<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><!-- generator="wordpress/1.5.1-alpha" -->
<rss version="2.0" 
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/">
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Having to clean up after the performance artists violates my sense of fairness, though</title>
	<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/23/6610/</link>
	<description>Just another WordPress weblog</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 22:15:02 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=1.5.1-alpha</generator>

	<item>
		<title>by: Mickle</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/23/6610/#comment-484450</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2008 13:13:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/23/6610/#comment-484450</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;Like why a lot of people are skeeved by insects, or mice.&lt;/i&gt;

I dunno.  I suspect a lot of people are skeeved out by insects and mice particularly for the same reasons that they freak out preschoolers.

Around three or four is when little kids really begin to understand that they are separate from other people and that they are individuals.  Insects - and sometimes other animals like mice - freak a lot of preschoolers out at this age because they finally understand that even little things like insects have minds of their own, and the idea that other things have agency and can't be controlled and manipulated like a block or a ball scares them.  It seems logical to me that this would carry through to adulthood for some people.

And yes, it seems &lt;i&gt;il&lt;/i&gt;logical that they would freak out over the small things they can't control, and not the big things they can't control.  But preschoolers tend to obsess over illogical fears precisely because you can do something about a spider, but you can't do a whole lot about a polar bear.  You can refuse to watch a scary movie or insist on a night light, but you can't do anything to keep mom and dad from dying.

FYI, this is also about the time most kids become obsessed with gender.  They are trying to create an identity - and categorize others - and declaring &quot;I'm/he's/she's a boy/girl&quot; is a really easy way to do that.  Thus the popularity of Disney Princesses among preschoolers who often have never even seen half the movies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Like why a lot of people are skeeved by insects, or mice.</i></p>
	<p>I dunno.  I suspect a lot of people are skeeved out by insects and mice particularly for the same reasons that they freak out preschoolers.</p>
	<p>Around three or four is when little kids really begin to understand that they are separate from other people and that they are individuals.  Insects - and sometimes other animals like mice - freak a lot of preschoolers out at this age because they finally understand that even little things like insects have minds of their own, and the idea that other things have agency and can&#8217;t be controlled and manipulated like a block or a ball scares them.  It seems logical to me that this would carry through to adulthood for some people.</p>
	<p>And yes, it seems <i>il</i>logical that they would freak out over the small things they can&#8217;t control, and not the big things they can&#8217;t control.  But preschoolers tend to obsess over illogical fears precisely because you can do something about a spider, but you can&#8217;t do a whole lot about a polar bear.  You can refuse to watch a scary movie or insist on a night light, but you can&#8217;t do anything to keep mom and dad from dying.</p>
	<p>FYI, this is also about the time most kids become obsessed with gender.  They are trying to create an identity - and categorize others - and declaring &#8220;I&#8217;m/he&#8217;s/she&#8217;s a boy/girl&#8221; is a really easy way to do that.  Thus the popularity of Disney Princesses among preschoolers who often have never even seen half the movies.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Lynn Gazis-Sax</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/23/6610/#comment-484216</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 15:39:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/23/6610/#comment-484216</guid>
					<description>#1: No, I'm not poking the child, for any amount of money.  You need to make the circumstances more desperate for me to consider that one, or, preferably, have some of the benefit of the act go to the child.  #2, no, not that one either.  #3, well, not if the statement is &lt;i&gt;false.  I'd consider publically criticizing my country in a foreign country for something where it deserved the criticism.  #4, I really don't see why slapping my minister should bother me, given that it's all a stage performance and done with his permission.  #5, the urination would be the part that would bother me.  If it was just nudity like in Equus, I'd watch it.  Still, if I had to choose between #1, #2, #3, and #5 (second option in all cases), I'd pick #5.&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>#1: No, I&#8217;m not poking the child, for any amount of money.  You need to make the circumstances more desperate for me to consider that one, or, preferably, have some of the benefit of the act go to the child.  #2, no, not that one either.  #3, well, not if the statement is <i>false.  I&#8217;d consider publically criticizing my country in a foreign country for something where it deserved the criticism.  #4, I really don&#8217;t see why slapping my minister should bother me, given that it&#8217;s all a stage performance and done with his permission.  #5, the urination would be the part that would bother me.  If it was just nudity like in Equus, I&#8217;d watch it.  Still, if I had to choose between #1, #2, #3, and #5 (second option in all cases), I&#8217;d pick #5.</i>
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Lindsay</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/23/6610/#comment-484201</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 14:59:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/23/6610/#comment-484201</guid>
					<description>I'm surprised that conservatives were found to place equal weight on all of the five things; I do not find their policies to be at all conducive to fairness or community. And about &quot;community,&quot; I find it really annoying, and possibly indicative of poorly-thought-out questions, that &quot;community&quot; was identified solely as (verbal) devotion to some abstract entity.  It included nothing at all about actually acting to protect the community in which you live, which conservatives, favoring laissez-faire capitalism and doing everything to let huge multinational corporations off the hook, would score really poorly on. Seriously, who measures morality by what you're willing to &lt;i&gt;say&lt;/i&gt; about whatever you're trying to convince people you value? Shouldn't it be measured by what you're willing to &lt;i&gt;do&lt;/i&gt; to protect it? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m surprised that conservatives were found to place equal weight on all of the five things; I do not find their policies to be at all conducive to fairness or community. And about &#8220;community,&#8221; I find it really annoying, and possibly indicative of poorly-thought-out questions, that &#8220;community&#8221; was identified solely as (verbal) devotion to some abstract entity.  It included nothing at all about actually acting to protect the community in which you live, which conservatives, favoring laissez-faire capitalism and doing everything to let huge multinational corporations off the hook, would score really poorly on. Seriously, who measures morality by what you&#8217;re willing to <i>say</i> about whatever you&#8217;re trying to convince people you value? Shouldn&#8217;t it be measured by what you&#8217;re willing to <i>do</i> to protect it?
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Erika</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/23/6610/#comment-484196</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 14:44:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/23/6610/#comment-484196</guid>
					<description>I concur that number 4 is harmless.  The minister agreed to be assaulted/humiliated on stage, so what's the problem?  If he didn't agree, then that would be unacceptable, at least in part because of the assault on authority, but mainly because it's unfair to publicly humiliate a person for no good reason.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I concur that number 4 is harmless.  The minister agreed to be assaulted/humiliated on stage, so what&#8217;s the problem?  If he didn&#8217;t agree, then that would be unacceptable, at least in part because of the assault on authority, but mainly because it&#8217;s unfair to publicly humiliate a person for no good reason.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: paul</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/23/6610/#comment-484181</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 13:36:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/23/6610/#comment-484181</guid>
					<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;If I think of it as “we have an instint for purity” I kind of go “meh,” but if I think of it as “we are instinctively set up to be taught what is icky” I can’t really disagree.

