Unceasing harlotry!
Well, this is a red letter day. Amanda Marcotte gets mentioned here twice. I see she also likes to wear red. Appropriate.
Ha! I also show my ankles in public. Truly a living example of the decline of Western civilization.
Someone call Lord Saletan and ask him if he’d like to write a piece on how anti- and pro-choicers can come together and compromise by convincing women to wear pink instead.
Update: It must be the weather. Mo Dowd is making hay over the fact that Hillary Clinton wears red.
Like Scarlett O’Hara after a public humiliation, Hillary showed up at the gathering wearing a defiant shade of red.
I can safely say that if you had told me yesterday that some people are still genuinely troubled by women who wear red, I would have laughed at you.
288 Responses to “Harlotry unleashed”
Leave a comment
Line and paragraph breaks automatic, e-mail address never displayed, HTML allowed: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <code> <em> <i> <strike> <strong>
I’m sure she would be okay with you wearing red, as long as you were willing to be called Ofmarc…
And once again we see that the tactics of the anti-choicers mirror those of PETA with remarkable fidelity. I wonder if it would exceed the limits of tastelessness to parody her approach as The Holocaust in Your Uterus, except with pictures of the results of miscarriages instead of abortions.
I read through a few of the comments on that site. Here’s an instant classic:
And women who have abortions are much more likely to abuse children from subsequent pregnancies, so there you go.
I reminded her that the Nazis were actually in full agreement with her about abortion and birth control. I’m sure that went over well. Not sure, since she didn’t let it post.
Like I said below in comments, I actually kind of pity her since she’s so fucked up in the head about sex and pregnancy. I suspect something terrible happened to that woman once, and this is her attempt to reconcile the trauma. I’m usually uneasy to pull out the “you’re mentally ill!” card, because we’re all neurotic on one level or another. But I just have a hunch about her.
Well, this is a red letter day. Amanda Marcotte gets mentioned here twice. I see she also likes to wear red. Appropriate.
It’s all falling into place.
So, by this construction, my late grandmother was a harlot at the age of 93?
I knew she stayed active, but geez …
I want that dress. From the time I could talk red has been my favorite color. I got married in a red dress. Now that my hair is silver, I am seriously considering wearing only red.
I stopped reading the comments once they started sounding like Reverend Lovejoy: “Everything is about Jesus.” it all melds into white noise at some point.
Hell, get me the right heels, and wig, (and bags of sushi rice with the strapless bra) and on the right occasion, and I’ll rock that dress.
Redstocking, I’m with you. Red is my favorite color to wear. But then, I’m living in sin right now, not to mention using the Satanic birth control pill, so that’s apparently appropriate for me.
MCC, “http://plif.andkon.com/archive/wc191.gif” ???
Shows nothing on my browser.
Though I don’t know that I’d want *that* dress - its waistline is kind of weird and would not be flattering on me.
Yeah: Wichita, Gilead. Capital city of same.
That is a hot dress, Amanda. You’d wear it with style, I think!
Yay! We get the Abortion Museum! That’ll go great with our other attractions, like the world’s largest ball of twine and the world’s deepest hand dug well!
What would Stanek think if she found out that my bedsheets are also red? She’s probably faint from moral outrage.
“What would Stanek think if she found out that my bedsheets are also red?”
If they’re red, AND they’re satin…Burn the witch!!!…
What would Stanek think if she found out that my bedsheets are also red?
Shit, so are mine.
And, whenever given the chance, I decorate my bathroom in red.
I think I need the statue of fetuses on spikes to really make it a good bathroom, though. That’d make an awesome free-standing toilet paper holder.
I had never been over to Stanek’s website before. Wow. That is some unhinged shit.
And sign me up for the harlotry club; my bedsheets are red, too.
Umm, I have to go buy lots of red items from a thrift-shop now. I don’t currently own any red items, I’m a blue person myself. But as they seem to think red makes you one saucy temptress ( what with it being the color of stop signs, menstrual blood, and aborted fetuses) I might as well oblige them. This way if I ever get in the argument with a rethuglican, I can simply point to myself and tell them that they were asking for it, as it should have been obvious that they were dealing with Sinner.
All I can think is that’s one pretty, pretty, dress and if I owned it I would wear it every chance I had.
I have a red couch. Obviously I am the whore of Babylon. My dining room table is a red Moroccan table. I’m obviously a traitor and a harlot. I kind of like it.
They should brand you with some kind of letter for wearing red all the time like the deranged hussy you are.
Now, what color to make the letter…
I’m wearing mustang cargo pants right now, does that count?
“What would Stanek think if she found out that my bedsheets are also red?
Shit, so are mine”
“And sign me up for the harlotry club; my bedsheets are red, too.”
Well, that makes four, cause mine are too. I’ve got one set of regular red, and one set of red plaid. In fact, Grolby is sitting on the plaid ones right now. Sinners, all of us.
Also red dress=WANT!
We’ve got king-sized red satin sheets and Charlie has a lovely, low-cut, skin tight sleeveless 1950’s era nightclub-style evening gown with sz 10 red heels…
Okay, bring on the firing squad.
BTW, Anderson Cooper was just talking with Nancy Reagan before the latest Rep Debate at the Reagan Library and- GASP!!- NANCY WORE A RED DRESS!
Tawdry slut.
God, that’s an awesome dress. And speaking of red dresses, Nancy Reagan, anyone? I seem to recall she wore a lot of red.
I love that dress, though now it would clash like mad with my pink hair.
Aww damn, now I’m missing being able to wear harlot red.
see, it’s winter. My red sheets are flannel. snuggly warm.
I love the color red; I just love jewel tones. Stanek lives a very sad sad life if she really believes this crap. If something bad happened to her, she’s really hostile about it toward other women. I can’t figure what might have happened to her, frankly.
My winter coat, and computer bag are also red. Yeah, I like the color. And I look fabulous in it…same with orange.
The red dress is a mid-80s Oscar de la Renta, FYI. From all the enthusiasm here, I’m guessing the 80s really and truly are back.
Aahhh, my red plaid ones are flannel too. Agree with you MAJeff, about the winter thing.
God, don’t say that. Shoulder pads and pouffy hair were bad enough the first time around.
If I ever marry again, I’ll definitely wear red to the wedding.
But THIS time around they’re DIGITAL!
I am so jealous of women who look good in red. I look like I’m suffering some sort leprosy whenever I try to wear it.
Strut it if you got it, Amanda!
I don’t suppose that dear crazy Mo realized that Laura Bush was ALSO wearing red. And we all know what a rebellious Jezebel SHE is!!
Red is very popular amongst recent First Ladies–Nancy Reagan used to wear it all the time. What does it mean? Not a damn thing, probably.
. Shoulder pads and pouffy hair were bad enough the first time around.
Oh, not poofy hair, the claw! And it still hasn’t gone away in some places. (It’s still called “revere hair” around here, which is more like, “revee-a hay-a”)
I’m not generally a red fan in clothing - but I could seriously rock that dress.
I guess my grandmother was a wanton harlot then, since she once wore a red dress to church!
Of course, in her day, she had to go to the next town over on a day her parents were out of town in order to wear the dress without causing a scandal. She had made the dress secretly, and when they were gone, she scooted out to wear her rebellious dress in a church where nobody knew her. Ran back home, changed, and was surprised by her parents arriving home a day early. They had gone to church a town over, and all they wanted to talk about was the scandalous woman wearing a bright red dress in church. What kind of people went to that church? (They had only seen her from the back.)
Apparently, Jill Stanek has not progressed from the sartorial views of Gadston, Alabama Quakers from the early 1920’s.
Revere hair? Like in prayer? Well, we did always say in Texas, the higher the hair the closer to god.
I can only wear certain shades of red–generally darker, more blue-ish shades, like a dark wine red or a raspberry red. The brighter colors make me look very washed out and kind of ill (I’m really, really pale with a peachy complexion). But I do love it.
I also have red bedsheets and the dress I currently wear to most weddings/dress up events is a really nice shade of red, as is my favorite sweater. Does that make me a harlot too?
“Apparently, Jill Stanek has not progressed from the sartorial views of Gadston, Alabama Quakers from the early 1920’s.”
That’s a feature, not a bug…
Which made me think of The Village, a place that Jill Stanek would probably love to live…
Wearing red makes it ridiculously easy to shop. You can be in and out of a shop or thrift shop in minutes. I have a red living room as well as red sheets. When my mom died, we decided to honor her by wearing red and singing We Shall Overcome at her funeral.
Red is an auspicious color for Hindus and Hindu brides tend to wear red.
As in
http://www.princejewellery.com/images/hindu-bride-image.jpg
http://www.spadaphotography.com/portraits/beautiful_hindu_bride.jpg
http://www.vdiexports.com/adminvdi/data/images/PS413.jpg
So, all you who favor red, you’re in excellent company!
:-)
-Arun
Revere hair? Like in prayer?
Nope, town on the North Shore.
The drop waist! The Moiré! The jaunty bow! Ahhhh! The first thing that popped into my head when I saw the pic was “great color, but the dress is so…1986″.
I guess I was paying more attention to fashion in the 80’s than I thought (I was in a green plaid uniform all the time in the late 80’s).
And I wish I were surprised about the Jill and MoDo’s Red Scare, but I’m not.
Today the 20-year-old boys sitting behind me on the bus were grouching to each other about how they had expected their female housemates to “cook and clean for them”, and were shocked that said females did not in fact fly around picking up their male roomie/godheads’ shit. So we’re getting this crap from all sides. What century is this again?
Jill Stanek’s defnitely up to some odd retro-style slut-shaming here. But all this “ZOMG red!” nuttiness kinda struck me as an anti-leftist dogwhistle, particularly with all the John Edwards bits thrown in. Watch out Amanda, next she’ll be blaming you for the Haymarket Riot!
(and apologies in advance if this quintuple posts or anything)
No doubt Stanek thinks you dye your clothes and sheets red with the blood of virgins, including unborn children.
I love red clothes too. :^D
Don’t tell me you have that little red book tucked under that lovely red dress of yours, inkybrain.
Oh that was really funny! It was like something a maiden Aunt would say in an Elizabeth Gaskell novel …..
“I see Miss Amanda likes to wear red. How appropriate” sniffed Aunt Jill derisively looking down her aquiline nose.
Count me in as another lover of red - my phone is red, my bag is red, my favourite boots are red (what would Maiden Aunt Jill think of women who wear red boots? I fear an attack of the vapours!). BTW, love your red sweater in the photo, you shameless hussy, you!
I don’t understand this ‘red dress’ is harlot business.
Shouldn’t a real harlot dress looks like 1st century roman hooker? (ie. harlot.) Red couldn’t possibly be a harlot dress color, since modern red dye accessible to mass is only available after late 19th century. I am just saying…heh.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochineal
After synthetic pigments and dyes such as alizarin were invented in the late 19th century, natural-dye production gradually diminished. However, current health concerns over artificial food additives have renewed the popularity of cochineal dyes, and the increased demand has made cultivation of the insect profitable again
Yes of course people will then say, yeah but this is modern day perception. .. And I say…
NEON GREEN is definitely freaky color.
—–
Note:
How people dress during the Roman empire.
http://www.roman-empire.net/society/soc-dress.html
I had a courthouse wedding in a red dress, and Chef wore a red shirt to match. We’re, like, extra scandalous.
Yeah, I had to fight with my MIL when I got married because I wanted a green sari instead of a red one. We didn’t have an actual Hindu wedding, but got some kind of blessing at a temple the day before the wedding and she really wanted me to wear a sari. I was kind of willing to wear red, if I found one I liked, but I saw the particular green one and I fell in love with it. And since I was wearing it and I was paying for it and I had to get the expensive extra wide one anyway (I’m tall) and it was my first sari, I was getting the one I wanted. And now that I have several, I still don’t have a red one (I have two green, two blue, a purple, and a gold, but no red).
