandary. I certainly want him to be assertive in his pursuits, and confident enough in himself to try new things and make mistakes with awareness–but not fear–of failure.
But is our culture set up so that his assertiveness will discourage his female classmates? Not that I want him to be a pushy asshole, but as mentioned earlier, sometimes you have to step up front to get the most out of life. Yet I don’t want to think that his learning experiences will be at the expense of someone else’s.
a couple quarters ago, i was in a class on Russian politics (especially around the so-called democratization). i was, quite literally, the ONLY girl.
and that whole non-verbal que thing? textbook, in this class. for the first month. i finally got fed up, when for the third time in the same discussion the professor undercut me (i would say something, Very Argumenative Guy would disagree, i would open my mouth to defend my stance and before i could say anything, Prof. would say somthing like “lets move on before we have an argument).
so, i tell him that he is doing this. first, he seems disbelieving that i would complain. apparently because he thought he was protecting me from arguments. so i told him no, he wasn’t protecting me, he was making it look like he agreed with every guy who DISagreed with me, by not letting me even defend my positions.
funny, after that, the class got a large amount better. the prof. quite undermining me, and the guy who always disagreed with me started getting argued with (my favorite. him saying “it’s military!” and me reply “yes, it is. and the tactics that were required” and freaking him out. and proving that i know waaaaay more military history and military science… what can i say? yes, i have an ego too. and it felt good to smack him down in front of everyone with professorial neutrality)
I tend to be gender opposite: I talk a lot in classes, argue with anyone and everyone, will call total strangers on making rape jokes, and give interviews at any protest. In fact, I think I do this too much; and need to work on not verbally stepping on people. The only thing is, I have no idea where the “mean” is: the appropriate level for me to speak as a human. I know where it is as a woman (almost never) and I know where it is for a guy (almost never shutting up) but, I have no idea where the gender nuetral part is.
quit. he QUIT undermining me…
oh, for an edit
“4. Girls are intimidated by cool shiny equipment, having long ago internalized the concept that girls are of much less use than guys as somebody who’d be of any use when it comes to mechanical/electrical systems and generally have genuinely set themselves up for a greater failure to success ratio since they’ve been avoiding said equipment for that reason for decades already. Whereas the guys have not.”
Lisa, I can’t tell you how dead on you are about that. I work in an automotive maintainence center. I can’t tell you how many scared women, even educated ones that should know better, come in that can’t tell you the first thing about their car. I do my best to educate them, remind that there are people who will take advantage of them. I give them a basic run down of stuff they should be able to recite off the top of their head. I remind them of the things that they can do easily themselves without paying for the service. I grew up, fortunately, with a positive male role model who made sure I knew I was equal to the boys. He even thought I was better than the boys and is still hounding me to get the training to be a mechanic instead of just doing what I do now. I take it for granted how many of us didn’t have that growing up and just how many have bought in the whole “the men are talking, sweetie” mentality. It’s disgusting.
Also, I’m sure you and others have experienced the phenomena where a guy will do the exact opposite of what he needs to do just to keep from being proven wrong by a woman. Well, it really burns them when I tell them I can’t sell them a part that isn’t compatible with the vehicle for which they had me find the part. Fortunately, my two large burly supervisors are usually eager to remind people that Spook runs shit.
Gimme, I don’t think that follows. Bias tests tend to show that women tend to think more of women than men do, so any random woman on the street is more, not less likely to see a young woman with a microphone and think she is worth talking politics to. As for the “everything can be explained through sex” nonsense that reduces all male interaction with women to sexual, that makes no sense. Men are not so stupid as to think that a female reporter is going to fuck you.
Men are not so stupid as to think that a female reporter is going to fuck you.
Most of us, anyway. I do know a few…
Mighty Ponygirl-
“When you’re a woman walking alone in NYC, you are being targeted, and as a woman living in NYC, you know this. Homeless people are more aggressive because you’re “softer.” …Solutions not appearing, the way you deal is you just get as quickly from Point A to Point B as you can and do NOT stop to talk to anyone.”
