Oh no he didn’t. (TPM):
You see folks, this is what I’m talking about. This whole “post-racial” nonsense is a simple fantasy or delusion uttered by people who think race isn’t a problem anymore. I’d like that to be the case as much as anyone else, but the fact of the matter is for Democrats, the alleged party of tolerance, this kind of bush-league nonsense exposes the real problem — that the lack of engagement on how race and political races bring out the worst in people, and plays to the base fears of voters.During an appearance yesterday on talk radio — at almost the same time as Obama co-chair Jesse Jackson Jr. questioned Hillary’s tears — New York Attorney General Andrew Cuomo used some words with a very troublesome racial history, apparently in reference to Barack Obama.
“It’s not a TV crazed race. Frankly you can’t buy your way into it,” Cuomo said, according to Albany Times Union reporter Rick Karlin. He then added, “You can’t shuck and jive at a press conference. All those moves you can make with the press don’t work when you’re in someone’s living room.”
As predicted, Andrew Cuomo unleashes “shuck and jive” then issues a statement that his comments were “taken out of context,” since he later complimented Obama. [Be prepared to see that statement trotted out frequently in the future when it comes to incidents like this.]
“It was never about Obama in the first place,” Cuomo told me of the use of the phrase, which he said he was using “as a synonym for ‘bob and weave’.’”My god. I know the smarter-than-thou political set thinks we’re all rubes out here, but come on, this is incredible. This is what “shuck and jive” means, and it doesn’t have anything to do with boxing, rope-a-dope, or anything benign:
“To shuck and jive” originally referred to the intentionally misleading words and actions that African-Americans would employ in order to deceive racist Euro-Americans in power, both during the period of slavery and afterwards. The expression was documented as being in wide usage in the 1920s, but may have originated much earlier.What’s really sorry is that in this DKos thread there are people actually running for cover and either 1) denying Cuomo supports Senator Clinton (he endorsed her, but is not part of the campaign) or 2) that the use of shuck and jive isn’t a big deal and Obama supporters are exploiting this “gaffe.” This is sad, and the vitriol in the thread only proves my point about how raw race discussions can be when they only surface in situations like this, rather when tempers aren’t heated.“Shucking and jiving” was a tactic of both survival and resistance. A slave, for instance, could say eagerly, “Oh, yes, Master,” and have no real intention to obey. Or an African-American man could pretend to be working hard at a task he was ordered to do, but might put up this pretense only when under observation. Both would be instances of “doin’ the old shuck ‘n jive.”
DnA:
What I wish Obama would say, but won’t and shouldn’t:
The only way Obama can win is by not taking the bait. Unfortunately, if he wants to keep the goodwill of white voters, he has to play down what was an flagrantly racist insult.Sigh. The downward spiral. Obama cannot take the bait lest he be seen as the angry negro. I have been blogging for some time now about the Democrats willing to “go there” that will be paired with equal amounts of innocent “deniability”. As I said, we’re going to see that “out of context” bs a lot more now.It’s nice of Mr. Cuomo to lift his face out of a plate of Spaghettios and take off his mirrored shades to comment on the Democratic Primary. Will he be breaking my legs so as to keep me from running off the plantation, or is he going to get Paulie Walnuts to do it?
See this is why I can’t run for office.
And make no mistake, the eruptions of misogyny toward Clinton from all corners make it clear how raw those discussions are as well. This campaign is going to be extremely messy and divisive; the question is whether people are going to actually engage these problems head on, or keep playing whack-a-mole when uncomfortable, offensive events like these pop up. Pols, pundits and people in general are doing everything they can to make this election “post-racial” and too much is emerging that not much has changed.