Well, it’s getting to be time for Chinese New Year, so if wearing red is scary, I suggest staying out of the general “far east” region or any sort of Chinatown around the 7th.
And also, since Valentine’s Day is this month, I imagine a lot of students will be encouraged to wear red on the 14th … I know I was, especially in elementary school.
Okay, so Chinese people are sluts, and schoolkids are sluts, and … lessee … particular school sports supporters are sluts …
Me, I look bad in red. I do wear burgundy, but regular red looks horrible on my translucent skin.
Nancy Reagan is famous for wearing red. I guess that makes her a harlot.
Nah, being a harlot is too much fun for Nancy.
Not only the color of harlots, but of socialist and communists. No wonder it has to be banned. Oh, and wait, for the last decade or so the color of the die-hard republican party and power ties.
Well, honestly. When any habitual reader of GWTW knows that the dress Scarlett wore during her humiliation scene was actually moss green, with a big bunch of pink roses on the bustle…
I guess Americans really don’t read…
1. Last night Jon Stewart took the piss out of HRC and Laura Bush wearing apparently coordinated red dresses at the SOTU yawnfest.
2. I just bought a fire-engine red - oops, I mean harlot red - electric mixer. Evidence that some of us are depraved even when we pretend to be nice little housewives.
3. I can’t believe Stanek consigned Amanda to the same circle of hell as Nazi prison guards. See how the liberal fascism meme travels?
A harlot mixer? How come I wasn’t invited?
Lets see … red sheets … red duvet … red dining room … red sofa … own three red sweaters … have I attained the level of Rebellious Jezebel yet?
Reveyah Hayuh aka Big Hayuh. Oh gadzooks, I remember wading through the Vinnies and Marias to get across Kenmore Squayah to the Ratt. They would get pre-tanked out of the trunk of their Camaros parked on the streets of the Kenmore Squayuh arear and stumble over to the Kenmore Club aka Celebration.
Remember Italian Ice, Jeff?
Down at Reveyuh Beach sittin’ onna wall
Me an’ my boys ah drinkin PBaH Talls
My othuh hand is empty so I tug on my balls …
In the movie, Scarlett wears a red dress to Melanie’s death bed under the command of Rhett, who wants to humiliate her for her faithless heart. So really, it has nothing to do with women’s own desires. It’s about shaming Scarlett for her sexual proclivities.
I was just thinking that with my red sheets, couches, curtains, and appliances I apparently wasn’t as perfect a dutiful SAHM as I thought. Or is it ok to wear red if our husbands like it? I mean, if I dress like a harlot, but only because my master wants me to, is that alright?
Nah, being a harlot is too much fun for Nancy.
Are you kidding? People still say she gave the best blowjobs in Hollywood before she and Ronnie got married when she was three months pregnant.
Don’t let her fool you — Nancy was a goer.
Well, honestly. When any habitual reader of GWTW knows that the dress Scarlett wore during her humiliation scene was actually moss green, with a big bunch of pink roses on the bustle…
I think people are remembering Jezebel, where Bette Davis wears a scarlet dress to a dance and Henry Fonda publicly humiliates her by forcing her to dance on the empty dance floor in front of the shocked crowd.
(Nick’s Flick Picks has an interesting analysis of the movie here.)
You know who else wore red dresses? HITLER.
Thanks, bekabot. I read all the comments to see if someone would mention the that in the book, at the infamous post-Ashley-hug party scene, Scarlett wears GREEN. As Amanda points, out, because Rhett made her do so. But still. GREEN, which on the color wheel is the opposite of red, morons. Why flaunt your ignorance, Ms. Stanek?
Knowing how the wingnut mind works, I think someone has a lesbian crush on Amanda.
Red is a big part of my wardrobe, and I accessorize with red lipstick and red toenails. I have red sheets, and leopard-pattern sheets, and black sheets. Even the computer I’m using right now is red.
Also, I like apples and cherries. So apparently there is no hope for me.
Gotta go with the pop psychologist on this one. File under “the things that bubble up from a repressed psyche”.
Remember Italian Ice, Jeff?
Of course.
I’m still mourning ManRay in Central Sqayah….well, at least Thursday nights there…talk about harlotry! Ah, the days when it was still possible to get laid at a bar. Good times.
Damn, I have the red blender, the red sheets AND a chic red crochet handbag. And HOLY SHIT! I’m wearing a red shirt from UT Madrigal Dinner! Where, oh where did I go wrong?
Maybe they don’t like women wearing red for the same reason advertisers love to put it on packaging - it draws attention.
I don’t think I own a single red thing. My entire apartment, and almost all of my wardrobe, is blue/green/purple/silver. Except for some wood things, which are brown. I plan to fix that someday, when I have the time. Still, I guess I can’t be a real harlot.
Still, speaking of the connotation of red clothes, this Discworld quote seemed appropriate:
“But you know what they say about women who wear red boots”
“Just so long as they also say they’ve got dry feet,” said Nanny cheerfully.
“Revere hair? Like in prayer?
Nope, town on the North Shore. ”
This made me LMAO. I grew up in Saugus. I dated Reveah boys when I was a teenager. I never mastered the Reveah girl hair though. Not enough Aqua Net in the world to get my hair to do that.
I grew up in a very *red* house…my mother loved it and every room was decorated in red….lots of eagles and maple and colonial stuff. I hate the color. I dont wear it because it makes me look like death warmed over. But I also don’t like it in my environment….the energy is too jumpy or something.
“Revere hair? Like in prayer?
Nope, town on the North Shore. ”
This made me LMAO. I grew up in Saugus. I dated Reveah boys when I was a teenager. I never mastered the Reveah girl hair though. Not enough Aqua Net in the world to get my hair to do that.
I grew up in a very *red* house…my mother loved it and every room was decorated in red….lots of eagles and maple and colonial stuff. I hate the color. I dont wear it because it makes me look like death warmed over. But I also don’t like it in my environment….the energy is too jumpy or something.
Knowing how the wingnut mind works, I think someone has a lesbian crush on Amanda.
My pussy-eating skills, tarnished by years of straightness, suck.
I still don’t understand what’s this red business is about. The price of red dye is similar as any other color to make. So accessibility is a function of designer/brand. Contrast to ancient time (where the term comes from)
1. rare dye (purple red, indigo) are only affordable by the upper class.
2. Colored (yellow) silk was and still is some of the most expensive and exotic garment.
not many people can afford these before synthetic dye. Unmarried woman couldn’t possibly afford them without somebody else paying for it. Classical literature is littered with women who wear dresses not of her class and almost always hinting material exchange for sexual favor.
So there was a point calling/marking woman by hinting the color/print of clothing.
but now? I don’t get it… It’s Dubya’s credit card economy. Charge that versace silk print leopard on it, baby. And let’s have a night out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrian_purple#Shades_of_Tyrian_purple_colour_comparison_chart
… the Tyrian hue … is considered of the best quality when it has exactly the colour of clotted blood, and is of a blackish hue to the sight, but of a shining appearance when held up to the light; hence it is that we find Homer speaking of “purple blood.”
———-
about red-scarlet. Let’s just say the south turn of 19th century wasn’t exactly center of world commerce and fashion. Referencing that story is pretty weak, imo. It requires every participants to know that relatively obscure story. Which in the end tells more about the name caller reading background than actual name calling skill.
I still don’t understand what’s this red business is about.
“No Mr. Green. Communism was just a red herring.”
But seriously, it’s all about the blood all over Amanda’s hands because she’s pro-choice.
Seriously. This is how the moronic brain operates.
Count me in as one of the many women coveting that dress right now.
Red is my favourite colour, I wear it more often than any other (unless you count blue, since I wear blue jeans almost every day– but that’s sort of neutral).
I wonder if the real issue with red is self confidence.
Seriously, all sorts of shit girls are given about dressing modestly, blending in, “appropriate” attire, is more or less training girls to be insecure and not want to be looked at. Which then makes them easy to control, with the threat of embarrassment.
At the other end of the age spectrum, we have the red hat society, who attire themselves on the basis of a poem about dressing how you want when you are too old to care about the opinions of others. Purple– the color of power– with red as a deliberately clashing attention-getter.
If you wear red, you are advertising only that you are not afraid of attention. Which implies you cannot be easily shamed into silence and compliance, either. It is *this* type of shamelessness upsetting– and causing envy?– among Amanda’s detractors.
“JEZEBEL”: the impact of dress color in that scene must have been severely diminished by the fact that it was shot in glorious black and white.
“GWTW”– I wondered what people were talking about, as I clearly remembered the green curtain-dress. I had forgotten about the deathbed scene. IIRC, that dress clung like spray paint.
And several of my gal-pals have already manifested LUST over the pictured frock, which I forwarded to them. Go, Oscar d’!
This isn’t quite as good as when Ann Althouse thought that “Feministing” was a portmanteau of “feminist” and “fisting,” but it’s not bad as a runner-up. Someone give Jill Stanek a consolation ribbon.
In Ireland, we actually have pregnancy counselling agencies that tell people the lies you see in that website as if they were fact (you have more chance to abuse children, you’ll have greater cancer risk, you’ll suffer from mental illness, etc etc etc). Of course, these aren’t regulated (read: shut down) so they are free to spread their lies, with all the wonderful money they get from rich businessmen who are also Catholic fanatics (with links to the local neo-nazis might I add!).
So yeah, how about those anti-choicer clowns huh? What a bunch of clowns.
If I dye my hair a very-unnatural burgundy red, am I a permanent harlot?
She also believes the Chinese eat fetuses. I’m not kidding.
No, Amanda, correction: I was thinking of blood.
No, Amanda, correction: I was thinking of blood.
So I stood up at my desk and glanced around the office. And saw four women in red (five if you count magenta). Thank you for reminding me I work in such an exciting environment; I’d quite forgotten.
Mm, I love red clothes. They’re great for my skin color and they make me feel like a superhero. I’ve also moved into hot eye-stabbingly neon pink. It’s a good feeling. I fought colors for a long time, being a bigger woman, but finally I’m relishing them.
Go, you and your red !
I noticed, via “The Daily Show with Jon Stuart” that on the same night the Hillary wore red, so did the First Lady but yet somehow her character was not questioned, I wonder why?
So women in red are whores, what about men who wear red ties are they pimps?
In her bio she claims that the terrible event was witnessing what she called a “live birth abortion,” which means an early induction. These are generally wanted pregnancies that are terminated due to severe birth defects or maternal health problems. Labor is induced early to preserve the mothers help. The child may live for a few hours, but dies shortly thereafter.
Disturbing as this may be, I doubt this was the cause of Stanek’s issues. She has serious problems dealing with death and with sex. My guess is that these subjects were taboo in her household and probably presented with a great deal of fear.
“You know who else wore red dresses? HITLER.”
…and so did J. Edgar Hoover. That’s because (according to historian emeritus J*nah G*ldberg) they were both radical libruls…
January 30, 2008 at 6:57 pm
I reminded her that the Nazis were actually in full agreement with her about abortion and birth control. I’m sure that went over well. Not sure, since she didn’t let it post.
Now Amanda, can’t you even tell the truth about this?
Not only did your post stay up, but I personally responded to it…shame on you.
As to the “Red” allusion…She meant that red is the color of the blood spilled by the millions of children that you have supported killing. Harlotry never even entered into it. Guilty conscience? Project much?
Now Amanda, Can’t you even tell the truth about this? Not only did your post stay up, but I personally commented on it…and as for the “RED” allusion? Jill was comparing the color red to the blood of the millions of babies you supported killing. Harlotry never entered into it. Guilty conscience? Project much?
That dress is so fetch!
Uh, meanwhile, doesn’t Laura Bush wear red? Because it, you know, doesn’t freaking matter?
