Posted by Amanda Marcotte January 30, 2008 in Asides, Sex
I’m really happy with this week’s column at RH Reality Check, where I make what could politely be called a pro-teen sex argument. Teens, start fucking! Okay, mildly kidding about my enthusiasm. It’s more like, teens start fucking when you are ready to handle it and it can be a positive part of your life!
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I don’t mind teens fucking as long as they’re informed, supported and fucking other teens.
*Note: When I worked in Medicaid, the pregnant teen girls were usually NOT fucking other teens.
Yeah, the article I link to in the column really drives home the point that a healthy attitude towards teen sexuality is one that is based in the model of romantic relationships between peers. Call me old-fashioned, but in all honesty I have seen in just personal experience a pretty direct link between adults with health sexualities and having had the fortunate experience of having a stable partner in your youth that you could experiment with safely. Not that it’s impossible to develop a healthy adult sex life without that opportunity, but you probably have to work harder at it.
I’ll add that the Europeans’ relaxed attitudes about teenage sexuality startled me when I first encountered them. I knew a German exchange student a few years ago who cheerfully called her birth control pills “no-baby pills” right in front of her foster family. Meanwhile I was a college student who was wary of letting my family know that I was even taking BC. But the matter-of-factness that some Europeans display—like in Holland, which is the country the article talks about—there’s been a positive effect on the STD transmission and teenage pregnancy rates, which are relatively low.
I think I can prove you’re right, Amanda, by mentioning oral sex between teenagers. Why is the deteriorating generation so hostile to THAT? Almost no risk of STDs, zero risk of pregnancy … and the oldsters can’t even say that boys selfishly refuse to reciprocate, because surveys show that’s not true.
I really do think that our (Americans’) puritanical attitude about sex, drugs, and drinking are a big part of what causes many of the public health issues we have with those things. If kids were taught that sex is fun and how to respect their partners and be safe while doing it, we’d have a lot less teenage pregnancy and STDs. If they were taught how to drink and/or do mild drugs (like pot, etc.) in moderation in a safe environment, we’d probably have a lot fewer issues with addiction, drunk driving, and so on. And the same goes for food as well.
I was really disturbed by the way this issue played out in the coverage of Jamie Lynn Spears’ pregnancy: We thought she was good, but now we know she’s bad, bad, bad!!!! And instead of talking about birth control, it was some sort of morality play about the evils of teen sex. Something like 8 percent of Americans are virgins when they marry, but we’re supposed to go around acting like being a virgin when you marry is some high ideal all teens should aspire to.
For me, if there was any downside to having sex as a teenager, it was that I think I stayed with my high school boyfriend a lot longer than I should have because the sex was pretty good. I think I had to straighten out the difference between someone who made me feel good physically and someone who could make me feel good emotionally. But most people have to learn that lesson sometime, so it might as well be early, when the only barrier to leaving is waking up to the reality of the relationship and its potential, or lack thereof.
Sorry if this is a double post.
I was really disturbed by the way this issue played out in the coverage of Jamie Lynn Spears’ pregnancy: We thought she was good, but now we know she’s bad, bad, bad!!!! And instead of talking about birth control, it was some sort of morality play about the evils of teen sex. Something like 8 percent of Americans are virgins when they marry, but we’re supposed to go around acting like being a virgin when you marry is some high ideal all teens should aspire to.
For me, if there was any downside to having sex as a teenager, it was that I think I stayed with my high school boyfriend a lot longer than I should have because the sex was pretty good. I think I had to straighten out the difference between someone who made me feel good physically and someone who could make me feel good emotionally. But most people have to learn that lesson sometime, so it might as well be early, when the only barrier to leaving is waking up to the reality of the relationship and its potential, or lack thereof.
Unfortuneately, many parents view sexuality as a “forbidden fruit privilege” of being an adult, just like smoking an alcohol. It isn’t viewed as belonging to anybody with sufficient development, to be partaken of in moderation with care. This creates the following fallout on all three fronts:
It’s only for adults
You can’t have it
If you have it you are bad
What are you doing? You can’t do that? Sneaking around …
But … doing it makes me grownup if only grownups can do it …
I’m a naughty grown up because I’m having that bad thing only grownups should have …
Cognitive dissonance anyone? You might also point out that it isn’t just sex that the Dutch boys and girls are clue about - it is also drugs and alcohol which are not prohibited and thus used more moderately and safely by teens, if at all.
Comment in moderation - but here’s one more thing.
Did anybody notice how recent, highly limited research on coffee was spun to make the idea of drinking coffee yet another adult privilege diatribe?
Now that there are pleasant places to get really goooood coffee - places to sit, chat, read, websurf, and enjoy drinking something warm and flavorful - we suddenly have all this huffed concern about teens enjoying those places.
They can’t do that! That’s fun! That’s responsible and social! That involves sensory enjoyment! Not allowed!
Yet more attempts by the baby boomers to take all that is good and either hog it or destroy it.
“They can’t do that! That’s fun! That’s responsible and social! That involves sensory enjoyment! Not allowed!”
…well, caffeine IS a gateway drug…
:)
There’s an element in USAmerican culture that assumes teens will be disrespectful and rebellious, and US teens are substantially worse in that regard than the teens I’ve known from other countries. I strongly suspect that this is due to our puritanical approach to things like sex, alcohol, and drugs. If you’re given a firm rule that you know damn well most of your peers are ignoring, not to mention your parents when they were your age, it kind of undermines all the other firm rules including the good ones like not drinking and driving.
Great essay.
