Good grief. Is the Clinton team and its surrogates using my predicted “playbook”? It’s not as if Obama’s record of public service doesn’t supply enough ammunition to stir debate and doubt as Camp Hillary seeks to retain the black vote it has in SC (or, say, bring up the McClurkin debacle — oh wait, that might raise the Big Gay Topic again), but her folks simply cannot help themselves and take this path instead.
* Have a black surrogate toss out a race-tinged attack and later deny that the race dog whistle has been blown. Check out this mind-blower from the founder of Black Entertainment Television and Clinton supporter Robert L. Johnson.
At a rally here for Mrs. Clinton at Columbia College, Mr. Johnson was defending recent comments that Mrs. Clinton made regarding Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. She did not mean to take any credit away from him, Mr. Johnson said, when she said that it took President Johnson to sign the civil rights legislation he fought for.Unfortunately his mop-up job sucked big time.“And to me, as an African-American, I am frankly insulted that the Obama campaign would imply that we are so stupid that we would think Hillary and Bill Clinton, who have been deeply and emotionally involved in black issues since Barack Obama was doing something in the neighborhood - and I won’t say what he was doing, but he said it in the book - when they have been involved.”
My comments today were referring to Barack Obama’s time spent as a community organizer, and nothing else. Any other suggestion is simply irresponsible and incorrect.Rule #1 of non-denial denials, Bob — it’s apparently more in vogue these days to claim phrase confusion, than oh, you know, dropping an A-bomb like that. Jack and Jill Politics:
Come! On! Now! You really don’t expect me to believe that when you said he “was doing something in the neighborhood - and I won’t say what he was doing, but he said it in the book…” that you were referring to community organizing??! I mean I’m sure it’s hard for you to recognize community organizing, especially if it targets your claim to fame, but you are clearly a little rusty on how to run a media empire.Johnson served on Bush’s Social Security privatization scheme commission in 2002, for his sage wisdom that since blacks die younger, they get less from SS, therefore Bush knows best.In fact, you know what this excuse sounds like. SHUCKIN AND JIVIN!! See, Mr. Cuomo? This is an appropriate use of the term, and I’m allowed to say it, because that’s what Johnson is doing.
More tips from the playbook used by Clinton campaign are after the jump.
Let’s look at some of the other tips from the playbook that have already been deployed:
* Claim you simply couldn’t find the right phrase you were looking for. As mentioned above, Andrew Cuomo tried hard with this boner of an excuse after saying this:
“You can’t shuck and jive at a press conference. All those moves you can make with the press don’t work when you’re in someone’s living room.”The clean up:
“It was never about Obama in the first place,” Cuomo told me of the use of the phrase, which he said he was using “as a synonym for ‘bob and weave’.’”* Bemoan the fact that it’s difficult to attack your main opponent based on sleaze and vague race baiting (as opposed to Obama’s record). Melanie Levesque, a state representative in Brookline, New Hampshire and a member of African-Americans for Hillary wants to go there:
“I’m very concerned that you can’t state [Barack Obama’s] middle name, you can’t state his record and you can’t state his past life,” she said. Asked if she was referring to Hussein, his Muslim middle name, and his admitted use of drugs, including cocaine, in his youth, she said, “Yes.”* Make sure rube dispensible supporters spread misinformation based on anti-Muslim bias.
Two Iowa supporters, Jones County coordinator Judy Rose and Linda Olson, a volunteer coordinator in Iowa County, were caught e-blasting the rumor that Obama, a member of the United Church of Christ, is a Muslim “Manchurian Candidate” intent on taking down the U.S. It included this language: “Let us all remain alert concerning Obama’s expected presidential Candidacy. Please forward to everyone you know. The Muslims have said they Plan on destroying the US from the inside out, what better way to start than at The highest level.* Rope-a-Dope Race Dog Whistles don’t work if tied directly to the campaign. That’s what got former Clinton national co-chair Bill Shaheen in trouble. He should have farmed this one about “vetting” Obama out.
‘’It’ll be, ‘When was the last time? Did you ever give drugs to anyone? Did you sell them to anyone?”’ said Shaheen, whose wife Jeanne is the state’s former governor and is running for the U.S. Senate next year. ‘’There are so many openings for Republican dirty tricks. It’s hard to overcome,'’ Shaheen said.Of course when he got the boot, he had to use the time-tested apology and disclamer that his statements weren’t authorized by the campaign when his id took over.
