Whoops, I guess Alison Bechdel’s marvelous book Fun Home caused some people to accidentally feel sympathetic towards queer people, and realize they are human beings, deserving of equality like everyone else. That’s why they had to flip out and label it “pornography” in an attempt to get the book out of university classes.
Time Magazine voted it the book of the year, but some students are calling it pornographic and asking it be removed from their curriculum.
Thomas Alvord, with the group “No More Pornography,” says, “The issue is exposing people to pornography.”
The issue is with “Fun Home,” a book assigned for reading in a mid-level English class at the University of Utah. The class introduces students to different literary genres. In the case of “Fun Home,” it’s told in the style of a comic book. The story centers around the author as she comes to terms with her own and her father’s homosexuality.
Drawings depicting sex acts are included in the 230 page novel. A student in the class was offended and approached the group “No More Pornography,” which made headlines earlier this year when it staged a successful protest of music videos shown a gym in Provo.
This sort of bullshit will pretty much permanently fuck up any attempt of feminists to start a reasonable discussion about why so many men are attracted to a flavor of pornography that is as much, if not more, about humiliating and hating women as it is about getting men off. Which is not even all porn, but certainly doesn’t encapsulate novels like this. Hell, we’re stuck in definitional hell, with the right wingers defining porn as “any material that portrays sexuality in a way that I don’t approve of”, and most everyone else in liberal land defining it as, “sexually explicit materials designed to sexually arouse the reader/viewer”, and radical feminists defining it as “photos and videos where the humiliation and pain of the woman is considered an essential part of the erotic experience for the viewer”. Which is, to be fair to radical feminists, the majority of the material available through your internet channels or “Girls Gone Wild” videos. I’m not getting into the discussion of censorship from feminists, since it’s a red herring, since the number of feminists willing to talk censorship is a minority of a minority.
What I will say is that I suspect the events portrayed in this book are much more dangerous to the right wing worldview than actual porn. Below the fold is one of the offending illustrations, posted by Bechdel.
I’d say that frame, far more than the depictions of the same act in so much porn designed for consumption by straight men, probably would incline someone who feels like she’s a lesbian but is afraid to come out, to be a little braver about the possibilities. And it’s that sort of subtle touch, that ability of Bechdel’s to capture so many various levels of feeling in any given situation, that really makes the book such an instant classic.
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Maxim is more graphic, really. The objection is clearly to the subject matter; the illustrations are a politically convenient cover.
So I finished reading Sexual Politics by Kate Millet, which I absolutely adored, and I’m wheedling my way through Bewitching Women, Pious Men. Does anyone have any more reading suggestions? Sorry if I’m threadjacking!
In Divinity School–you know that place that produces Christian Ministers–any given Human Sexuality in the Hebrew Bible or Ancient Near East (which is a standard elective course offered every year) has WAY MORE graphic illustrations (and graffti) assigned. Seriously, you should see those Penis totems! Human sexuality is a huge part of life and needs to be open to inquiry, critical thinking, and analysis, just like any other part of life.
eh, I just can’t get my underwear in a knot over what some fundie professor finds upsetting.
hopefully, what this does, is draw more deserved attention to A.B.’s book, and students demand to buy it.
off topic, but: has anyone else ever been confused about the “insult” “carpet muncher”. in high school, I just thought, “what? well, if a guy’s doing his job (on a woman), then, doesn’t that make him one, too? and, isn’t that a good thing?”
I’ve taken every opportunity when heard this term in a derogatory context, to point out that any heterosexual/bisexual man worth his weight, is one is well. You know, so that maybe people, in general, realize being a “carpet muncher” is not an insult, but a great thing. I just cannot educate kids on the job, that sling that as an “insult”, and then belittle them for their obvious lack of sexual prowess. it’s one of those things that all one can say is “inappropriate”, without explaining, unless one is just dying to lose their job.
of course, there are some grown men, who are straight, or semi-straight, that will tell you they hate going down on women. my response, when this information is shared (and, god, I can never figure out how or why this information gets volunteered- except it’s usually by men trying to downgrade lesbian and bisexual women): “oh, well… I guess some women are okay with that”. meaning, uh, good luck with that one, buddy. no b.j.s for you!
nevermind. too much to do, mind all over the place. need Coke Zero.
ah, the things that just pop into my head. self-monitoring those thoughts- just not into it today. call me “Anya”.
Backlash is really good: Against Our Will is probably a requirment. I always reccomend Women Who Kill by Ann Jones for a very good overview of society’s attitudes toward women and Virgin or Vamp by Helen Benedict.
Ok. I bought and read both Fun Home and Lost Girls (loved both, by the way). Let us discuss the differences. Lost Girls has plenty of redeeming artistic value, but one of its intents is to arouse the reader. Fun Home’s sex scenes aren’t about arousing the reader. They’re about lots of things, identity and relationships and memories and love, but they’re not wank material. Unless you’re really, really desperate for wank material, I suppose. (Lost Girls is both. Also as meta as Alan Moore ever is, and has parts I find problematic, but this isn’t about that.)
