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	<title>Comments on: Nader&#8217;s rumbling &#8212; please god, no</title>
	<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/21/naders-rumbling-please-god-no/</link>
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	<pubDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 11:02:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: hbsweet, empress of ice cream</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/21/naders-rumbling-please-god-no/#comment-483851</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2008 22:48:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/21/naders-rumbling-please-god-no/#comment-483851</guid>
					<description>I've been a registered voter since the day I turned 18 (let me put it this way: Joan Jett's &quot;I Love Rock &amp;amp; Roll&quot; was in the Top 40 at the time), and have only missed voting a couple of times: a non-Prez year when my district moved polling places, and in 2004, when I moved overseas with less than a month's notice, and forget to get a proxy ballot (see? Bush 2004 is actually all MY fault!). 

My voting philosophy in the past few elections has been much like the Hippocratic oath: &quot;First, do no harm.&quot;

In keeping with that philosophy, I'd like to add, &quot;Second, Ralph Nader should sit down and shut up.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;ve been a registered voter since the day I turned 18 (let me put it this way: Joan Jett&#8217;s &#8220;I Love Rock &amp; Roll&#8221; was in the Top 40 at the time), and have only missed voting a couple of times: a non-Prez year when my district moved polling places, and in 2004, when I moved overseas with less than a month&#8217;s notice, and forget to get a proxy ballot (see? Bush 2004 is actually all MY fault!). </p>
	<p>My voting philosophy in the past few elections has been much like the Hippocratic oath: &#8220;First, do no harm.&#8221;</p>
	<p>In keeping with that philosophy, I&#8217;d like to add, &#8220;Second, Ralph Nader should sit down and shut up.&#8221;
</p>
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		<title>by: rea</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/21/naders-rumbling-please-god-no/#comment-483687</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:05:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/21/naders-rumbling-please-god-no/#comment-483687</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt; I do care about the disenfranchised voters in Indiana. That’s why I wrote to the Supreme Court as they make their decision. &lt;/i&gt;

You do know that judges aren't allowed to read such letters about pending cases, don't you?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i> I do care about the disenfranchised voters in Indiana. That’s why I wrote to the Supreme Court as they make their decision. </i></p>
	<p>You do know that judges aren&#8217;t allowed to read such letters about pending cases, don&#8217;t you?
</p>
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		<title>by: CBrachyrhynchos</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/21/naders-rumbling-please-god-no/#comment-483686</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:57:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/21/naders-rumbling-please-god-no/#comment-483686</guid>
					<description>5: Undermining the welfare safety net.

6: A lack of dialog about election reform and campaign finance reform.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>5: Undermining the welfare safety net.</p>
	<p>6: A lack of dialog about election reform and campaign finance reform.
</p>
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		<title>by: CBrachyrhynchos</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/21/naders-rumbling-please-god-no/#comment-483684</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:28:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/21/naders-rumbling-please-god-no/#comment-483684</guid>
					<description>Ailurophile: &lt;i&gt;Why did people vote for him? Why was it able to contribute to the 2000 disaster? And what can we do about it in the future?&lt;/i&gt;

Well, I didn't vote for &lt;b&gt;him&lt;/b&gt; in specific.  I voted for the Green party platform.  In particular, there were some things about the Clinton administration I found to be intolerable.

1: Perpetual saber-rattling and military intervention in Iraq.  Don't fool yourself.  We were at war with Iraq during Clinton's tenure as well.

2: The growing treatment of the left as criminals, FBI infiltration and subversion of leftist groups, the imposition of free-speech zones, and the complete lack of dialog regarding environmental and labor issues.

3: The state department's willingness to sabotage environmental meetings that ran against the interests of American corporations, and threats of a trade war with the EU over its more restrictive environmental standards.  The continued use of a &quot;no proven harm&quot; environmental standards contrasted with &quot;proven safe.&quot;  

4: Dont ask don't tell, and DOMA.  You cant spend four years saying that I'm a threat to western civilization and expect to have my vote on Tuesday.   