* The play ignorant, “I was misunderstood” checklist, after floating comments to prey on anti-Muslim sentiment out there. Bob Kerrey put this tactic into use after blowing the Muslim dog whistle.
“It’s something by the way I have told Barack Obama when I’ve met with him. It something that I’ve spoken about before. So this is not something that just sort of came out of the head birth out there in Iowa. I’ve thought about it a great deal. I’ve watched the blogs try to say that you can’t trust him because he spent a little bit of time in a secular madrassa.And more…
“It’s probably not something that appeals to him, but I like the fact that his name is Barack Hussein Obama, and that his father was a Muslim and that his paternal grandmother is a Muslim. There’s a billion people on the planet that are Muslims, and I think that experience is a big deal.”All this nonsense is piling up — and it’s given birth to the Clinton Attacks Obama Incident Tracker. Way to go.
UPDATE: This is why watching campaigns go for the base level of politicking is no help for a culture steeped in gender and racial bias. This election cycle is clearly one for the books. Between the above foulitude and The Tweety Effect, we’re going to be in the gutter the whole way.
Also not afraid to “go there” — some folks out there feel this is all in the name of fun. Right. Filing the edges off of sexism.
Love her or hate her… you’ll have nonstop fun cracking nuts with Hillary. Regardless of your affiliation (Republican or Democrat) you’ve just found your new favorite kitchen tool!Sara Whitman has more.Work those thighs back into the white house. This might be the reason why Bill never strayed too far. Quite possibly THE toy of the 2008 election - A must for anyone on any side of politics! Her stainless steel thigh teeth will pulverize any nut that stands in her way to the Whitehouse.
Related:
* Filing the edges off of racism
* Obama: speaking the unspeakable about race
* The difficult discussions people don’t want to have
* Andrew Cuomo: ‘You Can’t Shuck And Jive’ at a press conf
* Huff Post: Clinton allies investigate forming ‘Anybody-But-Obama’ 527 group
* Talking New Hampshire, race, and gender issues
* Race, gender, the MSM and NH: audio from my segment on Mike Signorile Show
* Obama and race: our country is so confused
* Posts on the Obama/McClurkin debacle
Check out Liza’s place:
* From the vaults : Racial Tension Headache
* Note to Andrew Cuomo : “shuffle and jive” is not the same as “bob and weave”
62 Responses to “Time to trot out the black surrogates for dirty work”
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Don’t forget Clinton’s “guacamole and chips” speech to Latinos in Nevada. I think her next speech ought to read, “to clarify my remarks, I was merely trying to say that Latinos are like Speedy Gonzalez…”
I’m not ready to crucify a candidate because their supporters are saying stupid things (especially when no campaign is ewxactly blame-free when it comes to supporters or staff members saying or doing such things *cough* fake tears *cough* homobigots *cough*). Nor am I ready to accept that Clinton is somehow giving tacit consent or approval to launching these attacks…they have been taking what I feel is appropriate action against these offenders (unlike the Obama campaign, who keeps their worst offenders on the payroll).
I wish the Clinton campaign could be a bit smarter about picking their friends, though, or try to exercize more message control (although that’s hard with a situation like Cuomo, who’s a free-floating endorser but not part of the campaign).
Ahem
unlike the Obama campaign, who keeps their worst offenders on the payroll
No one should be allowed to play these gender and race-baiting games because the stakes are so high, and our culture is so polluted when it comes to gender and race. They have to be called out because by playing to these fears, both camps are making the problem worse, not better. The continual backpedaling, excuse-making, etc. only confirms further filing of the edges off of racism and sexism, as discussed earlier.
Ahem
Wow, the NY Post. A paragon of good reporting right there. They couldn’t get FoxNews to back them up?
I agree that none of them should do it. You know what, though? They’re *all* doing it. What I won’t agree with is a double-standard being applied to one campaign that all the others aren’t being subjected to (and it’s especially galling when it’s being applied to the female candidate on feminist sites, imho).
Not that the other campaigns have avoided criticism, but it’s easy to see where the brunt of it is being directed.
I rather enjoyed the pre-Iowa days when the election rhetoric was more about us than it was about the candidates.