I completely agree and deal with this sort of thing everyday. I go to the gym after work and have to wait at my busstop which usually has homeless people prowling around it no matter when I get there.
I’m the easier mark and open myself up for abuse for telling them “No” in any form. Never mind that I work overtime to be able to afford even the basics in this town or actually have everything I own paid for in cash- no I’m the b**ch/c**t/wh**e for daring to have a cell phone (or whatever else I have on me at the time) and have been threatened to have things forcibly taken away from me, “slapped silly” etc. simply because I wouldn’t give them (never have and never will) 25 cents.
Men tell them the same thing and they keep on walking.
This has happened more times than I can count.
ElleDee-
“It’s hard to want to put yourself out there when you know that there’s a sizable segment of the population that would love to tear you down, probably by calling you ugly/fat and making rape threats. I think most women know, even if not consciously, that if they irk some dudes with what they say that the fallout just isn’t worth it. The fallout for men is never a concern, because the consequences are never that bad.”
Exactly. The best thing to do and how most women I know cope with having to move from one place to another on the street is simply to shut off and concentrate on getting to work/ back home/ wherever we need to be. We don’t talk to people period since most of the time it’s going to be a bad interaction as it’s assumed that since we’re out on the street we must be on he prowl for a man or hookers or both.
I have a 12-year-old sister, and I see this in her all the time, now. She insists that she’s “the dumbest” kid in her class, all evidence to the contrary. It’s sooo frustrating, because I used to be like that, and I saw where it got me - a hole that I’m still digging myself out of.
More recently, my job requires that I present myself daily as knowledgeable but fallible, and it’s given me the confidence to say “I don’t know for sure, but here’s my educated hypothesis.” When public speaking is required, I’m the first person to jump up and go for it. It has never occurred to me in those situations whether I’m pissing off any men, but now that I think about it, the vast majority of people who have come to me after a talk to ask more questions or to tell me what a “natural” I am have been women. Huh.
That’s partly gender-shame, and partly the fact that my first name doesn’t exactly inspire gravitas (I have a male colleague named Arby who went the same route).
This reminds me of when my mom used to work as a political assistant for our MPP (local representative to the provincial legislature). Her go-to person for legal advice was a brilliant, kick-ass feminist lawyer. Named Bunny.
The idea that women are more likely to be perceived as “bimbos” if they say something stupid I think is a valid one. I’m not proud of this, but as a young engineering student, I remember getting really angry at fellow female students who asked “dumb” questions, because there were just so few of us, and I was afraid of male students and professors thinking all female engineers were dumb. Not to mention the sheer horror of asking a question I knew was obvious after asking it. I’m ashamed now that I thought that way — there were “dumb” questions asked by the guys too, and the women in the classes had the same right to clear up their misunderstandings as anyone else. The perceived “bimboness” just never seemed to stick to the guys, though. It sucks to look back and realize that I was part of the problem.
I’m sure this has been posted before on Pandagon, but I was reminded of it by this post.
http://xkcd.com/385/
One thing that helps me is to point out that men who have a problem with opinionated women are de facto morons.
True. They’re the ones most likely to assume, correctly, that most women are too smart to interact with them without being badgered and harassed.
To add to what you’ve said, Amanda…
Women are expected to be wrong, and so whenever we dare to speak, we have to double and triple check every word. We know that everyone is just waiting to call out the flaws in our arguments so they can feel superior to us. And by everyone I mean both men and women.
True, unree. And there you really see why women shut up—you say anything that can be pounced on, and some men will bully the hell out of you. If you publish it under a gender neutral name, not so much, I’ve noticed. I’ve written comments under a female name and under a gender neutral name in the past, and the difference is astounding.
What had me in stitches in some of the Usenet arguments of yore was where people were uncertain of my gender, I refused to give it (since it was not germane to the topic) and it drove them completely batshit. It’s not just that many idiots treat women and men differently in arguments (something I’d like to eliminate from my own behaviour in my quest to be an equal opportunity asshole), but that a significant number of them rely on being able to categorise and dismiss female voices.