Oh Maureen Dowd. Apparently, she missed the part where it said “We’ve detected one or more older versions of Newsbot software on your system. You will have to uninstall these before proceeding to install Newsbot 2000.”
[Uninstall Now] [Cancel]
I don’t own much red but my wife and I both wear an awful lot of black. Wonder what she’d have to say about that?
Revere hair? Like in prayer?
Nope, town on the North Shore.
Ah, Reveah. Big hair, Camaros driven by bottle-blonds named Donna. Wicked pissah. The Commonwealth’s own little slice of New Jersey.
Nah, Lauren- the “extra” scandal comes from if Chef wears the dress and you the shirt…
And hey, what about all of them-thar “RED States”???
As for Scarlett O’Hara, no one spoofed her better than Carol Burnett (paraphrase):
Ratt (Harvey Korman): What is that you’re wearing, Starlett?
Starlett (Burnett): Oh, I just saw it in the window and had to have it.
Wow! You really didn’t allow me to post? That is amazing! Sad, but amazing. By the way, here is your post, up on Jills, right where you left it…
You do realize that the Nazis agreed with you about abortion and birth control, right?
Posted by: Amanda Marcotte at January 30, 2008 5:35 PM
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2008/01/amanda_preaches.html#comments
I have been reading about you for months now, and was shocked to find out you were so young and beautiful…It makes me sad. So very, very sad….
You were in moderation, weirdo. And while I hit “post”, I didn’t see it go up. I’ll admit that I didn’t look too hard in the waves of crazy that are the comments there. You guys literally have no idea how fucked up you come across to sane people. Like Jill here, saying she was thinking of blood. Do you know how weird that sounds to people whose minds aren’t completely warped by religion? To a normal person, that sounds like Jill Stanek has managed to confuse the sins of being female, not hating yourself for it, and murder. It doesn’t convince me that she’s not freaking out because of my harlot-colored red sweater. It makes it seem all the more insane. She needs help, not religion.
Yeah, bummer that you’re young and beautiful Amanda. Kind of hoped you were an old hag.
WTF?
You know who else wore red dresses? HITLER.
WIN! for emjaybee.
Jill Stanek also believes that “pro-aborts” are part of the “homosexual agenda” because they all want “sex without consequences”.
Oh yeah. If a woman gets HPV, it’s because she deserved it either because she’s a slut or the woman couldn’t keep her husband from not cheating on her.
Harlotry never entered into it.
There’s nothing about being anti-choice that isn’t about punishing the harlots, so you are grossly incorrect.
A couple posts below the “Red! Harlot! Blood! I’m fucking crazy!” post, she had a post where she was putting up pictures of women going into an abortion clinic. They were all later in their pregnancies, too, which means that she was getting off on shaming women who, by and large, were getting medically necessary abortions.
Yeah, bummer that you’re young and beautiful Amanda. Kind of hoped you were an old hag.
At least then she wouldn’t be wasting the country’s most valuable resource! TEH BABIEEEZ could be issuing from her young and fertile womb in a steady stream AS WE SPEAK! Beautiful white christian babies tumbling out of her vaj end over end! CAN’T YOU JUST SEE IT???
Amanda,
I was very respectful when I came here. What’s with the name calling? Why don’t you come over to jill’s and actually “discuss” things. We have rules over there. Everything gets posted without being checked first, no one uses foul language, and you can attack an idea but please don’t attack the person. It’s all very mature and civil. We’d love to have you. And any of your friends that you care to bring along.
Abortion is a serious issue. At Jill’s people that are prochoice as well as pro life are able to converse without falling into the habit of attacking each other. It’s really quite refreshing.
Honestly, there is no need for so much anger. We are all over 21, know the English language and so much more can be accomplished if we sit and talk.
Thank you for allowing me to speak my piece.
Wierdo. (MK)
You can’t handle being called “weirdo”? Do you need to loosen your corset, lest you develop the vapors? Oh the trials and tribulations of being a real, feminine woman in these wicked times!
Scarlett’s party dress went from the book’s green to the movie’s red on David Selznick’s order, and for the reason you’d expect: he wanted to play up the harlot-y colour association, i.e. the “scarlet” woman. And I know this because I am a repository of GWTW trivia.
I wore a brilliant red dress to the only high school prom I attended. I sometimes show my bosom before three o’clock as well. Can I be a scarlet woman, too?
Thank you for allowing me to speak my piece.
You can just hear the suffering martyrdom. Like Joan of Arc, she is! Defender of the adorable pink-cheeked babies from the hordes of rapacious young women whose vile, vile vaginas leak the crimson stain of their wicked dalliances! Their sinful breasts heaving with unchristian lust!
Um,
Amanda,
Those women in the picture (haven’t you graduated to actually reading the material…still looking at the pictures?) are going into George Tillers clinic. He has been accused of NOT doing late term abortions for medically necessary reasons…that was the point of the post.
Which you’d know if you’d read it. The whole point was that he is being accused of performing late term abortions illegally. There are people on our site that have a hard time believing that anyone is getting abortions this late in their pregnancies and the pictures were put up to show that indeed they were.
Why are you so angry all the time? Isn’t there some way that you could respond without being nasty?
“At Jill’s people that are prochoice as well as pro life are able to converse without falling into the habit of attacking each other. It’s really quite refreshing.”
I’m sensing “Jill’s” must be a “Republican Compromise” kind of joint: You’re free to say whatever you want as long as you acknowledge we’re right and you’re wrong. And if you use one of those gutter words, we’ll just have to keep you away from the nice Stepford People who are having a refreshing discussion - about how “pro-life” is the only acceptable position…
I bet it’s really stimulating over there…
Mk,
The part you’re missing here is that nobody is interested in what you’re saying. People only pay attention to you for the express purpose of mocking you.
Why would anybody go to Jill Stanek’s web page to listen to a word you say. Your history of lying, making shit up, being completely disconnected from reality and that’s just in addition to hating women and queer folks?
Oh, you mean this:
On Friday, November 3, 2006, Bill O’Reilly featured an exclusive segment on his show, The O’Reilly Factor, saying that he has an “inside source” with official clinic documentation indicating that George Tiller performs late-term abortions to alleviate “temporary depression” in the pregnant woman.[10] According to reporting data provided to the Kansas Board of Healing Arts for the year 1998, all of the post-viable “partial-birth” abortion procedures performed in Kansas during that year were performed because “the attending physician believe[d] that continuing the pregnancy [would] constitute a substantial and irreversible impairment of the patient’s mental function.”[11] Tiller responded to O’Reilly’s statements by demanding an investigation into the “inside source” through which the information was leaked, suggesting that Phill Kline, then the Kansas Attorney General, was responsible. Kline denied the charge.
Five seconds with Wikipedia. Isn’t there some way you could respond without being incredibly ignorant?
“Why are you so angry all the time? Isn’t there some way that you could respond without being nasty?”
Yeah, Ofmarc, why ARE you angry all the time? All us Jillbots are trying to do is make sure you fulfill your genetic destiny…
So in other words no, she posted pictures of women aborting wanted babies with horrible health problems that wouldn’t have survived birth. Btw, Dr. Tiller’s clinic is one of the few to offer funeral services for the grieving mother.
You guys really are heartless, ignorant and cruel.
Not really. I’m a republican and I consider Stanek and the rest of her Illinois fucktards to be repulsive.
Okay,
Well, I gave it a shot. I’ve posted here a number of times this morning and have not received on serious response…meet you at Jill’s if you feel like actually “talking”…
Short version:
The data provided was from 1998. The program was in 2006. No charges were ever filed, no investigation ever turned up anything.
Here’s your serious response:
What evidence do you have against George Tiller other than unsubstantiated allegations from eight years ago that lead you to believe it’s ok to post pictures of women going in for late term abortions and condemn them when you know absolutely jack about their situations? Are you incapable of pity or empathy?
Ah, the irony that the whole “ZOMG! LADY IN RED!” freak out comes right around “National Wear Red Day”, heavily promoted by none other than that evil, anti-American icon Macy’s.
And as for the “red clothing = blood” thing, that’s such a common symbol in Western culture. You see it in the Scarlet Letter–wait, no…the term “scarlet women”…uh…”red light district…no, that’s not it…er…
Of course! the Redcoats! er…wait…never mind.
Support cultural literacy, because a meme is a terrible to waste.
Anti-choicers are universally freaks.
Stanek’s a freak, mk’s a freak, the whole damn bunch: freaks.
I have been reading about you for months now, and was shocked to find out you were so young and beautiful…It makes me sad. So very, very sad….
Now you just sound like a creepy stalker, MK.
What does “Ofmarc” mean? Google gives no clues. Is this some kind of anti-abortion slang?
Well, I gave it a shot. I’ve posted here a number of times this morning and have not received on serious response…meet you at Jill’s if you feel like actually “talking”…
What, you mean you can’t recognize your own creepy hatred turned back against you?
What does “Ofmarc” mean?
Not sure who Marc is, but I assume it’s a reference to “The Handmaid’s Tale.”
“What does “Ofmarc” mean?”
Reference to The Handmaid’s Tale, which eerily, and scarily predicts an all too possible future for America.
Fertile women who were not wives were given to powerful men to act as birth vessels. As such they did not have their own name, they belonged to the man, hence a name like Offred, literally “Of Fred”.
Marc is Amanda’s BF…
…and all “handmaids” were required to wear red, signifying their (low) place in the society of Gilead…
I tend to look better in black, blue, and some shades of green (probably my favorite non-blue color).
I do like red on some people, and I know several women who would look fantastic in that dress. If it’s from the 1980s, well, so be it. Some things just look good.
I was very respectful when I came here. What’s with the name calling?
You want to force me to have one baby after another to punish me for just general female evilness. That’s not respect. I do believe that’s hatred.
Those women in the picture (haven’t you graduated to actually reading the material…still looking at the pictures?) are going into George Tillers clinic. He has been accused of NOT doing late term abortions for medically necessary reasons…
And I accuse you of having purple skin. Doesn’t make it true.
Face it. You guys got off on looking at those pictures of women who are, by and large, very sad about what they have to do and also physically ill. It’s fucking sick and perverse. You. Need. Help.
Are you incapable of pity or empathy?
I would say yes. I’d love to bet money that some of the readers at Jill’s place were rubbing one out while looking at those pictures, but I’m fairly certain no one would bet against me.
Weirdo (your nic is in defiance of the usual “i before e” rule):
I may be speaking to the door here, since presumably you’ve already flounced, but here goes anyway. You might have better luck soliciting “serious” answers from the posters here if you’d lose the treacly, condescending tone that permeates your every comment. That pious, pursed-lipped air of faux concern over Amanda’s “anger” does nothing but provoke.
Oh, wait. That’s what you wanted, wasn’t it?
Yeah, it’s not actually provoking. It’s such obvious bait. The more he holds out the bait about me being “angry”, the more I find myself sort of amused. And then I feel guilty for laughing at the freaks, because I seriously think they’re troubled. It’s a shame to see so many people consumed by this strange anti-choice perversion.
my living room is red. i hope that counts for something!
I keep wondering how long it’ll be before their “anti-choice perversion” percolates into full-blown “shoot up the elementary school to kill all the baby sluts” madness.
I’ll be surprised if they can hold out ’til after the election, but once Election Day is over, Jill and her stooges are gonna start acting like cultists in a Lovecraft story…
You think it’s a he? I dunno, I assumed it was a “good woman” who can ignore her own howling self-hatred if she holds herself up as better than the rest of us common guttersluts.
And then I feel guilty for laughing at the freaks, because I seriously think they’re troubled.
Don’t. They’re not mentally ill in a way that makes them not responsible for their actions. They’re just incredibly, breathtakingly self-absorbed and desperate to find reasons to think themselves superior to other people. It’s pitiable from a distance, but up close pity only gets in the way of realizing how dangerous they are.
Gosh, Amanda, you’d be so pretty if you’d just smile!
And shut up.