In an earlier post on this topic, one of my commenters said this:
How about the reasons relating to Obama’s relative lack of experience; his record; his positions (or lack thereof); the uplifting but vague speeches? Don’t these progressives you speak of talk to you about these sorts of concerns?I replied:Are you trying to zero in on race, specifically, for the purpose of a discussion, without discounting that people might have other reasons for not making Obama their first choice? Or are you asserting that race is the primary consideration in this election? I was unclear when you brought this up yesterday. Still am.
by: Pollyanna @ Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 14:33:23 PM EST
I would hope that Obama’s record can and should be challenged. That is what ultimately is relevant.These aren’t mutually exclusive, the fact that we’d like to ignore the uncomfortable obvious is just that, uncomfortable.What I am saying is that there is an undercurrent of race-related discomfort that people are trying to will away. As you will see in the entry I just posted, when something does erupt, the problem is quite telling, and denying that a candid discussion is needed isn’t helpful.
***
UPDATE: The response of course, by Cuomo’s office, reflects a severe case of CYA because of the sh*storm this raised. Here’s the relevant part of the transcript, now on Newsday’s site. You decide how it doesn’t apply to Obama if it refers to “both leading candidates.”
Seriously, how does this exonerate Cuomo? He still hasn’t admitted to the extremely poor judgment and apparent limited vocabulary that caused him to pull “shuck and jive” out of his posterior. It’s tiresome to have to deal with the lack of responsibility for one’s own bloopers of this sort. Just admit screwing up and move along.Update: Cuomo’s office contends that the quote is being taken out of context — it applied to both leading candidates and both Iowa and New Hampshire, and was offered as an explanation of the health of the early primary process, rather than an explanation of Hillary’s NH win.
They played the interview for us, and the tape supports their interpretation. Although earlier in the interview Cuomo calls Obama a “beautiful symbol” but asserts that Hillary is more knowledgable, repeating Clinton talking points, the “shuck and jive” reference applies to the inability of any candidate to avoid direct voter contact in states like Iowa and New Hampshire.
We’ve posted a partial transcript after the jump.
Partial transcript of Cuomo radio interview, supplied by AG’s office:
Andrew Cuomo: “You know I’ve spent a lot of time in other races, especially in Iowa and in New Hampshire, back with Gore and back with Clinton. Those races require you to do something no other race does, you know, and I like it, and I agree with you, it’s a good thing.
“It’s not a TV-crazed race, you know, you can’t just buy your way through that race …It doesn’t work that way, it’s frankly a more demanding process. You have to get on a bus, you have to go into a diner, you have to shake hands, you have to sit down with ten people in a living room.
“You can’t shuck and jive at a press conference, you can’t just put off reporters, because you have real people looking at you saying answer the question, you know, and all those moves you can make with the press don’t work when you’re in someone’s living room.
“And I think it’s good for the candidates, I think it makes the candidates communicate in a way that works with real people because you know in a living room right away whether or not you’re communicating, and I think the questions are good and I think the scrutiny is good, so you can, you can say they’re small states and they get a lot of attention — they are very good for the process, I believe that.”
After all, the use of the above image was perfectly appropriate back in the day to most Americans, though no one would be caught dead saying this is an appropriate marketing tool today. Times change, friends, and what was once acceptable in America at some point became unacceptable, a cultural norm has shifted. Shucking and jiving clearly needs to be retired.
Related:
* Obama: speaking the unspeakable about race
* Race, gender, the MSM and NH: audio from my segment on Mike Signorile Show
[Standard tired disclaimer: I have not and will not endorse any candidate in the primaries.]
88 Responses to “Andrew Cuomo on Obama: ‘You Can’t Shuck And Jive’ at a press conf”
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Well, I for ONE think that he’s EXTREMELY well-spoken.
P.S. Don’t debates count?
All I can do is state the obvious: Cuomo’s statement is unacceptable.
[Note to Amanda: Here’s the cue for what we were discussing earlier]
shuck and jive? from Andrew Cuomo? There is no “out of context.”
I’m going to have to turn off the net access in addition to the television.
How the hell can anyone claim to use a phrase with the word “jive” in it and then be like “what, I didn’t think that was a racial comment!?”
I’m still trying to think of something to say other than sitting here going “Guh?” with my jaw on the floor.
And, please, even the most sheltered of white people know that “shuck and jive” is a racial term. How stupid does he think we white people are?
