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	<title>Comments on: Surely, they can keep getting younger</title>
	<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/03/01/6824/</link>
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	<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 21:02:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Hekie</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/03/01/6824/#comment-496566</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 23:57:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/03/01/6824/#comment-496566</guid>
					<description>All this talk of Girl Scouts is what makes me really glad that my sister and I were the first two of three girls initiated to the local Cub troop when they opened it up to girls finally (this would have been around 1991).  Not because &quot;omg yay, we get to be honourary boys!&quot; but because my &quot;tomboy&quot; sister hadn't liked Brownies/Girl Guides much and Cubs ended up being awesome in the adventure sense.  In the US do they still have the two organisations segregated by sex or in parts of the country are they not?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>All this talk of Girl Scouts is what makes me really glad that my sister and I were the first two of three girls initiated to the local Cub troop when they opened it up to girls finally (this would have been around 1991).  Not because &#8220;omg yay, we get to be honourary boys!&#8221; but because my &#8220;tomboy&#8221; sister hadn&#8217;t liked Brownies/Girl Guides much and Cubs ended up being awesome in the adventure sense.  In the US do they still have the two organisations segregated by sex or in parts of the country are they not?
</p>
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		<title>by: Ms Kate</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/03/01/6824/#comment-496234</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:01:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/03/01/6824/#comment-496234</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;Because traditional tomboys will buy boy’s/men’s clothes when they can’t find what they want in the girl’s/women’s section, advertisers and marketers don’t spend much time courting them. And the amount of girlie or metro stuff for young boys is almost totally nonexistent.&lt;/i&gt;

My son hangs out with a couple of young ladies who buy all their clothing from the boy's section.

Their mothers couldn't be happier about it, either - not because it is &quot;better&quot; per se, but because a lot of clothing that comes in their daughters' sizes are absolutely inappropriate for a 12 year old.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Because traditional tomboys will buy boy’s/men’s clothes when they can’t find what they want in the girl’s/women’s section, advertisers and marketers don’t spend much time courting them. And the amount of girlie or metro stuff for young boys is almost totally nonexistent.</i></p>
	<p>My son hangs out with a couple of young ladies who buy all their clothing from the boy&#8217;s section.</p>
	<p>Their mothers couldn&#8217;t be happier about it, either - not because it is &#8220;better&#8221; per se, but because a lot of clothing that comes in their daughters&#8217; sizes are absolutely inappropriate for a 12 year old.
</p>
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		<title>by: JayBat</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/03/01/6824/#comment-496175</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 19:04:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/03/01/6824/#comment-496175</guid>
					<description>Caroline (#12):
&lt;i&gt;My brother was learning awesome wilderness camping and survival skills in Boy Scouts, and I was learning about how to be decorative for guys?&lt;/i&gt;

Caroline, don't sweat it. The &quot;awesome skills&quot; your brother was learning mostly comprised: a) how to light a campfire really fast using a 1-gallon can of gasoline, b) lighting farts.

Trust me, you didn't miss much. :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Caroline (#12):<br />
<i>My brother was learning awesome wilderness camping and survival skills in Boy Scouts, and I was learning about how to be decorative for guys?</i></p>
	<p>Caroline, don&#8217;t sweat it. The &#8220;awesome skills&#8221; your brother was learning mostly comprised: a) how to light a campfire really fast using a 1-gallon can of gasoline, b) lighting farts.</p>
	<p>Trust me, you didn&#8217;t miss much. <img src='http://pandagon.blogsome.com/wp-images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />
</p>
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		<title>by: paul</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/03/01/6824/#comment-495885</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 19:39:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/03/01/6824/#comment-495885</guid>
					<description>For girl scouts (or boy scouts for that matter) to be about camping and survival skills and suchlike, you'd need most people in the country to be living in a very different set of locations. How far is the average kid from a city park, much less the kind of place where one could &quot;safely&quot; stay out for a couple days in a tent? (When I think how much time I spent as a preteen out in the local park, it's hard for my grown-up perv-behind-every-tree sensibilities to comprehend.)