And get pregnant.
What, don’t you want all the boys to like you?
(What’s with responding to women who argue with comments about their looks? I’ve been annoyed by that for nearly 30 years, and I still don’t “get” the point.)
Long thread, I know, but I just ran across these Fundie Pickup Lines:
You look like the whore of Babylon—and I mean that in a good way.
Amanda, how do you feel about a viable fetus with Down’s Syndrome being aborted? Just curious, because that’s one of the reasons Tiller performs post-viability abortions.
Knowing how the wingnut mind works, I think someone has a lesbian crush on Amanda.
My pussy-eating skills, tarnished by years of straightness, suck.
Amanda, don’t be afraid. It’s like riding a bike, it will come back to you in no time.
manda Marcotte
January 30, 2008 at 10:48 pm
In the movie, Scarlett wears a red dress to Melanie’s death bed under the command of Rhett, who wants to humiliate her for her faithless heart. So really, it has nothing to do with women’s own desires. It’s about shaming Scarlett for her sexual proclivities.
Amanda, if your going to quote “Gone With the Wind”, please get it correct.
Rhett forced Scarlet to wear the infamous red dress to Ashlie’s birthday party that Melanie was throwing. He did that to humiliate her in front of their friends. People thought that Scarlet and Ashlie were having an afair.
In the scene where Scarlet goes to Melanie’s death bed, she is wearing a black dress.
I assumed it was a he, because the comment about my looks. Most variations on that theme come from men, mostly because they’re trying to reassure themselves and everyone else that they’re Real Men. Feministing had a variation on the theme. They found this post by an anti-choice dude who put up a bunch of pictures of teenage anti-choice women and pro-choice women of all ages and tried to use that to “argue” that anti-choicers were hotter. It was really creepy, especially the uniform teenage-ness of the girls he found acceptable for impregnating. (Since, you know, you shouldn’t do it unless you’re making a baby.)
Heh, midnight. As you can see, I haven’t seen the movie in more than 10 years. Nor do I really care to. The racism puts my teeth on edge.
Mom, I think it’s best if children with Down’s are only born to parents who are up for the job of raising those children. If someone really feels like she can’t do it, I believe her.
Hey this is just like fourth grade. Name calling and gross out pictures!
I can win this, really. Nevermind comparative literature, deconstructing ideology or iconography. It’s GOATSE.CX time!
Plus what’s the use having friends in art school sending tons of gut wrenching weird art.
Amanda said:
Mom, I think it’s best if children with Down’s are only born to parents who are up for the job of raising those children. If someone really feels like she can’t do it, I believe her.
Hear, hear. And I would add, if someone feels as though she is not up to the task of raising a child for whatever reason, she is the person to best asses her situation and make a realistic choice for her own sake as well as that of her potential child.
Amanda:
I was merely pointing out that you got the two scenes mixed up.
And just so you know, MK is not a bad person. I am pro-choice, and I am on Jill’s site quite frequently.
Posting pictures of women who may or may not have had abortions is despicable, But Jill really hit bottom last month.
A Spanish reporter posing as a medical professional secretly taped footage of a woman having an abortion.
Jill posted the stolen footage of the women’s splayed crotch - not to mention her face (we must out those babykilling whores!)
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2007/12/asi_se_aborta_e.html#comments
If that wasn’t enough to satisfy her readers masturbatory fantasies, she also posted “crush porn” photos of a woman killing a puppy by stomping it under a high heel:
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2008/01/post_57.html
Sorry, anyone who pulls the clucking, “And you’d be so fuckable if you were submissive” routine in an attempt to shame me and bait me is not “not a bad person” in my book. Sorry. He might have redeemable qualities, but there’s a fundamental lack of respect for women that underlines the immediate need to throw out that bait.
Beast, I’ll take your word. I can’t click over and see that. Yuck.
STFU and blow, MomofSpecialOlympicsAthlete.
My daughter is also a SOA and while I have met really great parents/caregivers/teachers at the events, I have also met sanctimonious fucks like you. Guess what? YOUR CHILD’S DISABILITIES ARE NOT ABOUT YOU!!!
YOU are not a better person because YOU are the mother of a disabled child; YOU ARE A MOM. THAT’S ALL. YOUR CHILD IS JUST THAT- A CHILD.
You are not any better than anyone else, here or anywhere else. Get over yourself.
Late to the party, again!
Oh, they are SO back. My husband took me to Wicked last night so I had to go to the mall and find something not “mommy” to wear. (Got a great deal at Carsons!) I passed Express on the way in, and the window was full of leggings with tube tops and long t-shirts/short dresses. Black leggings. Bright yellow and pink. Some white.
It looked like it did back when it was “Limited Express”, i.e., when it opened.
I didn’t go in, but when I tried on a jacket elsewhere, it had shoulder pads!
I’ve noticed hair and makeup ads looking all 80-ish for a while now. Christian on “Project Runway” kills me b/c he’s so in love with the 80s.
Yeah, I like the dress. A lot. The 80s were good. OK, the shoulder pads got a little out of control at the end, and yeah, the hair got crazy, too, but they had just invented mousse and we were still learning how to work with “product”. The 80s were a hell of a lot more attractive than the 70s, which have been retro-forced on us since the 90s.
I assumed it was a he, because the comment about my looks.
Ah. I read it more as the tsk-tsking of a middle aged woman, if you see what I mean. “What a terrible waste” and all that. More to shame you on not fulfilling your role than to imply that if you were more submissive, you just might attain the cherished status of a worthy vessel. Tho’ I probably just assumed it was female because mk’s posts so far aren’t condescending enough for a typical anti-choice male.
As for Down’s syndrome babies? I don’t think most people were signing up for a child they’d have to take care of the rest of their lives when they got pregnant. I do med mal cases with people whose doctors’ incompetence gave their children brain damage, and the shit they have to go through is unbelievable, in order to provide a pretty questionably fulfilling life for the poor kid. Yeah, I think it ought to be the parents decision.
Amanda, I’m sorry. This is your site and I respect that. I usually try to just be silly and friendly- but I’m so mad I’m shaking right now.
It’s HARD to raise a disabled child- but it’s hard to raise an NON-DISABLED child. If I EVER had a waiver or feelings of ambivalance regarding my pro-choice stance, it’s GONE.
Mom of Special Olympian
My brother also has DS and is a Special Olympian.
Personally, I find it sad that people with Down Syndrome are being killed off. 80-90% of all DS fetii are aborted.
I like the idea of parents of handicapped children offering to talk to pregnant women and explain the realities of life with a retarded person. I think if there was more knowledge, there were be fewer abortions for DS alone.
THAT SAID–
Under no condition do I think a woman should be forced to carry a baby to term under any circumstance. Pregnancy is hard and should only be attempted by the willing.
And when I say I like the DS parent support groups, it’s only if it’s offered as a true choice, not as a hoop to jump through to get an abortion.
I don’t think DS is generally such a horrible thing, but I don’t know what anyone else can handle. I adore my brother and believe I’m a better person for having him in my life, but that’s me and my experience.
My mom has never wanted me to feel like I have to take care of my brother, though I always willingly accepted the responsibility. He has a friend whose parents had another child purposely to take care of him. Different people, different choices.
Forcing anyone to continue a pregnancy is just wrong. And no one deserves to know *why* a woman is having an abortion unless she feels like sharing her reasons. It’s a private medical procedure protected by HIPPA. Women shouldn’t have to wear scarlet “21″s in penance for not wanting to or not being able to handle a special needs child.
It’s cool, louise. You have a right to be mad. I mean, she’s exploiting her own child’s disability in service of slut-shaming. It’s despicable. Dr. Tiller has been shot, and his clinic has been firebombed. He and his staff are under constant danger. But they get up and go to work every day because they believe in helping people. The clinic offers top-notch service, all sorts of grief counseling and support groups so women who have to get late term abortions don’t feel they’re the only ones. They don’t deserve this hatred.
Plus, from a purely utilitarian perspective, letting someone have an abortion because the parents can’t handle it beats having the kid and then going nuts and killing them when you can’t handle the pressure, or giving him/her up to the state for a life of being shuttled around institutions and frequently abusive foster homes.
When abortion was illegal? Then people really DID kill babies. Dead embryos or dead infants? Take yer pick, but the fantasy of having neither is just that, a fantasy. And a massively dangerous one to lots and lots of people at that.
A few months back I was reading something on Feministing about Dr. Tiller and the latest attacks on his clinic, and I was shaking with anger, so I mailed him a little bit of money with a nice card, thanking him and his staff for the work they do.
He sent me a card, thanking me for brightening his day and letting me know that the money would go towards fixing a window someone had smashed.
I can’t imagine. He’s a saint.
Thanks for answering my question Amanda and Caren. I didn’t see this in your responses, so if you could, how do you feel about abortion on a possibly viable fetus with Down’s Syndrome? Not all the reasons that Tiller aborts late-term are for fatal fetal abnormalities. If you feel you have already addressed this in your previous responses, then I apologize.
Over at Jill’s they claim that women who abort are more likely to be child abusers. Even if that WERE true, isn’t it better that they abort rather than bring more children into the world, just to be abused?
They said it should be the parents decision whether they could handle it, and don’t want to judge people who decided they couldn’t, Mom. It was pretty damn clear.
MomofSpecialOlympicsAthlete - I think it’s safe to say that most of the people here believe women should be able to abort possibly viable fetuses for ANY reason. Though you’d be hard pressed to find one who’s doing it because she needs to fit into her prom dress.
ok, thanks SarahMC and UIP.
MOSOA
I thought I made it clear, but here goes again: Personally, I don’t think DS is enough of a reason to abort. And I thought about it and was relieved that all 3 of my kids didn’t have it so I didn’t have to make such a decision.
The fact that I acknowledged the option during my pregnancies doesn’t diminish my brother’s worth at all. It’s a reflection on me and my current family situation and obligations.
I wish more people had more information available and that DS didn’t frighten people so much. I think the abortion rate would go down if more people were more informed. But it wouldn’t stop people from aborting DS fetii. And DS can come with a whole rash of health issues my brother avoided such as heart and esophagal problems. That should factor in.
With my first child, we were worried about Edward’s Syndrome, which generally causes fetal death or death by the 1st year. Everyone at my OB’s office worked quickly to get me the secondary tests, and no one mentioned abortion, but I knew that they were trying to get the results in time to give me the option. He didn’t have it, and I wouldn’t have aborted if he had, though I can understand why another woman in another situation would. To me, however long he lived, that’s his life. To another, the thought of carrying a child that won’t live might be too much, and they could choose to terminate and try again.
If I knew someone who aborted for DS, I would probably think less of her. But I think less of people when I find out they are Republicans or donate to PETA. I’m still friends with them.
People make different choices, and when it comes to bodily autonomy, I have to side with the woman, even if her choice is not the one I would make.
Off topic: hearing stories likes Caren’s makes me even happier I got myself sterilized. I would never, ever, want to be in that situation. Some people just can’t deal with it. I’m totally one of them.
Caren, I agree that there needs to be more info on Down’s Syndrome made available to the general public.The unknown is where alot of the fear comes from,imo. Thanks for your thoughtful response. I got involved in the prolife movement out of concern about this very issue. Now that my prolifism has been revealed, I think I’ll exit while things are still civil. lol
Mom, it seems like you’re just trying to paint some women as horrible baby-killers who do it for the hell of it, whether intentionally or unintentionally. If a woman is having an abortion that far along she generally has a reason for it. Maybe after a long time of debating she realises she won’t be able to provide the child with everything a born baby deserves. Maybe adoption isn’t the way to go in her eyes because of all the horror stories we hear about it. Regardless, it’s not our place to tell a woman in that situation what she can or can’t do. Circumstances don’t magically change because the child-to-be is disabled in some way. Some women will choose to have such a child, others won’t. It kinda irks me though that a former classmate of mine is anti-choice only because while her mother was pregnant there was a chance that she would be special needs and the doctor dared mention the possibility of abortion. It’s awesome that she turned out without needing extra attention but there’s a chance she could have, and I’m not sure her mother wouldn’t be regretting it about now that she’s divorced and struggling with three children (two in college, one in private school). A special needs child would put a major kink in that as they’re barely making ends meet as it is.