And this is, of course, the problem of getting into stupid arguments about which is “worse,” racism or sexism. Because, after all, if sexism is worse than racism, then a racist attack isn’t that big a deal, right? And if racism is worse, then a sexist attack doesn’t matter.
Oh, and I had someone tell me the other day that Obama was a bad guy because his middle name was bin Laden. Of course, this was a woman who was visibly mentally ill (functioning, but clearly mentally ill), but that was bizarre.
(She said she’s voting for John McCain, so there’s a slogan for you: “John McCain — Supported by the Untreated Mentally Ill”
so when are we going to see a callout on the sexism of the Obama campaign?
Because right about now Pandagon’s crerdibility as even remotely feminist is slowly circling the drain.
Congratulations.
Is this Pandagon or Andy Sullivan’s blog?
My problem with this whole kafuffle is that it is making everyone look so stupid. I just wish that the candidates and media talking heads would send transcripts of the speeches off to their old grammar teachers to explain what was actually said. There is so much answering to expectations, preconceptions and outright stupidity that they all look stupid for just bringing it up and then their supposed allies enter the fray and the whole thing flies off the track.
This started out as such a smart race but the problem with a marathon is that EVERYONE stumbles somewhere along the way.
so when are we going to see a callout on the sexism of the Obama campaign? Because right about now Pandagon’s crerdibility as even remotely feminist is slowly circling the drain.
Oh please. I’m the one who coined The Tweety Effect, for crying out loud. And if anyone thinks I haven’t been hard on the Obama camp simply hasn’t been reading.
I’m still getting “race traitor” hate mail from my stint over at Salon for Glenn Greenwald over my “Obama hit pieces”, lol.
It’s pretty impressive to get the illustration of my point in #8 right below it. Good work, soopermouse!
Nor am I ready to accept that Clinton is somehow giving tacit consent or approval to launching these attacks…they have been taking what I feel is appropriate action against these offenders (unlike the Obama campaign, who keeps their worst offenders on the payroll).
Who specifically are you thinking of here?
I have trouble making the leap from Clinton supporters (not in any official capacity) saying stupid things to “the Clinton team and its surrogates” (in a quasi-official capacity) saying stupid things as a strategy.
To put it another way, Bob Johnson of BET and Bob Kerrey have enough of a track record making embarrassing statements that I wouldn’t presume that any similar statement would be at the behest of the Clinton campaign.
And I’m still clinging to the idea that “shuck and jive” is in fact an offensive phrase in itself, but that Cuomo actually didn’t say that Obama was doing it, or would be good at doing it. I think it’s analogous to an Obama supporter saying something like “this campaign schedule is a real bitch.”
I’ve been predicting for a long time where this was all going to go, with plausible deniability, miscues, careless comments, all of it. And all the political consultant class, hangers on, and talking head supporters know full well the toxic road we are going down. They are addicted to bottom line fearmongering bases on race and gender and if none of them are going to publicly admit it. That’s where Shaheen went terribly wrong. He inadvertently pulled the veil back.
As long as people can bleat out the outrageous, and do a retreat of some kind, the message is already out there, repeated over and over in the media. And they know it works.
I’m wondering if there’s any realization on Clinton’s/Clinton’s Team’s part that if these tactics work they have to live with the results.
Do they really want to be pariahs when it comes to the black community?…
Or is everything completely subsumed to the short term, and damn the consequences…?
That’s why I have a hard time seeing it as “tactics,” MikeEss, because it seems so obviously a repugnant set of tactics, both short-term and long-term.
Whoooo!! look at the places in deeeeeeep in DeNile Sheesh and Soopermouse! I bet they had lots of fun taking in the view at the top of BlackOne Dam. And there’s so many things to do at the temples sitting on Tarmac.
grab a clue. I am f’in sick of bloodyshirt waving, okay? When I waded into threads about lynching Tiger Woods, there were tons of irrelevant comments about Tawana Brawley. Over and Over and Over again. You can shout Jesse Jackson Jr ==Sexist and bad on Obama all you want. It would be true! Nobody denies it!
But waving the bloody flag whenever Clinton gets trashed, deservedly on her part as well, is what the right-wingers do. Talking about how this means all politicians are dirty and pox on both your houses (so as to depress voter participation) is also what right-wingers do. soopermouse, projecting these issues on Pandagon and its community just makes you look like an asshole.