Interesting that you’re talking about the ‘abortion is a terrible, terrible thing, but it should be kept legal’ angle alongside teenage sex, because I think there are a lot of parallels: It seems that a lot of very well meaning liberals, when trying to win over the opposition, tend use the argument of ‘of course teenage sex is bad and wrong, but we should make sure they’re at least physically safe when they do this horrific, life- destroying thing’ with roughly the same frequency that they use the argument ‘of course abortion is nasty and horrific, but you don’t want women bleeding to death in alleys, do you? And anyway, it’s ALWAYS a brutally hard decision.’
Lots of hand wringing and stressing damage limitation, and very little standing up for a positive opinion that might be controversial.
Unfortunately the crazy attitude towards sex doesn’t stop after the teenage years.
Ms. Kate
The crazy towards coffee is just old news dressed in new clothes. When it first hit big in the west, women were discouraged from drinking it. Bach composed the coffee cantata about it as a joke.
I’m not surprised that this old “coffee bad” theme has spread to teens.
I can state wholeheartedly that teen sex was a great thing for me. Started when I was 15 with a sweet boy who I dated for the next 5 years. We were responsible, used condoms and then the pill, and no pregnancies, STDs, or dramatically ruined self-esteems ensued. We broke up in college as our lives moved in different directions. 8 years after we broke up, we’re still friends and both have good (though different) lives. And frankly, most of my friends in high school had sex too, and none of them were damaged by it, even if it wasn’t as idyllic as my experience. I mean, part of growing up is dealing with risk, heartache, and disappointment. That’s how you learn who you are, how to heal yourself, how to make good judgments about character, etc. As long as no life-threatening or uncurable diseases result, and ideally no unplanned pregnancies, then I say no harm, no foul.
Awesome post! I too am very glad for all the teenage sex I had! I certainly got smarter and better at it with more practice.
One thing that I think is a typo you may want to fix — you said: “I also hate facing my morality, the effects of gravity, and the urge to nap instead of do more interesting things.” Should that be facing your morTality? It comes right after the bit about children having sex reminding people they’re going to die, and you don’t really seem to shy away from examining your own morality…
Tilde, I totally agree with what you’re saying. I saw Nancy Keenan speak, and most of her speech was good, but she hit a wrong note when she said, “We all know that no 15-year-old is ready to have sex, but…. etc.” And I groaned inside. Now I think she pulled the number 15 up, because you go any older and people are going to start arguing with you. It’s low enough to cause nodding along without stopping to ask the important question of whether or not 15 really is too young for every single person.
Like Besty—it was clearly fine for you. People mature at different rates. Plus, it’s an opportunity thing. I would not have been fine having sex at 15, because there was no eligible partner. People get this on other issues, but sex seems to get us all screwed up.
“I mean, part of growing up is dealing with risk, heartache, and disappointment.”
I don’t know if it’s that large of a motivation, but I think a lot of older people rationalize their puritanical attitudes towards teen sex and use of drugs (including alcohol) as protecting their children (and others’ children, too, since those bad kids could be influencing mine!). But the problem is that, as Betsy said, you have to deal with risks and heartaches and disappointments to mature. If you protect someone from all risk, they don’t automatically become strong enough to face that risk. Often, they’re just knocked over when the risk finally hits them and all of a sudden they’re not protected anymore.
It makes me think of my small, liberal arts college, full of smart kids, many of whom were protected by their parents and wanted to be good kids. Then they got to college, away from their parents, and, while things didn’t completely fall apart, they really didn’t know how to handle alcohol or sex. For quite a few kids it took at least the first couple years of college, if not all 4 or more years, to get a real handle on it. Those who had some experience in high school were much better about it all.
Oh, and what I wanted to add to my previous comment (which is in moderation right now I believe), is that part of needing risk in order to mature, is that sometimes things will go wrong! And rather than trying to make it so nothing goes wrong EVAR!, since that’s impossible and results in immature individuals, we need to accept that things might go wrong for some people, and offer them the help they need, while still allowing those risks to be taken.
I think a lot of people also look back on how far they’ve come since their teenage years, think how immature they actually were back when they thought they were all grown up, want to protect their kids from the “same mistakes I made” and forget that it was those very “mistakes,” that is experiences, that made them who they are today. I’ve been guilty of that myself. I see a bunch of 15-year-olds and think of the things I was doing at 15 and they seem almost like little kids to me and I can’t believe they might be doing those things I was doing. But youth and maturity is a funny thing. In some ways I certainly am more mature and I see a lot more shades of gray and mostly I think that’s good, but in some ways I think I was braver back before I got all socialized and shit.
Amanda,
You are getting slammed by Jill Stanek and her minions on Stanek’s blog. There are two reasons:
1) Your remarks about teen sex, and…
2) Your remarks about the Holocaust/March for Life where you pointed out that pro-lifers care more about fetuses than real-live born people.
I find this quite ironic as Jill Stanek herself was one of those slutty teens she condemns, and she clearly loved her fetus WAY ‘MO than she loved her child:
From Jill Stanek’s own blog:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are projecting. I am by no means bitter. My son
suffered due to an immature mother who would sometimes rather party than
spend time with him, back in the day.
I sinned. But God saw an opportunity for the blessing of giving a unique,
special child to the world, despite that.
I met Rich when Michael was 3-1/2. We married when he was 5, and Rich
adopted him, which was another blessing.
Posted by: Jill Stanek at January 16, 2008 4:51 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jess, I did not. I got pregnant at age 19 and married to my
18-year-old boyfriend (who was still in high school) at 4-1/2 months
along. I had my oldest at age 20. I was divorced and a single mom by age
23.
I cannot regret my lapse because that would mean I regret my wonderful
son, who has now given me 3 beautiful grandsons.
But our life was hard for a time. And he suffered most for it.
Posted by: Jill Stanek at January 15, 2008 10:34 AM
My concerns about sex-positivity are that I’m not sure how to keep it from skewing hetero, from focusing too much on vaginal penetration (for many of us that’s not where the love is), or from exacerbating the hypersexualization of women’s bodies. I’d rather be “orgasm-positive”.