Also, university classes? Can’t you just drop the class if you’re that offended by it? Surely there’s another lit class you could take. One of the classes I took first semester of freshman year in college was a fantastic course, in which we read Angels in America Part One, among other fantastic things. On the first day of class, the professor pointed out that assignment in the syllabus, and noted that he had written on the syllabus “This material contains descriptions of homosexual sex. If you are offended by this, please drop the class now.” No one tried to ban that book from use in all university classes, and I went to a public university in the South, where people organized counter-Bible-studies to historical New Testament courses. I mean, I can at least understand the logic of trying to get a book banned from high school curricula, but university?
ah, nevermind. so, it’s a student that was upset by this? oh, dear. well, see- that’s what I’m sort of rambling about: this student is probably upset to see we all do the same/similar sexual acts, or we’re potentially viewed as backwards, if we don’t. oh, poor, student. It’s time to go to college, ‘kay, lil’ one? be a big boy/girl now, and play nicely with others. (or just drop out- we don’t need anymore small minds getting degrees- really devalues a degree, when fundies can get them)
This episode kind of reminds me of a couple years go when fundies protested that awful TV show The Book of Daniel and I was torn between wanting the dreck to be canceled and not wanting to see religious groups claiming a win. Not to say the book is good or bad (I never read it), just that the BoD TV show was the first thing that popped in my mind.
A student in the class was offended and approached the group “No More Pornography,” which made headlines earlier this year when it staged a successful protest of music videos shown a gym in Provo.
It seems to be a pretty low bar to have an unsuccessful protest, doesn’t it? What do they have to do, not show up?
Reading that snippit makes me doubt that the group would really get much table space in the pornography debate; they come off just as your average benign student protest group who just happened to be idiosyncratic enough to capture news coverage on a slow news day.
off topic, but: has anyone else ever been confused about the “insult” “carpet muncher”. in high school, I just thought, “what? well, if a guy’s doing his job (on a woman), then, doesn’t that make him one, too? and, isn’t that a good thing?”
This is based purely on The Sopranos, but on the show the “tough men” all found the idea of cunninglingus to be totally “gay” (or whatever the Italian word for gay is) and emasculating.
Holly, Women are “carpet munchers”. Men are “muff divers”. Not sure why there is a difference but my understanding is that carpet munching means “gay” & muff diver means “stud”. FWIW
wow. and Sopranos was supposed to be such a great show. I suppose this was done tongue-in-cheek? these men were being made fun of? has to be.
ha. it’s “gay” for a man to go down on a woman? I’m sooo confused.
Isn’t this exactly why there are wingnut/fundnut diploma mills? That way budding little wingnuts can go all the way from birth to college degree without ever having been exposed to something outside the scope of wingnuttia.
If they can then swing a wingnut-welfare job, they could go an entire lifetime without ever having their narrow views challenged.
Leave the real colleges for the rest of us…
Gosh, students in majority Mormon Utah are upset about a sympathetic portrayal of growing up as a lesbian? That’s a shocker.
And having read Fun Home, I can say that you must be pretty desperate for wank material to seize on those few panels, especially since you don’t see anything anatomical. I think there might be a naked boob or two, but the panel Amanda has is by far the most explicit in the book.
Sorry, but Fun Home bears about as much resemblance to pornography as Faulkner or Maugham, which also — gasp! — include sex and references to sex. If your standard for pornography is “contains partial nudity and references to sex,” I’ve got a bunch of pre-Code movies from the 1930s that will send you screaming into the night.
It seems to me carpet muncher is more about shag, IE unattractive vaginas. Which is fucking stupid, but there it is. The insult seems to directly play into virgin/whore dichotomies. Big ups to any teacher who doesn’t tolerate that shit.
“I’d love to see what books didn’t incite alarm”
Um, Little House on the Prairie…?
Well, I have two problems with it. One, it’s comparing women’s pubic hair to a carpet. Ew. Most women’s pubic hair is a hell of a lot cleaner and more pleasant than their carpets, thank you very much. Two, it’s reducing people to their sex lives. Whether I “munch” “carpet” is between me and my partner(s). I do get what you’re saying, though, and even if the men in question weren’t performing cunnilingus, some of us enjoy it.
O…kay. Most of the gay men I know would vehemently disagree. Ah, the sexually anxious male. Do they ever make sense?
oh, I’ve heard women called “muff divers”, as well. I did, to my glee, one recent Sunday see this really strange couple out for a late lunch recently, with the woman (indoors, mind you), with her hands tucked ever so neatly inside a fur muff. I pointed it out to my intended, and we both were laughing, and I said that I simply had to text my (as the couple’s table was next to ours- how European-Kansas City!) number one girl crush. boytoy, smirked and laughed a little, but he did have trouble understanding what I was saying, as we’ve become so accustomed to “muff” not having anything to do with little girls’ coats, let alone women’s outerwear. so, there was a lot of: what?! WHAT?!, and then I texted it across the table to him, and slightly moved my chin and eyes to my right.
my grand KC girl crush couldn’t think of a better place to keep one’s cold hands.
luckily, boy-toy found this amusing. oh, and said couple: the man ordered for the woman. that’s what boy-toy first noticed. I was fixated on the strict folding of the hands inside the muff- and wondering how my mother kept a straight face when I used to beg her for a coat with a faux, or fur muff. she just would say that she had those, herself, as a little girl. hmmm….
wow. and Sopranos was supposed to be such a great show. I suppose this was done tongue-in-cheek? these men were being made fun of? has to be.
ha. it’s “gay” for a man to go down on a woman? I’m sooo confused.
