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	<title>Comments on: Pardon me if I can&#8217;t panic</title>
	<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/27/pardon-me-if-i-cant-panic/</link>
	<description>Just another WordPress weblog</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 00:53:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Phoenician in a time of Romans</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/27/pardon-me-if-i-cant-panic/#comment-485233</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 18:34:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/27/pardon-me-if-i-cant-panic/#comment-485233</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;PiaToR: But consider that with a 90% marginal rate, you could cash in only a small part (small to a filthy rich person, that is) for close-to-full price, and many only for 10% of their nominal value.&lt;/i&gt;

i, We're mainly talking institutional shareholders.

ii, The purpose is to generate capital gains by turning over shares rather than seeking dividends. The goal is not investment, but to generate the maximum amount of profit on a pool of capital by speculation in shares. Tax is a seperate matter.

Shares in which a rise in the market price is expected will be sought out, those which are steady will be avoided.  CEOs, in order to generate rises in share prices, do not have an incentive to provide dividends but to give the market some reason to justify expectations of price increases - i.e. to do something visible rather than something useful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>PiaToR: But consider that with a 90% marginal rate, you could cash in only a small part (small to a filthy rich person, that is) for close-to-full price, and many only for 10% of their nominal value.</i></p>
	<p>i, We&#8217;re mainly talking institutional shareholders.</p>
	<p>ii, The purpose is to generate capital gains by turning over shares rather than seeking dividends. The goal is not investment, but to generate the maximum amount of profit on a pool of capital by speculation in shares. Tax is a seperate matter.</p>
	<p>Shares in which a rise in the market price is expected will be sought out, those which are steady will be avoided.  CEOs, in order to generate rises in share prices, do not have an incentive to provide dividends but to give the market some reason to justify expectations of price increases - i.e. to do something visible rather than something useful.
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		<title>by: inge</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/27/pardon-me-if-i-cant-panic/#comment-485217</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 17:43:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/27/pardon-me-if-i-cant-panic/#comment-485217</guid>
					<description>PiaToR: But consider that with a 90% marginal rate, you could cash in only a small part (small to a filthy rich person, that is) for close-to-full price, and many only for 10% of their nominal value.  Unless you're happy with 10%, you'd have to space out selling, too. And wouldn't it be nice if the company wasn't bankrupt when you sell the last batch... 
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>PiaToR: But consider that with a 90% marginal rate, you could cash in only a small part (small to a filthy rich person, that is) for close-to-full price, and many only for 10% of their nominal value.  Unless you&#8217;re happy with 10%, you&#8217;d have to space out selling, too. And wouldn&#8217;t it be nice if the company wasn&#8217;t bankrupt when you sell the last batch&#8230;
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		<title>by: Phoenician in a time of Romans</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/27/pardon-me-if-i-cant-panic/#comment-485186</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 15:49:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/27/pardon-me-if-i-cant-panic/#comment-485186</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;But behind that fixation on share prices is the possibility to Get Rich Quick. If a high marginal tax rate makes “1 million now” less profitable than “100K a year for 10 years”, “now” loses importance versus “years”, and so does the share price “now” versus the share price over the next years.&lt;/i&gt;

Not quite.  The profit motive for shareholders comes from increases to the share price rather than the long term sustainable dividends of the company.  The share prices MUST go up each quarter - or the shares will get dumped and the money flow into something that does.

Acquisitions and downsizing thus become &quot;logical&quot; as a means of increasing expectations and thus market-prices - *regardless* of their effect on the longer term prospects of teh underlying corporate economic activity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>But behind that fixation on share prices is the possibility to Get Rich Quick. If a high marginal tax rate makes “1 million now” less profitable than “100K a year for 10 years”, “now” loses importance versus “years”, and so does the share price “now” versus the share price over the next years.</i></p>
	<p>Not quite.  The profit motive for shareholders comes from increases to the share price rather than the long term sustainable dividends of the company.  The share prices MUST go up each quarter - or the shares will get dumped and the money flow into something that does.</p>
	<p>Acquisitions and downsizing thus become &#8220;logical&#8221; as a means of increasing expectations and thus market-prices - *regardless* of their effect on the longer term prospects of teh underlying corporate economic activity.
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		<title>by: inge</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/27/pardon-me-if-i-cant-panic/#comment-485105</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 10:22:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/27/pardon-me-if-i-cant-panic/#comment-485105</guid>
					<description>Amanda, like many of the posters I'm far less optimistic about the effects of a recession than you are. While it may be hard-earned Schadenfreude to see the folks who were gaming the system whine over their downwards-pointing trend lines, most of the rich can weather depressions without having to sell one of their yachts, while the middle class becomes poor and/or desperate, and the poor become starving. 