The pastoral/wilderness myth behind scouting back then seems to have been replaced by a different kind of myth, but then the whole makeup of scouting seems to have changed (at least from what it was in my neck of the woods). My troop was pretty much working-class, a way to get the kids out of the house and get them some interesting experiences they wouldn't otherwise have access to. Now most of the stuff I read or hear about seems to peg it as ways for urban/suburban professionals to compete via their kids while indoctrinating them in the way they should live and work later in life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>For girl scouts (or boy scouts for that matter) to be about camping and survival skills and suchlike, you&#8217;d need most people in the country to be living in a very different set of locations. How far is the average kid from a city park, much less the kind of place where one could &#8220;safely&#8221; stay out for a couple days in a tent? (When I think how much time I spent as a preteen out in the local park, it&#8217;s hard for my grown-up perv-behind-every-tree sensibilities to comprehend.)</p>
	<p>The pastoral/wilderness myth behind scouting back then seems to have been replaced by a different kind of myth, but then the whole makeup of scouting seems to have changed (at least from what it was in my neck of the woods). My troop was pretty much working-class, a way to get the kids out of the house and get them some interesting experiences they wouldn&#8217;t otherwise have access to. Now most of the stuff I read or hear about seems to peg it as ways for urban/suburban professionals to compete via their kids while indoctrinating them in the way they should live and work later in life.
</p>
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		<title>by: Ugly In Pink</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/03/01/6824/#comment-495870</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 17:58:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/03/01/6824/#comment-495870</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;I find it to feed the anti-woman culture to describe “spoiling yourself” strictly as things done to be aesthetically pleasing to others.&amp;gt;/i&amp;gt;

This was one of the ideas that started me really thinking about feminism.&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I find it to feed the anti-woman culture to describe “spoiling yourself” strictly as things done to be aesthetically pleasing to others.&gt;/i&gt;</p>
	<p>This was one of the ideas that started me really thinking about feminism.</i>
</p>
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		<title>by: mnemosyne</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/03/01/6824/#comment-495860</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 17:32:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/03/01/6824/#comment-495860</guid>
					<description>I present to all of you &lt;a href=&quot;http://disneyshopping.go.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/DSIProductDisplay?catalogId=10002&amp;amp;storeId=10051&amp;amp;productId=1217201&amp;amp;langId=-1&amp;amp;categoryId=11798&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the Cinderella remote-controlled car.&lt;/a&gt;

And you can have your &lt;i&gt;choice&lt;/i&gt; of Princesses!  They also have Belle, Sleeping Beauty, Ariel, and Jasmine cars.

(I've also seen the full-size cars, but I can't find them at the moment.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I present to all of you <a href="http://disneyshopping.go.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/DSIProductDisplay?catalogId=10002&amp;storeId=10051&amp;productId=1217201&amp;langId=-1&amp;categoryId=11798" rel="nofollow">the Cinderella remote-controlled car.</a></p>
	<p>And you can have your <i>choice</i> of Princesses!  They also have Belle, Sleeping Beauty, Ariel, and Jasmine cars.</p>
	<p>(I&#8217;ve also seen the full-size cars, but I can&#8217;t find them at the moment.)
</p>
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		<title>by: ks, queen mother of the peach pie</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/03/01/6824/#comment-495841</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 16:12:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/03/01/6824/#comment-495841</guid>
					<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I’m glad I’m not the only one who ditched Girl Scouts because we never did a lot of cool survival stuff. I think some of it depends on the troop leader reaching for more active curricula, because I can remember a few instances of archery and canoing.&lt;/blockquote&gt; 

I really do think it depends on the troop leader and/or the culture of the area you're from.  Because I loved Girl Scouts--I was in it from 1st grade to high school graduation and then involved with the troop back home when I was in college.  Granted, I have always been pretty girlie and feminine, but we didn't do much of that stuff at all in scouts.  We did the cookie sales and service stuff (visiting nursing homes, handing out government cheese--not kidding--to poor people and the elderly, etc.), but we also did a lot of camping/canoing/archery/horseback riding/other outdoor stuff, along with learning things like basic cooking and sewing.  There was some of the hair/makeup/crafts, but I remember it being rare--although we did have an overnight quilting bee and raffled off the quilt as a fundraiser one year.  By junior high/high school, we did things like take overnight trips to radio stations, newspaper offices, factories, etc., to see how those places worked.  We went to King's Island and to COSI in Columbus one weekend every year for their Camp-In, that involved cool science activities and once we got too old to be participants, we went as volunteers to help with the programs for the younger girls.  And all this was in a very small town in southern WV.  I can't even imagine that a troop in a more populated area with more access to cooler stuff wouldn't have taken advantage of it.