Mom - Relax, we’re all still civil here. I do want to know what your opinion is on things like the infanticide rings prevalent prior to legalized abortion. I’m sure that was even more common with babies born with DS or other problems. As we know (the study came out a few months ago) countries with illegal abortion have no fewer abortions than countries where it’s legal, they just have more dead women from unsafe procedures.
I understand your position and sympathize with it, but I don’t see how pushing for illegal abortion is going to cause anything but suffering. How do you address that?
Revealed? hahahahahhaha :::snort::: heeee :::ahem:::
I’m not sure whether mk, midnite and MOSOA are male, female, or even one collective entity, but their collective mental age is about 10.
Ooooopsie. I think that might have been uncivil.
Remember Italian Ice, Jeff?
Of course.
How about Richie’s slush? Yum!
Tricia, I am a female prolifer who is in her late thirties. I have not posted under any other name.
As I suspect, Mom is dishonest, disingenuous, and generally full of shit. Your assumption we are stupid reveals more about you than us, Mom. You got a good answer, so you just ask the question again as if we were too stupid to get it the first time? WTF? I was trying to be nice and polite to you, too.
You really don’t get how ridiculous it is that you sit around feeling self-righteous and judging Dr. Tiller, who is seriously a hero you can’t hold a candle to. He helps people, under dangerous circumstances that your buddies and quite possibly yourself create. It’s really vile, it really really is.
Betcha a dollar she never responds to my comment.
Also, Mom if you think we were so stupid that your, um, “ploy” about hiding your anti-choice beliefs was effective and that’s the only reason people were polite, then you’re kind of dumb. We knew that you were a concern troll. But sometimes it’s useful to reply to concern trolls not for their sake, but for the sake of anyone reading who might not be aware of how little anti-choicers really think things through.
Of course she won’t, UIP. She created an excuse to avoid actually thinking.
Amanda, I was making a joke when I commented about my prolifism. I knew that you knew I was prolife. Sorry if I offended you. For the record, I found your answers to be polite and respectful.
It’s also worth noting that the hyper-focus on “viability” is a giant red herring. For one thing, the percentage of abortions that are late term is a tiny percentage of overall abortions. And the percentage of those that are anywhere near this line that anti-choicers call “viability” is even smaller. The fact that a small percentage of very premature babies survive doesn’t set this hard and fast line called “viability”. And it’s cruel to suggest that it does. Why? Because most women who give birth to babies deemed “viable” by crazy anti-choicers are in fact going to see those babies die. Raising false hopes in service of a woman-hating political agenda is right up there with exploiting the problems of the disabled in service of a woman-hating agenda and guilt-tripping women who have to abort very wanted pregnancies in service of a woman-hating agenda.
The focus on later term abortions was a calculated political strategy to remove the health exceptions required by Roe v. Wade. Remind yourself of that every time an anti-choicer brings it up. The first priority they have is making sure that women who need access to abortion so they don’t die or lose their eyesight or carry around a dead fetus can’t have it.
Hey, Mom! You’re back! So, what’s your response to my very reasonable concern that outlawing abortion will, in fact, do nothing for your concerns and most probably make them worse?
Btw, Amanda,
If you’re as sure about not having kids as I am (and it sounds like it from what i’ve read before) then I heartily recommend Essure. No invasive surgery, not much pain, awake but pleasantly drugged during the procedure, and my insurance paid for the whole thing. And I will never have to worry about being trapped by my reproductive organs again.
Hey, I posted another comment but am not sure if it’s in moderation or something. I was going to shill Essure and ask MomofSpecialOlympicsAthlete whether she was going to respond to my comment.
Seriously though, check out Essure. I’m saving mucho dollars not being on the pill, and the college days of the cold hand of fear clamping around my heart with every late period are long gone.
Having looked at the post you linked, I think Stanek is referring to “Red” as in “Far left” (Commie!!), rather than red = harlot. No less of a maroon, though (ha ha, that’s red, too!!)
It wouldn’t do you any good to switch to pink, she’s just be calling you a pinko.
I would be very interested to know where they got the photo of the rubbish bin with all those identical, very late-term foetuses, all around the same level of development you’ll notice. Either it’s photoshopped or it comes from some weird source because such late-term abortions are the rarest category, at least they are here in Oz, I think it’s the same in the US. That does not look like a real-life surgical rubbish bin to me.
UIP, I will respond. My son just got home from school so I will post later. Peace.
I never have understood the anti-choicers. What do they expect? A group of people who talk about choice and reproductive justice (including birth control, adoption, open adoption, better support for single parents, parental leave, healthcare, daycare…stick around long enough and its all there) are going to say what exactly, other than people should make the best choices for themselves?
I wonder if concern trolling (as well as for disruption purposes) has its roots in a strange authoritarian mindset where they somehow expect the blogger or regular comment writers to tell them exactly what the ‘correct’ course of action is. It seems so unsatisfying for some people to get answers that aren’t ethical/moral absolutes. Nevermind hearing opinions about choice (’let the woman decide’ = let someone possibly make the ‘wrong decision’), they want to hear a definite ‘this is the way things are, for all people, at all times, in all situations’ so they can have vapors over the certain, definite ‘wrongness’ of it all.
From Kinky Boots, my favorite quote on the color red:
“Burgundy. Please, God, tell me I have not inspired something burgundy. Red. Red. *Red*. *Red*, Charlie boy. *Red*! Is the color of sex! Burgundy is the color of hot water bottles! Red is the color of sex and fear and danger and signs that say, Do. Not. Enter. All my favorite things in life”.
Helen January 31, 2008 at 3:40 pm
I would be very interested to know where they got the photo of the rubbish bin with all those identical, very late-term foetuses, all around the same level of development you’ll notice. ”
you mean for blogging purposes? google image. (turn off filter for better result) Otherwise, digital camera and access to medical facility is fairly easy.
BTW, that Stanek person is a piece of work, she has several top search ranking. talking about freakish.
http://images.google.com/images?q=fetus&gbv=1&hl=en&start=20&sa=N
——
On serious note:
there is some serious aspect that everybody soon has to answer, We are on the brink of able to create artificial embryo/body part.
Soon everybody has to decide what exactly is “freaky” Is growing a liver/skin patch OK? How about entire human body without brain? is it still OK? Maybe grow human with limited mental capacity for labor use?
This is not some distant future fantasy. Simple tissue engineering are here. Organs growing are in the making, so is entire genome clone. We are quickly mastering all technology necessary to artificially clone a complex living creature.
Somebody better get serious about “cloning” and synthetic biology questions.
Amanda Marcotte January 31, 2008 at 3:08 pm
It’s also worth noting that the hyper-focus on “viability” is a giant red herring. ”
I think it is time to separate the “biology” from the social function/politics.
Or at least we have to note that biosynth is about to reach a level where “nature/nurture” is not accidental. We have the capacity to grow artificial embryo. (my wild guess would be within a decade. Since we already able to do nuclei transfer)
Theoretically , there is no reason to not believe an embryo can be reliably grown to mature stage. So, yeah… viability as independent biological system is only a technical issue.
At the same time, I never buy conservative jibe that they really care about ‘living’ thing. They are just knee-jerk Jesus freaks. Their dialectical totality is just soft racism. (ie. ask them about aborting or killing brown babies. They’ll be all for it.) These on top of cheering the war and bombing everything like Jesus would have done it. Just bunch of medieval troglodytes.
Hey all, tomorrow is the “Go Red for Women” American Heart Association campaign.
http://www.goredforwomen.org/.
Helen, I don’t think Stanek has enough going on upstairs to remember and reference the comsymp arguments of old. I’ve read her blog before and honestly, she’s sadly ignorant. Like she’s even ignorant by right winger standards. I even had some fun with her on the podcast because she engaged in gay-baiting and put up a video with a song from Queen all in one day. That’s high levels of cluelessness.
I am a female prolifer
no, honey, you are a pro-forced birther. the pro-choice position IS the pro-life position.
Mom? I’m still waiting for you to address my comment.
No, it’s “some people are still genuinely troubled by women.”
Full stop.
There’s even more interesting avenues than concern trolling the antis right back than going down the infanticide route. The hardcore antis are also anti-contraception. What that has to do with saving “babies”, I don’t know. The facade of concern over children is paper thin, really.
So where do the red-hat ladies fit in here?
UPI, do you have a link to that report that you referenced? I recall reading about it and having issues with the info in the report but I don’t have the link. As far as the US, I don’t believe that making abortion illegal will make the problems I site worse. The problems I sited being the high abortion rates of unborn children with disabilites. Are you telling me that 90% of mothers who get a Down’s diagnosis will resort to illegal abortion if that was their only option? I haven’t seen studies to support that point. Also,before abortion was made legal, 90% of abortions were done by doctors. The death rate from illegal abortions had been declining steadily in the years leading up to 1973. According to CDC, the number of deaths from illegal abortion were well under 200. I have heard prochoicers say that the deaths numbered in the thousands, but that is just rhetoric. If prochoicers had hard evidence of that, wouldn’t they shouting it from the rafters?
Kristen, call me what you want. It makes no difference to me.
Nancy Reagan wore a lot of red. Doubt they’d bash her.
You can shut your eyes as hard as you like, but just because you don’t “believe” something doesn’t make it untrue.
Here’s a link to get you started:
http://content.cdlib.org/xtf/view?docId=ft967nb5z5&chunk.id=d0e5529&toc.depth=1&toc.id=&brand=eschol
Here’s another lovely link. I would specifically direct your attention to the lowest chart on the page. Simply put, illegalizing abortion would likely drive the abortion rate up.
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/06/2/gr060203.html
Amanda - I’m sorry, but I have no idea what your last comment meant. Can you rephrase?
Sorry UIP, but that is written by a prochoicer with an obvious bias. How about answering I posted to you? Do you believe that mothers who get a Down’s diagnosis would abort at a rate of 90% if abortion was illegal? Abortion deaths pre-Roe were steadily declining to well under 100 according to the CDC. Do you want me to pull up the quote from a NOW president in the 1960’s that stated that abortion is no longer a dangerous procedure? It isn’t just my belief, it is a fact. I just posted evidence from two unbiased sources-CDC and NOW.
Mom, if you’re just concerned about the vanishingly small percentage of abortions that are terminating pregnancies where the baby will be disable, what are you anti-choice in general? Why does your concern over Down’s abortions translate into support for banning my right to take a birth control pill or get an abortion at 8 weeks?
So, you ignore facts when they go against your predetermined ideology. Figures.
Agreed, most illegal abortion will probably be safe, as long as women go to 3rd party practioners. Because most people who provide abortion are honorable people who believe in women’s right to self-determination, not the butchers that rule the imagination and justify the crazies attacking genuine heroes like Dr. Tiller.
But a lot of women will seek instead to self-abort, which is where the real danger comes in. Self-abortion attempts often involve douching with bleach or otherwise poisoning yourself in a desperate attempt to get the pregnancy out. Sure, a lot of women will survive this, but you set the bar too low. How many maimings do you find acceptable to have a law passed that will be largely disobeyed because it’s unjust?
Abortion should be legal not just because of safety concerns, though. It should be legal because no one should spend time in jail for the “crime” of believing women have a right to control their own bodies.
Here’s another question: How much time should a woman do who has an illegal abortion?
Amanda, I am a prolife activist. I abhor all abortions. I bring up the Down’s Syndrome example because it has special resonance with me. I don’t have an issue with birth control.