Neither Obama nor Edwards are playing this game like Clinton is and neither have a history of race/sex-baiting. Their offenses happen rarely enough, and they tend to cop up to them and take much, if not most of the responsibility for being offensive.
We get it! No really! Politics is a full contact sport. But there *is* a difference between playing hard, and playing dirty.
Damn, I was harder on Sheesh than I really meant to be.
The comments are really more directed at FlipYrWig at 17, and maybe dathon, but then I’m not sure what the latter meant at 12.
Part of this was that I got the full brunt of a rant by my mother about Hillary’s tactics. We *know* she’s trying to forgoe the black vote in the primaries for a more solid white one, and then try and win us back with the alternative of a horrific Repub.
Pam Spaulding wrote:
Not allowed? Not allowed by whom?
Let’s face it: Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton and John Edwards are competing for the number one prize in the entire world, and they aren’t going to back off of a claim or perceived advantage because it isn’t particularly nice to use it.
My liberal friends all love to claim that racism and sexism is a problem of conservatives, but I’ve noted several articles by Pam and Amanda pointing out the use of such by the Democratic candidates and their campaigns.
shah8, I’ll accept being called out as “in denial,” but I don’t quite see how what I said was either “bloody shirt waving” or “pox on both your houses.”
“Not allowed? Not allowed by whom?”
Basic human decency and common sense.
As I implied above, the downside is you have to live with what comes as a result of using unsavory tactics. People should/will look at you differently. You make yourself untrustworthy, at least to certain segments of the population.
George Allen’s “macaca” incident is a great example of what happens in the most extreme case…
MikeEss wrote:
Mr Ess, they don’t care! Come November, blacks are going to cast something like 90% of their votes for the Democratic nominee, and it won’t matter who that nominee is.
Mr Ess wrote:
Question: do you think that Hillary Clinton (or Barack Obama or John Edwards) would prefer to have “basic human decency” or be President of the United States?
“Mr Ess, they don’t care!”
…and if that’s their attitude, that says a lot about the poor state of this country…
“Come November, blacks are going to cast something like 90% of their votes for the Democratic nominee, and it won’t matter who that nominee is.”
…because there’s bad, and worse. Better to vote for the lesser of two evils than just bend over and let the Rethugs have their way.
If there were any sane Republicans left, and any who could credibly run as an alternative…?
Well, I guess I/we don’t have to worry, because it’s unlikely to happen in (what’s left of) my lifetime…
“Question: do you think that Hillary Clinton (or Barack Obama or John Edwards) would prefer to have “basic human decency” or be President of the United States?”
Why limit the question to just those three? Can you honestly say that you believe McCain, Romney, Huckabee, Thompson, Giuliani are such paragons of virtue that they would be incapable of giving up their beliefs/morals to gain the presidency? Or would they sell out at the drop of a hat?
I think the evidence so far (at least during this election cycle) shows that all of them want the presidency more than anything else. They will lie, cheat, steal, slime, etc., to get that office.
The fact that we are then stuck with them for 4-years at a time is our burden…
So as far as I’ve understood some of the things Barack Obama has been saying on this subject, his stance appears to be at least in part that if you win the presidency without maintaining basic human decency, you haven’t really won something all that useful. The amount you can get done as a President who slimed one’s way to the top and took control of a country whose divisions are inflamed by your mere presence, is not as much as can get done by a President who at least didn’t actually go out of their way to make enemies on the way up. (Think Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, where scientists realize that bad news travels faster than the speed of light and invent a spaceship powered by bad news; the spaceship worked, but was never used because no one was ever very happy to see you once you arrived, so what was the point?)
(Incidentally whether Obama actually means any of that, or whether it’s actually true, isn’t the point; the point is this seems to be how the Obama campaign wants themselves to be perceived and this is how they try to present themselves in public, at least when they’re succeeding at message discipline at all.)
Oh, goody, here’s the headline we’ve been waiting for:
“Could Race Destroy the Democratic Party?”
I figured he meant playing Stickball. Am I wrong?
Now I know shah8 will call me out for poxing both houses, but the Duffy piece linked by Mnemosyne mentions only the Clinton moments (including the Martin Luther King Jr. statement, Bob Johnson of BET, and Bill Clinton’s ‘fairy tale’), even while saying that both sides have been counterpunching.