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ailurophile: <i>Why did people vote for him? Why was it able to contribute to the 2000 disaster? And what can we do about it in the future?</i></p>
	<p>Well, I didn&#8217;t vote for <b>him</b> in specific.  I voted for the Green party platform.  In particular, there were some things about the Clinton administration I found to be intolerable.</p>
	<p>1: Perpetual saber-rattling and military intervention in Iraq.  Don&#8217;t fool yourself.  We were at war with Iraq during Clinton&#8217;s tenure as well.</p>
	<p>2: The growing treatment of the left as criminals, FBI infiltration and subversion of leftist groups, the imposition of free-speech zones, and the complete lack of dialog regarding environmental and labor issues.</p>
	<p>3: The state department&#8217;s willingness to sabotage environmental meetings that ran against the interests of American corporations, and threats of a trade war with the EU over its more restrictive environmental standards.  The continued use of a &#8220;no proven harm&#8221; environmental standards contrasted with &#8220;proven safe.&#8221;  </p>
	<p>4: Dont ask don&#8217;t tell, and DOMA.  You cant spend four years saying that I&#8217;m a threat to western civilization and expect to have my vote on Tuesday.
</p>
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		<title>by: Chet</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/21/naders-rumbling-please-god-no/#comment-483675</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2008 01:46:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/21/naders-rumbling-please-god-no/#comment-483675</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;Why did people vote for him?&lt;/i&gt;

Because he's a lying bullshit artist?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Why did people vote for him?</i></p>
	<p>Because he&#8217;s a lying bullshit artist?
</p>
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		<title>by: Ailurophile</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/21/naders-rumbling-please-god-no/#comment-483648</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:09:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/21/naders-rumbling-please-god-no/#comment-483648</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;Why&lt;/i&gt; do liberals demonize each other? I believe it's our greatest failing. When we lose we yap, whine, and point fingers, rather than saying &quot;what went wrong and  what can we do about it?&quot; And we also throw one another under the bus a lot, as witness the Kossacks blaming Teh Gheys for Ford's loss. And various people in comment threads at Salon and the Prospect blaming New Hampshire women for voting for Sen. Clinton. Because throwing women, or gays, or atheists, or whoever, under the bus because OMG BACKLASH is so helpful to the cause.

Really, *if* a female candidate, or a black candidate, or one who supports gay rights, or an atheist or anyone else, triggers a backlash from (presumably) whites or men or Christians or or or, is the solution really to tell gays (women, blacks, atheists) to STFU and stand back because they are political poison? No. Rather, one can ask &quot;is a backlash really going to be disastrous? If so, why? And what can we do about it?&quot; For those who are STILL PO'd about Nader, it's time to ask: Why did people vote for him? Why was it able to contribute to the 2000 disaster? And what can we do about it in the future? Aside, that is, from yapping and pointing fingers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Why</i> do liberals demonize each other? I believe it&#8217;s our greatest failing. When we lose we yap, whine, and point fingers, rather than saying &#8220;what went wrong and  what can we do about it?&#8221; And we also throw one another under the bus a lot, as witness the Kossacks blaming Teh Gheys for Ford&#8217;s loss. And various people in comment threads at Salon and the Prospect blaming New Hampshire women for voting for Sen. Clinton. Because throwing women, or gays, or atheists, or whoever, under the bus because OMG BACKLASH is so helpful to the cause.</p>
	<p>Really, *if* a female candidate, or a black candidate, or one who supports gay rights, or an atheist or anyone else, triggers a backlash from (presumably) whites or men or Christians or or or, is the solution really to tell gays (women, blacks, atheists) to STFU and stand back because they are political poison? No. Rather, one can ask &#8220;is a backlash really going to be disastrous? If so, why? And what can we do about it?&#8221; For those who are STILL PO&#8217;d about Nader, it&#8217;s time to ask: Why did people vote for him? Why was it able to contribute to the 2000 disaster? And what can we do about it in the future? Aside, that is, from yapping and pointing fingers.
</p>
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		<title>by: CBrachyrhynchos</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/21/naders-rumbling-please-god-no/#comment-483647</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 20:56:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/21/naders-rumbling-please-god-no/#comment-483647</guid>
					<description>Ohh, by the technicolor yawn of Bacchus this is one of the things that I really hate about left-wing politics.  When conservatives loose it seems that they demonize liberals. When leftists win, it seems that they demonize each other.  

