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	<title>Comments on: Woe to she born with a uterus</title>
	<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/13/woe-is-she-born-with-a-uterus/</link>
	<description>Just another WordPress weblog</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 23:29:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Shaenon</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/13/woe-is-she-born-with-a-uterus/#comment-482094</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 23:17:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/13/woe-is-she-born-with-a-uterus/#comment-482094</guid>
					<description>It's interesting that Flanagan complains about Juno's pregnancy being too easy, because one of the things that struck me about the movie was how it refutes the common anti-choice argument that a girl should just carry the pregnancy to term and give the baby up for adoption, since it's &lt;i&gt;so easy&lt;/i&gt;!

&quot;Juno&quot; shows how, even in the absolutely ideal circumstances--the girl is reasonably well-adjusted, the parents are supportive, they find a wholesome upper-middle-class family to adopt the baby, there are no medical complications--pregnancy is difficult, and not just because you have to pee every two hours and everyone at school calls you &quot;The Cautionary Whale.&quot;  Once Juno decides to bring the fetus to term, she feels responsible for it and worries about being able to provide it with good, supportive parents.  When the couple she has lined up to adopt turns out to be less reliable than she thought, she's devastated.  It's not necessarily a matter of just popping out a baby and cheerfully handing it over to whoever wants one.  And, yeah, that's even true in the &quot;fairy tale&quot; scenario where everything turns out all right.

Of course, Flanagan seems to be upset that things aren't even more difficult and traumatic, that there are teen moms (not to mention teens who had abortions) who have the audacity to walk around not being scarred for life, but, well, that's Caitlin Flanagan all over.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It&#8217;s interesting that Flanagan complains about Juno&#8217;s pregnancy being too easy, because one of the things that struck me about the movie was how it refutes the common anti-choice argument that a girl should just carry the pregnancy to term and give the baby up for adoption, since it&#8217;s <i>so easy</i>!</p>
	<p>&#8220;Juno&#8221; shows how, even in the absolutely ideal circumstances&#8211;the girl is reasonably well-adjusted, the parents are supportive, they find a wholesome upper-middle-class family to adopt the baby, there are no medical complications&#8211;pregnancy is difficult, and not just because you have to pee every two hours and everyone at school calls you &#8220;The Cautionary Whale.&#8221;  Once Juno decides to bring the fetus to term, she feels responsible for it and worries about being able to provide it with good, supportive parents.  When the couple she has lined up to adopt turns out to be less reliable than she thought, she&#8217;s devastated.  It&#8217;s not necessarily a matter of just popping out a baby and cheerfully handing it over to whoever wants one.  And, yeah, that&#8217;s even true in the &#8220;fairy tale&#8221; scenario where everything turns out all right.</p>
	<p>Of course, Flanagan seems to be upset that things aren&#8217;t even more difficult and traumatic, that there are teen moms (not to mention teens who had abortions) who have the audacity to walk around not being scarred for life, but, well, that&#8217;s Caitlin Flanagan all over.
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		<title>by: Phoenician in a time of Romans</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/13/woe-is-she-born-with-a-uterus/#comment-481957</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:08:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/13/woe-is-she-born-with-a-uterus/#comment-481957</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;“If women are so inferior to men, how come 90% of the Darwin Award winners are male?”&lt;/i&gt;

Chicks can't do &lt;b&gt;anything&lt;/b&gt; right.

I'm reminded of the theory which points out that your average English matron never sees one murder in her lifetime, let alone one a week, and deduces that Miss Marple is a very very clever serial killer with a talent for framing others...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>“If women are so inferior to men, how come 90% of the Darwin Award winners are male?”</i></p>
	<p>Chicks can&#8217;t do <b>anything</b> right.</p>
	<p>I&#8217;m reminded of the theory which points out that your average English matron never sees one murder in her lifetime, let alone one a week, and deduces that Miss Marple is a very very clever serial killer with a talent for framing others&#8230;
</p>
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		<title>by: Mold</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/13/woe-is-she-born-with-a-uterus/#comment-481949</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 15:50:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/13/woe-is-she-born-with-a-uterus/#comment-481949</guid>
					<description>Darwin Award &quot;winners&quot; are mostly men because they have more opportunities to be stoopid.  Nobody interferes with 20-something males that are boobish. A female in the same situation is gently reminded of her need to not be foolish and even removed from the danger.