I want to second what everybody said. Being from Germany, I am really surprised about the attitude towards teen sex that is expressed by so many US-Americans even on feminist blogs: It is really not good for teens (but they should know everything about it). I just don’t get it. I was never taught that it would be an awesome thing to start having sex at the age of 13 but neither were I told that I shouldn’t start before 25. I always experienced that everybody was just fine with some teens having sex at 13 (very few), some at 15 (a lot more), some at 17 (almost everybody). And up to now, I have not heard a single good or plausible reason WHY it is presumably so bad to have sex as a teen. Growing up is mainly about gaining experience, and of course not every single experience will be an awesome one, but that’s definitely no reason not to get any experience at all.
Same goes for alcohol: Like most Europeans I will never ever understand why even beer and wine are forbidden to “teens” under 21 in most of the US.
Why do you trust your teens so little?
::applauds::
I believe that there is absolutely nothing wrong with teenagers having sex. NOTHING! Now, go somewhere and share some orgasms!
Jill Stanek is a certifiable lunatic, seriously. There’s something severely wrong with that woman. In all honesty, I pity her, because whatever demons inside she’s fighting with this ridiculous anti-choice obsession must be severe.
I’m glad you liked the article, Amanda! When I read it, one of the things that leaped out at me was the fact that the Dutch don’t do “Mars and Venus.” They don’t subscribe to the idea that boys are ravening beasts who use girls for sex and then throw them away, and girls are delicate (and brainless) flowers who must be protected. I would not be surprised if the different views of how boys and girls are really does have an impact on relationships.
Historically, the “separate spheres” and “true womanhood” doctrines took hold much more firmly in the US than in Europe. And we’re still wading through the mire those doctrines have left.
I wouldn’t be surprised if this attitude is what is behind the prevalence of older men seeking out teenage girls as sex partners. That is something that I, the sex-positive liberal, am very much against - because, let’s face it, older men who want to sleep with teenage girls are losers who have power issues and often have troubles that keep them from being attractive to women their own age. Anyhow, the Dutch seem to take it for granted that teens will have sex with other teens.
Sadly, I resemble that remark, if being 25 counts as “older” relative to high school students.
“Yeah, the article I link to in the column really drives home the point that a healthy attitude towards teen sexuality is one that is based in the model of romantic relationships between peers.”
This is weird. I know for a fact that neither you or the majority of people on this blog think that a healthy attitude towards sexuality is one founded on romantic relationships. You are all perfectly accepting of casual sex outside lasting romantic relationships. That’s great. But you’re criticising other people for being “giant hypocrites” and “self-congratulatory egoists” who have one standard for themselves and another for everyone else, while at the same time doing exactly the same thing. It it’s not good enough for you, why it is a good idea to feed teens a bunch of lies about romantic love?
What lies are we feeding kids about romantic love, james? You do realize that a human being can experience both romantic love and casual sex in her lifetime, right? I won’t say that casual sex for teenagers is wrong or unhealthy necessarily—you can’t generalize that easily—but I do think that for most people, an entrance into sexual experimentation in the context of a long-term, loving relationship is best. It’s easier to be bold and try out new things with the support it provides you. When you get older and a little more experienced, casual sex is probably a lot easier to manage.
If the “lie” you think we’re feeding about romantic love is the one largely believed by a lot of Americans, that boys can’t love girls and that girls are fucking stupid, then I’m afraid that it’s you who is telling lies, and vicious, misanthropic ones that are hostile to both boys and girls.
“What lies are we feeding kids about romantic love, james?”
The American abstinence crowd are saying ‘don’t have sex unless you’re married’. You disagree. The Dutch (who you’re cheerleading) are saying ‘don’t have sex unless you’re in love’. The article gave the impression that you supported this though, as I suspected and as you confirmed when pushed, you don’t. Which is why you’re being nasty and calling me vicious and misanthropic.
As I said, that seems weird. I think telling people they shouldn’t have sex unless they’re in love is a lie; just as telling people they shouldn’t have sex unless they’re married is a lie. I don’t think lying is a good idea, so I don’t think we should be telling this to kids in schools. All I’m asking is why do you approve of the Dutch telling kids something you don’t believe and don’t practice yourself? As I say, when the abstinence crowd do exactly the same thing you call them “giant hypocrites” and “self-congratulatory egoists”.
Unfortuneately, many parents view sexuality as a “forbidden fruit privilege” of being an adult. […] This creates the following fallout on all three fronts - Ms. Kate
More than three, I reckon.
(4) My parents would every so often say when I wanted candy or some other treat, “when you are an adult and make your own money, you can buy candy whenever you want”. Nu? When the teen becomes an adult, that former teen will then have de facto been taught to have sex in an extremely promiscious manner?
(5) By having sex become so linked with becoming an adult, it places not only tremendous pressure on teens, who want to be adults, to have sex in order to be adults, but also those teens who simply aren’t getting any feel left out and like they are not able to be adults … leading to Nice Guy(TM) behavior, and all sorts of other psychological kronks.
Like the US, this is only some segments of the population. Germans in Baden-Wurttemberg and Bavaria, and most Europeans in former Soviet Bloc countries, are far more sexually conservative than, say, the French, Italians, or Dutch. You will be hard pressed to find a Romanian or Czech girl who is so cavalier about birth control specifically, or sex in general. Except among immigrants. Dutch mores are not penetrating. Ayaan Hirsi Ali covers this topic frequently.Which all goes to show you that Europe is not the sexual wonderland you seem to think it is. I generally agree with you that relaxed attitudes towards sex when it comes to teenagers is a good idea, and the “sex is verboten” attitude causes problems.