Is this the new “wide stance” for ‘08? Or does he have Bush-mouth disease? Or is Cuomo just stupid?…
What’s Cuomo doing for an encore? Insinuating that Obama supporters will engage in Kenya-like violence because the elder Mr. Obama hailed from Kenya?
As for “Hillary Tears”, I’m beginning to wonder if it is a convenient way for the press to explain her win in NH while avoiding the harsher and unthinkable reality that women turn out to vote in large numbers and women can run the country (I say women because Pelosi will likely be a facet of the next regime, regardless).
The Clinton team had better be careful, they’re really alienating a lot of Democrats. I know Hilary’s suffered from a lot of unfair misogynistic bullshit - but mostly from the press. It’s shocking how often the racial attacks on Obama seem to come from Hilary’s supporters.
A commenter at my pad nailed this:
Whether he intentionally meant to insult Obama or simply subconsciously went there, he owes the campaign an apology. It is not a character flaw to screw up and say the wrong thing, it is a character flaw to refuse to recognize one’s mistakes and correct them.
My reply: It’s the whole fear of being tagged racist. The fear is so pervasive that a simple acknowledgment of thoughtlessness and an apology is avoided, rather than this ridiculous “out of context” excuse.
And BTW, even if an American just happened to not be familiar with “shuck and jive” as a negative phrase, I can’t imagine anybody could live to adulthood in this culture without knowing that “jive” means lies. WTF?…
And, please, even the most sheltered of white people know that “shuck and jive” is a racial term.
Indeed…but don’t miss the dKos thread that Pam links to, in which a large number of relatively unsheltered, and otherwise fairly intelligent-seeming Clinton supporters claim that nobody–certainly neither they nor Cuomo–had any idea that the term had anything to do with race.
The comment threads on this season’s dKos candidate diaries are truly classic examples of the narcissism of minor differences.
Seriously, this could be one of those great “teaching moments.” But, instead Cuomo takes up a ridiculously indefensible position.
I dunno. On the face of it, this seems very offensive, but my Pollyanna side prefers to give people the benefit of the doubt—especially when they’re on my side of the political fence. So I’m going to look at this as one of those foot-in-mouth moments that can happen to anyone in a live interview.
Of course, it would help if Cuomo would apologize at least a little.
I had no idea the history of that phrase.
Wow. Between the insulting tears remarks of Obama’s team and this ridiculous BS here I’d be pretty damn tempted to just yank my so-called supporters out of the public eye altogether if I were one of the candidates. With friends like these…
Oh and I didn’t know the history of it either (and imho it would be absurd to expect us all to know every nuance and subtextual remark of a given cultural background), but I would still owe someone an apology if I said it once they clued me in to what I did.
Between the insulting tears remarks of Obama’s team and this ridiculous BS here I’d be pretty damn tempted to just yank my so-called supporters out of the public eye altogether if I were one of the candidates.
Don’t worry, neither will, and we have only seen the tip of the iceberg of “missteps” to come with a woman and black man running plausible winning campaigns.
I hate it when I’m right about this whole matter of trying to sweep the toxic effect of institutionalized racism and sexism under the rug bites us all in the ass. Our discomfort is enabling this.
I had no idea the history of that phrase.
You had no idea that the phrase “shuck and jive” was a racial term? Have you never seen Airplane, to name just one cultural artifact that the term “jive” shows up in?
My guess is that you’ve got consultants insisting candidates stay “on message” (and the message is Health Care, Iraq, Economy) to the exclusion of all other issues. I think we might see race and gender discussed in the context of those “big three” but not directly as topics in and of themselves.
Before today, the only place I’d ever heard that expression was in Super Punch Out, where it is indeed used as a synonym for ‘bob and weave’, so it’s not improssible to grow up without knowing of its racist origins. (Probably pretty unlikely in this case, though, unless Andrew Cuomo is a big SNES fan.)
“Have you never seen Airplane, to name just one cultural artifact that the term “jive” shows up in?”