A few random observations:
The aggressive men that Amanda calls “a few bad apples” are aggressive to other men as well. The real difference is that it is easier for them to be aggressive to women than to men. Men are usually physically bigger and stronger than women. Social structures reinforce male dominance and female submission. Finally, other men learn this game from a very young age, while women generally do not. In other words, these guys are assholes across the board, it’s just easier for them to be assholes to women than to men.
What I find particularly troubling and saddening is how men are socialized to be assertive and take risks (both positive and healthy attributes in moderation) while at best, women are not socialized to do these things, and at worst, women are discouraged from doing these things. What this means is that far too often women do better work, but men get more of the rewards. Furthermore, many women are socialized to please everyone, which is incompatible with what is in many ways a very competitive world.
I also find it disappointing how gender stereotypes are so strongly reinforced despite the fact that they harm both genders. Women are intimidated by cool shiny things, even though they are perfectly capable of dealing with them. (Conversely, there are men who are intimidated by housekeeping, which is just as bad.)
My point is that so many of the underlying issues in gender equality go back to socialization. Parents should teach their children skills and behaviors that are important for everyone in the 21st century.
Not that I want him to be a pushy asshole, but as mentioned earlier, sometimes you have to step up front to get the most out of life. Yet I don’t want to think that his learning experiences will be at the expense of someone else’s.
I don’t have a son, and likely never will, but if I did, I might encourage him to be one of those guys who makes a point of taking his female classmates’ opinions seriously. I would want him to be aware of his own privilege, without feeling guilty or personally responsible for it, but rather inspired to do something good in response to it.
There is a reason it’s called a “gentleman’s C” and not a “ladies C”
It is far more socially acceptable for a man to ask a dumb question than a woman. There is a lot more pressure on women to be perfect in all areas of life, including the classroom, than men.
In additional to sexism, another reason for this intimidation is the common American stereotype of the engineering/science/math “nerd” being a socially awkward misfit or anti-social period….further reducing the girls’/womens’ desire to pursue those fields.
snark/* After all, America cannot afford to have its girls/women become anti-social or social misfits. */snark
A byproduct of the anti-intellectual tendencies of American culture where being intellectual is often derided. In many other nations such as Taiwan and China, being the smartest kid in the class….especially in math, engineering, and science would make you a popular kid worthy of accolades from fellow classmates, teachers, and society. In this society,,,,being the smartest…especially in math, engineering, and science would not only result in one being socially ostracized by the “popular kids” in most American high schools (public or private), but also a target of harassment and physical violence.
I think this might be a place where internalized misogyny enters into consideration. Women who are not young beautiful and skinny are socialized and taught to view women who are as threats. Women who are middle-aged, intellectual, overweight, ordinary-looking, and who don’t spend hours fussing endlessly over their appearances in front of the mirror have been taught by experience that when confronted by a young, beautiful, skinny woman with a TV-perfect appearance, the younger woman is usually intent on making the older woman appear irrelevant (which is exactly what this reporter has done). Instead of mocking them about being “unfuckable”, the reporter marginalizes the interview subjects by feigning wide-eyed innocence and pretending to be oblivious to decades of social conditioning that tell plain women to get out of the way of younger, hotter women, lest the plain ones have their men, jobs, and seats on public transport taken away by those prettier and more deserving.
The “Divide and Conquer” aspect of the patriarchy cannot be underemphasized, and that’s exactly what I see happening in this film.
If these trends continue, they will be eating our lunch and we will be flipping their burgers.
Mezosub:
I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think there is an insidious type of mysogyny that targets beautiful, or maybe just young, women. I live in a college town and I caught myself rolling my eyes at the young college students. It was like: the men are funny with their stupid beer pong and sheer boneheadedness, but the girls are annoying chippies. Hard to describe, but I think it’s a general contempt everyone has for young women and to my shock I was feeling it too. It’s like- why WAS Susan too evil to return to Narnia at the end of The Last Battle?