I don’t think that introducing any kind of utopia to which you can compare the prudish USA is a good argument. There are countries where there are no restrictions on sexual conduct; Thailand is one. Liberty in Thailand was, frankly, horrifying.
Great job Amanda - though I have to say, that I really feel a different reaction to this subject as a teen, now that I’m in a stable relationship with someone I’ve seriously thought about having sex with. We’re 17 and 18 (he’s something like ten months older) and so far the physical development of our relationship has been very healthy (no pressuring, the one time I regretted moving further was something my fault for being a bit too impulsive (we talked it out) and we have compatible kinks). I just think that thats the sort of situation I’d like to explore my sexuality in - not waiting just because I’m “not old enough”.
And yes, thanks to all you helpful liberal sorts, there will be BC involved. ^^
On the subject of Germany, the creepiest thing over here is the choices women are forced to make because of the educational and employment systems. Women here have this really stark choice–WAY worse than in the States–between kids and career.
First off, I have met plenty of young women who, at age 19 or younger, are holding down a “job” (generally, a McJob) that is all they can get because standardized testing precluded them from higher education: You have a bad day, you test lousy, and you get sent to the Hauptschule to learn how to haul garbage (apparently, they don’t have “late bloomers” here).
Second, when you start with a company–say, Mercedes-Benz or even an American firm like L3–you don’t get vested for years, you don’t get promoted quickly, and your benefits DO NOT follow you. So, if you’re a young person, you have to accept being a corporate slave for a decade or so before you are stable enough to support a family. You can’t really switch jobs or even cities (to move into an apartment here probably runs you around USD 11k with all the fees and bullshit).
So, generally, according to women I meet here, you get this really stark choice between “career” and “kids.” If you want kids, then you have to find someone who can support you. So, you often see these young women (early 20s) pushing two kids in a stroller alongside their 45-year-old, graying dad.
Something about this gives me the heebie jeebies.
Petey, I don’t think Europe is a sexual wonderland. You’re misrepresenting me to make your case. I am super careful, because I’m well aware of the urge to play gotcha on the internets, to say “some” and “middle class”, etc. The report contrasted two groups of people that were alike in most ways in education, citizenship status, position in society, but some were Dutch and some were American.
Whatever, james. My point is very clear. I do think that it’s probably unwise for parents to encourage kids to have all sorts of casual sex at 16. That’s silly. You want me to believe that, because it’s easier to demonize me. I believe that casual sex has its place, but yeah, it’s probably something you want to ease into after you get used to sex under circumstances that are safer, emotionally speaking. My opinion did not actually change because you “pushed”. I’m only adding the caveat that these generalizations don’t apply to everyone due to the gotcha tendencies.
I don’t think that you should have to be in love to have sex. I assumed you were saying that the “lie” is that teenagers can experience love. But if you don’t think that, I take back the misanthropic comment. But if you do think that, then yeah, I think you’re overly cynical and unfair to teenagers.
No “gotcha” here. Sorry to put words in your mouth. When you contrasted the American Old Maid to the uninhibited European teenagers, I assumed you were playing an old saw which might’ve been true 20 years ago, but which is most definately false now unless you have a very limited definition of “European.”
Wanna know what else is creepy? My American co-workers who are glad for the opportunity to look for “suitable” European wives (typically Estonian or Russian). Every time I hear some variation on “she cooks, cleans, and puts out” I throw up in my mouth a little.
And my feelings on really casual sex for teenagers or teenagers having sex with much older people come mainly from what I’ve seen. I’m open to people bringing evidence to the contrary, but on the whole, most people I know who had casual sex the first time out ended up not feeling nearly as good about it as if they were in a stable, loving relationship when they lost their virginity. YMMV, of course, but starting off sex is a bit fraught. Maybe it would be less so if people were less puritanical about it, but I don’t know. I do know that friends of mine who started off their sex lives with casual encounters don’t, on the whole, feel very good about it in the same way that those of us who were lucky enough to have a boyfriend or girlfriend that we went crazy with feel. Getting over hang-ups so you can experiment is a lot easier in the context of a relationship, even if you’re a free spirit, I’ve found. Especially at first when everything is new.
But hey, maybe you can offer a different story. I’m open to it.
My first time was amazing.
Soon afterwards I had all my illusions about this relationship completely destroyed, and that sucked (I was naive and thought we were in a “relationship” because we had sex. Not so much).
What does that count as?
Thanks, Petey. Sorry if my retort was harsh. I brought up the German exchange student mostly because she and I were comparable people from different countries. We’re not in the same family, but basically one step from it. (Cousin of cousin kind of thing.) So I thought it was a reasonable thing to compare our attitudes without too much class/citizenship/education/social status differences that would create static.
And yeah, the mail order bride stuff is fucked up. Someone sent me an article about it—British feminists are angry because a dating agency there is advertising young Czech brides “unspoiled by feminism at a very affordable price”. It’s hard to admit that a lot of men still literally think of women as property.
Less than ideal, Petey.
I’d like to hear from the people out there who started having sex under super-casual circumstances and generally feel great about it, no awkwardness or ill feelings. Because seriously, I’m digging through my mind for anyone who’s told me that’s how it was for them, and I can’t think of a single person. And I know a lot of cheerful sluts who have no problem with casual sex.
Sorry, Doug, but it’s the rare high school student who can handle a healthy relationship with a person 8-10 years older. I had several relationships with older men when I was 16 or 17 and I have to agree that the ones who wanted to have sex with me as opposed to letting me set the pace were not appropriate partners or healthy relationships.
(On the other hand, I do think I’m the better for having fucked up royally a couple of times, and the guys who were (real, not asterisked) nice guys have become good friends.)
Amanda Marcotte
Thanks, Petey. Sorry if my retort was harsh.