I’ve heard “jive” before and knew it was associated with black culture, but I didn’t realize that it had the loaded and insulting history behind it that it does. I thought it was similar in culture to a Keanu Reeves “bogus”-type slang word (if that makes any sense). Yes some of us are that sheltered, I guess :/
Honestly IMHO often these phrases get lost in our vernacular or slang. Take ‘rule of thumb’ I didn’t know the history of until college. I bet you most people don’t know the history of ‘rule of thumb’. This might not be the case here, I don’t know. All I know is that I didn’t make the connection to the phrase until Pam pointed it out.
Cuomo’s full of nonsense. He’s an elected official in one of the most diverse states in the country, which thrives on one of the most diverse cities in the world. There is no shelter here. Or, rather, there was no shelter in the 1970s when a phrase like “shuck and jive” resonated with the race-consciousness of the broader public.
My problem with this is that the Clinton campaign is willing to accept a victory that’s won on racist tactics, up to and including the tactic of distancing themselves from the “unfortunate” comments one of their supporters make (which, of course, they knew nothing about). And if Edwards’s or Obama’s campaign (or the Republicans, by the way) tries to capitalize on people’s fear of women in power, they’re guilty of the same kind of opportunistic chauvinism. That, my friends, is privilege.
Saying something stupid or insensitive is not a crime. Making excuses for it…is.
You’d think they’d learn something from watching Republicans flail around on it…
I bet what you “know” about “rule of thumb” has been largely debunked, too.
There was a hoopla about it a few years ago. see also “snopes”.
That, my friends, is privilege.
Yep. And making an apology along the lines of “Doh! I didn’t know that. I’m sorry I was so obliviously stupid and insulting” means admitting that you have privilege to start with. That also means thinking about whether you should have that privilege that you didn’t earn, and possibly doing something about it.
Too much to ask of Cuomo, obviously.
I am one more person who has never heard of “shuck and jive before. Like Sheesh, I knew that “jive” was associated with black culture, but didn’t really know the nuances of what it implied. I have a degree in African history, but apparently I need to brush up on my African-American subjects!
Of course, I would never have used a phrase like that without being sure I knew what it meant. I am not THAT clueless!
I bet what you “know” about “rule of thumb” has been largely debunked, too.
Well there you go. I think that supports my point.
I have to agree with Pam Spaulding, above, on both her points. While it’s possible Cuomo calculated this as race-baiting, it’s much more likely that he actually was clutching for something like “bob and weave” and, with Obama on the brain and nursing the universally neurotic American obsession with racial taboos, he let it slip out. We all do this, good white liberals and angry black conservatives and everyone in between. Taboo racial words and images claw at the backs of our minds, begging to be let out into the world; the uglier the phrase, the harder it is to resist. When they slip out, they don’t necessarily represent our beliefs; sometimes quite the opposite. But they do reflect the cultural mythology that none of us, black white or otherwise, is capable of exorcising from our minds.
And of course, it would be great if Cuomo could come out and admit this. A “teaching moment”, as another commenter said. But the American public is very, very uncomfortable with public discussions of racism, especially when racism is acknowledged as a complex issue without clear-cut saints and devils. Still: he fucked up, and it’s his responsibility to deal with it responsibly, instead of this lame dodge. Oh well.
Yeah, another vote for the “I had no idea” camp here.
Holy cow, I’m a bit embarrassed and worried. I’ve definitely used the phrase on occasion before, and /did/ mean it something along the lines of “bob and weave”– I can only hope I never accidentally used it in a truly cringe-worthy context.
And I guess I’ll accept the accusations of being “ridiculously privileged and sheltered,” but I don’t think my experience has been that out of the ordinary. (Then again, I did think the phrase was “taken for granite” for an embarrassingly long time, so perhaps I’m just more oblivious than most…) But I can fully understand and believe the people claiming they didn’t have any clue the phrase held any racial connotations.
Great. I wonder what other phrases I’m oblivious about I need to purge from my lexicon now.
As someone who had the misfortune to participate in that Daily Kos thread, (and it’s follow up “But the Clinton’s have Black friends!!” - okay, that not really the title, just the message) I’m greatly enjoying the sanity over here. What a relief! Thanks for this.