Watch Disney and Nickolodeon and tell me if you don’t notice that teenage girls on those shows are almost always mean, stupid, shallow. Everyone’s always waiting for them to screw up. The beautiful young woman will say or do something stupid any second now, just wait. Even on feminist blogs women posters are always claiming to be tomboys- is it any wonder women are self-censoring, since they know this hostility is so pervasive?
I think the chinese will import argentinian beef instead.
This is so true that I don’t see how it can be overemphasized. But I think there are a couple of reasons why the bad-apple idiosyncrasies those few display tend to get exported outward and to color the behavior of their whole sex.
1) The guys who are invested in jumping down women’s throats for daring to possess both vaginas and opinions intimidate women. They also intimidate men. When they jump down the throats of women they provide men who aren’t all that interested in jumping down the throats of women with a quick-&-dirty thumbnail sketch of the miseries that await them the minute they so much as think about ignoring the obligations attendant on gender loyalty.
“See what’s happening to this chick? Well, don’t put yourself in her position,” is the unspoken message. “Don’t be that much of a fool.”
2) Men who are invested in jumping down women’s throats for daring to possess both vaginas and opinions are automatically awarded extra bonus masculinity points by other men. Don’t ask me why. I’ve never understood it. But that’s what happens. No woman wants to be regarded as an unsexed harpy and no man wants a reputation as a Milquetoast, all of which is understandable. There seems to be a superstition abroad to the effect that, if you are male, you’re duty-bound to develop either into a milksop or into a jerk, and perhaps it’s not surprising that the men who buy into this superstition will often root for jerks, even when they don’t quite see their way clear to turning into jerks themselves.
I look forward to a time when this superstition has been exploded, but it’s my personal impression that that time is a long way off.
I just can’t believe she cut that guy off before he finished explaining about how George Bush is like Darth Vader describing a basket case of puppies. I was really looking forward to seeing how that was gonna turn out.
I see this sort of deferment all the damn time, especially by older women who have spent their lives being told that they are not only stupid/silly but also that they come last. Geh, stupid patriarchy.
My wife has had some interactions with men that are just incredible.
She had an older man actually throw a temper tantrum because she pointed out what everyone else knew: He was full of shit.
She has been threatened once or twice. She generally doesn’t like to give opinions on random issues because she is very pragmatic and figures that if she can’t change it then why waste her breath and time to give an opinion when there are so many other more pressing issues that she can have an effect on that she will comment on.
She is focused. Something I wish I possessed to her degree. She is pretty much business. She did say once that everyone probably already guesses where she stands on an issue so why should she blow their fantasy.
Where me, Moi… Hell, you ask and I’ll prattle on, and on, and on… (But isn’t that obvious by now?)
I tried to get her to blog but she won’t. In her profession, she has a lot of powerful opinions and also stories that I think should be told. She doesn’t want it to distract her from her career and her speaking. Makes sense to me. I thinks that women are generally more pragmatic and also generally more aware of where their opinion can get them. Making your opinion known publicly makes you open to being labeled and once labeled you are open to being ‘cast’ into, or out of, a group or groups.
I should probably hold my opinions closer. Certain ones I do because they really rock people…
I think that he did finish. He realized that he sounded loony and hit the fool button and the end of his ‘thing’ was ‘he throws them away’.
Was he drunk, or republican…
We all know that Bush would put huge firecrackers in their mouths and light them and then pass out from the glee and shear giddy coolness of blowing them up. Once you start with frogs you just can’t quit exacting your omnipotence on other ‘lesser’ creatures… (You know, blacks, the poor, our military, Scotty dogs, librarians…)
Lisa, I can’t tell you how dead on you are about that. I work in an automotive maintainence center. I can’t tell you how many scared women, even educated ones that should know better, come in that can’t tell you the first thing about their car.
Once upon a time, my car broke down. My then-boyfriend came to help fix it (he was a giant car nerd), and prattled on about what he thought was wrong with it, how to fix it, blah blah. When it became clear that it was actually something else wrong, something he couldn’t fix, he told me what it was, and stuff.