Papercuts. I’ve seen what happens when you really get pissed off
Men basically “buy” these women for their beauty and subservience. I would say it counts as the commodification of those features but that implies that there is a “proper” original “use” of them and that the mail-order business represents a “misuse.” What do you think? I think this is conservative terminology.
On the casual sex thing, it’s also worth noting that the question was not, “Should this be allowed?” or “Should birth control be provided?” Attitudes were assessed with the question, “Would you allow a sleepover?” And that’s a bit different. I’d bring my boyfriend for an overnight visit to the parents, but I’m not going to go visit them and call up some dude for casual sex. It’s polite not to share too much with your parents about the specific details.
Teenage sex yadda yadda. Once kids get to college they all fuck like bunnies. Who cares whether they do so or not at 16, or in Germany, or if they do it in a boat, or if they do it with a goat?
My first several times were casual. No regrets, but … my first wonderful times were with a girlfriend. I suspect just about anybody’d say as much. You need to have experience to be uninhibited and, um, skilled enough to have good casual sex. Casual sex is a great thing, but it’s a different rubric than relationship sex. The Eskimos actually have 100 words for sex. Or did before we gave them TV and alcohol.
Teenage sex yadda yadda. Once kids get to college they all fuck like bunnies. Who cares whether they do so or not at 16, or in Germany, or if they do it in a boat, or if they do it with a goat?
My first several times were casual. No regrets, but … my first wonderful times were with a girlfriend. I suspect just about anybody’d say as much. You need to have experience to be uninhibited and, um, skilled enough to have good casual sex. Casual sex is a great thing, but it’s a different rubric than relationship sex. The Eskimos actually have 100 words for sex. Or did before we gave them TV and alcohol.
My first sex, ~14, was semi-casual. I was in a monogamous relationship that lasted a few months, but we were not in love. We continued having sex after the breakup, and remained friendly, but drifted apart. I did fall in love with my next partner, but that one was actually a very unhealthy relationship.
I feel fine about the first partner. I think I’m healthy, kinks and all.
Amanda Marcotte
It’s polite not to share too much with your parents about the specific details.
Tell me about it. One time my folks told me the story of my conception in front of this girl I had brought home. Awkward
Heh. I know it’s my personal stuff, but posts about teen sex make me feel like an alien. I was not remotely close to being “pressured” like the sex-ed and pop culture at the time (I’m 30 this year) implied that all teens were by default. Thank dog for the Internet to make me feel like less of a weirdo….
I just saw this story about an 11th grade couple who were EXPELLED for “kissing and necking” on the school bus. Sick. What’s sad is that the boy has bought into the lie that he did something wrong (the girl is not interviewed).
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2008/01/30/sc.expelled.for.kissing.wccb
People might find this article from the UK interesting.
I guess I’ll offer one cranky voice of dissent. We don’t enforce contracts against minors, even for goofy things like record clubs and health club memberships. We don’t let them drive without serious regulation attached to their driving privileges. We don’t let them join the military (and when recruiters do pressure minors, we are justifiably outraged.) Why? Because of the serious, even catastrophic damage to minors that can arise from those decisions.
So why is it so damn wonderful to encourage the least responsible, least self-sufficient age group to engage in conduct that can lead directly to career- and health-wrecking pregnancy and potentially deadly sexually transmitted infections, to be covered no doubt in part by the taxpayers who aren’t doing the screwing? Teenage sex is against the public policy interest of every unit of government.
Teenagers should be encouraged to bust their asses in school, in employment, learning a trade and learning the skills for survival and independence so that when they are good and mature at, you know, 20, they can be fully self-sufficient and THEN play higher-stakes roulette with pregnancy and STDs. Condoms are an excellent but only partial defense; they tear, they slip and they get misused by drunks (e.g. not pulling the hell out promptly after ejaculation.)
West Baltimore’s slums, VD rates, and multigenerational child delinquency and drop out rates are testaments to the catastrophic results of teenage sex. We don’t watch The Wire; we live it and we are tired, so tired of it. Celibacy is a prudent choice, one that transmits no STIs, causes no pregnancies and costs no money. Why on earth we would encourage teenagers to be sexually active - as if they needed the nudge - is beyond me; we should be discouraging it by absolutely every available means short of state violence.
How old were you when you started having sex, Bruce? Do you feel that you needed to wait? Why or why not?
I won’t answer the specifically personal question about my biography, for the same reason that you probably don’t answer some personal questions on a blog read widely.
But as to what my priorities were and are? Yes, I do and did think that it was more important to have kept my white-trash ass on a scholarship to a local private school than either to have dropped out at 17 to get a part-time job, or to have asked my mother to work her arthritic joints on overtime in a nursing unit to pay child support for me then.
I do and did think that it was more important to focus on my studies as a near 100% financial aid student in the Ivy League than to fool around, risk an STD or having to drop out and flip burgers to pay support. Unlike the President, my grandfather was a dead construction worker, not a dead Senator. My father made his living and still does with grease on his hands at a lathe, rather than by being a Bush. Lather rinse repeat for law school, for the same reasons.
I am the father of two children with autism. I work, between commute and on the clock, 71-74 hours a week. That’s a lifestyle for a 38 year-old, not a teenager trying to figure out life, especially at minimum wage jobs that are often dangerous - slicing your hand on a deli slicer, get burned in a grease fire.
Enough people have to go through that sort of ass-breaking work burden through unavoidable misfortune; at least I get to work at a desk as an attorney rather than risking injuries including injuries that worker’s comp won’t cover. Too many of my cousins either paid or collected support the hard way at a very young age, laying brick and block outdoors risking frostbite to pay support at too young an age.