So was Carmela.
The whole thing was basically tongue-in-cheek, with Junior going to great lengths trying to keep the fact that he was talented at the act a secret. After he was outed, Junior was so furious that he retaliated by telling the rest of the crew that Tony was seeing a psychologist, putting Tony in danger of being whacked for being a rat.
Also? The name of the episode was Boca (gettit? GETTIT?)
oh, well; I do get that “carpet” was used to denigrate women, and doesn’t have much to do with actual texture. but, that was the term used to describe women who are attracted to women. so, in my strict, literal sense, I just thought: whatever: if you’re doing your job, boy, then you’re one, too.
I’d love to see what books didn’t incite alarm”
Um, Little House on the Prairie…?
Wasn’t one of the characters raped by a clown on the TV show?
JH- that’s awesome. I guess the other characters
were totally jealous!
yea, for La Boca!
http://www.tuckermax.com/
He has more class than you and actually pays his own bills, unlike you.
oh, and um, I don’t know how I know this (/snark?): but it seems that guys around here, if they’re good at it, they’re proud of it.
Dear Benji:
Que?
No, I’m really confused. Who are you directing this at? Tucker Max. Is that like Vox Day?
Can’t you just drop the class if you’re that offended by it? Surely there’s another lit class you could take.
Seriously. Anytime these university-level book banning stories come to light (or students trying to get professors fired for ’sexual harassment’ over using an ‘offensive’ text, and the like), that’s my first thought.
My second thought is usually that the student wasn’t doing well in the class and is trying to get the whole course invalidated, exact revenge on the professor, or have a good out for why they failed (or dropped ‘with a W’, or coded a ‘pass’ or ‘incomplete’ rather than a real grade) for future grad school admissions.
Oh, and Benji: I seriously doubt that you know who of us here has our bills paid out of a trust fund, and who works 60 hours a week. Why are you so angry?
wow. and Sopranos was supposed to be such a great show.
Great shows can’t have moronic characters? They’re fucking mobsters! Scumbags of epic proportion. Expect expertly drawn pathos and violence, not sensitivity to sexual politics.
If Fun House offends the fundies maybe the class should assign some nasty assed tentacle-rape hentai manga next… the fundies heads would a-splode!
Has Benjamin slipped a cog?
Do you have a point to make?…
I really have to applaud your dedication to recycling, Benjamin. That old trope has been in circulation since the 1960s, before most of us were born, but you insist on pulling it out of the trash bin, giving it a new coat of paint, and presenting it like it’s something brand-new that you just thought of. Kudos to you.
“Also, university classes?
Yep. One of my first reactions was ‘wait - this is at a university‘? High school I can understand, but . . .
“ah, the things that just pop into my head. self-monitoring those thoughts- just not into it today. call me “Anya”.”
So, Anya, what do you think of bunnies?
“Tucker Max. Is that like Vox Day?”
Benjamin is living in his own shitty Swordfish fantasy:
“He exists in a world beyond your world. What we only fantasize, he does. He lives a life where nothing is beyond him. But you know what? It’s all a facade. For all his charm and charisma, his wealth, his expensive toys… he’s a driven, unflinching, calculating machine. He takes what he wants, when he wants… and disappears.”
Of course, I don’t know if Benjamin can write such bad dialog though…you need actual talent for that…
Little Fun Home on the Prairie.
Great shows can’t have moronic characters? They’re fucking mobsters! Scumbags of epic proportion. Expect expertly drawn pathos and violence, not sensitivity to sexual politics.
Though I have to say I had to give up on The Sopranos, high quality television entertainment be damned, when they Just Couldn’t Stop depicting brutal violence towards women, with an almost pornographic bent. Somewhere around season 3, I think. It was like “hey, let’s beat some strippers to death in this episode, and then next week we’ll brutally rape Dr. Melfi, and hey, isn’t Meadow due to be taken down a peg?”
With all respect to the concept of the unsympathetic narrator, I just can’t watch that stuff.
On one message board I used to hang out at, a troll started flaming the moderator, calling him (among other things) a “cunt-sucker”. The moderator’s response: “You say that like it’s a bad thing–what’s wrong with you?”
I stopped watching The Sopranos because, like every single one of those high-praise shows, they where intellectually stimulating with engaging characters, but at the same time dry as fuck.
MikeEss:
“Has Benjamin slipped a cog?”
Well, he did use Tucker Max and “class” together in the same comment…
…so, like, Q.E.D.
Do not taunt happy fun ball.
