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	<title>Comments on: Enough on the Democrats, let&#8217;s talk about Huckabee</title>
	<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/02/10/enough-on-the-democrats-lets-talk-about-huckabee/</link>
	<description>Just another WordPress weblog</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 18:57:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Mold</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/02/10/enough-on-the-democrats-lets-talk-about-huckabee/#comment-490461</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 21:49:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/02/10/enough-on-the-democrats-lets-talk-about-huckabee/#comment-490461</guid>
					<description>I live in whitest Dumbf**kistan and I am often told that $100,000  per year is rich.  For this area it might be.  

For statistical and academic purposes this is incorrect.  The above income is more truly termed middle class.  We in 'Merica tend to lump everyone between despairing poor and grotesquely rich into the middle class.   I try to use definitive texts for the assertion of class as a function of both wealth and choices(opportunities).   The French, English, German and American tomes I have read all seem to agree on this.  That is I use what I see the science holds to be the best definition at this time.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I live in whitest Dumbf**kistan and I am often told that $100,000  per year is rich.  For this area it might be.  </p>
	<p>For statistical and academic purposes this is incorrect.  The above income is more truly termed middle class.  We in &#8216;Merica tend to lump everyone between despairing poor and grotesquely rich into the middle class.   I try to use definitive texts for the assertion of class as a function of both wealth and choices(opportunities).   The French, English, German and American tomes I have read all seem to agree on this.  That is I use what I see the science holds to be the best definition at this time.
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		<title>by: Ampersand</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/02/10/enough-on-the-democrats-lets-talk-about-huckabee/#comment-490371</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 14:50:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/02/10/enough-on-the-democrats-lets-talk-about-huckabee/#comment-490371</guid>
					<description>Amanda, with all due respect, I think it's probably a mistake to use &quot;ayatollah&quot; as a word for &quot;fascist misogynistic religious leader.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Amanda, with all due respect, I think it&#8217;s probably a mistake to use &#8220;ayatollah&#8221; as a word for &#8220;fascist misogynistic religious leader.&#8221;
</p>
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		<title>by: inge</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/02/10/enough-on-the-democrats-lets-talk-about-huckabee/#comment-490300</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 12:39:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/02/10/enough-on-the-democrats-lets-talk-about-huckabee/#comment-490300</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;My question then is this—considering that the fear that's dwelled upon is mortality and that's a pretty universal fear, why do the fundies get their hooks on people in some times and places and not others?&lt;/i&gt;

Just my hypothesis: 

Dying is the ultimate loss of control over one's life, and all the old songs go into loving detail about how power and privilege won't save you. 

Now, most people that live and ever have lived have been quite aware that shit happens, and death has often be regarded as &quot;at least I'm done with the shit now&quot;. 

But people who are privileged enough to avoid most of the common flavours of shit feel outraged that death (and a lot of other things, really, and most of them in some way physical) escapes their control, and they don't feel like leaving the party, except at their own terms. Which is why the choose a cult which promises them their own terms. 

You get apocalyptic cults whereever there is change and the loss of certainties. You get this specific flavour by adding privilege to the mix.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>My question then is this—considering that the fear that&#8217;s dwelled upon is mortality and that&#8217;s a pretty universal fear, why do the fundies get their hooks on people in some times and places and not others?</i></p>
	<p>Just my hypothesis: </p>
	<p>Dying is the ultimate loss of control over one&#8217;s life, and all the old songs go into loving detail about how power and privilege won&#8217;t save you. </p>
	<p>Now, most people that live and ever have lived have been quite aware that shit happens, and death has often be regarded as &#8220;at least I&#8217;m done with the shit now&#8221;. </p>
	<p>But people who are privileged enough to avoid most of the common flavours of shit feel outraged that death (and a lot of other things, really, and most of them in some way physical) escapes their control, and they don&#8217;t feel like leaving the party, except at their own terms. Which is why the choose a cult which promises them their own terms. </p>
	<p>You get apocalyptic cults whereever there is change and the loss of certainties. You get this specific flavour by adding privilege to the mix.
</p>
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		<title>by: Elinor</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/02/10/enough-on-the-democrats-lets-talk-about-huckabee/#comment-490181</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 23:19:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/02/10/enough-on-the-democrats-lets-talk-about-huckabee/#comment-490181</guid>
					<description>I guess my question would be whether the &quot;academic standard&quot; for middle-classness is useful in this context.  

I'd also question whether the evangelical vs. fundamentalist distinction is all that useful these days, especially with regard to voting behaviour.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I guess my question would be whether the &#8220;academic standard&#8221; for middle-classness is useful in this context.  </p>
	<p>I&#8217;d also question whether the evangelical vs. fundamentalist distinction is all that useful these days, especially with regard to voting behaviour.
</p>
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		<title>by: exholt</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/02/10/enough-on-the-democrats-lets-talk-about-huckabee/#comment-490163</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 21:43:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/02/10/enough-on-the-democrats-lets-talk-about-huckabee/#comment-490163</guid>
					<description>Mold,

I was not trying to call everyone middle class.  My argument was that the definition you used is skewed too much towards people who would be more accurately termed upper/upper-middle class.  

