Comments on: Pandagon Book Club: Perfect Girls, Starving Daughters

by: Elinor

Mon, 10 Mar 2008 08:16:17 +0000

Biology ultimately wins, and I think most men (certainly younger men) are biologically hard-wired to be attracted to thinner women.

Apparently Rob is a Lamarckian?

That would jibe with his whole “science is a matter of opinion” thing.

Now, is this fair to women who aren’t “perfect” through their natural gifts? Absolutely not. I completely empathize with those of you faced with these unrealistic expectations of physical perfection. At the same time, I can’t just wish it away.

I’m a very small woman, Rob. I don’t really have to watch what I eat; I stay “underweight” (according to BMI charts) without any effort. (I have to make more effort in other aspects of my appearance — alas, I am not the model of feminine perfection to which you appear to feel entitled.) I’m attracted to slender, brainy men who tease me. It would be tough for me to shake that preference; on a rational level, I don’t like being dwarfed by my partner, and on a less rational level, bigger men seldom turn me on.

The difference between us, Rob (other than the fact that I fit my own physical ideal and you don’t) is that I’m not so arrogant as to pretend my preference is biologically hard-wired or shared by the general straight female population. Other women drool over men who leave me cold, and vice versa.

You’re welcome to your own preferences, Rob, but don’t patronize women with unsupported blanket statements about what men are “hard-wired” to want. You’re not that representative, or that important.

by: Jules, Queen of Salad Dressings

Sat, 08 Mar 2008 08:35:18 +0000

Thanks for the review. I’m going to have to read the book. All the things mentioned are very familiar to me as I’ve had disordered eating. The inner brat/perfect girl split makes sense to me not only with food, but with sexual drives and also oddly, keeping a clean house.
As if being thin, pure, and tidy equals a sense of morality and eating lots, fucking lots and not giving a fig about the dishes equals something not so nice.
Funny, though how eating a good meal, having great sex, and being too involved with life to keep the house clean actually feels better right?
My goal is moderation of course, cause health is important. Eating well and keeping at least a moderately clean house are both good for general health.

by: Doctor Science, Diety of Leftover Chinese Food

Fri, 07 Mar 2008 00:32:40 +0000

Reichert, I call it “libertarian” because it accords with the actual statements of non-philophical libertarians, which are common as dirt in blogoland.

by: chingona

Wed, 05 Mar 2008 13:28:00 +0000

Mama Kate, it seems to me that the obsession with bodily perfection has developed as women have gotten more rights and freedoms and is part of the backlash against that progress, a way to perpetuate control over women in a way that is very hard to combat. Obviously all cultures have physical ideals, and I in no way want to idealize the past, but I don’t think it’s a coincidence that women in Cameroon have fewer rights and opportunities overall but aren’t obsessing about their weight. Of course, at least in Western European/American culture, the other thing that has changed is that corsets and other “support” garments have gone out the window but we’re still expected to have the figures that those garments facilitated - just “naturally” and “effortlessly.” And as I think about it as I’m writing, maybe I’m wrong - foot binding, those women with the neck rings, corsets, etc. - but I’m still going to post just to put this out there. At least in our culture, I think there is a connection between the current obsession and anxiety about changing gender roles, and it sounds like Courtney refers to that (though I haven’t read the book).

by: Reichart

Wed, 05 Mar 2008 12:35:31 +0000

Doc, it’s pretty absurd to call that the ‘libertarian’ position. What you just laid out is the polar opposite of, e.g, Hayek’s position.

by: Doctor Science, Diety of Leftover Chinese Food

Wed, 05 Mar 2008 09:50:52 +0000

I’m really glad that liberalrob joined this discussion, because he very clearly exhibits the mindset of a significant part of the population. It’s one I usually think of as libertarian, but it’s pretty common in many conservatives, too:

1. your own mental & emotional states are transparent, known by inspection.

2. what goes on in your mind is either the result of conscious choice or of “hard-wired”, genetically-determined instincts.

3. culture and society, if they exist at all (see Margaret Thatcher) are the results of both conscious human choice and hard-wired instinct, but nothing else.

There’s no role for the unconscious, but also no role for habit or even learning. “Evolution” is invoked as a kind of hand-wavy magic spell, a secular version of the proof-texting used by Christian fundamentalists.

by: Mama Kate

Wed, 05 Mar 2008 06:02:16 +0000

I’ve been living in Cameroon for the past couple of years and had previously spent a lot of time abroad in Africa since graduating from college. I’m raising my 3-year-old daughter here but will soon be returning to the US for grad school. (Just found out about being admitted - YEAH!) So far, my little one has been almost completely shielded from the materialistic, looks-are-everything culture of the US and has instead been surrounded by women who, no matter what their size, take great pride in their feminine looks. It has always fascinated me that women here, who are oppressed in so many ways, are not under the same pressure as we in the US to confirm to a certain beauty standard. Even I (a fairly big women) feel better about my own looks when I’m over here.

I know when we go back to the US, I’m going to need to make a very conscious effort not to revert to using self-effacing language or obsessive habits because I don’t want my daughter exposed to that. But I know as soon as she starts going to school, the comparisons with other girls will start. It scares me. I don’t want her to go through the horrible time I had from age 10 to about 22 (and beyond). But the shopping culture and the sex-saturated media - and this definitely includes kids’ shows and cartoons - are going to affect her. How am I going to avoid this?

by: Mama Kate

Wed, 05 Mar 2008 05:44:52 +0000

by: bluebonnet

Tue, 04 Mar 2008 23:17:42 +0000

{One way to get around that problem and be a more body-listening eater is to avoid sweets, of course. Which we probably should do anyway, since refined sugar is the devil.}

Maybr one way. But ive heard the opposite: that it’s good to eat something sweet after a mwal so your body knows you are done, & also because it’s fucking tasty to eat something sweet :p
Eating a piece of fruit for example is a great way to end a meal & aid digestion, too. Even so, a cookie or two wont kill you if you stay active.

May i also say: work on the perfectionism; the all-or-none thinking, too. That is the real cause of unhealthy eating habits & not necessarily all these rules & outward restrictions… Some people really cling to rules like they were gold bars

by: bluebonnet

Tue, 04 Mar 2008 23:11:21 +0000

{It’s frustrating as hell, because I think a lot of men who do vocally set these impossible standards eventually do fall in love with a flawed woman who is human and has a little cellulite or perhaps a bad day where her wit sparkles a little duller. But how many have the wisdom to learn their lesson and how many will keep talking up a big game fantasy they think is real, while hurting the real life women they have and love and are unintentionally tearing down with these fantasy women-driven standards}

And also cant handle the fact that a woman ages & her body changes, then they cant get it upfor her anymore. Becuase really, she’s never really been more than a thing to him –an image to get wood over. Not really a human being with imperfections, who ages, who still needs comfort & love…how many liberalbobs spend their lives, after a brief number of years, jerking off to porn instead of a real woman or give it up altogether, becuase theyve never graduated to a level of humanity that’s past their own infantile & narcissistic wants?
Men have made themselves sociopathic; where only they are real in this life. Only they are completely real.