Do not feed the troll. (Unless you happen to know him personally and are on a roleplaying server, but even then.)
ah, Dan: I actually like “BUNNIES, BUNNIES, BUNNIES!” That’s where she and I diverge. I’m not scared of them; rather feel sorry for female rabbits- all of that reproducing. Dang. that’s hard on a girl.
and they’re cute. and cuddly.
With all respect to the concept of the unsympathetic narrator, I just can’t watch that stuff.
I don’t like the show much either. It’s like The Bad Lieutenant, A Clockwork Orange or Man Bites Dog; I can’t diss the quality and power of the presentation but I ain’t watching the damn thing ever again.
Like I said, Tucker has more class than Amanda and actually pays his own bills rather than sponging off someone else like Amanda does with her cuckold with no game.
Just to see how far away from the topic we can actually go…
I was in my local big chain pet store a while ago, not to support them, but because they have baby bunnies I can skritch. In the display next to the (no more than eight week old) baby bunnies was their mama with a litter of newer babies. I was overcome by a surge of feminist rage (you all know the one, yes?), and I had to stop myself from liberating her out of there under my coat. I had no idea their constant supply of adorable babies all came from the same poor, overheated female.
But anyway, back to the book. A few more humanising portrayals of queer young women would have done me a world of good when I was younger*. Not to mention the good they would have done for everyone around me. But, no, God insists that we make scared kids feel like the freaks of nature they are rather than humanise teh kweerz.
*In fact, they still will. So many books, sooo broke. Sigh.
The seductive scent of Benjamin-flavored bunnies is in the air…
Little Troll on the Prairie…?
On topic (sort of), I imagine Benji would be exactly the kind of desperate wanker that would find Fun Home “useful”…
…you know, if he loses his Ann-Coulter-in-an-SS-uniform pictures…
This crap happens at universities more than you might think. I occasionally have students complain about having to read about anything involving gays/lesbians and I just point to the portion in the syllabus that discusses upcoming controversial material. I do have a colleague in an English department in TX who was teaching a class on “Fallen Women” (obvious in terms of what the topic is) and a student complained and proposed her own list of Christian literature addressing women–and her chair forced her to do an independent study with this fundie student (no extra pay) in order to avoid a stink.
…you know, if he loses his Ann-Coulter-in-an-SS-uniform pictures…
Hey! Leave Max Mosely out of this.
This “Benjamin” thing I believe is just some sort of low-level javascript. (I mean, c’mon “Max Tucker”? What sort of brain dead dweeb is into that?)
Probably someone restored from an old dusty archive. And note the poor, hell, nonexistent grammar– just poorly coded java. Movin’ on.
“Uh, so, Martin, what? No yellow ribbons?
Didn’t anybody miss you? Don’t you think you should tell her why you’re really in town, tough guy?
Huh? You know what we love? We love tough guys like you.”
“Thanks. That was our own Michigan Militia with their latest chart-topper.”
Honestly, benj, are you unhinged in some way of which we should be aware?
Ann Coulter in an SS uniform….
I’m laughing, but I’m scared.
Didn’t a Benjamin come here once and try to pass off a story about Amanda in high school… something about the prom…?? Or am I thinking of a different troll?
I did my PhD in the English dept at the U of Utah — these things come around with regularity. For one thing, the writing department deliberately picks material they know will challenge the “local culture” as a way to push students to start thinking critically — when I was teaching comp it was revisionist Western history that got the students all worked up — the State Legistlature also sent cops up to sit in the back of Kathryn Stockton’s Queer Theory classes for a while — that sucked. It’s Utah, they think they want a real R1 university, they just don’t want one that will challenge any of their beliefs (how can they be challenged? they’re all True?). Sorry. Still recovering from that experience … sigh.
I think you’re right. Geez, the guy really is into recycling, isn’t he? Once you get well into your twenties, who the hell is still pissed off about what people did in high school?
“Once you get well into your twenties, who the hell is still pissed off about what people did in high school?”
…but what if Benji is MENTALLY still in high school?…
…but what if Benji is MENTALLY still in high school?…
I don’t think Benji even has his mental GED. Heck, he may not even have his mental 8th-grade diploma.
Troll food. What is your point, Benjamin? Or do you just troll around websites and smack down the little girls with your big, oversized ‘Mericun penis?
Every time you show up here, you’re just more damn stupid than the last. No one would miss you if you died in some autoerotic mishap, ya’ know.
RE: Muff Diving.
In the movie, “Dr. Strangelove, …,” the PRESIDENT of the USA is named Merkin Muffley. If you don’t recognize the word merkin, thefreedictionary.com can supply a definition.
“No one would miss you if you died in some autoerotic mishap, ya’ know.”
Hey, anybody got a spare wetsuit and a “marital aid” he can shove up his ass?…
‘On the first day of class, the professor pointed out that assignment in the syllabus, and noted that he had written on the syllabus “This material contains descriptions of homosexual sex. If you are offended by this, please drop the class now.”’
Exactly.