Amanda, you set the bar too low for women. Don’t you think that in this day and age women know the dangers of trying to perform a self-abortion? Do you honestly think that women need to be protected from themselves? As far as penalities for an illegal abortion, the whole point of the prolife movement is to save babies from death. We are not out to punish women, but to save children. Were women prosecuted pre-Roe?
I abhor all abortions. I bring up the Down’s Syndrome example because it has special resonance with me.
Nobody is going to force you to have an abortion. Do you think women should be forced to bear disabled children they don’t want?
Windy, children can become disabled at any point in their life. A child could have an accident or develop a disabiling disease. Parents could relinquish rights, but they can’t kill their newly disabled child because they don’t want him anymore. Wantedness is a condition that changes over time,from day to day, from year to year. I don’t think that someone’s life should depend on whether they are wanted.
Mom — no, they don’t. We still here horror stories about teenage girls in states requiring parental notification having their boyfriends beat them in the stomach with baseball bats in an attempt to induce a miscarriage, or attempting over-the-counter drug cocktails because they can’t get Plan B.
We talk to younger generations who actually do not know about the history of the coathanger and why it’s a pro-choice symbol.
But when it comes to their lives, women are very well-informed, because they have to live them every day. And if a woman decides to abort because she finds out that the fetus has DS, that’s her choice. Not all women have the physical, financial, and emotional resources to care for a special needs child. Women know what they are capable of. They don’t need people like you declaring what they are capable of, anymore than you need me to tell you what you’re capable of. You know. Women know. We need to trust that and understand that when a woman has an abortion, it’s because she knows.
I know pro-choice people who would carry a DS pregnancy to term.
I know “pro-life” people who aborted a healthy pregnancy because “their case is special.”
The choice should be available, and it should be respected.
We are not out to punish women, but to save children.
But you will do the former and not do the later. Look at any current anti-choice nation. Look at infant mortality and mother mortality. Look at abortion rates in the US pre-Roe compared to abortion rates now. Also, there were legal abortions in the US pre-Roe. Roe did not legalize abortion, it struck down any state law that banned it. That does not mean that there were no states with legal abortion.
Also, I challenge you to answer the things posited by this post of mine. How is your stance logical or legal in a world where you believe that abortion is murder? How do you make the distinction between a woman who gets an abortion to one who hires someone to kill somebody else,since, according to your rhetoric, there is no difference in the ultimate act.
they can’t kill their newly disabled child because they don’t want him anymore
But their “newly disabled child” is a born person. That’s the distinction. You’re the one with the logical defects in your argument, as you say there is no distinction at any time between an zygote/embryo/fetus and a baby outside of the womb.
Don’t you think that in this day and age women know the dangers of trying to perform a self-abortion?
Desperation breeds monsters.
I never have understood the anti-choicers. What do they expect? A group of people who talk about choice and reproductive justice (including birth control, adoption, open adoption, better support for single parents, parental leave, healthcare, daycare…stick around long enough and its all there) are going to say what exactly, other than people should make the best choices for themselves?
The anti-choicers get bored with the reason and actual arguments of the pro-choicers, and make up wild fantasies in which pro-choicers are, for one, “desperate to kill children” (actual quote from anti-choicer Nathan Sheets).
I don’t think that someone’s life should depend on whether they are wanted.
Then we are in agreement, since a fetus is not a “someone” yet. The decision to *have* a baby should depend on whether the baby is wanted.
Jack, the women aren’t the ones doing the actual killing. The abortionists are. There are already laws on the books for murder and accessory to murder. Governments already look at each individual case to determine what the charges should be. My goal is to save children and not punish women. However, if they commit an illegal act, there are already laws in place to deal with that. I am fine with that.
Jack, are you calling women who perform self-abortions monsters?
Jack, are you calling women who perform self-abortions monsters?
No, I’m calling self-abortion a monster. It’s why we need legal abortions, because where those don’t exist, women get desperate.
the women aren’t the ones doing the actual killing.
So, if I pay someone to shoot someone else, I get off scot-free in the courts, right? That’s how contract killing works?
Governments already look at each individual case to determine what the charges should be.
What does our government say in a contract killing?
My goal is to save children and not punish women.
Again, you will do neither.
Jack, please take another look at my post. I never said that women should get off scott-free. I believe women are smart enough to know the consequences of their actions,legal and illegal.
Thanks for the good debate all.
MomofSpecialOlympicsAthlete:
You are obviously a great mom and your child is lucky to have been born into a family like yours.
Were you always so strenuously against abortion, or did the birth of your child influence your position?
Mom, stop dodging direct questions.
Jack, you keep mentioning “contract killing”. A penalty for contract killing is the death penalty. I am strongly against the death penalty and have been for many years. Is this where you are going with this?
I believe women are smart enough to know the consequences of their actions,legal and illegal.
So, you believe women should be punished for having an abortion, then? I’m unclear what you mean by this. And, if you do, should just do what we regularly do in contract killings? Why not?
Jack, the women aren’t the ones doing the actual killing. The abortionists are.
Jack, are you calling women who perform self-abortions monsters?
Well, if they are doing the “actual killing”, why not?
Jack, you keep mentioning “contract killing”.
Define, specifically, how abortion according to your rhetoric is not a contract killing. What legal justification do you have for the assertion that it is different?
I am strongly against the death penalty and have been for many years.
Me too. Good on you. But life imprisonment is not the death penalty. What legal justification would you use to not give women any jail time, let alone life in prison, in the event they have an abortion?
And also, would you allow abortion in the event that the woman was raped?
Epistemology, I was prochoice for many years. It wasn’t one thing that made me switch, but a combination of factors. My experience with my son and my exposure to other children with disabilities being a major factor.
That site makes me sick. I’ve actually had what they so charmingly refer to a live birth abortion- my second child had NO chance of survival- none, zero, zilch. He had no kidneys, scoliosis, a hole in his heart, underdeveloped lungs, fluid on his brain, no primary sex characteristics, no anal opening, a foot that twisted backwards and the entire contents of his abdomen were outside of his abdomen. For 6 weeks I carried him, knowing he was going to die as soon as he was born, trying to keep from crying hysterically every time a well meaning stranger asked me about him, trying to work, trying to just survive. Finally I decided I could not do it anymore- I was a wreck, unable to be a good mom to the child I already had, and unable to do pretty much anything but cry. I induced labor at 27 weeks, and my son was born alive and died in my arms. It was horribly sad and traumatic, but it was absolutely the right decision for me, my husband and Kyle. When he was born, he had bruises on his face from where he was banging on my uterus because of the lack of amniotic fluid. Fortunately I was surrounded by caring, compassionate nurses who supported our decision, not the likes Of Jill Stanek and her evil minions. The absolute evil of posting those pictures of the pregnant women going into Dr. Tiller’s office is what made me sick. Everyday I’m reminded why I no longer subscribe to that particular batch of batshit insanity.
Wow, February Heart Health- Red Dress month must really mess them up.
Well, maybe not…
Oh and I have a child who I wouldn’t have if I hadn’t terminated my pregnancy, a little boy who I wouldn’t trade for the world. It doesn’t make me miss his brother any less, but it was a very positive and healing experience for me. I have so far managed to keep from beating him, although seeing as I apparently think children are disposable and are therefore quite likely to abuse him, someone should probably come take him away. Hell, might as well take his sister too. I mean let’s not think about the fact that I don’t even believe in spanking, it’s just a matter of time before I start abusing them. Fucking idiots.
*Red*! Is the color of sex!
U R doing it wrong. Use lube.
Jack, I never said that it wasn’t a contract killing. It is. There are laws on the books and I am perfectly fine with that. In any case, the law looks at the circumstances. Was the person coerced? Were they incapacitated? What was their age? (It isn’t about punishment. It is about protecting the most vulnerable among us. If the only way to make abortion illegal is to agree to keep the consequences the same as pre-Roe{when prosecutions were rare}I’d be fine with that) Like I said Jack, I am against the death penalty and that includes the children of rapists.
So, life imprisonment then for an 18 year old woman who gets pregnant and simply does not want to carry to term, then? And why not? She contracted to kill her baby, right? It isn’t about punishment, eh? Hilariously illogical.
Like I said Jack, I am against the death penalty and that includes the children of rapists.
Gross. There’s no more point in arguing with you. Once you’ve ceded that you would force raped women to carry to term, you’ve shown how misogynist you truly let yourself become.
am against the death penalty and that includes the children of rapists.
that’s vile, though par for the course.
Annejumps? Nathan Sheets? Oh, man, god times, good times. He’s been banned from every livejournal ever.
I was a six-month baby and I spent five months in an isolette. No pro lifers paid my medical bills. Where were they? When I was fifteen my parents had finally paid off the bills. Where were the pro birthers?
“Mom,” we’ve seen this disingenuous, inconsistent, condescending crap many times before. Thanking Pandagon commenters for the polite debate isn’t fooling anyone.
OH MY GOD!
IT’S ANOTHER SCARLET-CLAD WHORE DRENCHED IN ABORTION BLOOD!
WHAT SCUM!: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=58065
Ah the simultaneous:
Amanda, you set the bar too low for women. Don’t you think that in this day and age women know the dangers of trying to perform a self-abortion? Do you honestly think that women need to be protected from themselves?
and
Jack, the women aren’t the ones doing the actual killing. The abortionists are.
and
I never said that women should get off scott-free. I believe women are smart enough to know the consequences of their actions,legal and illegal.
Ok…. women are apparently smart enough to not perform their own abortions, (even if they’re desperate and they can’t find someone to perform it for them because its illegal and performing an abortion on someone carries a higher penalty than self inducing one? even though its murder?), but they aren’t murderers if someone else performs the abortion, only accessories to murder. Further, we shall all just have to rely on the justice system to appropriately punish women for their illegal actions depending on circumstances.
Its all for the sake of the children. No punishing of women here. Right? No one will really go to jail? No one will have an illegal abortion? No one will die? No one will face the choice of bringing a life into the world or not, and face jail time and sepsis and death too?
Because you have good intentions, and you’re polite, abortion is ‘abhorrent’, and you believe that people won’t do things that are illegal - its all okay?
Its not okay. What really made me pro choice?
http://www.cbctrust.com/nochoice/begin.html
Learning about illegal abortion from the people that lived through it.
sorry, screwed up the trollquotes.
MJ, that’s how the law works. The law looks at the circumstances of each crime and who actually committed the criminal act.
Anniejumps, not trying to fool you. My goal isn’t to join hands with you and sing the song of unity or common ground. I posted here out of pure curiousity. There is no common ground to be had between us.
The law looks at the circumstances of each crime and who actually committed the criminal act.
So, MOSOA-method is necessarily pro-life imprisonment. Else, MOSOA is fudging on her rhetoric.
By the way, I have a cousin with Down’s. I love her so much. And I think it’s despicable for you to use the fact that my aunt actually chose to give birth to her as a reason why abortion should be made illegal. You would use your child and my cousin as a prop to take away women’s right to bodily autonomy. Disgusting.
Women abort for numerous reasons, and they all boil down to either they can’t or they do not wish to carry to term.
There is no common ground to be had between us.
Ain’t that the truth. You should, perhaps, move to El Salvador. Anti-choice heaven.
Jack, I see you like to resort to personal attacks when you are losing a debate. Not very becoming….
Jack, do you think that prochoicers use Gerri Santoro as a prop? ‘Cause I do.
MJ, that’s how the law works. The law looks at the circumstances of each crime and who actually committed the criminal act.
So, yes, you would have women who get abortions imprisoned as murderers?
when you are losing a debate.
I’m losing a debate? Far be it from me to deign to question, but this is no debate. It’s you, positing that pro-choice people are condoning the murder of innocent people from on high. Whereupon, when forced with the conclusions on must make from your positing, you, like other anti-choice people, hem and haw and act like your hemming and hawing is answering the question. Debating your idiocy and lack of real world evidence besides “it wasn’t like that under pre-Roe conditions” (which again assumes that, pre-Roe, ALL abortions were illegal, and for the same reason, which is not the case). Personhood was not defined at conception in America, thus there was no reason to assume a contract killing pre-Roe.