But more on topic, girlie as I was, I would have probably been bored to death with a mani/pedi party as a kid too.  Although I can totally see my five year old niece being in to it (and driving my complete tomboy sister crazy about it as well).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<blockquote><p>I’m glad I’m not the only one who ditched Girl Scouts because we never did a lot of cool survival stuff. I think some of it depends on the troop leader reaching for more active curricula, because I can remember a few instances of archery and canoing.</p></blockquote>
	<p>I really do think it depends on the troop leader and/or the culture of the area you&#8217;re from.  Because I loved Girl Scouts&#8211;I was in it from 1st grade to high school graduation and then involved with the troop back home when I was in college.  Granted, I have always been pretty girlie and feminine, but we didn&#8217;t do much of that stuff at all in scouts.  We did the cookie sales and service stuff (visiting nursing homes, handing out government cheese&#8211;not kidding&#8211;to poor people and the elderly, etc.), but we also did a lot of camping/canoing/archery/horseback riding/other outdoor stuff, along with learning things like basic cooking and sewing.  There was some of the hair/makeup/crafts, but I remember it being rare&#8211;although we did have an overnight quilting bee and raffled off the quilt as a fundraiser one year.  By junior high/high school, we did things like take overnight trips to radio stations, newspaper offices, factories, etc., to see how those places worked.  We went to King&#8217;s Island and to COSI in Columbus one weekend every year for their Camp-In, that involved cool science activities and once we got too old to be participants, we went as volunteers to help with the programs for the younger girls.  And all this was in a very small town in southern WV.  I can&#8217;t even imagine that a troop in a more populated area with more access to cooler stuff wouldn&#8217;t have taken advantage of it.</p>
	<p>But more on topic, girlie as I was, I would have probably been bored to death with a mani/pedi party as a kid too.  Although I can totally see my five year old niece being in to it (and driving my complete tomboy sister crazy about it as well).
</p>
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		<title>by: Godless Heathen</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/03/01/6824/#comment-495836</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 15:53:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/03/01/6824/#comment-495836</guid>
					<description>I just realized something, none of the kids in my family (or extended family) would let a stranger cut their hair until about age 10.  (Thank goodness for Auntie Hairdresser.)  Maybe we're all phobic nut cases, but I can't help but imagine 6-9 year olds having screaming fits over strangers touching them.  You know that tantrum that starts with &quot;No, no, no&quot; and ends in piercing shrieks and crying?  Probably puts a damper on a mini-pedi party quickly.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who ditched Girl Scouts because we never did a lot of cool survival stuff.  I think some of it depends on the troop leader reaching for more active curricula, because I can remember a few instances of archery and canoing.  We mostly had filler meetings that involved sewing and &quot;grooming&quot; in between cookie selling seasons.  (Is it just me or have those damn cookies pretty much obliterated the rest of the scouting experience?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I just realized something, none of the kids in my family (or extended family) would let a stranger cut their hair until about age 10.  (Thank goodness for Auntie Hairdresser.)  Maybe we&#8217;re all phobic nut cases, but I can&#8217;t help but imagine 6-9 year olds having screaming fits over strangers touching them.  You know that tantrum that starts with &#8220;No, no, no&#8221; and ends in piercing shrieks and crying?  Probably puts a damper on a mini-pedi party quickly.</p>
	<p>I&#8217;m glad I&#8217;m not the only one who ditched Girl Scouts because we never did a lot of cool survival stuff.  I think some of it depends on the troop leader reaching for more active curricula, because I can remember a few instances of archery and canoing.  We mostly had filler meetings that involved sewing and &#8220;grooming&#8221; in between cookie selling seasons.  (Is it just me or have those damn cookies pretty much obliterated the rest of the scouting experience?)
</p>
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		<title>by: Thena, Sultana of Stale Raisin Bread</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/03/01/6824/#comment-495791</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 13:33:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/03/01/6824/#comment-495791</guid>
					<description>I quit girl scouts for the same kinds of reasons people describe above - not enough setting things on fire, getting dirty, etc and too much Mary Kay Party.  