If he really wants to make the point that both sides are doing it, then he should talk about both sides; either that, or discard the “both sides” frame and just say outright that Clinton is stirring the pot and Obama is not.
I haven’t read this article but if it says what I think it says, Hillary had better back the hell away from even the mere appearance of being racist.
The GOP owns the media and they want to ruin the democrat chances to get anywhere in the elections and if Hillary thinks that she can pull her campaign and MUCH MORE IMPORTANTLY the entire race out of the nose dive that the GOP and their media flying monkeys are putting it into then she has a big ‘nother thing’ coming.
The finger prints on this ‘democrats are racist’ crap are the GOP AND Hillary’s. There is no way that a democrat can win the 2008 elections if half they try running on the racist card…
As I’ve said before, it’s not quite the democrat parties race to lose but swimming in the gutter with the racist and bigoted GOP and their brain dead ‘religious folk’ ain’t the way to win any thing other than second place.
“Oh please. I’m the one who coined The Tweety Effect, for crying out loud. And if anyone thinks I haven’t been hard on the Obama camp simply hasn’t been reading.”
Anyone who wants to be fair will notice that some campaigns get a pass and some don’t. Amanda has been making excuses for Edwards, we have seen excuses for Obama, but I am yet to see the Clinton campaign get any of the excuses the others get.
The agenda is showing.
Mnemosyne- isn’t it nice when you find someone to insult without any consequences? It’s not like people with mental problems are REAL people, right?
Let us step back from the surrogates’ sleaze, the bogus denials, the racism … all of it. Let us assume for thirty seconds that such gutter attacks are okay, just fine, that they are valid methods of politics.
With that frame in mind, am I the only one coldly furious with the Clinton campaign for using these Rovian tactics on a fellow Dem* whilst never, ever having been anywhere this tough on Bush or others?
* - Assuming that you accept that Shillary Inc. is a Dem.
Mnemosyne- isn’t it nice when you find someone to insult without any consequences? It’s not like people with mental problems are REAL people, right?
Sorry, I didn’t realize that reporting an exact conversation that I had now counts as insulting the mentally ill.
And you may not want to make too many assumptions about what my first-hand experience is with untreated mental illness, ‘kay?
“…am I the only one coldly furious with the Clinton campaign for using these Rovian tactics on a fellow Dem* whilst never, ever having been anywhere this tough on Bush or others?”
No…
soopermouse, if you picked somebody here who isn’t a member of the Mnemosyne fan club I would at least make the short list. I’ve also had some mental health issues in the past.
Put those two things together and I still didn’t think she even came close to being offensive. In fact, I found the remark quite funny.
Go ride your sanctipony somewhere else.
Glad to hear it, MikeEss. I wonder whether Shillary realizes that this is bringing many people (myself included) to the shocking realization that some of the right wing’s attacks on the Clintons for being utterly amoral win-at-all costs, utterly principled scoundrels might actually have been on the mark. I fail to see the electoral benefit of being as slimy as the most vicious liars say you are.
Thanks, seeker. I am so stealing sanctipony.
seeker6079, no you’re not…which is why I’m on No-Mercy-Mode. Between literally talking my mother down from considering Mike Huckabee of all people, slamming a friend for joking about how Britney Spears can replace her children…in prison, the many people at Daily Kos willing to make excuses for Hillary, and all the terrible economic news out since yesterday, I haven’t had a great day (but yesterday was pretty good, I helped a woman move out and had a great dinner with her and the ex).
FlipYrWig, I had a problem with the denial of innuendo in the comment at 17. I thought that you had made way to many “surely there’s an innocent explanation” clauses…
I’m betting that Mnemosyne is having a well-deserved snigger at how I accidentally made these latter sentence stand as an explanation for the former.
Feel free. I’d have had it up on urban dictionary earlier if I hadn’t lost my gd’d password.I don’t know about you, but I’d rather have a high horse for my traveling ministry.
Ponies are evil-ier. Ask any equestrienne.
Using “untreated mental ilness ” as a derogatory term is not offensive?? excuse me for my not so tough skin.
“And you may not want to make too many assumptions about what my first-hand experience is with untreated mental illness, ‘kay? ”
I’m sure you also mention your black friends immediately after using the n word as a derogatory term. So spare me the bullshit.