My brother indulged in extreme sports and the attitude was &quot;BWBB&quot;.  My like-minded cousin (F) was chided, derided, and threatened with psychological testing if she continued.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Darwin Award &#8220;winners&#8221; are mostly men because they have more opportunities to be stoopid.  Nobody interferes with 20-something males that are boobish. A female in the same situation is gently reminded of her need to not be foolish and even removed from the danger.</p>
	<p>My brother indulged in extreme sports and the attitude was &#8220;BWBB&#8221;.  My like-minded cousin (F) was chided, derided, and threatened with psychological testing if she continued.
</p>
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		<title>by: e.</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/13/woe-is-she-born-with-a-uterus/#comment-481943</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 15:39:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/13/woe-is-she-born-with-a-uterus/#comment-481943</guid>
					<description>I had a kid at 17 - kept him, raised him, was the single best thing I've ever done.  I have absolutely no regrets - except that I married his loser dad.  I'm not against abortion, but this was in 1972 and abortion was only available in New York.  It was the best decision for ME to carry pregnancy to term and raise my son.  Sure - it wasn't easy at the time - but I look back and laugh at how horrific I thought it was. You know, nobody ever talks about the benefits of teenage pregnancy.  The right kind of kid will grow and mature from the experience.  My son and grandkids are truly the light of my life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I had a kid at 17 - kept him, raised him, was the single best thing I&#8217;ve ever done.  I have absolutely no regrets - except that I married his loser dad.  I&#8217;m not against abortion, but this was in 1972 and abortion was only available in New York.  It was the best decision for ME to carry pregnancy to term and raise my son.  Sure - it wasn&#8217;t easy at the time - but I look back and laugh at how horrific I thought it was. You know, nobody ever talks about the benefits of teenage pregnancy.  The right kind of kid will grow and mature from the experience.  My son and grandkids are truly the light of my life.
</p>
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		<title>by: kac90b</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/13/woe-is-she-born-with-a-uterus/#comment-481789</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:12:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/13/woe-is-she-born-with-a-uterus/#comment-481789</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;I’m totally on board that abortion is the least bad resolution to teenage pregnancy, but the fact remains — it is still traumatic.

Anyone else out there who has been pregnant who can comment on this? &lt;/i&gt;

Um, no.  Again I say...ABORTION WAS NOT TRAUMATIC.  Find that hard to wrap your head around?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I’m totally on board that abortion is the least bad resolution to teenage pregnancy, but the fact remains — it is still traumatic.</p>
	<p>Anyone else out there who has been pregnant who can comment on this? </i></p>
	<p>Um, no.  Again I say&#8230;ABORTION WAS NOT TRAUMATIC.  Find that hard to wrap your head around?
</p>
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		<title>by: Arun</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/13/woe-is-she-born-with-a-uterus/#comment-481755</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 05:06:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/13/woe-is-she-born-with-a-uterus/#comment-481755</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;Romantic comedy movies where the heroine is supposed to be “fun” and “funny” almost always have her humour come out of clumsiness. I have yet to see her be funny out of wit.&lt;/i&gt;

See the Hindi movie actresses Kajol or Juhi Chawla in their romantic comedy hits - their humor comes from sharp wit.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Romantic comedy movies where the heroine is supposed to be “fun” and “funny” almost always have her humour come out of clumsiness. I have yet to see her be funny out of wit.</i></p>
	<p>See the Hindi movie actresses Kajol or Juhi Chawla in their romantic comedy hits - their humor comes from sharp wit.
</p>
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		<title>by: Arun</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/13/woe-is-she-born-with-a-uterus/#comment-481754</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 05:05:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/13/woe-is-she-born-with-a-uterus/#comment-481754</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;Personally I like to look at the Darwin Awards as the ultimate answer to every troll who whines about how men made the world and women are too dumb to run things and blah blah. “If women are so inferior to men, how come 90% of the Darwin Award winners are male?&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

This is exactly the Lawrence Summers argument about women's inherent lesser abilities in science.  Men take risks, he would say, more so than women, or men are more represented in the extremes of IQ or ability or whatever distribution, and so more Darwin awards, but also more Nobel Prizes will go to men.  The extreme lows and highs of ability are with men, and so that is why men run the world. etc. etc.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Personally I like to look at the Darwin Awards as the ultimate answer to every troll who whines about how men made the world and women are too dumb to run things and blah blah. “If women are so inferior to men, how come 90% of the Darwin Award winners are male?&#8221;</i></p>
	<p>This is exactly the Lawrence Summers argument about women&#8217;s inherent lesser abilities in science.  Men take risks, he would say, more so than women, or men are more represented in the extremes of IQ or ability or whatever distribution, and so more Darwin awards, but also more Nobel Prizes will go to men.  The extreme lows and highs of ability are with men, and so that is why men run the world. etc. etc.
</p>
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		<title>by: Arun</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/13/woe-is-she-born-with-a-uterus/#comment-481753</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 05:02:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/13/woe-is-she-born-with-a-uterus/#comment-481753</guid>
					<description>If women are so inferior to men, how come 90% of the Darwin Award winners are male?” - Because women doing crazy things is generally not reported?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>If women are so inferior to men, how come 90% of the Darwin Award winners are male?” - Because women doing crazy things is generally not reported?
</p>
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		<title>by: Arun</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/13/woe-is-she-born-with-a-uterus/#comment-481752</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 05:00:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/13/woe-is-she-born-with-a-uterus/#comment-481752</guid>
					<description>Mortality during pregnancy and childbirth was very high in Victorian times, or so I've been told (50 times higher than today?).  Certainly that is an objective fact that has to be factored into understanding Victorian attitudes towards sex.  Certainly the question below comes into much greater force when pregnancy is a lottery with death.