“… the Clinton campaign is willing to accept a victory that’s won on racist tactics, up to and including the tactic of distancing themselves from the ‘unfortunate’ comments one of their supporters make”
I think that assumes too much re: the Clinton campaign and its tactics and intentions. I mean, come on. I’m a John Edwards supporter; I make an insensitive/bigoted/ignorant remark in a public forum. Does this really reflect on Edwards? No. If he was asked to comment on my remark, would he be right to repudiate it? Yes.
Just because Cuomo is a high-profile political figure, does that necessarily mean that every public statement he makes is sanctioned by the Clinton campaign? No.
I think his comments are execrable, but I will not make the leap to blaming Clinton for them as if she orchestrated the whole thing. That’s too much of a leap for my logic to make it across the gap …
Maybe I’m pointing out the obvious here, but besides the terms he used being obviously racist, he seems to be implying that Obama, as a black guy, is naturally dishonest.
Apologizing for the wording doesn’t really fix the racism behind his statement.
Boy, that’s uh….risible. The only thing I could say in defense of Cuomo is that New Yorkers know he’s said and done stupid things during primaries before (gubernatorial 2002, and even those were just ill-phrased, not actively offensive) I can understand some people growing up sheltered as to the meaning of some phrases, but not a former Cabinet Secretary/son of a governor/guy who was once married to a Kennedy.
A white person in the public eye bears the responsibility to know what the words that come out of his or her mouth mean, and to bear the blame if those words offend. The Golf Channel reporter (Kelly Tilghman) who said Tiger Woods’ young opponents would need to lynch him, but claims not to have meant anything racial by it? Either she’s stupid and ill-informed–in which case, why does she have a high-profile sports journalism job–or she’s insensitive about racism.
It’s up to Cuomo and Tilghman to police what comes out of their mouths and make proper apologies.
It’s regrettable that there’s no gain in it for a Tiger Woods or a Barack Obama to say, “Yeah, that did strike me as racist, and I’m sick of that garbage.” If they evoke even a hint of Al Sharpton’s rhetoric, they may scare off the friendly white people.
I didn’t know the background of the phrase either, but honestly, I cannot remember the last time I heard it used in ANY context and cannot imagine that I ever heard it in my life unless it related to a black person or to stereotypical (and negatively perceived) “black behavior.”
But I didn’t have to know the background, nor did Cuomo. It doesn’t even have to be inherently negative to be racist. It just has to be, or be perceived to be, something that singles him out as African-American in a way that is unrelated to the point.
There can be genuinely honest misunderstandings. If, for example, Cuomo had talked about “tap-dancing” at a press conference, some people could see racist overtones; others would not, and it would in fact require context. “Shuck and jive”? Not. Ever.
*winces* I have heard white people use such phrases around minorities to try and be “down” with them (which is still stupid and insulting, but not deliberately or maliciously insulting).
Salon updated their coverage to say Cuomo was pretty clearly misquoted:
(h/t Andrew Sullivan)
I’ve heard “jive” before and knew it was associated with black culture, but I didn’t realize that it had the loaded and insulting history behind it that it does. I thought it was similar in culture to a Keanu Reeves “bogus”-type slang word (if that makes any sense). Yes some of us are that sheltered, I guess :/
Unfortunately, in our society, generally speaking, if something is “associated” with black culture, it usually has a negative association, especially when used by a non-black person.
With this phrase, we’re not talking about something like “niggardly,” which is a legit word with its roots in another language. This is a phrase that’s specifically associated with black culture and has been around for decades.
Andrew Cuomo is not just some schmo off the street. He’s a politician from a political family and the New York state Attorney General. How do you think his black constituents felt hearing him not only use the phrase, but then claim that he didn’t think it had any racial implications?
Does anyone remember when NY Senator D’Amato called his opponent a “putzhead” on camera in front of a microphone effectively ending D’Amato’s campaign?
It had to be explained to me (sheltered white girl raised baptist on the north side of StL).
“Unfortunately, in our society, generally speaking, if something is “associated” with black culture, it usually has a negative association, especially when used by a non-black person.”