Not that there is any specific thing that it is natural to find icky as a universal human experience, nor that we can’t train ourselves to de-ick something we were taught, just that “Ick” seems to be a universal human experience in some form. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Have you spent a lot of time caring for infants or toddlers? I'm not sure that &quot;Ick&quot; is in fact a universal human experience in any kind of pre-programmed or pre-programmable form. 

But I wouldn't be surprised if training kids into having that sense were an integral part of any culture that survives past the point of clusters larger than a clan, just for the obvious bacteriological reasons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<blockquote><p>If I think of it as “we have an instint for purity” I kind of go “meh,” but if I think of it as “we are instinctively set up to be taught what is icky” I can’t really disagree.</p>
	<p>Not that there is any specific thing that it is natural to find icky as a universal human experience, nor that we can’t train ourselves to de-ick something we were taught, just that “Ick” seems to be a universal human experience in some form. </p></blockquote>
	<p>Have you spent a lot of time caring for infants or toddlers? I&#8217;m not sure that &#8220;Ick&#8221; is in fact a universal human experience in any kind of pre-programmed or pre-programmable form. </p>
	<p>But I wouldn&#8217;t be surprised if training kids into having that sense were an integral part of any culture that survives past the point of clusters larger than a clan, just for the obvious bacteriological reasons.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Cara</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/23/6610/#comment-484176</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 13:24:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/23/6610/#comment-484176</guid>
					<description>It seems to me that all but #5 are about &quot;harm&quot;, unless the focus is purely on physical harm in order to make these particular points.  (I guess I'm a &quot;lumper&quot;).  

It's wrong to prick a kid's hand because it hurts them, it's wrong to steal the TV because it harms the company or the person who bought it, it's wrong to slap someone with or without their permission because it hurts them, it's wrong to lie about your country because lying for no good reason is wrong...well, there's my irrationality showing up.  