I don't know where you live, but someone earning enough to enjoy European vacations, wine, and BMWs would be more accurately described as upper class....or at the very least...upper-middle class, not middle class.  

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Mold,</p>
	<p>I was not trying to call everyone middle class.  My argument was that the definition you used is skewed too much towards people who would be more accurately termed upper/upper-middle class.  </p>
	<p>I don&#8217;t know where you live, but someone earning enough to enjoy European vacations, wine, and BMWs would be more accurately described as upper class&#8230;.or at the very least&#8230;upper-middle class, not middle class.
</p>
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		<title>by: Mold</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/02/10/enough-on-the-democrats-lets-talk-about-huckabee/#comment-490142</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 20:35:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/02/10/enough-on-the-democrats-lets-talk-about-huckabee/#comment-490142</guid>
					<description>You follow the 'Merican habit of calling everyone middle class.  I used easily understood demarcations as to wealth and choice.  

Upper class goes into what you might term &quot;rich&quot;.  Those whose income depends on trusts, investments, and non-wage income.  

To make it easy, assume that a MD is middle class if they are a general practitioner.    This would give you a better view of what is truly middle class as opposed to what is working class with benefits.  

I try to use the European and American academic standard for middle class.  This derived from the fields of sociology and economics.  So, it is not to demean your sense of self but to use what scientists claim are the actual ranges.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>You follow the &#8216;Merican habit of calling everyone middle class.  I used easily understood demarcations as to wealth and choice.  </p>
	<p>Upper class goes into what you might term &#8220;rich&#8221;.  Those whose income depends on trusts, investments, and non-wage income.  </p>
	<p>To make it easy, assume that a MD is middle class if they are a general practitioner.    This would give you a better view of what is truly middle class as opposed to what is working class with benefits.  </p>
	<p>I try to use the European and American academic standard for middle class.  This derived from the fields of sociology and economics.  So, it is not to demean your sense of self but to use what scientists claim are the actual ranges.
</p>
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		<title>by: exholt</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/02/10/enough-on-the-democrats-lets-talk-about-huckabee/#comment-490128</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 19:32:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/02/10/enough-on-the-democrats-lets-talk-about-huckabee/#comment-490128</guid>
					<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Others have written books on how the MC will pick European or foreign travel over Disneyworld, wines instead of beer, BMW as opposed to Ford. 

Mold -

Um…your definition of the middle class (European vacations, wine, BMWs) sounds distinctly upper-class to me. I grew up quite firmly middle-class in rural Indiana, and I can guarantee you we weren’t driving BMWs or going on foreign vacations. 
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Mold, 

I have to agree with bibliothecaire as European vacations, wine, and BMWs sound like something only the upper/upper-middle class families living in the most expensive section of the Upper East Side could afford.  You may as well consider anyone owning property in the East Hamptons of Long Island as middle class if we're to use that rubric (Ha!).  

Middle class folks I knew tend to vacation in Disney World or travel around the states.  

Anyone lower than the middle-class rarely had the fiscal means to vacation further than a two hour drive outside of NYC....assuming, of course that their jobs allow enough vacation time to allow for such leisurely activities.  Most in the lower-middle/working class are struggling just to get by on basic necessities.....vacations beyond the immediate tri-state area rarely factored in their lives.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<blockquote><p>Others have written books on how the MC will pick European or foreign travel over Disneyworld, wines instead of beer, BMW as opposed to Ford. </p>
	<p>Mold -</p>
	<p>Um…your definition of the middle class (European vacations, wine, BMWs) sounds distinctly upper-class to me. I grew up quite firmly middle-class in rural Indiana, and I can guarantee you we weren’t driving BMWs or going on foreign vacations.
</p></blockquote>
	<p>Mold, </p>
	<p>I have to agree with bibliothecaire as European vacations, wine, and BMWs sound like something only the upper/upper-middle class families living in the most expensive section of the Upper East Side could afford.  You may as well consider anyone owning property in the East Hamptons of Long Island as middle class if we&#8217;re to use that rubric (Ha!).  </p>
	<p>Middle class folks I knew tend to vacation in Disney World or travel around the states.  </p>
	<p>Anyone lower than the middle-class rarely had the fiscal means to vacation further than a two hour drive outside of NYC&#8230;.assuming, of course that their jobs allow enough vacation time to allow for such leisurely activities.  Most in the lower-middle/working class are struggling just to get by on basic necessities&#8230;..vacations beyond the immediate tri-state area rarely factored in their lives.
</p>
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		<title>by: bibliothecaire</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/02/10/enough-on-the-democrats-lets-talk-about-huckabee/#comment-490121</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 18:31:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/02/10/enough-on-the-democrats-lets-talk-about-huckabee/#comment-490121</guid>
					<description>Mold - 