I don’t buy this, sorry. I’m white and I think that there are plenty of cool things associated with black culture that don’t have racist overtones. Is it somehow racist for white people to use and/or co-opt these things? Like is Eminem racist for being a rapper or something? I’m not trying to be obtuse and I might be missing your meaning here.
“How do you think his black constituents felt hearing him not only use the phrase, but then claim that he didn’t think it had any racial implications?”
Not to be repetitive, but I think I’ve already stated that he should apologize and that it was a moronic thing to say. He has no grounds for being obstinate about it at all.
Three little words I never want to hear again….”out of context” I am SO SICK of those words being used as an excuse for saying something offensive that really requires an apology.
Oh, and BTW, I grew up in Ireland and Australia, I’ve never been to the US and my contact with African American people has been limited to one or two brief meetings. Everything I know about this culture has been learned from popular culture. And I knew that “shuck and jive” is a racist phrase, though I only just learned it’s origins today. So if I can know that, I don’t see how sheltered you’d have to be as an American, not to know that it’s a racist phrase.
I don’t buy this, sorry. I’m white and I think that there are plenty of cool things associated with black culture that don’t have racist overtones. Is it somehow racist for white people to use and/or co-opt these things? Like is Eminem racist for being a rapper or something? I’m not trying to be obtuse and I might be missing your meaning here.
I’m not who you’re responding to, but I would just say, watch any given episode of The Office.
You know that scene in “Philadelphia” …
Your Honor, everyone in this
courtroom is thinking about sexual
preference, sexual orientation,
whatever you want to call it.
They’re looking at me, and
wondering about it…
(looking at Andrew)
They’re looking at Mr. Beckett, and
wondering about it. They’re looking
at Mr. Wheeler and wondering about
it. They might even be looking at
you and wondering about it. So,
let’s get it out in the open. Let’s
talk about what this case is really
about: the general public’s
hatred… our loathing, our fear of
homosexuals.
Whenever Pam poses the larger question of why we don’t discuss these things, I think of this scene.
Actually, it wasn’t just a synonym for bob and weave. It was a special move used by a Black character that described how he’d shift and confuse the (white) main character.
So the usage in the video game was also racist.
The More You Know….
Is it somehow racist for white people to use and/or co-opt these things?
Some people would say yes. You’ve really never even heard people of color complain that their culture is being co-opted by white people? You haven’t heard complaints about suburban white boys listening to gangsta rap? The Offspring had a hit song mocking exactly that kind of guy.
But I didn’t have to know the background, nor did Cuomo. It doesn’t even have to be inherently negative to be racist. It just has to be, or be perceived to be, something that singles him out as African-American in a way that is unrelated to the point.
That’s the thing, I too am on the list of people unfamiliar with the origins of the phrase, but who had an awareness there were racial connections of some sort with the word “jive”. Wouldn’t it be obvious, if there is some sort of racially charged aspect to a phrase but you don’t know exactly what it means, then wouldn’t the sane and safe thing be to just use some other wording to make sure you’re not saying something other than you think you’re saying? Isn’t this just common sense?
My problem with this is that the Clinton campaign is willing to accept a victory that’s won on racist tactics, up to and including the tactic of distancing themselves from the “unfortunate” comments one of their supporters make
Hm. It seems like if you accept this line of argument then you’d have to level a similar charge against Obama, for the bizarre, “her appearance brought her to tears” statements of Jesse Jackson Jr. referenced at the top of this post. (I am an Obama supporter but I found Jackson’s comments pretty horrifying.)
Politicians and sports casters should be careful, no doubt.
I will say I HAVE heard “schuck and jive” used to describe, say, the actions of a running back avoiding tacklers. So in the sense of “bob and weave”, it has a tiny bit of validity. But “bob and weave” would have been FAR more preferable, racially neutral, and better spoken.
The sportscasters gaffe, where she said “Lynch [Tiger Woods] in a back alley”, was also egregious, since she almost certainly meant “mug”– huge fuckup there.
Covering your ass about either of these later is just pathetic, and self-defeating.