Gerri Santoro
No, I do not. She, and others like her, would have benefited from a safe, legal abortion. This is basic logic.
By aunt CHOSE to have my cousin. SPECIFICALLY CHOSE to have her. She could have chosen not to. And both choices are deemed valid under pro-choice ideology. Only one ideology would have given her no legal option whatsoever. Taking away options from mothers leads to high infant mortality, high mother mortality, and negligent homes. This is easily shown by looking at any anti-choice nation. You can give platitudes all you want, but that does not constitute an argument. This is no debate.
By aunt
Damn it, I was angry. Should read “My aunt”.
Debating your idiocy and lack of real world evidence besides “it wasn’t like that under pre-Roe conditions” (which again assumes that, pre-Roe, ALL abortions were illegal, and for the same reason, which is not the case).
Should read: Debating your idiocy and lack of real world evidence besides “it wasn’t like that under pre-Roe conditions” (which again assumes that, pre-Roe, ALL abortions were illegal, and for the same reason, which is not the case) is not, in any rational sense of the word, debating anything worth debating.
MomofSpecialOlympicsAthlete January 31, 2008 at 8:02 pm
the whole point of the prolife movement is to save babies from death.”
It’s not a baby when it’s still in woman’s womb. (you can start ripping baby out of woman’s womb to protect them if you want. But I want to see you trying to pass such law.)
On balance, state and everybody else should be out of woman’s body when not asked for help. The danger of state over reaching is very real and dangerous.
If you think individual women cannot inform and decide for themselves, then I for one would like to pass a law declaring you stupid and be removed from society.. (hey, why stop at reproductive right? Let’s go all the way to genocide and genetic control.)
Jack, have any evidence that taking away the abortion option leads to negligent homes? Of course you can’t back that up because there is no evidence that legal aboriton prevents child neglect and child abuse. Has child abuse decrease since Roe? In the states that aboriton was illegal before Roe, has child neglect decreased since Roe?
Squashed, prochoicers are the experts on eugenics. Ever heard of Margaret Sanger?
Of course you can’t back that up because there is no evidence that legal aboriton prevents child neglect and child abuse
I will cede that my statement has no definitive evidence behind it…that I can find currently.
Squashed, prochoicers are the experts on eugenics. Ever heard of Margaret Sanger
Are we? Well, I suppose, then, that anti-choicers are the experts on bombing people and terrorism.
MOSA - If late-term abortions bother you (and Jill’s crew), so very much, then why are you doing your best to ensure there are more of them?
To wit: There are a good number of women out there with health conditions that might be exacerbated by a pregnancy, but not definitely so, who also do not want (more) children. When abortion is legal, most of these women, if they get pregnant, abort as soon as humanly possible. If abortion is not legal, that choice is taken from them, and you leave a woman with a pregnancy that could go sour at any moment, leaving her to make the heart-breaking decision to abort a late-term fetus to save her own life.
Why would you seek to make that more common?
Why would you seek to make that more common?
More importantly, if abortion for rape is not okay, it becomes questionable why anyone could say that abortion for the life of the mother is okay. Why should she be given precedence if the child might yet survive? Should she not be forced to keep on keepin’ on until the fetus is dead?
And yes, I am apalled too, I just think MOSOA and other anti-choice people like her are not thinking anything through.
Also, how much time should a woman serve for a miscarriage? Her body, her own personal body, killed her baby, according to MOSOA. How much time should she serve? And why is it any different than an abortion? I’ve heard pro-lifers say “affirmative killing” and all, but her body, subconciously or what-have-you, knows what it did, and it did it on purpose. Life imprisonment, eh MOSOA? Or maybe it was just negligent homicide? Depraved indifference?
JackGoff, I don’t have a link handy, but I remember Stephen Levitt’s Freakonomics has a section on the declining crime rate after the passage of Roe v Wade.
If I’m remembering correctly, he stated something to the effect that women have a tendency to self-select when pregnant and since abortion was legal and birth control was more widely accessible, women in dire circumstances would more likely abort than carry to term. So kids born post-Roe were generally born into more nurturing environments and thus less likely to commit crime.
You know I think anyone could look at countries like Nicaruagua or Ethiopia and see well their “pro-life” policies have served their national women and children.
MomofSpecialOlympicsAthlete January 31, 2008 at 10:58 pm
(let’s agree that this is not about woman or saving babies. Because if it is, you’d be screaming about war, poverty, children health care quality. A lot more women and children die that way than abortion or what not. From historical data and global statistic, improving womens health, sensible public policy, providing education, choice and lifelihood are far more effective reducing infant mortality.) But who can argue with statistic and numbers with wingnuts.
So, this is about bunch of Jesus freaks feeling very righteous about a cause.
I for one would like to see this proposal pronto:
1. Death penalty to all Jesus freaks people in health care industry who pass along false medical information. (Endangering public safety)
2. All pro-lifer with Jesus freak tendency and proven tied to violent individuals and organization be immediately detained and receive capital punishment.
3. All individuals and organization related to this activity should be classified as radical religious groups.
(Hey, you want fascist state, let’s have the real deal. I have no problem applying same logic against rightwingers. )
PS. even Nancy Reagan starts whining about stem cell research. I can guarantee you, once you need stem cell treatment or rare organ transplant when you get old, You’d be first in line……Screw the baby and chop it for spare parts already. (ie. Conservatives are not serious people. )
(Let’s see if I can pull bible thumping arguments next. It’s been awhile since I pull that gag. kinda rusty.)
Well, squashed, if you are being serious, I have to state my objection to any capital punishment. I’m against the death penalty in all cases, though I understand you may be trying to be facetious to make a point.
“So what do you think happens at the moment of fertilization? I mean, don’t you ever wonder at the enormity of it all? Something, some intanglible, unidentifiable thing happens, and that which was inanimate suddenly becomes animate. Something that was not alive, is suddenly alive. Aren’t you awestruck by that “something”…that life force? Doesn’t that make any difference to you at all?
I mean these questions sincerely…like when you stare into the ocean and realize how small you, or at the stars and realize how insignificant you are, or see a bird fly or a rainbow and simply marvel at the wonder of it all…that moment, that second, when life begins…I don’t know, it’s so HUGE! And unfathomable. And unknowable. And above me. And beyond my comprehension. I just feel that I owe that moment, that ability, the utmost respect…”(as quoted from Stanek’s site… one of the responses, in fairness; sorry I lost the tag)
What an interesting question: I thought you’d never ask. I believe that at the moment of conception two *living cells* one of which is *already* animate for crying out loud, kinda loose their inhibitions and swap genes. This is not something “intangible” or “unidentifiable”. It is well documented and well understood. It is totally tangible: I watched it in science class in ninth grade. It’s easy to identify: Suddenly, one of the spermatozoa clustering the egg goes away, losing it’s tail in the process unless I misremember.
Given that I am aware that 80% of fertilized human eggs will spontaneously abort one way or another, I can’t say that it makes a whole lot of difference to me. Chances are that whatever just happened isn’t going to mean squat in the Great Debate. “Mom” will never even know that she was.
And then we get lost in the “God is everywhere” crap, which is really out of place. There were some concrete questions of a nature that *can* be answered asked, and then we get here. So every fertilized egg has a Soul?! What about the 80% that aren’t going anywhere? Do they get souls too? Should be we flushing with holy water just in case?
That was tasteless, and I know it. It just makes so little sense! So God is all knowing… Why supply a soul to the “pre-born” that aren’t going to make it? Does the zygote have to implant to get one? What if it *still* spontaneously aborts? Is it the second trimester that really makes it? When? Because if I’m going to be flushing little fully soul-endowed pre-born “babies” down the loo, I’d like to know about it so I can at least dedicate their ickle souls to the Most Unclean when I do so.
Or here’s one: What if some female aborts a future abortion doctor? Is that still so wrong? Or if the female aborts a fetus that was going to miscarry had she just waited longer? Is that a sin or not? Was there a soul involved? Was it more or less traumatic for the mass of cells in question?
Do the masses of cells go to heaven? Do they get actual bodies and experiences to talk about or do they just stay where put, oozing redly?
*gasps* I think I’m done. I just… had to say my piece.
Julie, *big hugs* to you and your family.
I know your pain from a “younger sister” viewpoint. My best friend of almost 30 years (since high school) and her wonderful husband went through essentially the same experience with their second child a decade ago. You did very well sharing your experience here; that takes alot of strength. Again, hugs…
Epistemology, I was prochoice for many years. It wasn’t one thing that made me switch, but a combination of factors. My experience with my son and my exposure to other children with disabilities being a major factor.
Mom, you need to understand that that is your choice. Good for you. But it is not everyone’s choice. I’m fifty and still menstruating. If I were to have an accidental pregnancy I’d be much more likely to have a child with a genetic disability due to my age, but I’d also have a much harder time raising him/her, also because of how old I’d be once they were large and feisty youths.
Also, try to get your head around the fact that I love my two children, therefore, in hindsight, I’m very happy that I aborted twice in my youth - because I wouldn’t want any other children than the ones I have. this is in the way of a counterweight to those women who like to say “see, if you have an abortion you’ll never have children and you’ll have a lonely old age full of regret!”
Thirdly, we just had a case in the news of a newborn drowned in a caravan park toilet. What a great thing that the mother didn’t have an ABORTION, huh?!
Touche Jeff about my Margaret Sanger point. It does seem ironic that someone brought up genetic control though. We all know that the stats on child abuse have skyrocketed since the early 70’s. Isn’t child abuse considered a crime? That is one crime that have not decreased. That being said, I will move on now considering someone just made a death threat against me. Death threats even in jest are not funny and they do not make your side look good.
Oops, sorry meant to address my comment to Jack.
JackGoff
Thanks for posting that NYtimes article. I had always considered myself vaguely pro-choice. Simply in the sense that I personally have escorted 3 friends to the abortion doctor and have had several others confide in me their choice. Because I know them and know that they are good women who made very difficult but very necessary choices I’ve always felt that abortion should be legal and available. But when I read that article in the NYtimes magazine, it really solidified for me the need for women to have bodily autonomy in the law. It really goes beyond whatever you feel about abortion, whether it’s “Save teh babies” or “Save teh pregnant women.” It lays out the real dangers of state becoming involved in our medical choices.
On a funny side-note. When I first started reading and participating in blog comments about a year ago, the first place I stumbled upon was Salon Broadsheet. Man there are some misogynistic freaks overthere. And anytime I’d write something even vaguely feminist they’d bring up the spector of that evul Amanda Marcotte. I had no idea who she was or what she look like, but for some reason from the way they demonized her I always pictured her in a red dress singing “Whatever Lola wants. Lola gets.”
So Mom, in your utopia where a woman’s body becomes property of the state the moment she conceives, and a woman finds herself pregnant (maybe even through no fault of her own, although I’m sure plenty of people would line up to talk about how she was dressed provocatively), and she expresses her desire to seek an ilegal abortion and is “discovered” by the undercover panty-sniffer SWAT team… should she be turned into Child Protective Services? Since the “child” cannot be removed from her custody, should she simply be strapped to a table with a feeding tube and a catheter for the next 6-8 months until she delivers? Or should she just deliver the baby right from prison?
And again, if abortion is pre-meditated murder, did my friend who suffered multiple miscarriages commit multiple negligent homicide? What should her punishment be? Remember, you’re claiming that a fetus has full equal rights to humanity, and the “accidental” nature of the death must be accounted for.
MomofSpecialOlympicsAthlete:
You may be against the death penalty, but the majority of the people in this country say they are for it, and it gets practiced regularly.