Um...your definition of the middle class (European vacations, wine, BMWs) sounds distinctly upper-class to me.  I grew up quite firmly middle-class in rural Indiana, and I can guarantee you we weren't driving BMWs or going on foreign vacations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Mold - </p>
	<p>Um&#8230;your definition of the middle class (European vacations, wine, BMWs) sounds distinctly upper-class to me.  I grew up quite firmly middle-class in rural Indiana, and I can guarantee you we weren&#8217;t driving BMWs or going on foreign vacations.
</p>
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		<title>by: Mold</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/02/10/enough-on-the-democrats-lets-talk-about-huckabee/#comment-490058</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 15:00:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/02/10/enough-on-the-democrats-lets-talk-about-huckabee/#comment-490058</guid>
					<description>Elinor,

Most fundies seem to have the working-class incomes and atitudes.  The middle class is not simply a matter of getting a job in a union plant or being appointed to a government position.  There are also defining choices that separate the middle from the working classes.  

Others have written books on how the MC will pick European or foreign travel over Disneyworld, wines instead of beer, BMW as opposed to Ford.  

You may be confusing fudies with evangels, some of whom are part of the middle class.  Agonist has a lovely blog on going to Langley for a position with the CIA and finding the parking lot filled with cars bearing PTL bumper stickers.  

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Elinor,</p>
	<p>Most fundies seem to have the working-class incomes and atitudes.  The middle class is not simply a matter of getting a job in a union plant or being appointed to a government position.  There are also defining choices that separate the middle from the working classes.  </p>
	<p>Others have written books on how the MC will pick European or foreign travel over Disneyworld, wines instead of beer, BMW as opposed to Ford.  </p>
	<p>You may be confusing fudies with evangels, some of whom are part of the middle class.  Agonist has a lovely blog on going to Langley for a position with the CIA and finding the parking lot filled with cars bearing PTL bumper stickers.
</p>
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		<title>by: Cassie</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/02/10/enough-on-the-democrats-lets-talk-about-huckabee/#comment-490037</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 14:30:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/02/10/enough-on-the-democrats-lets-talk-about-huckabee/#comment-490037</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;Freedom can be very scary for a lot of people. With greater freedom comes the possibility for greater failure. Never underestimate the power of that fear. Never underestimate the appeal of something that offers to take away those fears and replace them with easy answers.&lt;/i&gt;

I (luckily) don't have much experience with fundamentalists, but I've been getting involved in the fat acceptance movement, and something strikes me about this.  Tell a co-worker that you're not dieting because you like your body the way it is, flaws and all, and she looks at you like you just sprouted a few more heads.  For a lot of people, it's a lot easier to take all of you negative traits and put them all on something else - I would be outgoing and fun and smart and popular, but I can't because I'm fat.  That way, you don't have to deal with the fact that you're quiet and reserved &lt;i&gt;because that's who you are&lt;/i&gt;.   I get the feeling that, for fundamentalists, this is taken to a whole other level.  If you can say the world isn't perfect because gay men have  sex and women are doctors and people aren't listening to me, you don't have to deal with accepting the fact that the world isn't perfect, period.  So I guess it is about fear of freedom, of responsibilty, of handling the negatives without a crutch.  But I think this is more wide-spread than just fundamentalists, and I must admit, I'm not sure that everyone can get over it.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Freedom can be very scary for a lot of people. With greater freedom comes the possibility for greater failure. Never underestimate the power of that fear. Never underestimate the appeal of something that offers to take away those fears and replace them with easy answers.</i></p>
	<p>I (luckily) don&#8217;t have much experience with fundamentalists, but I&#8217;ve been getting involved in the fat acceptance movement, and something strikes me about this.  Tell a co-worker that you&#8217;re not dieting because you like your body the way it is, flaws and all, and she looks at you like you just sprouted a few more heads.  For a lot of people, it&#8217;s a lot easier to take all of you negative traits and put them all on something else - I would be outgoing and fun and smart and popular, but I can&#8217;t because I&#8217;m fat.  That way, you don&#8217;t have to deal with the fact that you&#8217;re quiet and reserved <i>because that&#8217;s who you are</i>.   I get the feeling that, for fundamentalists, this is taken to a whole other level.  If you can say the world isn&#8217;t perfect because gay men have  sex and women are doctors and people aren&#8217;t listening to me, you don&#8217;t have to deal with accepting the fact that the world isn&#8217;t perfect, period.  So I guess it is about fear of freedom, of responsibilty, of handling the negatives without a crutch.  But I think this is more wide-spread than just fundamentalists, and I must admit, I&#8217;m not sure that everyone can get over it.
</p>
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