Looking at the 20th century, severe recessions seem to have a tendency to bring up politicians with excessive energy and big ideas. And few of those are FDRs. It's demagogues who thrive on catastophes. 
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Amanda, like many of the posters I&#8217;m far less optimistic about the effects of a recession than you are. While it may be hard-earned Schadenfreude to see the folks who were gaming the system whine over their downwards-pointing trend lines, most of the rich can weather depressions without having to sell one of their yachts, while the middle class becomes poor and/or desperate, and the poor become starving. </p>
	<p>Looking at the 20th century, severe recessions seem to have a tendency to bring up politicians with excessive energy and big ideas. And few of those are FDRs. It&#8217;s demagogues who thrive on catastophes.
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		<title>by: inge</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/27/pardon-me-if-i-cant-panic/#comment-485089</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 09:19:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/27/pardon-me-if-i-cant-panic/#comment-485089</guid>
					<description>PiaToR, &lt;i&gt;Where Amanda's comments are wrong, IMHO, is focusing on marginal tax rates as a means of preventing short-term thinking. Short term thinking is fostered by an overwhelming concern for share prices in a volatile market - executives HAVE to concentrate on keeping the prices up in the short term. If the prices drop for a quarter, they get replaced by those who will keep them up instead.&lt;/i&gt;

But behind that fixation on share prices is the possibility to Get Rich Quick. If a high marginal tax rate makes &quot;1 million now&quot; less profitable than &quot;100K a year for 10 years&quot;, &quot;now&quot; loses importance versus &quot;years&quot;, and so does the share price &quot;now&quot; versus the share price over the next years. 
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>PiaToR, <i>Where Amanda&#8217;s comments are wrong, IMHO, is focusing on marginal tax rates as a means of preventing short-term thinking. Short term thinking is fostered by an overwhelming concern for share prices in a volatile market - executives HAVE to concentrate on keeping the prices up in the short term. If the prices drop for a quarter, they get replaced by those who will keep them up instead.</i></p>
	<p>But behind that fixation on share prices is the possibility to Get Rich Quick. If a high marginal tax rate makes &#8220;1 million now&#8221; less profitable than &#8220;100K a year for 10 years&#8221;, &#8220;now&#8221; loses importance versus &#8220;years&#8221;, and so does the share price &#8220;now&#8221; versus the share price over the next years.
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		<title>by: inge</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/27/pardon-me-if-i-cant-panic/#comment-485087</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 09:10:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/27/pardon-me-if-i-cant-panic/#comment-485087</guid>
					<description>Tim, so you do not have the impression from current events in Russian, that people would accept authoritarian rule, as long as basic needs are met, to the mafia capitalism of the 1990s where everyone grabs what they can afford the thugs to defend?

On government-build slums and ghettos: No matter who builds those things, if you force people with no work, no hope and no stake in society together in some place half an hour or more from anything interesting, you can bet dollars to sand that shit will happen, the question is when. 
OTOH, if there are tax advantages in making one luxury condomium out of four affordable flats, slums will happen, again, no matter who builds them. 
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Tim, so you do not have the impression from current events in Russian, that people would accept authoritarian rule, as long as basic needs are met, to the mafia capitalism of the 1990s where everyone grabs what they can afford the thugs to defend?</p>
	<p>On government-build slums and ghettos: No matter who builds those things, if you force people with no work, no hope and no stake in society together in some place half an hour or more from anything interesting, you can bet dollars to sand that shit will happen, the question is when.<br />
OTOH, if there are tax advantages in making one luxury condomium out of four affordable flats, slums will happen, again, no matter who builds them.
</p>
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		<title>by: inge</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/27/pardon-me-if-i-cant-panic/#comment-485084</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 08:51:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/27/pardon-me-if-i-cant-panic/#comment-485084</guid>
					<description>seroj, middle class has traditionally been defined as being between upper and lower classes. This is not measured by income, but by lifestyle, attitudes, occupation, respect, source of income... 

Historically, there have been time when there wasn't a middle class, though there was a mean and median of yearly income. 
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>seroj, middle class has traditionally been defined as being between upper and lower classes. This is not measured by income, but by lifestyle, attitudes, occupation, respect, source of income&#8230; </p>
	<p>Historically, there have been time when there wasn&#8217;t a middle class, though there was a mean and median of yearly income.
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		<title>by: Terry Karney (Demi-urge of Cutlery)</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/27/pardon-me-if-i-cant-panic/#comment-485054</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 02:26:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/27/pardon-me-if-i-cant-panic/#comment-485054</guid>
					<description>Quiet Truths:  When you take the affect of the marginal rates on wage income, and compare them to the rates on capital gains, you also get (uner a higher marginal rate system) an incentive to invest in things which have a deferred payout.