Then again, in a place where we see the “Shillary” moniker taken out… I guess Pandagon’s feminist days are indeed over.
soopermouse, Shillary is a perfectly valid knock on Hilary Clinton’s corporate and establishment backing and preferences, every bit as valid as Tricky Dick.
Do you mind standing on the tarpaulin, please? Your heart is bleeding all over my carpet and blood’s hell to shift.
Using “untreated mental ilness ” as a derogatory term is not offensive??
How was it derogatory? If anything, I was making fun of McCain and implying that you would need to be mentally ill to vote for him voluntarily.
I’m sure you also mention your black friends immediately after using the n word as a derogatory term. So spare me the bullshit.
No, I mention my own mental illness. Sorry to disrupt your image of perfectly healthy me spitting on the mentally ill.
FlipYrWig, I had a problem with the denial of innuendo in the comment at 17. I thought that you had made way to many “surely there’s an innocent explanation” clauses…
Well, I’ll accept that I’m generally in favor of the innocent explanation, because I trust that high-profile Democratic politicians in the 21st century are smart enough not to be racially divisive _as a strategy_. It’s just too stupid. Call me naive; it wouldn’t be the first time.
And I’m also generally in favor of distinguishing comments made by “supporters,” comments made by official campaign staff, and comments made by the candidate him- or herself.
I don’t think anyone should use the phrase “shuck and jive,” just like I don’t think anyone should use the phrase “jew him down,” but I also don’t think Cuomo said that Obama _did_ the former. I went back and looked at the transcripts.
I teach English, and so my instinct is to figure out what someone was probably trying to say, only to have it come out a mess. I do tend to give the benefit of the doubt. That’s what I’m doing here.
“Well, I’ll accept that I’m generally in favor of the innocent explanation, because I trust that high-profile Democratic politicians in the 21st century are smart enough not to be racially divisive _as a strategy_. It’s just too stupid. Call me naive; it wouldn’t be the first time.”
I wish I could in good faith give them the benefit of the doubt. I’ve just seen too much…
Shillary is a perfectly valid knock on Hilary Clinton’s corporate and establishment backing and preferences
*crosses arms* I for one am ideologically opposed to the use of puns.
So…basically what you’re saying is that if you don’t support Clinton because of her pro-Iraq War vote, her hawkishness on Iran, and her ties to Rupert Murdoch and the K Street crowd, you’re not a feminist.
soopermouse, are you reading “shillary” as “shrillary”?
Apparently it was all getting too ugly for anyone to take, because both Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton made statements today that we’re all Democrats. So, hopefully, the partisans on both sides will take a step back, take a deep breath, and realize that we’re gonna have to vote for one of these or say hello to President McCain (or, worse, President Huckabee) next November.
it shows what kind of politician and candidate clinton is when the man she gets to do her hatchet job is bob johnson, friend of george w bush, the man who calls the estate tax and social security “racist,” and CEO of the misogynistic BET. in the immortal words of charlie brown: augh!!
I leave to vote ‘uncommitted’ in the Michigan primary…
the man she gets to do her hatchet job
Come on. You don’t know that she’s “getting [him] to do her hatchet job.” In fact, you’ve just documented quite well that Bob Johnson is perfectly capable of being a dillweed dimwit all on his own, with no orders from the Clinton campaign cabal.
Mnemosyne
“How was it derogatory? If anything, I was making fun of McCain and implying that you would need to be mentally ill to vote for him voluntarily.”
And how in the hell is that NOT derogatory?
Do you have any fucking idea as to what you are talking about or do I need to explain it to you in detail?
“So…basically what you’re saying is that if you don’t support Clinton because of her pro-Iraq War vote, her hawkishness on Iran, and her ties to Rupert Murdoch and the K Street crowd, you’re not a feminist. ”
Nice strawman you got going there.
Do you have any fucking idea as to what you are talking about or do I need to explain it to you in detail?
Detail, please. I would love to hear your view on how someone with disordered thinking makes a perfectly rational electoral choice.
“Then again, in a place where we see the “Shillary” moniker taken out… I guess Pandagon’s feminist days are indeed over.”
Since the “Shillary” nickname was, IIRC, bestowed upon Clinton by progressives due to her pandering to the right and her corporate connections, I’m curious as to how you can say that “Pandagon’s feminist days are indeed over” because Pam used that nickname, and made a post critical of the Clinton campaign, and then accuse me of setting up a straw man.