At my university, a prof teaches “American Psycho” in a Fiction of Horror class, with no problems whatsoever. Of course, he does tell the class during the first lecture that some of the course material is graphic, but not reading books for religious or cultural “values” reasons won’t fly–drop the course if it’s a problem, and take another section.
One would think the graphic carnage in “American Psycho” would cause way more of a rumpus than mild moments of homosex…but of course it doesn’t in this world. No mystery, I suppose.
Once you get well into your twenties, who the hell is still pissed off about what people did in high school?
People for whom high school was the high point of their lives and are angry that the same traits that made them kings and queens of The Second Lowest Circle of Hell are forcing them to watch their lives circle the drain as they get into their late twenties, and all the while they have to listen to the laughter of all the dorks, nerds, and geeks who have grown past them.
The Bible is rather pornographic and contains scenes of extreme violence.
“The Bible is rather pornographic and contains scenes of extreme violence.”
Without a doubt. But carpet munching? Muff diving? Lady lickin’?
Besides, what is Jeremiah Wright’s position on The Love That Dare Not Speak Its Name?…
I refuse to believe that Benjamin was ever king of anything except jerking off, in high school or otherwise. He was that creepy guy who sat in the back of the class and wore the same faded t-shirt every day and cackled at some stupid private joke every few minutes. Even the stoners avoided him.
It’s not libel if it’s true, right?
But carpet munching? Muff diving? Lady lickin’?
Well you know, Mary and Martha from the New Testament were really only “sisters” in the metaphorical sense…
“off topic, but: has anyone else ever been confused about the “insult” “carpet muncher”. in high school, I just thought, “what? well, if a guy’s doing his job (on a woman), then, doesn’t that make him one, too? and, isn’t that a good thing?”
This is based purely on The Sopranos, but on the show the “tough men” all found the idea of cunninglingus to be totally “gay” (or whatever the Italian word for gay is) and emasculating.
You’re giving waaaay to much credit to The Sopranos here. Using terms such as “carpet-muncher,” “muff diver,” etc. as derogatory terms for lesbians (or using them as a way to emasculated boys) were in use when I was in high school also and I graduated in the early 90’s, well before The Sopranos ever hit the air. In my experience, those terms are used by homophobic asshats, whether in real life or on TV.
Ack! I can’t believe I didn’t know about this, being a student at the University of Utah.
I should probably be doing something about this.
Always funny how you queens, making no money, have so much time on your hands to circle jerk and continue to make no money and find a way to sponge off your parents. Most of you, like Amanda, were ridiculed in school, wore gothic makeup and black findernail polish trying to deal with same insecurities you have today and can’t overcome. People like me employ and fire people like you, after we find out you lied on your resume and really can’t do anything. Lol.
Geeze, kids nowdays: don’t they teach any history?
I graduated from high school in 1975, and those terms were old then.
As was pointed out to me once:
The most romantic line in the Bible is “Whither thou goest, I will follow” (Ruth 1:16). Who said it, and to whom…?
“Always funny how you queens, making no money, have so much time on your hands to circle jerk and continue to make no money and find a way to sponge off your parents.”
…unlike Benji, who, as a pillar of American Industry, is WAY too important and busy to comment on some insignificant blog like Pandagon…oh wait…
But carpet munching? Muff diving? Lady lickin’?
Well, the Bible only mentions female/female sex once (if that’s even what that passage means), and it doesn’t go into much detail. (Then again, it doesn’t go into a huge amount of detail when it talks about male/male sex either.)
<historygeek>
This probably has its origin in Ancient Rome
1. A real man can put his dick wherever he wants.
2. Except if he wants to put it in a freeborn Roman male, because…
3. …Being penetrated is inherently emasculating.
3a. Sex organs are inherently dirty, and putting one in your mouth is teh ick.
3b. Putting girl parts in your mouth is doubleplus ick, because it’s like a woman penetrating you.
In the first season of the miniseries Rome, Julius Caesar and his wife are confronted with grafitti depicting him going down on his mistress, captioned with the word cinaedus, which was a highly derogatory term for effeminate men.
</historygeek>
TECH NOTE: wierd, the underlining got stripped from my last comment.
TESTING: this should be underlined
TECH NOTE: underlining is broken.
appears in the preview, not in the actual comment.
MikeEss,
“what is Jeremiah Wright’s position on The Love That Dare Not Speak Its Name?”
His stance is in flux as he gets more information I think (and I know, I know, I’m being generous but he is trying), but his church’s denomination is as liberal a mainline church you’ll see.
as for cunnilingus being effeminate in ancient history, let us all remember the idea of women having pleasure during sex is a very recent concept. As for male penetration, well…I can still remember my english professor at my baptist college blushing as he defined intercrural sex to a bunch of 18-year-olds.
“Benjamin”
Ha hahahahah, asshole, you still don’t get it: people like me refuse to work for tools such as yourself.
Have a nice heart attack.
Q: what do you call a Roman with a pubic hair in his teeth
A: Gladiator!
as for cunnilingus being effeminate in ancient history, let us all remember the idea of women having pleasure during sex is a very recent concept.