When stocks cost 30 percent, but higher paychecks were taxed at 90 percent, then investing in companies; and so improving the overall economy, becomes a bigger incentive.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Quiet Truths:  When you take the affect of the marginal rates on wage income, and compare them to the rates on capital gains, you also get (uner a higher marginal rate system) an incentive to invest in things which have a deferred payout.</p>
	<p>When stocks cost 30 percent, but higher paychecks were taxed at 90 percent, then investing in companies; and so improving the overall economy, becomes a bigger incentive.
</p>
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		<title>by: Pinky</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/27/pardon-me-if-i-cant-panic/#comment-484924</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2008 18:35:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/27/pardon-me-if-i-cant-panic/#comment-484924</guid>
					<description>I love the space program and the space race but have a hard time standing behind the space shuttle as anything more than an onsite service department for real science programs that need some TLC and lens polishing.

The ISS (International Sucking Sensation) has been largely a huge drain on already cut to the bone true science projects. The thought that they (the brain dead loyal Bushies) actually want to abandon the Voyager program now is ridiculous and junk the Hubble space telescope? Damn, that space telescope has done more real science than the floating Holiday Inn has!

But, hey. Let's put men on Mars. Let's have a Hilton Hotel on the Moon. Let's smoke money like we're smoking crack back in the Texas Air National Guard.

There is a satellite that is in a clean room back in Florida that the 'Loyal Bushies' won't allow to be launched! Oh, but they'll launch Japanese adventure golfers in a heart beat.

I vote that Bush be put on Mars. Tomorrow! And send Darth Cheney and Alberto! Gonzales and Ashcroft and the whole list of sycophants up there too.

But seriously folks, the Arecibo installation in Puerto Rico is about to be abandoned and Bush wants to send that money to Iraq/n.

True (usable) science has taken a hit, almost like in the dark ages.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I love the space program and the space race but have a hard time standing behind the space shuttle as anything more than an onsite service department for real science programs that need some TLC and lens polishing.</p>
	<p>The ISS (International Sucking Sensation) has been largely a huge drain on already cut to the bone true science projects. The thought that they (the brain dead loyal Bushies) actually want to abandon the Voyager program now is ridiculous and junk the Hubble space telescope? Damn, that space telescope has done more real science than the floating Holiday Inn has!</p>
	<p>But, hey. Let&#8217;s put men on Mars. Let&#8217;s have a Hilton Hotel on the Moon. Let&#8217;s smoke money like we&#8217;re smoking crack back in the Texas Air National Guard.</p>
	<p>There is a satellite that is in a clean room back in Florida that the &#8216;Loyal Bushies&#8217; won&#8217;t allow to be launched! Oh, but they&#8217;ll launch Japanese adventure golfers in a heart beat.</p>
	<p>I vote that Bush be put on Mars. Tomorrow! And send Darth Cheney and Alberto! Gonzales and Ashcroft and the whole list of sycophants up there too.</p>
	<p>But seriously folks, the Arecibo installation in Puerto Rico is about to be abandoned and Bush wants to send that money to Iraq/n.</p>
	<p>True (usable) science has taken a hit, almost like in the dark ages.
</p>
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		<title>by: Mnemosyne</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/27/pardon-me-if-i-cant-panic/#comment-484909</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2008 17:28:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/27/pardon-me-if-i-cant-panic/#comment-484909</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;That’s nice for you. But given that Velcro was invented and patented by a Swiss guy years before manned space flight, I fail to see how its a justification for the Space Race.&lt;/i&gt;

Velcro was popularized by the space program.  The fax machine was invented in &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventions/fax.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;1964&lt;/a&gt; but wasn't in wide use for another 20 years.

How about &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cnn.com/2007/LIVING/worklife/10/04/nasa.everyday/index.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;smoke detectors&lt;/a&gt;?  But, hey, all they've done is save mere human lives, so there's no reason to give the space program credit for such silly things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>That’s nice for you. But given that Velcro was invented and patented by a Swiss guy years before manned space flight, I fail to see how its a justification for the Space Race.</i></p>
	<p>Velcro was popularized by the space program.  The fax machine was invented in <a href="http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventions/fax.htm" rel="nofollow">1964</a> but wasn&#8217;t in wide use for another 20 years.</p>
	<p>How about <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2007/LIVING/worklife/10/04/nasa.everyday/index.html" rel="nofollow">smoke detectors</a>?  But, hey, all they&#8217;ve done is save mere human lives, so there&#8217;s no reason to give the space program credit for such silly things.
</p>
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