So, I get it towed to a mechanic, and tell the dude helping me what was wrong with my car (the crankshaft pulley’s axel had broken somehow, so it got tossed out of alignment and broke my accessories belt). And he blinks at me and says, “What, are you a mechanic or something?” I laugh and say no, I just happen to know what’s wrong, and he says, “We’re hiring you know. Just sayin’.”
It was weird.
The end.
I have found more women in the computer field which is encouraging…
“I have found more women in the computer field which is encouraging…”
That is encouraging. I know a few, hope to see many more.
Now if we could just get people over 40 to be considered valuable by IT management…
Despite growing up in 1950’s Taiwan, my mother has taken to computers like nobody’s business. In certain areas such as office applications, she’s far ahead of people in my age group (Under 30).
On the other hand….the mere fact my mother is so strong with computers is probably one big reason…other than sheer fear why my father won’t touch a computer…much less use one.
As for over 40 people being considered valuable…..a bigger part of that age discrimination is corporations/IT departments being too cheap to pay for people with experience and qualifications. The too common tendency is to equate 40+ year old experienced IT workers with fresh college grads in their 20s as the same except in matters of cost and “capacity to learn new technologies”……though it is really all about them being cheap….and being too narrow-minded to realize that there are quick-studies among the middle-aged and elderly as well as technological/general intellectual obtuseness among those in their 20’s.
Wanted to comment on a few posts in the beginning of the thread. moving around in crowds or on public transportation is indeed a tricky exercise. I must say though that, as a male at around 6′5 280 and having a generally surly attitude when in public, the only people who don’t move out of my way are older women and women/men with small children, everyone else just moves 99% of the time, I find it fascinating. I’ve sat at times and watched that, smaller males generally move for larger ones, makes me wonder if there is something innate going on with it.
as far as this thing goes, I’d love to see them put some metrics behind it and write up a little something. If it were me I don’t mind people walking up to me whether I’m in NYC, London, or Berlin but I wouldnt talk to them as I’d figure its a late show jaywalkers set up.
oh, wanted to add. Another reason I wouldn’t talk to them is because I have a moderate stutter. If you ever want to find yet another group of socially maligned people look no further.
For those who are trying to raise boys, or have trouble with their own assertiveness level being high– I’m one of the gender-opposite women and I’ve found the best way to interact with others is to give my opinion, and then say: “Of course, that’s my opinion, but I would like to hear yours. Different backgrounds, different ideas.” Or something else that doesn’t invalidate me but opens the floor to discussion.
Hey, I’m doing what I can, but I’m only one (42 yo) woman.
Mezo, that is a factor, but I don’t know if it outweighs the social pressure on men to treat women as disposable. My personal experience tells me that women still take other women a lot more seriously than men do on average, even with that factor in play. I certainly don’t think someone younger and hotter than me is a dimwit, and I’ve had older women who I’ve younger and hotter than take me quite seriously. I wouldn’t pick on the host. I’ve been the upstart with the small waist and clear skin and have gotten very little hostility from older women compared to older men of their peer group.
Mrs. F drove to work last week and noticed that the car was sounding funny. So she gets to work, pops the hood, checks the oil, adds some, then being the ADD person that she is proceeds to tighten the battery cables, add brake fluid, take off the distributor cap and check the plugs, etc. All pretty typical stuff when you own a car that still runs well after 200k miles.
One of her male coworkers, who is a total blowhard, shows up about halfway through this and is absolutely agog. “Do you know what you’re doing?” “You know you have to look at the dipstick to make sure there’s oil in the car.” “Do you know what a dipstick is?” Mrs. F is a third-degree black belt and could kill this idiot with her bare hands. Or the dipstick.
My university is about 70% female and it lowers its admissions standards for men in order to keep a critical mass of males. My subject is notoriously difficult, so beyond the first year my courses are 85-90% women, nearly all of them very bright and articulate and most of them pretty assertive. Yet in every class there is always at least one guy, usually two, who despite being at the bottom rung grade-wise, does not fail to shout out a usually wrong answer whenever I ask people to raise their hands to answer a question. Drives. Me. Crazy. It’s made me develop this kind of reverse sexism, where I just assume that the boys are stupid until proved otherwise and that the women are smart until proved otherwise. This may be a general function of a liberal arts university environment.
