* Men are shallow and superficial too

“The thing about Nice Guys(tm) is they only count gorgeous women when they think about “women” as a whole. They don’t even realize that shy, maybe dorky women who don’t look like models even exist.”

I love how in these converations ripping on the “nice guys”…”TM”, they always mention all these nice but supposedly less-than-hot women who are pining over the alleged whiners but who those guys supposedly wont bother with because they are only pining over the perfect “10″.

I think I know where these women are. They’re at the same place where theyre giving out all those wonderful jobs that the panhandlers and welfare recepients would take, if they were not so damn lazy.

The myth I see implied is:

“If a man is unable to get a woman to enter a sexual/romatic relationship with him, then he somehow doesnt deserve it. The reason MUST be to due a moral failure/character flaw on part of the man. Either he’s an asshole, thinks hes entitled, a whiner, or refuses/fails to truly understand or relate to women as human beings. Or perhaps he has ridiculous standards and only wants to date women with model looks. Or he’s just not trying hard enough. Or some variations of these moral failings. Either way, he is unworthy not only of sex, but of sympathy as well”

Of course this results in a lot of “losers” having salt rubbed in their wounds, the biggest sufferers being the shy, meek, “sweet” guy who aside from having to be denied the sweet fruit of eros, must also then be horrendously demonized should he dare lament his fate.

Are women that blind to realize and own up to their own shallowness and superficiality*?

Can’t the “nice guy who can’t get laid” be JUST THAT?!

The myth I see implied is:

“If a man is unable to get a woman to enter a sexual/romatic relationship with him, then he somehow doesnt deserve it. The reason MUST be to due a moral failure/character flaw on part of the man. Either he’s an asshole, thinks hes entitled, a whiner, or refuses/fails to truly understand or relate to women as human beings. Or perhaps he has ridiculous standards and only wants to date women with model looks. Or he’s just not trying hard enough. Or some variations of these moral failings. Either way, he is unworthy not only of sex, but of sympathy as well”

Of course this results in a lot of “losers” having salt rubbed in their wounds, the biggest sufferers being the shy, meek, “sweet” guy who aside from having to be denied the sweet fruit of eros, must also then be horrendously demonized should he dare lament his fate.

Are women that blind to realize and own up to their own shallowness and superficiality*?

Can’t the “nice guy who can’t get laid” be JUST THAT?!

Nice Guy(r) is also a hate term, and should go in the box labelled ‘use with care’.

Still, a naive jerk typing in ‘Nice Guy’ into Google after their first rejection might learn a thing, and may grow into a decent chap. We can only hope.

It looks like the thread is starting to come to a close, so we’ll have to agree to disagree on some of the specifics.

But I think we agree on quite a bit actually. I think what you’re saying (correct me if I’m wrong) is that being a good person (as opposed to a NiceGuy) is a positive attribute, and one that potential mates generally consider attractive. I agree with you 100% on that. Also, you’re definitely right when you emphasize that women in relationships with Niceguys find it very miserable (and of course viceaversa with guys and Nicegirls, and also with gay and lesbian couples). So, on a general level, yes, these things are extremely influential in making or breaking a relationship.

My point all along has been, that you can’t make assumptions about every person who is single. Being a good person is always a positive attribute, and yet, people are complex, circumstances are complex (as you admitted with that whole external/internal thing), so to say being truly nice is a guaranteed way to get dates is not accurate. Does it help? Yes, absolutely. It is not, however, a guarantee.

Ladies: there are friends and friends. Unless a guy is just like a brother to you, kindly do not confide your relationship problems in him. Save it for your girlfriends. Because a guy hearing a problem will first wonder why you are telling him this, and then try to solve it (this is not a cliche). Because, why else would you tell him if you didn’t want his help? And the easiest way for a guy to solve your relationship problems is to replace the guy you’re having the problems with. Especially if he’s attracted to you. This works with women too, as the link points out: Coincidentally, this tactic [complaining about a relationship problem] can sometimes score him a sympathy fuck if he’s got a backup girl to run to.

Now, you might just be wanting some insight into the male mind. Tell the guy this up front. Say, “You’re a man. Why would you do X or Y? I really like my boyfriend, but this thing he does drives me crazy.” This should work.

Although I had other issues (and probably still do), I never found myself asking “why is she with that total jerk” because, well, the boyfriend of the girl I liked was invariably someone I knew and respected. Clearly, they had known each other far longer than they knew me, and that was the reason I didn’t have a chance. After all, I Want My Beloved To Be Happy, right?

Are men in general so fucked up that it’s *really* such a huge revelation when they realize that women are people with thoughts and feelings that should be/are independent from male desires?

I think you can generalize this to some extent: Are high school boys in general so fucked up that it’s *really* such a huge revelation when they realize that other people are people with thoughts and feelings that should be/are independent from their desires?

Yes, some of them are. Most of them grow out of it. Some don’t.