&lt;i&gt;Sorry, which one of us is making the purer-than-thou argument? Hint: it’s not me. I made a choice in 2000 that I now regret. But I guess that if I don’t stick by my original decision no matter what, even if I think in retrospect that it was the wrong decision, that’s proof that I’m a Bad Liberal.&lt;/i&gt;

Huh?  After saying that I vote Democratic with a majority of the two-dozen votes I get every other year, fully intend to participate in Democratic party primaries this year, and will consider voting for a Democratic presidential candidate this year, &lt;b&gt;I'm&lt;/b&gt; purer than thou? Huh?

I'm calling you out not because you changed your mind, but because you are trying to hold this as an ideological litmus test.  You feel it was a mistake, I don't. Get over it already. I won't hold it against you if you don't hold it against me.

&lt;i&gt;And, yes, I do care about the disenfranchised voters in Indiana. That’s why I wrote to the Supreme Court as they make their decision. They probably won’t listen to me since I’m from California but, unfortunately, there’s not a whole lot else I can do, being in California.&lt;/i&gt;

How nice, a token political gesture. You want a cookie? A certificate available for framing?

&lt;i&gt;Shall I quit my job, pick up, move to Indiana, and do volunteer work while living out of my car before you accept that I care about things that happen in other states?&lt;/i&gt;

Actually, that would be a start. Perhaps you can live here for six months, get registered to vote, work for media that distributes information for this issue (let me introduce you to our news director), vote for candidates fighting to repeal this turd of a law, help out with voter registration and ID requirements, and &lt;b&gt;then&lt;/b&gt; you can attempt to point your finger and go &quot;shame shame.&quot;

As it is, you are a day late and a dollar short. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ohh, by the technicolor yawn of Bacchus this is one of the things that I really hate about left-wing politics.  When conservatives loose it seems that they demonize liberals. When leftists win, it seems that they demonize each other.  </p>
	<p><i>Sorry, which one of us is making the purer-than-thou argument? Hint: it’s not me. I made a choice in 2000 that I now regret. But I guess that if I don’t stick by my original decision no matter what, even if I think in retrospect that it was the wrong decision, that’s proof that I’m a Bad Liberal.</i></p>
	<p>Huh?  After saying that I vote Democratic with a majority of the two-dozen votes I get every other year, fully intend to participate in Democratic party primaries this year, and will consider voting for a Democratic presidential candidate this year, <b>I&#8217;m</b> purer than thou? Huh?</p>
	<p>I&#8217;m calling you out not because you changed your mind, but because you are trying to hold this as an ideological litmus test.  You feel it was a mistake, I don&#8217;t. Get over it already. I won&#8217;t hold it against you if you don&#8217;t hold it against me.</p>
	<p><i>And, yes, I do care about the disenfranchised voters in Indiana. That’s why I wrote to the Supreme Court as they make their decision. They probably won’t listen to me since I’m from California but, unfortunately, there’s not a whole lot else I can do, being in California.</i></p>
	<p>How nice, a token political gesture. You want a cookie? A certificate available for framing?</p>
	<p><i>Shall I quit my job, pick up, move to Indiana, and do volunteer work while living out of my car before you accept that I care about things that happen in other states?</i></p>
	<p>Actually, that would be a start. Perhaps you can live here for six months, get registered to vote, work for media that distributes information for this issue (let me introduce you to our news director), vote for candidates fighting to repeal this turd of a law, help out with voter registration and ID requirements, and <b>then</b> you can attempt to point your finger and go &#8220;shame shame.&#8221;</p>
	<p>As it is, you are a day late and a dollar short.
</p>
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		<title>by: Mnemosyne</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/21/naders-rumbling-please-god-no/#comment-483630</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:29:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/21/naders-rumbling-please-god-no/#comment-483630</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;I mean, seriously, you come in on a high horse, “oh, pity me, I’m the self-hating Nader voter, watch me abuse myself for your benefit!” Then it’s a long series of cliches and ignorant homilies except for the whole thing with the Voter ID law, which is bordeline offensive because you don’t really care about disenfranchised voters in my state, do you? It’s just rhetorical ammo.&lt;/i&gt;

Sorry, which one of us is making the purer-than-thou argument?  Hint:  it's not me.  I made a choice in 2000 that I now regret.  But I guess that if I don't stick by my original decision no matter what, even if I think in retrospect that it was the wrong decision, that's proof that I'm a Bad Liberal. 