Um, how recent? This is one of those things that seem to go in and out of folk-wisdom. Puritan midwives certainly knew and gave instruction on female orgasm. And the publication of the first 18th century pamphlets defining masturbation as a medical disorder was shortly followed by dire warnings about the effects of the novel on women, “books read with one hand.” There is also a shockingly obscene little ditty attributed to Rumi about a woman’s love affair with an ass.
Aw geez, looks like Amanda’s book has attracted some vermin to the sight. A little spray under the bridge and POOF, Troll-b-gone!
The most romantic line in the Bible is “Whither thou goest, I will follow” (Ruth 1:16). Who said it, and to whom…?
look, some women actually LIKE their mother in law. It isn’t always that “oh, she’s a horrible old hatchet who still thinks of her son as a little boy and his wife is therefore automatically some evil whore” like on sitcoms.
and considering the whole ages thing you get for married women in biblical times, it could just be 12 year old widow Ruth found a mother figure who actually treats her like human being instead of property to be married off and doesn’t want to leave the one familial connection she’s actually made just to go home and become property again.
CBrachyrhynchos,
excluding your Rumi cite, we’re still within what, 300 years? In terms of human existence that is remarkably short. In terms of available cultural resources (2500+ years) it is still a relatively short time.
IMO. FWIW.
So, wait, it’s students trying to get this book banned? Holy mackeral. I know this isn’t a new thing but it never fails to blow my mind to see people paying for an education they refuse to receive.
wow. and Sopranos was supposed to be such a great show. I suppose this was done tongue-in-cheek? these men were being made fun of? has to be.
ha. it’s “gay” for a man to go down on a woman? I’m sooo confused.
It’s a macho thing. I dunno it’s historical roots, but I do know that as a young lad in the rural South both the black dudes and the rednecks frowned upon cunnilingus. The young guys, anyway. It just wasn’t done by a “real man”, sorta like reading for enjoyment or not picking on the dumb white trash kid. Adults didn’t have sex* but old men would get drunk and, invariably, accuse one another of “eatin’ pussy”. The accusee would just invariably say something along the lines of “Damn right”. Again, I noticed this across the board racially, but I was only seven or so at the time so take it all with a grain of salt.
People like me employ and fire people like you, after we find out you lied on your resume and really can’t do anything.
And then guys like me go work for the really cool guy who throws kick-ass parties every Christmas and is more concerned with his employees enjoying life in general than proving how big his dick is. I bet your employees steal from you constantly. And they don’t feel a’tall bad, either.
* Around us, anyway. After we graduated, something like seven out of 10 of my peers’ parents got divorced and, couple years later, a number more got caught up in some sort of swinger scandal. It was apparently an open secret but I had absolutely no idea such went down.
You’re giving waaaay to much credit to The Sopranos here. Using terms such as “carpet-muncher,” “muff diver,” etc. as derogatory terms for lesbians (or using them as a way to emasculated boys) were in use when I was in high school also and I graduated in the early 90’s, well before The Sopranos ever hit the air. In my experience, those terms are used by homophobic asshats, whether in real life or on TV.
I don’t think they even said “muff diver” or “carpet muncher” on the episode. I was just throwing out a possible explaination why implying that someone takes the A train down town as being derogatory.
Actually, the belief that women don’t enjoy sex is the recently coined one. Europeans, for one, assumed that female orgasm was just as necessary to reproduction as male orgasm from the Middle Ages until Victorian times. Take a look at Aristotle and some of the other Greek philosopher/scientists.
I bet your employees steal from you constantly. And they don’t feel a’tall bad, either.
people LIKE him, Matt. Bennie doesn’t have any employees, or skills to speak of. He’s just that company man suck up who works a shitty job without any benefits because “he can tell the boss is just like him.” He sucks up to management, so he knows they like him, so even if he doesn’t get any more money, or get to work less, or earn extra slack if he were accused of some petty offense that employers use to fire people, his boss is a fair weather friend to doesn’t mind talking to him at lunch, so it’s all good.
let us all remember the idea of women having pleasure during sex is a very recent concept
I have a cite from Ovid, “The Art of Love” that says you’re either wrong or you have a really different definition of “recent” than I do.
In the translation I have, the passage reads, A woman should feel the ecstasy deep in her bones; love-making should satisfy both partners equally.
Cowboy Diva: I guess when I see the words “very recent” I think “last week,” or at most, “the 1950s.” But if you want to go back to ancient history, Gilgamesh is pretty explicit when it comes to the priestess civilizes Enkidu by teaching him how to make love, as well as Ishtar’s curse against Gilgamesh for turning down her offer for a hook-up. So that can’t be claimed as a generality.
For that matter, there were Romans, and then there were Romans, Romans, Romans, and even more Romans. And some of those Romans were not shy about suggesting that a wife of a certain Emperor was so insatiable, she challenged the top prostitute of Rome to a contest on who could bed the most men in a day.