“And I knew that “shuck and jive” is a racist phrase, though I only just learned it’s origins today. So if I can know that, I don’t see how sheltered you’d have to be as an American, not to know that it’s a racist phrase.”
Well, good for you. Here’s your “I’m not clueless about culture” merit badge.
“You haven’t heard complaints about suburban white boys listening to gangsta rap? The Offspring had a hit song mocking exactly that kind of guy.”
I have, but I guess I thought it was more about the intent than the action itself.
@ mcc,
exactly, that’s what i was saying in my comment. A victory won on male privilege helps no one (except, you know, men).
I’m an Obama supporter, and i think John Edwards has made good gestures toward shutting down the chauvinist line at least once. Edwards once said in a debate that if anybody isn’t voting for Obama because he’s black, or isn’t voting for Clinton because she’s a woman, he doesn’t *want* their vote. I think that’s great. I think it’s important for candidates to keep their surrogates on message by making it clear that they’re 1) running on their records and against other candidates’ records, not prejudices and 2) running *against* racism and sexism and other entrenched inequalities, which is something we should all hope our political system can do, or else it’s worthless.
I can believe that people don’t know what “shuck and jive” means. I can believe that even practiced public speakers have brain farts and say unintended things. But I cannot believe that anyone who’s not significantly sheltered from popular culture doesn’t know that “jive” has racial connotations relating to African Americans. If Cuomo even knew that much, he should have known his mouth was leading him into shark-infested waters and engaged the emergency anti-foot mouth-guard.
I will say I HAVE heard “schuck and jive” used to describe, say, the actions of a running back avoiding tacklers.
Yes, that’s the context in which I’ve heard it the most too, which isn’t totally surprising: black athlete, white stereotype about quick feet or deception. But I actually don’t find it at all hard to imagine hearing a phrase and internalizing its connotative meaning without realizing its racist origins. Think of “cakewalk.”
Excuse me, but I speak jive. And this is not a racist statement.
It could be worse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6OselVRTsM
“Well, good for you. Here’s your “I’m not clueless about culture” merit badge.”
Hey, I wasn’t trying to be smug, I was pointing out that the word “jive” and the phrase “shuck and jive” can be easily understood as racist or at least having “racial undertones” even by people who have never visited the United States, so I repeat, I don’t know how sheltered you would have to be not to know that or to think that wouldn’t be a sensitive issue.
But since you brought it up, yeah I do like not being clueless about culture and I think it’s quite a helpful way to be when trying to engage with the world.
“It could be worse.”
Indeed it could. It could have been Duane “Dog” Chapman giving his support to Sen. Clinton…
“Hey, I wasn’t trying to be smug”
…*cough* Bullshit *cough*. Whatever gets your rocks off though, pal.
Bee Gees Lyrics: “Jive Talking; You’re telling me lies. Jive Talking; You wear a disguise.”
Anyone who lived through the Disco era should remember this…
The Bee Gees? What a bunch of turkeys.
Funny, the “I speak jive” or whatever it is line from Airplane came up in a conversation I was having today. I haven’t seen the movie, so it was a little lost on me. Clearly it’s time to rent it, as it’s come to my attention twice in 12 hours.
Anyways, another data point for not knowing the phrase “shuck and jive” but being aware that “jive” has negative racial connotations. And I agree: he should grow the f*ck up and apologize for it like a grownup. Jeez.
“…*cough* Bullshit *cough*. Whatever gets your rocks off though, pal”
WTF? What is your problem with what I said?
Excuse me, but I speak jive.
Oh, geez — now forevermore I’m going to picture Barbara Billingsley when I see seroj’s name.
FlipYrWhig mentioned cakewalk, which has a racial history I was hitherto unaware of.
Y’all know the icky underpinnings of “eeny, meeny, miny, mo,” right? Kipling was one to use the N-word in lieu of the tiger. If you didn’t know before, now you do.
Never liked him. Never felt he was truly progressive, just the entitled twit offspring of a real progressive politician. Cuomo the younger has always seemed resentful of being denied the dynasty he feels is his due, but he doesn’t have the chops his father had.