One uncle, sixth of six kids, sued to GET custody at 19 over his and his ex-girlfriend’s daughter, my cousin in the early 1970s. He won, but my impoverished grandmother was the actual caretaker while he apprenticed as a bricklayer long hours. So was I wise not to do as he did? His people were not Bushes either.
I didn’t lose my virginity until I was 19, but that wasn’t by choice; it was because I was a shy boy lacking in self-confidence. I had lots of great sex with my first serious girlfriend, and I agree with Amanda that a relationship is the best place for teenagers to explore their sexuality. I certainly could have handled sex emotionally at age 17, but probably no younger than that. OTOH, I was a pretty young 17.
I’m not asking out of meany-headedness, Bruce. If you actually bothered to read the article I link, you’d see why. My point is that the vast majority of anti-teen sex posturing—including yours, I’d bet dollars to donuts—is hypocritical posturing. We all had sex as teenagers, few of us regret it, and yet we think kids these days can’t handle what we did with ease? I call bullshit.
Your talk about burger-flipping makes no sense. How does sex impede the climb up the economic ladder? Last I checked, potential employers and schools don’t actually have virginity tests.
I’d like to hear from the people out there who started having sex under super-casual circumstances and generally feel great about it, no awkwardness or ill feelings.
I guess that includes me, then, since she wasn’t my girlfriend, just a girl who I hung out with sometimes in college and thought was attractive. And I guess I don’t feel particularly awkward about it now, nor did I really then - she was really frank and open about sex, enthusiastic but casual, and I guess that attitude rubbed off on me at the time.
The friendship after that was kind of awkward, I guess.
Teenage sex is against the public policy interest of every unit of government.
I don’t believe for a fucking second that it’s the business of the government, at any level, to be the world’s largest single cockblock. Is that in the Constitution somewhere?
“Is that in the Constitution somewhere?”
…not yet, but The Huckster is trying…
Bruce, you seem to be missing some key facts about populations rather than individuals.
I was trailer trash and didn’t become sexually active until I was in college, and with plenty of birth control. I hear your personal story and understand fully where you are at.
However, I now hold a PhD in public health and I see that you are strongly confusing your personal circumstances with the broader reality of population behavior.
Put bluntly, teens are gonna fuck. They are going to be sexually active. There is existing and mounting evidence that IF teens are told about abstinence as if it is the only viable option, they will continue to fuck. If they are given comprehensive sexual education which lays out the plusses and minuses in a matter-of-fact way and given understanding and access to birth control, they are LESS likely to fuck at earlier ages, MORE likely to use protection when they eventually do so, MORE likely to do so in the context of serial monogamy, and LESS likely to contract and pass along infections and LESS likely to “ruin their lives”.
Nobody here is “encouraging teens to have sex”. That would be like encouraging the sun to rise in the morning and set in the evening. HOWEVER one cannot discourage the sunrise either, nor do “abstinence” messages discourage teen sexuality.
SO, if the goal is to reduce the harmful fallout of teen sexuality, the odds on, scientifically-supported strategy is to provide substantial education which supports responsible sexuality. We’ve known for years that DARE doesn’t work, we are finding again and again that abstinence doesn’t work. Recognizing that teens are humans and like to have sex and teaching them to do so safely and responsibly DOES work.
Cockblock … so for us femmes it would be a cuntshunt?
Bruce, you’re denouncing teen pregnancy, right, as a disruptor of young people’s lives? I don’t see anything in what you say that opposes teen sex itself. The point of this post (I think) was that our attitudes toward teen sex–calamitous! sinful! dirty! boys victimize girls!–might be increasing the teen pregnancy rate.
In fact, they almost surely do. My entire ability to fend off catastrophe depends on my lacksadasical attitude towards sex, I don’t think it’s wrong in any real sense, so I have no shame about the necessary precautions.
This is a great discussion, bringing up so many issues around teen sex & romance & pregnancy, but every time I see a blog discussion of abstinence ed or teen sex or “hookup culture” or whatever I kinda want to jump in and threadjack it with…what about all the people who DIDN’T get any action as teens? Quotes from a couple posts here that were otherwise good: “I didn’t lose my virginity until I was 19″ (Norsecats) and “Once kids get to college they all fuck like bunnies” (Godmonkey). Um. Don’t care to be too specific posting under my real name, but…I know plenty of people who didn’t have certain things happen till they were almost out of, or long out of college…early 20s, or very late 20s… Why is this always framed as youth “choosing” to be abstinent vs. youth “choosing” to have sex? If this has all been discussed here before, I apologize…but it just seems like late bloomers get shut out of this whole debate. Well, I guess people who aren’t sexually active until they’re in their 20s aren’t entirely relevant to a discussion of teens and sex, but…I don’t know, maybe kids need to be prepared for the possibility that things won’t happen for them for a while? Can anyone else relate? I’ve revealed too much and I’ll run along now…
I meant that I tend to fall into the category of “losers who have power issues and often have troubles that keep them from being attractive to women their own age.” On some level, I feel like a 16-year-old; I didn’t have any kind of (reasonable) romantic relationships in high school or in college, so I’m in the same place in my life, relationship-wise, that a lot of younger people are; I haven’t even had a “first kiss” yet, if that means anything.
I may have mentioned this before, but I have no job and am currently being supported by my parents. I have not been looking for a job either. I don’t want a job. In fact, I might very well prefer to jump off a bridge before I would submit to having a job. Having no income and no prospects of getting an income tends to make one undateable, not to mention that I spend all day on the Internet and have no close friends that I see regularly.
Doug, do you have any way to get some counseling? You don’t sound very satified with your life and you sound kind of stuck. That doesn’t make you a bad or lazy person, but you might have more options than you can see.