And, yes, I do care about the disenfranchised voters in Indiana.  That's why I wrote to the Supreme Court as they make their decision.  They probably won't listen to me since I'm from California but, unfortunately, there's not a whole lot else I can do, being in California.  Shall I quit my job, pick up, move to Indiana, and do volunteer work while living out of my car before you accept that I care about things that happen in other states?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I mean, seriously, you come in on a high horse, “oh, pity me, I’m the self-hating Nader voter, watch me abuse myself for your benefit!” Then it’s a long series of cliches and ignorant homilies except for the whole thing with the Voter ID law, which is bordeline offensive because you don’t really care about disenfranchised voters in my state, do you? It’s just rhetorical ammo.</i></p>
	<p>Sorry, which one of us is making the purer-than-thou argument?  Hint:  it&#8217;s not me.  I made a choice in 2000 that I now regret.  But I guess that if I don&#8217;t stick by my original decision no matter what, even if I think in retrospect that it was the wrong decision, that&#8217;s proof that I&#8217;m a Bad Liberal. </p>
	<p>And, yes, I do care about the disenfranchised voters in Indiana.  That&#8217;s why I wrote to the Supreme Court as they make their decision.  They probably won&#8217;t listen to me since I&#8217;m from California but, unfortunately, there&#8217;s not a whole lot else I can do, being in California.  Shall I quit my job, pick up, move to Indiana, and do volunteer work while living out of my car before you accept that I care about things that happen in other states?
</p>
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		<title>by: Mnemosyne</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/21/naders-rumbling-please-god-no/#comment-483629</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:24:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/21/naders-rumbling-please-god-no/#comment-483629</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;My point isn’t that Nader or his supporters were saints or that Nader was the best candidate at the time. My point is that Nader didn’t lose the election for Gore, plain and simple.&lt;/i&gt;

I never said that Nader &lt;i&gt;by himself&lt;/i&gt; lost the election.  Are you trying to claim that Nader had &lt;i&gt;no&lt;/i&gt; effect on the election?

All I've been arguing is that Nader deserves a share of the blame -- not the whole blame but, as I said, a share of the blame.  But no one wants to admit for even a minute that Saint Ralph let them down.

And, as I said before, it's awfully suspicious that two viable third parties (the Reform Party and the Green Party) were both taken down by outside &quot;celebrity&quot; candidates, Pat Buchanan and Ralph Nader, who split the parties and caused deep divisions within them.

But, yes, let's keep arguing back and forth that Nader was completely blameless in 2000, if it makes you feel better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>My point isn’t that Nader or his supporters were saints or that Nader was the best candidate at the time. My point is that Nader didn’t lose the election for Gore, plain and simple.</i></p>
	<p>I never said that Nader <i>by himself</i> lost the election.  Are you trying to claim that Nader had <i>no</i> effect on the election?</p>
	<p>All I&#8217;ve been arguing is that Nader deserves a share of the blame &#8212; not the whole blame but, as I said, a share of the blame.  But no one wants to admit for even a minute that Saint Ralph let them down.</p>
	<p>And, as I said before, it&#8217;s awfully suspicious that two viable third parties (the Reform Party and the Green Party) were both taken down by outside &#8220;celebrity&#8221; candidates, Pat Buchanan and Ralph Nader, who split the parties and caused deep divisions within them.</p>
	<p>But, yes, let&#8217;s keep arguing back and forth that Nader was completely blameless in 2000, if it makes you feel better.
</p>
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		<title>by: CBrachyrhynchos</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/21/naders-rumbling-please-god-no/#comment-483623</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:50:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/21/naders-rumbling-please-god-no/#comment-483623</guid>
					<description>Ailurophile: You know who was blamed over on Kos for Ford's defeat? 

Gay rights activists in NJ. I kid you not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ailurophile: You know who was blamed over on Kos for Ford&#8217;s defeat? </p>
	<p>Gay rights activists in NJ. I kid you not.
</p>
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