I’m a big, mean-looking, assertive and opinionated man and I would never talk to some idiot from a Web TV show who poked a microphone in my face. Perhaps part of the gender disparity we’re seeing here is that most of the women are too smart to want to give their opinion to the reporter.
felagund,
Wow, shocking to hear the state of the American male college student is so shitty, guess that makes it ok to adopt that reverse sexism huh? Women as a group are too smart and men as a group are dumb enough? Great.
That blowhard was quite an idiot but why bring up the killing him with her bare hands? Why does this come up so often as a joke or even a threat? The whole I’ll kick your ass thing, I only seem to get that from women, even friends, or actually hit by women. I don’t understand completely why that happens, I feel its because they are assertive and empowered but it just doesnt make sense to me that being those things leads to slapping guys, making jokes or again even threats about physical violence and so on, just something Ive seen grow at a phenomenal rate in the last 5-10 years.
“I don’t understand completely why that happens, I feel its because they are assertive and empowered but it just doesnt make sense to me that being those things leads to slapping guys, making jokes or again even threats about physical violence and so on, just something Ive seen grow at a phenomenal rate in the last 5-10 years.”
jamespi, are you for real?…
off topic - do you find that younger people are more likely to walk 3 or 4 abreast and expect you to move out of the way than older ones?
As a normal to smaller sized woman, I will make my body bigger and move toward men (and women) who refuse to give way (reasonably) on a sidewalk. It burns me to see them assume I’m just going to melt away and let them own the road. Grrr.
On topic: I also think women are less likely to want to be on camera for a number of reasons. We are evaluated on appearance, so we avoid lettting the camera “look” at us. Also all of the safety issues posted above.
yeah, I only get physically threatened by women. they are so intimidating.
Women as a group are too smart and men as a group are dumb enough? Great.
At my university, as I said, this is statistically the case. In the larger world? Probably not.
why bring up the killing him with her bare hands?
because men who act like that toward women are likelier to use violence against them as well. Live by the dipstick…
Re #28, about raising a confident boy - I’m raising a boy and a girl, and what I think is that if you raise your son- or daughter- to be truly confident, far from stepping on toes to get ahead of the pack, they will instead actually inspire confidence in others because they will be neither afraid to make a mistake nor over eager to show what they know.
IMO, most men are not, in fact, confident, it’s just that they are socialised to appear confident at all times which sometimes is good but sometimes isn’t. They are also socialised to give things a try, to take a risk, and so are less troubled by the shiny technological things that many women need prodding to use.
Women, on the other hand are socialised to be less confident or at least appear less confident - for example those adolescent friendships where girls try to be supportive of each other by minimising their friend’s “flaws”, and maximising their own - “No way, you look great…I’m fat, I’ve put on x pounds”. We are socialised to see the appearance of confidence as evidence of arrogance, or thinking you’re above others, and as children usually squash it down in ourselves and other girls. It doesn’t surprise me that the women were less willing to express an opinion.
How do you know so much about my life?
Case 1: I took a class on recreating Newton’s experiments on Optics. I was the only girl and all the guys were at least 2 years older than me. As much as I wanted to play with the cool prisms and spin them around, there were so many (tall, wide) guys crowding the equipment that instead I did the data collection part of the experiment . And I really REALLY wanted to take more initiative but didn’t know how, and then felt angry with myself for it.
Case 2: I’m from a family of engineers. Dad and younger brother are computer whizzes and I learned more than a few things being around them. But somehow I never thought of myself as an expert, and whenever my computer acted, up I passed it to one of them to fix it. Now fast forward to graduate school, and I found myself in a lab where I knew more about computers than anyone else in lab. Another student wanted to send me some large files and I said:
“Oh, just upload it to your webspace and send me the link”
He said, “I don’t know how to do that.”
I barely stopped myself from saying, “But you’re supposed to know that! You’re a boy!”