That said, part of the stupidity of sexism is that our society would have a place for you were you female - you could be a full-time housewife or a nanny/housekeeper. Never mind that you might not find that fulfilling, your labor would be welcome in the unpaid or marginally paid economy just the same. Isn’t that what that victorian purity woman with no job and living with parents is about? Waiting for her daddy to sign over her deed to her next owner? Meanwhile, men in your situation are stigmatized and furloughed.
Doug, Ms Kate is right, “seek professional help.” Ain’t nothing gonna grow in that soil. Forget about romance/sex for now. Find enjoyable social outlets, at all. Jesus, you’re making me sad over here.
If this has all been discussed here before, I apologize…but it just seems like late bloomers get shut out of this whole debate - katherine
But are we who didn’t end up having sex until, e.g., our late 20s necessarily “late bloomers”? I, for one, developed early, was interested in girls even earlier (*) yet I never had the opportunity to have sex until much later in life than college: I didn’t choose to wait until the right woman came around, it just sorta happened that way (and I am so happy that it has worked out the way it did).
To me, as I pointed out above, part of the problem with the emphasis on sex being an adult activity (including how we talk about “sexual content” as “adult content”, no matter how juvenile the humor involved is) is that it makes sex a sign of adulthood and makes we who, for whatever reasons, are not having sex, feel less mature and feel that we must have sex to be adults.
The net result, for those interested in curtailing teen sex, is that ironically, their efforts to push teens to “wait until you are an adult” end up creating a mindset that teens feel they must have sex to be adults — so hence they have sex because they feel its necessary to be a grown up, which is what teens want to be.
* true story: I read somewhere as a kid this theory concerning homosexuality that kids typically go through a homosexual phase, so to speak … I was always interested in girls, so I figured that, if straight kids go through a gay phase, I must be gay and just going through the corresponding straight phase. When I told my mom this, her response was something to the effect of “I think you might be a little unclear on the concept of homosexuality” … she then proceeded to explain how out of date that theory was, that if I liked girls that meant that I was, in fact, straight, and anyway, even if I was gay, it wouldn’t matter to them except that they’d know then to pressure me to find a nice Jewish boy rather than a nice Jewish girl …
I think you make an excellent point about sex being a normal part of development. In my experience, I think i am a little worse off overall for lacking a sex life through most of my youth. I learned that guys who wanted to fuck were not decent people, they were users. Yet i want to, so maybe I wasn’t such a decent person. vary and repeat ad nauseum. It did take work to get to a healthier place.
I’m still laughing. That is a hilarious and sweet story.
Doug S., I have pretty much the same attitude toward work as you do, though at the moment I’ve come across a job I enjoy. That may not last, but I’m happy with it right now. Anyway, my unsolicited advice would be to look for a place to volunteer in your area, helping out with something you believe in. That at least will shake up your routine. And if you talk to the people who work or volunteer alongside you, you might get some leads toward finding a job that isn’t soul-crushing drudgery. The freedom that comes from having a bit of extra cash in your pocket may be worth it.
Yeah, the article I link to in the column really drives home the point that a healthy attitude towards teen sexuality is one that is based in the model of romantic relationships between peers.
Really, really have to disagree there.
“Romantic relationships” are exactly what leads to a lot of messed-up teenage romance. Girls aren’t encouraged to recognize simple lust; nope, you have to LOOOOVE the guy. And boys are encouraged to lie about the extent of their romantic feelings as a means to get sex. Plus, encouraging ‘romantic relationships’ leads to slut-shaming, and suggests that sex isn’t something that’s OK in its own right; it’s only OK if it’s part of love, even puppy love, even one-way or unhealthy love.
Which is to say, I’m with you in supporting healthy attitudes toward sexuality; I’m utterly unconvinced that we need to paint it happy “romance” colors.
I’ve been in counseling my whole life because my parents force me to go; it’s always felt like a punishment for disobedience, for not going along with what my parents wanted me to do. It never helped me one bit. I don’t like my psychiatrist and I can’t tell him or my parents anything, because they have power over me. As far as I’m concerned, all my psychiatrist is good for is refilling my prescriptions. Other therapists have been equally useless.
Interestingly, I can spill my guts publicly on the Internet, but I can’t tell my psychiatrist if I’m having suicidal thoughts. (If I could go back in time and slip my mother the morning-after pill, I’d do it, but as my death would hurt my parents and brother, I’m most definitely NOT going to kill myself any time soon, no matter how much I might personally prefer to be dead. Besides, being the world’s laziest person, I find that suicide just takes too much effort…)
Anyway, I don’t find being a _good_ homemaker any more desirable than employment; I just don’t care very much if the house gets messy, I have no patience for cooking to the point where putting mayonnaise on bread for a sandwich is too much trouble, and my parents have to pester me pretty hard before I’ll do much of anything to help out.
I’m basically the world’s laziest person. If it feels like effort, I won’t do it until not doing it feels like more effort than doing it. Finding and keeping a job feels like effort, so I’m not going to do it. Even volunteer work is basically too much bother. Fix myself and get happy and motivated to do things? Wow, does that feel like an effort.
As for money, that really doesn’t motivate me. I have about $30,000 in the bank; to save for my college education, my parents bought bonds in my name (for tax purposes) and since I had what was basically a full scholarship, I ended up with the money that would have paid for my tuition. I have enough money to buy basically anything I think is worth getting that my parents aren’t providing, and I’m just not interested in, say, having a fancy car or a place to live that’s bigger than half of a college dorm room. Aside from food, shelter, and an Internet connection, what do I need money for?
(I refuse to buy individual health insurance, because the $600 a month premium for a minimal plan with a $10,000 deductible is just ridiculous; if I get sick and can’t get treatment for lack of money, then, well, I guess I won’t get treatment.)
I’ve never understood the whole “but teh sex will make you poor and drop out” argument. Yes, becoming pregnant will mean expenses, but the sex itself is not going to magically drain my bank account.