I think it’s good for people to be assigned to read things that offend them. In a political science seminar, I had to read Spencer, Oakeshott, and James Fennimore Cooper (I had no idea what a virulent racist and anti-democrat he was, in addition to being a shitty writer). Somehow, I was offended, and yet still lived! And even learned something in the process!
Amen, JV.
I stand corrected. It just flies in the face of other cultural norms of women being treated as property or as vessels for the “propagation of the race” that seemed prevalent at the time of the roman empire (and republic, for that matter) or the nomadic cultures of the fertile crescent.
[i]let us all remember the idea of women having pleasure during sex is a very recent concept
I have a cite from Ovid, “The Art of Love” that says you’re either wrong or you have a really different definition of “recent” than I do.[/i]
Ovid! Yay!
He also wrote out the story of Tiresias (in Metamorphoses), who was first a man, got changed into a woman for beating on some snakes who were doin’ it, and then switched back again when he found more snakes having sex. Jupiter and Juno were arguing about who enjoyed sex more, so they went to Tiresias because he had experience in these matters. Paraphrasing, he responded with “If you’ve got ten parts to divide, the guy gets exactly one. The other nine? Them ladies are hittin’ it up all the way”
“If you’ve got ten parts to divide, the guy gets exactly one. The other nine? Them ladies are hittin’ it up all the way”
You forgot to mention that he got blinded after that. If his story and the story of Socrates has taught us anything, its that no one likes a smart-ass
What, the student is going to next rally to censor Art History? “Origin of the World” by Gustave Courbet is a lot more graphic than Bechdel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L’Origine_du_monde
NSFW - painting of woman’s torso, vulva, and open thighs
Most of you, like Amanda, were ridiculed in school, wore gothic makeup and black findernail polish trying to deal with same insecurities you have today and can’t overcome. People like me employ and fire people like you, after we find out you lied on your resume and really can’t do anything. Lol.
Interesting how someone shows up to play troll just as somebody accomplishes something major?
Ah well, I think he has the wrong thread anyway. The Fundie Idiot Projection Thread is one thread down, dear.
Oh dear, I think they are going to have to ban the Salem, MA phone book next, and not because of all the witches.
I’m sure the very name of this fine local purveyor will give them fits to be sure! Especially if they want to buy margarita salt like this stuff.
What, the student is going to next rally to censor Art History? “Origin of the World” by Gustave Courbet is a lot more graphic than Bechdel.
Censor? Is that what we are calling “whining a lot about a class you don’t like” these days?
If I don’t pay my bills, I would have a lot more money. What an odd thing to accuse me of. Next: “He has a lot more class, and puts his pants on one leg at a time, unlike you.” I suspect that someone is trying to dehumanize me, big non-surprise.
If I didn’t pay my bills, how would I be able to post so much on the internet, after having my electricity and internet cut off, much less being evicted for non-payment of rent?
Anyway, you’re banned for insulting your betters, i.e. my kind and loving boyfriend. Sorry to disappoint you, but just because you can’t get laid doesn’t mean that the men who can are being taken for suckers.
I like the goth make-up and black fingernails thing, though. Next: I’m really a man. Or, I wore 3 piece suits in high school. Or whatever odd lies he comes up with.
There’s something really strange about a man who spends his time thinking up lies about a woman, but especially about her behavior 14 years ago. I think I wore black nail polish for Halloween? Maybe. I’m lazy, so probably didn’t put that much effort into it. It’s just really funny how bad the lies are. I’m like the sunniest person in real life, and I wear a lot of color.
On topic.
So, wait, it’s students trying to get this book banned? Holy mackeral. I know this isn’t a new thing but it never fails to blow my mind to see people paying for an education they refuse to receive.
Well, to be perfectly fair, they’re paying for the degree, not the education.
What, the student is going to next rally to censor Art History? “Origin of the World” by Gustave Courbet is a lot more graphic than Bechdel.
Censor? Is that what we are calling “whining a lot about a class you don’t like” these days?
…or maybe I just mis-read the “rally to” part of your post. Maybe that.
k… i admit that when i first the pic, before i got the contect (ah, context…( i thought it was a girl going down on a guy. but then context says its a girl on a girl, but it doesn;t LOOK that way, and nothing was SEEN. you the justifaction for women in action movied to be dressed in mud guns and insignia? i will believe this little group when they WAKE UP
As Amanda has already mentioned, the vast majority are paying for the credential….the education is looked upon as an afterthought at best and a severe annoyance/obstacle towards that goal.
Even at my college where being openly vocal about attending college for the sake of that credential was considered declasse….I estimate that only 40% of us were there to seriously learn something….everyone else was going through the motions to get the credential for professional, social, or progressive-left activist cred.
Mind you…this is much better than many universities……especially the Ivy-level ones as attested by friends who attended. They estimated that 90% of the students were there for the gold-plated degree….and paid little, if any heed to actually learning something beyond what would be applicable in the “corporate professional” context while there.
I’m seeing that picture and I can’t call it pornographic. I’m barely turned on by it, and I’m the kind of guy who just about fulfills that old lie about men thinking about sex every X seconds.