When you say that abortion is the moral equivalent of murder, you realize that you are essentially tagging for death, that is, stigmatizing tens of millions of women with an accusation that calls into question the value of their lives.
Working in this country to make abortion murder is working to call millions of women murderers. Can’t you see how threatening this is? You don’t get off the hook by saying that you personally are against capital punishment. That’s like saying we are against torture in the US, but are OK with sending prisoners to other countries to be tortured. You know you won’t control the outcome if women start getting arrested for abortion.
The accusation of murder is a mortal one. It certainly and intentionally devalues the life of the accused.
Life’s beginning and end have causes us much honest moral qualms. Your situation has made you categorical about it, but, while not all of us face an abortion decision, all of us will face death. Do you think that you have the right to refuse treatment at the end of your life? Do you think that you are entitled to morphine if it hastens your death? Are you entitled to make this decision for your child?
“…should she simply be strapped to a table with a feeding tube and a catheter for the next 6-8 months until she delivers?”
No, of course not. That would be cruel.
I’m sure the Anti-Choice/Contraception/Sex/Women crowd would want her to be lobotomized first. After all, no brain, no pain…
I love how the response to evidence is “it must be wrong! I won’t look!”
Lost all respect there. Sickening, the lack of empathy.
Actually MOSA, child abuse has not always been considered a crime, nor has domestic violence or spousal rape. Remember the bad old days when women and children were essentially considered property of the husband/father?
The reporting on child abuse has probably gotten better in the post-Roe era, because child abuse stated to be taken more seriously than previously.
In response to your original post: I was out last night at Target, buying a new humidifier, and I bought a red sweater to wear. It was one of those exhausted purchases that you spend almost no time thinking about and yet you know that it will be something you’ll wear all the time, probably for years. Anyway, I did it in part because I was thinking of this.
And I was thinking, golly gee, if women can’t wear red because it makes them turbosluts, then what color is next? Army green, because it portrays too much strength? Yellow and orange because those colors draw men’s eyes?
I’m suprised at the amount of energy that gets devoted to our national dress code for women. Exposed underwear is bad, Britney Spears is bad, women who nurse are bad because of a lack of clothing, la di da. “Revealing” is a bad word. Where do these guardians of propriety find the energy?
Although I’m sure they’d be happy if I just gave up trying to figure out the code and either stayed inside or wore myself and my wallet out trying to keep up, I think instead I’ll wear red - not to signal “get your mating rituals on,” but just because I feel like it. Take that, Modo.
MOSOA, your “statistics” are highly tainted by “reporting bias”. Put bluntly, hitting kids was a sign that you were doing your job as a parent. Only overdoing it to the point of broken bones would register as “abuse”. There is also a serious confounding trend of access to increasingly potent and inexpensive drugs involved with this “more abuse”.
When I was a kid, showing up at school with bruises wasn’t considered worthy of note. It meant that you probably got the beating you deserved by a parent who cared. That was only about 30-40 years ago.
Our society changed its mind about child abuse, just like it changed its mind about what constitutes drunk driving. Thus blowing 0.15 would get you warned then, while 0.08 gets you jail now. Change the definition and the stats are no longer comparable.
Keep this in mind also: most “special needs” children were either left to die or abandoned to often abusive institutions in those halcyon illegal abortion days. Oh the good old days …
MOSOA, I know somebody who needs a heart-lung transplant. I think you’ll do. Shouldn’t you be morally forced to give it up for her? To keep her alive? Aren’t you “murdering” her by not sacrificing yourself?
Why would forcing you to die - to give up your vital organs - to save another person be any different than forcing a mother to continue a pregnancy that threatens her life?
Shouldn’t you be forced to take the risks of giving a kidney to somebody who needs it? Never mind that they are a poor transplant choice as their health status is incompatible with long-term survival, regardless. After all, you are asking women bearing congenitally malformed feti to assume the non-zero risks of death and permanent health impairment from late pregnancy to do the same. Again, why is it any different?
What about non-viable ectopic pregnancies? Why should women be tortured in a no-win situation becuase you love worshiping cell blobs, no matter how doomed? Oh yeah, I’m your insurance company and I found out that you smoked a cigarette within two weeks of that pregnancy. We ain’t gonna cover anything to do with your child’s developmental disabilities as a result of our surveilance because we know that YOU could have damaged your child.
Is that the kind of world you want to live in? Do you think for a moment that your insurance company wouldn’t dig dirt on your habits in order to avoid insuring your special child if they could get away with it - information gathered, of course, during an investigation of you for potential fetal harm because your kid wasn’t born perfect?
Oh, sorry, I just mentioned reality here. My bad.
I declare that we rename Mom to “Payday bar” because while there is a thin chocolate exterior (wuvving her widdle baby), but the interior is just 100% nutty held together by sugarry sentiment.
Should we all add nine months to our birth dates because life begins at conception?
Seriously, though, I (stupidly) clicked the link that Beast provided which showed the young Asian woman crushing a puppy under her high heel. I guess she was making the comparison that born puppies exactly the same as a fetus, embryo or blastocyst in the womb and women who abort are the same as this woman who dresses in cocktail dresses and crushes puppies underneath their high heels.
Then I read the comments and I guess there is often an element of racism against Asians in her posts.
I daresay that this woman needs an intervention. She needs to realize that she can’t be a big sister-like entity with her eye in every woman’s womb. She strikes me as rather haunted.
With that being said, the idea of people like this being in charge of public policy makes my brain and heart hurt.
Then I read the comments and I guess there is often an element of racism against Asians in her posts.
I recall reading on Feministe that she posted something about the people of China eating babies (the first link on the Feministe comments thread was a Snopes article debunking the story).
Mom, you appear to suffer from the belief that your choice means everyone else should make the same one. Sorry, doesn’t work that way. I promise, life is easier if you accept that people can be different and that’s okay. Your love for your children is not diminished if I don’t have children. Weirdly, though, your efforts at trying to force me to have children makes me doubt your complete love for yours. Joy doesn’t require company—misery does. If you’re trying to force other people to be like you so you feel better about yourself, that implies you’re not as happy as you say.
Amanda: Last weekend, I ran afoul of people who had determined that my failure to actually bite the top of the skull off of a 3-year-old and feast upon the dewey brains inside meant that I would make a great mom, and when I explained that I had no desire to be a mother, and in fact would make a very bad mother, was subjected to the usual litany of “it’s different when they’re you’re own!” (rinse and repeat).
It bothered me for a while, until I remembered that later on, my admission that we did not have a dishwasher in our current apartment, nor were we going to have a dishwasher in our soon-to-be-purchased home, I received a very similar admonishment because they are The Best Thing Ever and I Can’t Believe Living Without One. (Yes, they are nice, I know, but hardly a deal-breaker).
It sort of puts that attitude in perspective. At least, it did for me.
er, rather, I Can’t Imagine Living Without One.
(heh. Time for more tea)
annejumps:
maybe she thinks the “dumplings” segment of this movie is a documentary:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0420251/
prochoicers are the experts on eugenics
Aborting Down syndrome fetuses is not eugenics, since it’s usually not an inherited condition.
You know what? I think having the option of aborting made the decision not to get one easier. Yeah, I know I wasn’t quite in the position of having to make the decision as my son turned out to have the right number of chromosomes, but I certainly had to consider the ramifications and choices. (What? I wasn’t supposed to unless I faced a mandatory 24-hour waiting period?)
You never know how ou are going to react in a crisis until it happens to you. My dad died when I was 6 and I have a tendency toward depression. In other words, little things can set me off.
But when my condo tower caught fire and the fire escape filled with smoke, I didn’t panic. I remained calm. I knew we couldn’t make it down the stairs, and while I wasn’t okay with that, I didn’t freak out.
My mom is still angry that my husband took off without me. I was 8 months pregnant and couldn’t go as fast. He was carrying our 3 y/o son.
Later we talked about it and agreed it was the right thing to do–save the child! He couldn’t carry us both, and waiting for me was a death sentence.
(Obviously, we were rescued since I’m talking about it–we got out of the fire escape and a neighbor let us into her unit until the firefighters arrived. There was no way to get out of the building on foot without oxygen and we didn’t trust the elevators)
OK long side-track, but the point is that even if you think you know what your choice will be, when you are actually put in the situation, your reaction may be entirely different from what you expected. And that doesn’t make your situation special or different no matter how much you’d like to rationalize it that way–it makes you exactly the same as anyone else who faced with the same choice.
It’s what makes holier-than-thou folk so damn annoying–you really don’t know what someone else is going through or what they can handle. That’s what’s so great about allowing people the freedom to do as they will. Do they always make the right choices? No, but they do their best, and no one else has more info than the person in the situation.
And, damn, I hate being taken in by concern trolls.
You know what? I think having the option of aborting made the decision not to get one easier.
Not to mention, it also made it possible to make the decision. Because otherwise, someone had already made the decision for you.
I still can’t figure out what the hell “Mom” interpreted as a “death threat” against her. Maybe it’s just me.
RacyT:
Did MomofSpecialOlympicsAthlete say someone made a death threat?
Did Amanda delete it?
Wow, dishonest and incompetent with statistical and social analysis. That Mom is a very silly person. We do agree there’s no middle ground–you will be destroyed.
There’s lots of grounds. Left right middle.
Aborting Down syndrome fetuses is not eugenics, since it’s usually not an inherited condition.
It’s also not policy-driven.
Mighty Ponygirl,
FYI..Payday bars DO NOT have ANY chocolate in them or around them.
Come on, you guys….You got an open invitation from “mk” to go to Jill’s site to post! The pro-choice people over there need your help. mk’s “mission” is to convert you, so really, check it out, post, and give her a run for her money! It really isn’t much fun agreeing with people all of the time, now is it? You all seem to be GREAT debaters, so go henceforth and debate!
Payday aka MOSOA. I kinda like my new name. (I was referring to Squashed talking about the death penalty for prolifers. That isn’t funny, even in jest.) I bid you adieu.
“You all seem to be GREAT debaters, so go henceforth and debate!”
The problem is we’re only “great” debaters. Over at Aunty Jill’s place they’re “master” debaters…
MikeEss,
who? the PC or the AC side?
MomofSpecialOlympicsAthlete February 2, 2008 at 9:06 am
I was referring to Squashed talking about the death penalty for prolifers. That isn’t funny, even in jest.
——
who is talking jest?
It’s not that hard stoking public backlash against ultra rightwing. It works all the time everywhere.
You think the same social engineering rightwing used against gay or minority don’t work against those mega churches, ultra evangelicals or you? As you notice and you clearly employ the tactic, it is not hard to create public opinion and move them to start coming after you.
You think a lot of people here don’t know how to shape mass perception, street politics, CIA manual on agitprop or guerilla vs peasant strategy?
get real.
legally eliminating several thousand people isn’t terribly hard to do.
use in theatrical productions
…use of catch-phrases and half-truths to exploit popular grievances) with propaganda (the use of historical and scientific arguments for purposes of indoctrination) in a form that came to be called agitprop. This form of theatre is explicitly intended to arouse the audience to action and to propagate the views and values of the sponsoring organization. In practice, the term agitprop is usually…
——
just remember, you are tied to few rudimentary well understood ideology while most people here are equipped with far more complex ideological devices.
Caught onto this thread a few days late.
I say there’s only one good reason to dislike red: the fact that it is the primary color of Ohio State “University.” Beyond that, disliking or disapproving of red is, well, nuts.
Ya know what’s funny, I bet Jill Stanek is a generally sucky enough person to root for the Suckeyes, despite her apparent hatred of red. Hypocrisy, no?
— Larry, who roots for the far superior school in Ann Arbor and says GO BLUE!
The Essure procedure is the first and only FDA approved female sterilization procedure to have zero pregnancies in the clinical trials. The Essure procedure is permanent and is NOT reversible.
Therefore, you should be sure you do not want children in the future.