The fifth one just grosses me out, though like someone else said, I've got no problem cleaning up after a relative or changing a diaper.  So does that fall under &quot;community&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It seems to me that all but #5 are about &#8220;harm&#8221;, unless the focus is purely on physical harm in order to make these particular points.  (I guess I&#8217;m a &#8220;lumper&#8221;).  </p>
	<p>It&#8217;s wrong to prick a kid&#8217;s hand because it hurts them, it&#8217;s wrong to steal the TV because it harms the company or the person who bought it, it&#8217;s wrong to slap someone with or without their permission because it hurts them, it&#8217;s wrong to lie about your country because lying for no good reason is wrong&#8230;well, there&#8217;s my irrationality showing up.  </p>
	<p>The fifth one just grosses me out, though like someone else said, I&#8217;ve got no problem cleaning up after a relative or changing a diaper.  So does that fall under &#8220;community&#8221;?
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Phoenician in a time of Romans</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/23/6610/#comment-483991</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jan 2008 14:34:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/23/6610/#comment-483991</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;I’d rather see people acting as animals, including urination, than mock retarded people.&lt;/i&gt;

The Republicans have only themselves to blame, Sam.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I’d rather see people acting as animals, including urination, than mock retarded people.</i></p>
	<p>The Republicans have only themselves to blame, Sam.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Doctor Science, Demiurge of No-Knead Bread</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/23/6610/#comment-483988</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jan 2008 14:10:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/23/6610/#comment-483988</guid>
					<description>Peter:
&lt;blockquote&gt;“we are instinctively set up to be taught what is icky” I can’t really disagree.&lt;/blockquote&gt;I can. I use the term &quot;instinct&quot; rather carefully, and unless I can think of a parallel in  animal behavior I will doubt it's a human instinct.

The only exception is language. The evidence IMO is really strong that humans have an instinct to use language (spoken or signed) and with certain parameters. This is one reason I suspect &quot;purity&quot; as a moral quality is tied up in language, somehow.

Can you think of an animal behavior that looks like a concern for purity? The closest thing I can think of is food aversion,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Peter:</p>
	<blockquote><p>“we are instinctively set up to be taught what is icky” I can’t really disagree.</blockquote>
I can. I use the term &#8220;instinct&#8221; rather carefully, and unless I can think of a parallel in  animal behavior I will doubt it&#8217;s a human instinct.</p>
	<p>The only exception is language. The evidence IMO is really strong that humans have an instinct to use language (spoken or signed) and with certain parameters. This is one reason I suspect &#8220;purity&#8221; as a moral quality is tied up in language, somehow.</p>
	<p>Can you think of an animal behavior that looks like a concern for purity? The closest thing I can think of is food aversion,
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: LyssaD</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/23/6610/#comment-483987</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:58:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/23/6610/#comment-483987</guid>
					<description>Shorter Pinker: Chomsky’s theories on language also hold for morality. 
i.e.,
Everyone has the same intuitions re (morality),
these acceptability judgments demonstrate our tacit knowledge of (morality),
I see no way this (moral) knowledge could be learned, therefore it is innate.  

Unfortunately, the conclusion is sheer creationism, firstly, and secondly, the basic premise is false since intuitive judgments vary both intra- and inter-subjectively, making them useless as data. The past thirty years have consistently demonstrated this, as has this entire thread.   Pinker is just the leading cultist, a Tom Cruise of Chomskyism. 
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Shorter Pinker: Chomsky’s theories on language also hold for morality.<br />
i.e.,<br />
Everyone has the same intuitions re (morality),<br />
these acceptability judgments demonstrate our tacit knowledge of (morality),<br />
I see no way this (moral) knowledge could be learned, therefore it is innate.  </p>
	<p>Unfortunately, the conclusion is sheer creationism, firstly, and secondly, the basic premise is false since intuitive judgments vary both intra- and inter-subjectively, making them useless as data. The past thirty years have consistently demonstrated this, as has this entire thread.   Pinker is just the leading cultist, a Tom Cruise of Chomskyism.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: inge</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/23/6610/#comment-483986</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:56:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/23/6610/#comment-483986</guid>
					<description>CBrachyrhynchos: &lt;i&gt;The only thing that makes him [Gore] or his opinions relevant is that he has charisma and authority bestowed upon him by large chunks of the left.&lt;/i&gt;

One might say that the only legitimate authority is the one that is freely given. Not quite sure yet if I agree, have to consider it. 
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>CBrachyrhynchos: <i>The only thing that makes him [Gore] or his opinions relevant is that he has charisma and authority bestowed upon him by large chunks of the left.</i></p>
	<p>One might say that the only legitimate authority is the one that is freely given. Not quite sure yet if I agree, have to consider it.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
</channel>
</rss>