I was in my local big chain pet store a while ago, not to support them, but because they have baby bunnies I can skritch. In the display next to the (no more than eight week old) baby bunnies was their mama with a litter of newer babies. I was overcome by a surge of feminist rage (you all know the one, yes?), and I had to stop myself from liberating her out of there under my coat. I had no idea their constant supply of adorable babies all came from the same poor, overheated female.
It’s… a bunny. The whole reproductive strategy of bunnies is to pop them out real fast. Its purposes in life are to eat, crap and reproduce. It doesn’t stroll around gazing at architecture; it eats, craps and reproduces. It doesn’t agitate for its rights as an autonomous bunny; it eats, craps and reproduces. It doesn’t have an unfinished novel it intends to write sometime to set the world afire; it eats, craps and reproduces. The bunny that dies with the most offspring wins - this is a winning bunny!
There was an article I read recently about how people treating dogs like children often led to actual, unintended, cruelty to the animal. Dogs are dogs, not babies. Bunnies are bunnies, not deprived mothers in need of rescuing.
And on the main topic - I’m on the wrong end of forty, and not married or partnered. I’d *better* be okay with carpet-munching if I don’t want to be a total asshole to any woman I go to bed with. In a sane world, it would be taught to all (straight) guys at high school as a simple matter of courtesy.
Susie Bright made the best comment about real men and dykes.
I wish I have a more constructive comment, but OMG, I would have to get that book now!
Thanks for the link, Phonecian, as it led me here, much to my interest.
First of all, I think “Fun Home” is one of the greatest memoirs written, and certainly women’s memoirs written, in decades. It is absolute genius, mouth-dropping. I am at the beginning of writing a memoir myself, and I find Bechdel’s work both inspiring, a role model, and perhaps a reason I should throw in the towel!
It belongs in hundreds of classrooms, and i hope more professors will make it part of their “canon.”
Anyway, of course, this “protest” is more religious rightwing horseshit. What I’d like to point out, beyond this event or political slant, is that it’s in vogue now for students to treat classrooms like menus, and professors like submissive waitresses who need to be slapped around. “There’s no pickle, I hate mustard, I refuse to eat my vegetables, this wool makes me itch….” As a teacher, I hear this all the time, the preemptive, “I don’t want to learn this because it isn’t already my perfect bath temperature.”
Teachers face so much of this pressure they make a lot of “dumbing down” decisions just to hedge the endless wrath and undermining.
I support the student’s opportunity to change professors/sections/classes early in a semester. That’s appropriate educational choice. But to STAY in a class, to be a “agent provocateur,” to destroy the class with your malice and bullshit, and insist that you be treated like a rajah…. It’s outrageous.
It comes from every part of the political spectrum, especially the part where the “protester has no particular point of view at all except that of a narcissist and a spoiler.
For that matter, there were Romans, and then there were Romans, Romans, Romans, and even more Romans.
So, presumably, they knew something about sex…
It comes from every part of the political spectrum, especially the part where the “protester has no particular point of view at all except that of a narcissist and a spoiler.
In other words, an IRL troll!
Some college friends of mine who later TAed courses in universities…especially at the Ivy-level ones have witnessed/experienced being threatened with lawsuits from parents of students who are irate at the poor grades they received…regardless of the mountains of evidence proving the justness/generosity of that grade.
Though these suits usually go nowhere, university admins tend to back the demands of these students…especially if they come from the very upper/upper-middle class families the admins hope will become generous donating alumni once they graduate.
OT: Amanda, out of curiosity, did you purchase the applecare extended warranty for your Macbookpro? Just asking as my mother owns one and had to send it in recently for warranty repair due to a faulty superdrive after 1.5 years.
In other words, an IRL troll!
you say that like it’s a bad thing.
of course, I’m from the school of thought that a troll isn’t properly executed unless you leave just enough of a strand there that if the provokatee (it’s a word now) weren’t so self absorbed and “serious business” that they’d figure out you were just fucking with them at the get go. of course, because I’m a sport, I then proceed to make more and more outlandish claims until it’s got to be painfully obvious to anyone. I’ve had to go all the way to “Well what if they were vampires?” more times than I care to count.
It’s… a bunny. The whole reproductive strategy of bunnies is to pop them out real fast. Its purposes in life are to eat, crap and reproduce.
So we as decent human beings have no responsibility to minimise stress and suffering of our domestic animals? Pregnancy is, by the biological definition of stress, stressful. Wild rabbits have crappy lives, and there’s nothing we can do about it. But domestic rabbits, when kept in a secure, safe environment, are sociable, curious, engaging companions. This was not a happy rabbit. An all that is without even touching rabbit overpopulation, or their destructive, invasive nature when set loose by irresponsible owners, but I can sing that song, too. I don’t believe in animal rights. I believe in human responsibilities.
Oh, and I happen to know the difference between pets and children, thanks. Don’t tell me that treating domestic animals like the sensitive, emotional, living beings that they most certainly are makes me some sort of bleeding heart flake. It doesn’t. It makes me me, and I think it also makes me a better human being than I otherwise would be.
Phew. Anyway. Carry on.