I wanted to slam the fume-hood sash on my neck for that one.
It’s a constant struggle to stay aware of these stereotypes, even though my entire academic career proves them wrong.
From Antigone:
I tend to be gender opposite: I talk a lot in classes, argue with anyone and everyone, will call total strangers on making rape jokes, and give interviews at any protest. In fact, I think I do this too much; and need to work on not verbally stepping on people. The only thing is, I have no idea where the “mean” is: the appropriate level for me to speak as a human. I know where it is as a woman (almost never) and I know where it is for a guy (almost never shutting up) but, I have no idea where the gender nuetral part is.
I’m in much the same boat. It’s fascinating, isn’t it? I do wonder what the ‘reasonable adult human being’ level of speech is, and I struggle to locate it between ‘defer to everyone else’ and ‘bulldoze straight over the discussion’. I try to be aware of not railroading or silencing people around me, but at the same time I refuse to confine myself to a small, correct-girl-behaviour, everyone-else-before-me box. I have the same right to speak as everyone else, not more, not less.
The point I reach is usually to try to keep track of actual amounts of time each person spends talking (including myself) and do what I can to equalise the scoreboard. If my being quiet now means that someone else who’s already had too much floortime sees their chance, I will make a concerted effort to get a third party who hasn’t had much of a say to speak. Usually this means I’ll ask a man to pipe down for a second so we can hear the opinion of a woman other than me.
Lisa, you forgot
5) Every other time you’ve blurted out the right answer, everyone has completely ignored you. You might as well not have spoken at all. So what good would it do now?
But…that kind of experience generally leads to finding another school. At least, that’s what happened in my case.
From what I heard from a Prof I had and friend/acquaintances who work in admissions at different universities, this has become a common theme in most universities and colleges with the glaring exception of engineering schools where the gender disparity is still the exact reverse and thus, heard MIT and Carnegie Mellon male graduates complain about “lowered admission standards” for female applicants.
Though I did not notice much of a disparity when I attended a private liberal arts college as a scholarship student, the gender ration was hitting around 60% female/40% male in the mid-90s. Most of my classes tended to be evenly split in terms of gender. Only exceptions I recall were some lower-division American history/Poli-sci courses where there were slightly more women and a couple of upper-level History/Poli-sci seminars where males were the majority…or in some cases…the only gender as was the case in one Chinese history seminar course.
Out of curiosity, what subject do you teach?
Amanda–
I read your comment on the moblogic board, where you mentioned studies suggesting that women in a group are sometimes perceived as dominating a conversation when their participation is significant, though still lesser than the participation of the men in the group. . . . Probably a long shot but do you remember the source for this? I’d love to be able to reference this. . . .
Just because they complain doesn’t mean it’s true.It’s my understanding that when MIT admissions discussed ways to get more women admitted, the faculty refused to consider lowering standards for female applicants. What they did was *raise* the standards on the verbal/written part of the SAT, so that those scores count as much as the math. Result: the sex ratio among MIT students is now about 50:50.
It’s been said before, lots of times, but it bears repeating…the main reason women are reluctant to get mixed up with technical things is that women aren’t allowed to make mistakes, especially about, or around, machinery. A man who’s not an expert can tinker with a technical toy and, if his unfamiliarity with it does it harm, he can get one of his techie buddies to fix it or take it into the shop without having reinforced an impression that men are hopeless around technical stuff. A woman, OTOH, who bungles or blunders with a mechanical object has typed and classed herself utterly and eternally and beyond every last vestige of hope. At that moment, she is that dumb bit of fluff about whom her entire culture jokes. A man who’s trying to fix the radiator and who breaks the radiator instead has not committed an inadmissible faux pas, but a woman who does the same thing is guilty of a major social lapse. Not only that, she’s confirmed all the claims of her enemies. And not only that, the radiator’s still broken. It makes sense for her to silently resolve that next time she’ll let her husband or her boyfriend try to fix the damned thing, because even if he blows the house up at least she won’t end up carrying the blame.