Bruce, you DO realize that teenagers can have sex without getting STDs or getting pregnant, just as easily as adults can do the same, right? i had sex as a teenager, as did everyone i know, and none of us had to drop out of school, or got pregnant, or ended up flipping burgers. and i don’t see why being an adult would make sex any less likely to cause those things, if it were true that’s what sex caused.
Doug S, i think sleeping with teenagers would only increase your problems, so i recommend NOT doing that, regardless if you are attracted to them or not. please take care of yourself before you drag kids into your bed.
as for therapy, if you think of it as PUNISHMENT, it’s going to be difficult for it to help you. try to think of it as HELP, since you can’t change yourself all on your own.
Doug S, also, was wondering if you tried any medication? after finding the right one for me, it has improved my life SO MUCH.
Amanda, i lost my virginity in a semi-casual relationship. we weren’t in love, i was only with him for 2 months total, but i had no problems with it. he was slow and gentle and there was no pressure, i WANTED it bad, i wasn’t willing to wait for a romance to come along. i was 17. i regretted not sleeping w/ my first love, when i was 15, because mainly i had bought into the whole “sex is for adults” and so held out. by the time i was 17, with no new loves in sight, i was practically willing to screw the first guy who was willing! (jk)
i’ve had casual relationships, and one night stands, and serious relationships, and i do have to agree, that the sex is always better with love, at least for me. i gave up on one night stands because i have never reached an orgasm a single time w/ them. (and i get orgasms VERY easily…) nowadays, if i’m not in a serious relationship but am horny, i won’t do one night stands, but will casually date someone and get to know them a bit (like 2 or 3 dates) to make sure they aren’t assholes and that has worked out very well for me.
katherine, my current bf didn’t have sex until he got with me, at age 30. (not by choice, although i think it could’ve happened if he actually tried - he’s very shy. he also probably isn’t into casual sex, and he just wasn’t in love w/ anyone until me.) i do agree kids should not be taught that to become an adult, they have to have sex, but i also think they shouldn’t be taught that to have sex, they need to be an adult (or married.) everyone has their own development process, and it should be encouraged for everyone to follow their own paths.
I’m basically the world’s laziest person. If it feels like effort, I won’t do it until not doing it feels like more effort than doing it.
Doug, are you sure you don’t have a thyroid problem? A close friend of mine was once in your almost exact situation - no motivation, tired all the time, feeling “lazy”, depression - and it turned out to be his thyroid.
Chet may be on to something here Doug. Aside from that, it sounds like counseling is a real bust for you because it isn’t about what you want from life. I can understand that.
You may be set for now, but you probably aren’t set forever. At some point, something will need to change. I hope your both your sake and your family’s sake it isn’t your very existance!
Best of luck, whatever you may end up doing.
Hmm, I don’t think having sex as a teenager necessarily makes adult relationships easier (in fact, I can’t really think of any reasons why it would). I think having a positive first sexual and/or romantic experience does, but I don’t think it makes a difference whether that happens when you’re 16 or 26 (although past some age, society starts telling you there’s Something Wrong With You).
I didn’t have sex until I was 19, and that was an appropriate choice for me. Having sex earlier would not have made me better prepared for adult relationships because I wasn’t ready for sex.
So…I think it’s fine and healthy for many teenagers to have sex, and it’s fine and healthy for others not to, and I don’t think there should be pressure or value placed on either.
Um, duh?
Medication has helped, for a certain value of “help” - it makes me feel better and perhaps has made me more compliant, but it doesn’t make me care. I really only graduated high school and college because my parents demanded that I do so.
I’ve had lots of blood tests, and apparently my thyroid hormones are normal.
My “laziness” was somewhat deliberately constructed. I generally won’t do unpleasant things now in order to achieve a future reward. Thinking about my future has been the most reliable way to make myself feel miserable, so I’ve trained myself to only focus on the present. At times, I’ve found it fairly easy to achieve happiness in the present by distracting myself through books, video games, or the Internet. As my parents clearly care much more about my long-term prospects than I do, it’s lead to many conflicts.
Recently, though, my problems seem to have shifted from “there’s this big nasty thing, called school, that’s keeping me from doing what I really want to do” to “Now that nobody’s using threats to force me to do things, I no longer know what it is I wanted the free time to do in the first place.”
Medication has helped, for a certain value of “help” - it makes me feel better and perhaps has made me more compliant, but it doesn’t make me care.
In fact, medication typically does the exact opposite– it’s supposed to ensure that you don’t care, so that you don’t get distracted with your depression weighing you down.
For Doug, there are no simple answers. Acting differently would require a substantial inner change that isn’t going to come out of a few medical prescriptions or counseling sessions.
Amanda, I agree that abstinence only education doesn’t work and is foolish even if it did “work.” People need to know how their bodies work and about adult relationships. I think that Joycelyn Elders got a completely raw deal.
As for jobs at McDonald’s, the point is that you shouldn’t have to spend your early years slaving over a grease pit (frostbitten construction site, etc.) on crazy overtime to support a child because you has sex when you were 18. My people - a lot of them - screwed up their lives through their sexual choices. I feel lucky to have escaped a similar fate. It angers me to think that someone would take your advice and screw up her or his life. You are pro-choice, right?
I am sorely tempted to take your bait Amanda, as you seem to be accusing me of bad faith, “hypocrisy” here. I don’t impugn your motives, I don’t think you are TRYING to promote the scourges of teen pregnancy and STIs that afflict the city I live near. You are trying to help. I question the effectiveness of your approach. But again, not discussing my first sexual experience with your widespread readership for the same reason you aren’t discussing your last one.
Ms. Kate, you and I are closer in viewpoint, I think.