I'm still annoyed about that.  

And don't get me started about pink.  It's a lovely color, I wear it pretty regularly myself (because it's more flattering on me than, say, orange or avocado green) but it's not the only color in my closet, and it drives be absolutely batshit crazy that when there's a product designed for kids, it invariably comes in three or four colors and Pink/Purple/White with Sparkles and Flowers/Butterflies FOR THE GIRLS.  

Gah.

If I ever have daughters, this is going to make me crazy.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I quit girl scouts for the same kinds of reasons people describe above - not enough setting things on fire, getting dirty, etc and too much Mary Kay Party.  </p>
	<p>I&#8217;m still annoyed about that.  </p>
	<p>And don&#8217;t get me started about pink.  It&#8217;s a lovely color, I wear it pretty regularly myself (because it&#8217;s more flattering on me than, say, orange or avocado green) but it&#8217;s not the only color in my closet, and it drives be absolutely batshit crazy that when there&#8217;s a product designed for kids, it invariably comes in three or four colors and Pink/Purple/White with Sparkles and Flowers/Butterflies FOR THE GIRLS.  </p>
	<p>Gah.</p>
	<p>If I ever have daughters, this is going to make me crazy.
</p>
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		<title>by: napthia9</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/03/01/6824/#comment-495786</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 13:07:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/03/01/6824/#comment-495786</guid>
					<description>Jon- that's not true for this tomboy. The amount of &quot;tomboy&quot; stuff compared to &quot;girlie&quot; stuff is pitifully small. They're nowheres near as heavily marketed towards young girls as the princessy things are. Because traditional tomboys will buy boy's/men's clothes when they can't find what they want in the girl's/women's section, advertisers and marketers don't spend much time courting them. And the amount of girlie or metro stuff for young boys is almost totally nonexistent. (And that phenomena is just as much a result of the push for Girlieness as the absence of a significant tomboy marketing push is.)

Finally, a lot of the traditional tomboy activities and clothes have become the norm for women and girls everywhere. That's a great thing! But a lot of the marketing aimed at female consumers is still made to be girlie. When marketers think about getting female consumers, they turn shit pink or slap some meaningless &quot;Girl Power!&quot; slogan on it instead of treating female consumers as seriously as their male counterparts. (See gaming magazine Cerise for a good example of what real female gamers care about, and then compare it with industry attempts to reach female gamers.) And baby-doll tees are nice, but they're often glittered up more than other tees, or used in the advertisements in order to sell more because of their sex appeal, while the sex appeal (and potential selling power) of an attractive male t-shirt model goes overlooked.

Tomboys might be a profitable market, but they are not cash cows the way that the princess/girlie girls are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Jon- that&#8217;s not true for this tomboy. The amount of &#8220;tomboy&#8221; stuff compared to &#8220;girlie&#8221; stuff is pitifully small. They&#8217;re nowheres near as heavily marketed towards young girls as the princessy things are. Because traditional tomboys will buy boy&#8217;s/men&#8217;s clothes when they can&#8217;t find what they want in the girl&#8217;s/women&#8217;s section, advertisers and marketers don&#8217;t spend much time courting them. And the amount of girlie or metro stuff for young boys is almost totally nonexistent. (And that phenomena is just as much a result of the push for Girlieness as the absence of a significant tomboy marketing push is.)</p>
	<p>Finally, a lot of the traditional tomboy activities and clothes have become the norm for women and girls everywhere. That&#8217;s a great thing! But a lot of the marketing aimed at female consumers is still made to be girlie. When marketers think about getting female consumers, they turn shit pink or slap some meaningless &#8220;Girl Power!&#8221; slogan on it instead of treating female consumers as seriously as their male counterparts. (See gaming magazine Cerise for a good example of what real female gamers care about, and then compare it with industry attempts to reach female gamers.) And baby-doll tees are nice, but they&#8217;re often glittered up more than other tees, or used in the advertisements in order to sell more because of their sex appeal, while the sex appeal (and potential selling power) of an attractive male t-shirt model goes overlooked.</p>
	<p>Tomboys might be a profitable market, but they are not cash cows the way that the princess/girlie girls are.
</p>
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