See, when I walk down the street, I do it with my head high and my shoulders back, and I DARE anyone to approach me with harassment. They’d get their asses handed to them. People have. I’d talk to someone who approached with a camera and a microphone, but I’m an actor by degree and I like the spotlight.
I don’t move out of the way of men, the go around me. And, truth be told, I assume men are stupid until proven otherwise. It’s the way I’ve learned to operate, in my job, in the academic field, or in social situations. I’m spoiled though, because I work in a building filled with strong, independent, ballsy women. I believe there are 7 men in my whole department. Not discriminating, just the industry we work in.
I know I’m guilty of reverse sexism. And I also know it sucks. I treat women I encounter with respect and friendliness, regardless of how they look, and I treat men with suspicion and concealed hostility. Not outwardly mean, but I assume any man I meet has the potential to try to hurt me, whether it’s verbally or physically, so I use the suspicion to keep myself safe.
*braces for the barrage*
I think these woman a just smarter, you want my opinion?, you want me to provide content for your business?, simple, Pay Me. Why should i sacrifice my privacy for your bottom line?
There’s only one way to answer these annoying (wo)man in the street interviews,
“I am just typical Russian citizen with no particular interest in politics”
Albatross! ALBatross! ALBATROSS!
Probably a long shot but do you remember the source for this? I’d love to be able to reference this. . . .
Just about any basic text about language and gender will cite these studies–I’d start with Jennifer Coates. IIRC, when a woman’s timed participation in a 1:1 conversation with a man approaches 20-25%, she’s perceived as ‘dominating’ and ‘talking too much’. The author I remember analysing this finding wrote something like ‘women aren’t perceived as being too talkative compared to men, but rather compared silence.’
I’ll go back and read the rest of the comments in a second but:
Unree: “Most–maybe all–forums of public discussion in this country amplify the voices of men and muffle the voices of women. ”
This is one of my biggest pet peeves. I realize that I’m in the engineering field and women are vastly outnumbered by men but I absolutely hate it when I attending or listening to a lecture and when it gets to the Q&A portion, not a single female voice is heard.
My last semester of college the then new president/CEO of NASA came to speak to my department and when he got around to asking questions I realized that I had a few questions that I wanted answered, and what do you know, I haven’t heard any other women yet so I raised my hand and waited… and waited… and waited. People around me started to raise their hands too just to bring his attention to where I was. Finally he got to the point where he could only answer a few more questions so (keeping my hand in the air) I stood up and made him acknowledge me. I asked a pointed question about something he had briefly touched on and while he remained professional in his answer, he got visibily angry and basically (politely) said it was a stupid question to ask.
That was either the last or 2nd to last question and when the lecture was done I had both professors and other students come up to me and say no, it wasn’t a stupid question, it was something that needed to be asked and he should have called on me sooner.
Another thing I remembered after reading everyone else’s comments:
I have a newish coworker who interrupts me constantly when I’m speaking even when he asks me a question. As soon as I noticed this I started to continue saying whatever I was trying to say when he broke in and then continue talking until either he shut up and let me finish, or (what’s happened more frequently) he demanded that I not interrupt him.
Ali, I’ve learned to do that too, with a widened eye look of annoyance that the interrupter, and an increase in my volume to talk over him.
I think part of the issue is that members of any minority class, even if it’s a majority of the population, are forced into a bizarre sort of useless ambassadorship — anything an individual minority does well or correctly won’t actually further the idea that minorities are people, but anything she or he does badly will reflect badly upon her or his entire minority group. It makes doing anything at all more difficult.
“the main reason women are reluctant to get mixed up with technical things is that women aren’t allowed to make mistakes, especially about, or around, machinery.”
This is true to some extent, but I’ve observed a tendency amongst some women to encourage men to do “spatial” tasks (*) so they don’t have to, because they find them frustrating. Actively, and despite encouragement to learn how to do the task unaided. You can argue that this is a consequence social conditioning, of course, but why should that necessarily be so?
(*) such as recalling the correct arrangement of wires and devices for a particular purpose or manipulating the internals of a small device.