&lt;i&gt;We, too, have a deep commitment to girls, and ours centers not on protecting their chastity, but on supporting their ability to compete with boys, to be free — perhaps for the first time in history — from the restraints that kept women from achieving on the same level. Now we have to ask ourselves this question: Does the full enfranchisement of girls depend on their being sexually liberated? And if it does, can we somehow change or diminish among the very young the trauma of pregnancy, the occasional result of even safe sex?&lt;/i&gt;

The answer our ancestors should have arrived at:
&lt;i&gt;Does the full enfranchisement of girls depend on their being sexually liberated? &lt;/i&gt; is &quot;No&quot;.

They arrived at &quot;Yes&quot;, and so no sexual liberation meant no enfranchisement.



</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Mortality during pregnancy and childbirth was very high in Victorian times, or so I&#8217;ve been told (50 times higher than today?).  Certainly that is an objective fact that has to be factored into understanding Victorian attitudes towards sex.  Certainly the question below comes into much greater force when pregnancy is a lottery with death.</p>
	<p><i>We, too, have a deep commitment to girls, and ours centers not on protecting their chastity, but on supporting their ability to compete with boys, to be free — perhaps for the first time in history — from the restraints that kept women from achieving on the same level. Now we have to ask ourselves this question: Does the full enfranchisement of girls depend on their being sexually liberated? And if it does, can we somehow change or diminish among the very young the trauma of pregnancy, the occasional result of even safe sex?</i></p>
	<p>The answer our ancestors should have arrived at:<br />
<i>Does the full enfranchisement of girls depend on their being sexually liberated? </i> is &#8220;No&#8221;.</p>
	<p>They arrived at &#8220;Yes&#8221;, and so no sexual liberation meant no enfranchisement.
</p>
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		<title>by: Rebecca, Mad Gastronomer</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/13/woe-is-she-born-with-a-uterus/#comment-481747</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 03:20:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/13/woe-is-she-born-with-a-uterus/#comment-481747</guid>
					<description>Jen -- Am I &quot;impacted&quot; by my pregnancy and abortion?  Sure.  It was all quite unpleasant, especially the morning sickness, and it gave me a new level of understanding about myself.  It has, in fact, made me a stronger person, and while I'm not glad that it happened, I'm glad that I could turn the experience to my advantage.  Am I traumatized by it?  Oh, hell, no.  The whole thing was a pain, yes, and I was and still am sad that I, who wants children badly, had an opportunity to have one and had to choose not to do so.  But that's a far cry from it being a &quot;traumatizing&quot; experience, and every time you repeat the lie that abortion is &lt;i&gt;always&lt;/i&gt; traumatizing, you reinforce the cultural forces which &lt;i&gt;make it&lt;/i&gt; traumatic for some women.  So please stop.

Trish -- While I see what you're saying about Gilmore Girls, in defense of one of my favorite shows, let me just point out that the character of Lorelei is completely horrified at the idea of other teen girls making the choice she did, and every time the subject comes up, she tries to discourage them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Jen &#8212; Am I &#8220;impacted&#8221; by my pregnancy and abortion?  Sure.  It was all quite unpleasant, especially the morning sickness, and it gave me a new level of understanding about myself.  It has, in fact, made me a stronger person, and while I&#8217;m not glad that it happened, I&#8217;m glad that I could turn the experience to my advantage.  Am I traumatized by it?  Oh, hell, no.  The whole thing was a pain, yes, and I was and still am sad that I, who wants children badly, had an opportunity to have one and had to choose not to do so.  But that&#8217;s a far cry from it being a &#8220;traumatizing&#8221; experience, and every time you repeat the lie that abortion is <i>always</i> traumatizing, you reinforce the cultural forces which <i>make it</i> traumatic for some women.  So please stop.</p>
	<p>Trish &#8212; While I see what you&#8217;re saying about Gilmore Girls, in defense of one of my favorite shows, let me just point out that the character of Lorelei is completely horrified at the idea of other teen girls making the choice she did, and every time the subject comes up, she tries to discourage them.
</p>
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