“You know that you’ve made God in your own image when it turns out that He hates all of the same people you do.”

I’d say it’s bad prudential advice even if heaven and hell do exist. I completely agree that morality is a separate thing entirely, and that moral grownups do the right thing simply because it is the right thing, not because of any fear of punishment, divine or otherwise.

I’ve never understood the claim to have decided to believe something, anyway, which is why I am a believer who has no issue whatsoever with non-believers. I can’t fault someone not believing in something that makes no sense to them, especially when there is no compelling proof to the contrary.

I can, however, fault the morons who claim to believe something in the face of compelling counter-evidence, and take it even further and claim moral superiority because of their “faith” - the creationists and Biblical literalists, for example.

I have trouble wrapping my head around a Deity that would be pleased with being told “I decided to believe in you because I was afraid not to.” I can only imagine a Deity who isn’t bothered by “It didn’t make any sense to me, so I moved on with my life and did the best I knew how.”

Sure. And one of the things it says is that the KKK is not so dumb that they don’t know the difference between fruitful and barren soils; hence, they don’t recruit on college campuses in Berkley, they recruit from the churches of the south. The churches that, historically, defended black slavery on Biblical principles.

There’s NOTHING reasonable about Amanda’s assertion that fundies like fryin’ the darkies.

Except, of course, the correlation between religiosity and support for the death penalty, particularly in southern areas, combined with the inescapable fact that that death penalty is disproportionately applied to people of color.

Of course not.

So let’s see the math, Brucie. Your assertion, you defend it.

Therefore, we need to discuss y’all as a dangerous, fundmanetally flawed component of our social fabric of which the rest of us should be scared stiff.

Only if you accept all “drug use” as a fundamental danger to society. How was your morning coffee?

If we take salvation through faith to its furthest extreme, we could say that one’s morality is totally irrelevant to the hereafter — the only thing that matters is whether you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior. Sociopathic murderer and selfless humanitarian who accept Jesus Christ — both saved. Sociopathic murderer and selfless humanitarian who don’t — both damned.

Yet ultimately, all that means as far as morality goes — real, true morality, not just asking God for forgiveness — is that there is no tangible, external reward for morality: that the point of doing the right thing is to get the right thing done, not to please God in the hopes that He will reward you.

I’m fine with that, in the end. That’s what I already think as an atheist.

In this case, “accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior so you can go to heaven” is prudential advice, along the lines of “save for retirement so your retirement won’t suck” or “don’t drink too much or you’ll get a hangover,” not a moral imperative along the lines of “don’t molest children” or “help people in need.”

Now, it’s bad prudential advice, since it’s very unlikely that heaven or hell exist, but it’s not morally egregious. It’s orthogonal to morality, in a different dimension, but it’s perfectly compatible with morality as I see it.

That one makes about as much sense.

Well, Chet, I’d love to, but a) Y’ALL made the assertion that there’s a correlation. It’s up to Y’ALL to support it. b) I’d be just as successful arguing with you about black helicopters and little green aliens, which I’m sure you also believe in.

I’m happy with NO major media source, research agency, university, sociologist, or other form of social scientist on the safe side of lunatic making any such claim. And yes, the implication is that you are on the UNsafe side of lunatic.

Brucie, eh? OK . . . Chetie.

But to any reasonable person, the fact that the KKK draws its membership exclusively from fundamentality Christianity is significant and supports Marcotte’s statements above - you know, the ones you thought were so incomprehensible.

We’re talkin’ 5,000 people in this entire country. It says NOTHING about fundmantal Christians and Christianity and EVERYTHING about the KKK.

Again, should a MUCH stronger correlation between animal rights groups and “animal rights terrorism” say something significant about animal rights groups? Not in MY book. The vast majority of them are reasonable, law-abiding folks with a position that’s important to them.

There’s NOTHING reasonable about Amanda’s assertion that fundies like fryin’ the darkies.

mean, you wouldn’t be so idiotic as to assert “no statistical correlation” without actually having measured any of the statistics, right?

Of course not. How about you? Your sources thoroughly vetted? Peer reviewed? Universally accepted as statistically sound?

There’s all sort of lunacy out there. Just ‘cause someon wrote a book . . . A pair of kids made a movie called “Loose Change.” That doesn’t mean 9/11 was an inside job.

Therefore what? Again with your ridiculous conflations.

We have one extremely small, relatively insignificant group that requires Christianity for membership . . . and any fundmentalist Christian is a racist?

Who ever said anything about “any”? You’re arguing with a strawman, Brucie.

But to any reasonable person, the fact that the KKK draws its membership exclusively from fundamentality Christianity is significant and supports Marcotte’s statements above - you know, the ones you thought were so incomprehensible.

Um, one case proves your point (if your read of the facts of the case are accurate)?

Which facts do you dispute, Brucie? The nationally-televised confession to solicitation? The lack of any prosecutorial action towards David Vitter, which is a matter of public record? His public statements that he had the forgiveness of God?

Precisely which facts are you disputing, Brucie?

However, I CAN observe and research and my observations indicate NO statistically significant correlation between racism and Christianity.

Really? Show your math, Bruce. Precisely what was the correlative value you determined? What was the size of your sample? What testing model did you use?

I mean, you wouldn’t be so idiotic as to assert “no statistical correlation” without actually having measured any of the statistics, right?

I think a lot of us would like to see your data and methods - particularly the authors of a number of books that found racism and fundamentalism intimately connected.

. . . just as there’s an overlap between men and rape. Therefore all men are rapists, without any redeeming qualities? So what if there’s an overlap?

The simple fact is that members of the KKK are fundamentalist Christians, you have to be to get in, and to any reasonable person that speaks volumes about the fundamentalist Christian relationship to minorities.

Not THIS reasonable person. We have one extremely small, relatively insignificant group that requires Christianity for membership . . . and any fundmentalist Christian is a racist? Ya have to be a dude to join NAMBLA . . . therefore all men are pederasts?

What class is that, Bruce? It certainly wasn’t Vitter and it certainly wasn’t the local law enforcement in Washington DC.

Um, one case proves your point (if your read of the facts of the case are accurate)? That’s pretty thin ice, Chet.

What’s your point, exactly? That you, Bruce, can personally speak for the beliefs of all Christians in America?

Oh, heavens no. However, I CAN observe and research and my observations indicate NO statistically significant correlation between racism and Christianity. The KKK and other fringe racist movements number possible 10,000 members (the KKK is currently no more than 5,000), many of which are NOT religious in any way and if they are, they’re just as likely to be Pagans as Christians. Moreover, every last one of ‘em is roundly criticized, rejected, and shunned by mainstream Christians . . . “fundies”included.