Bad choice of words but according to Cuomo: (wink wink) did you see that he’s black (wink wink) you want him to be president (wink wink) do you really want a black man as president? (wink wink) you did know that he’s ‘black’ (wink wink)
It’s all transparent to me… I feel that belief in evolution is lost on many people in this country. We came so far from the ‘blacks only’ days of Strom Thurmon and sank back down… Sad. Tragic even.
Vanya, I honestly reserve my outrage for the MSM rather than each team’s campaign.
And I think most people in America are more influenced by what’s being spun in the MSM.
Jive’s main appearances in the general culture comes from the Bee Gees singing about their lying girlfriend (no race implied) and the move Airplane where Jive is just a dialect of English. Nothing particularly negative. I think in the NE, a lot of the negative racial connotations are missed.
I swear, the Clintons and their idiot supporters may accomplish something that hasn’t happened in 8 decades– drive African-Americans away from the Democratic Party.
First Hillary goes trashing MLK and everything he accomplished, while Bill pulls out his latest hatchet job on Obama. Then New Hampshire winds up with fishy results that at least raise the question of fraud– with auditable hand-counted ballots (not to mention exit polls and to say nothing of the pre-election polls) clearly favoring Obama while the unauditable, opaque and eminently hackable Diebold polling machines miraculously show a Hillary advantage. The stench of fraud and vote-rigging stinking up the joint, with idiots like some of the morons at DKos carrying water for those trying to suppress investigation of these inconvenient facts.
Then, Andrew Cuomo goes all minstrel show Jim Crow on Obama with an idiot comment like that.
My friend out in Indiana noted that with all the bad blood building up right now, with the racist comments on top of the election fraud in New Hampshire, that the African-American community is full of so much rage, there’s gonna be ugliness worse than in the late 1960’s if Hillary is nominated. Not just the protests, but the nastier stuff, the rioting, the looting and all the other nastiness. Bill Clinton has destroyed his own legacy and respectability by participating in this stupidity. The Clintons have given the country a poisoned chalice.
“Shuck and jive” should be known to be anti-black racist in phrasing. Really, it is pretty obvious inmost contexts, and if not, wouldn’t you want to find out what the sportcasters mean?
Jive, by itself, can refer to music and/or dancing… which had its origins in the black culture, but it’s one of those things where mainstream white culture thought it was cool and is positive about it. As in the phrase “Who would have thought an old man like Len could still dance the jive?” But that is definitely not Cuomo’s context.
By the way, when you’re on the bottom rung of the ladder in office politics–probably in any hierarchy– people still find it helps to do the enthusiastic response to really stupid orders which one then ignores. So why the hell hasn’t there become a generic, non-racially charged phrase for it.
FWIW, I’ve most recently read “shuck and jive” as a description of *GWB’s* performance before the press, over the last few years. I don’t remember if it was pervasive or just one columnist/blogger though. Is it possible HRC’s man was channeling this influence?
Pam’s update (which I missed earlier) rightly maintains that “shuck and jive” is an offensive phrase regardless of the context, but I think it’s clear from the transcript that Cuomo didn’t say that Obama was trying to do it, or good at doing it.
Hillary may well succeed in doing something that hasn’t happened in 8 decades– drive African-Americans away from the Democratic Party.
First, there was Hillary crapping all over MLK’s legacy and then insulting Obama relative to MLK, with Bill Clinton piling on with his own juvenile stupidity, and with all the allegations of madrassahs and drug-dealing swirling as well.
Then the New Hampshire primary occurred with features infuriatingly reminiscent of vote fraud– auditable, trackable paper hand-counted ballots favoring Obama (not to mention exit polls and to say nothing of predictive polling) while non-auditable, proprietarily counted “Diebold ballots” conveniently give Hillary a bounce and reverse those results.
Then Andrew Cuomo joins in Hillary’s Obama-bashing club by putting on his best minstrel show Jim Crow act. Such a shame for Bill Clinton to toss out his legacy in such shamefulness and arrogance.
I was a big fan of Bill Clinton and then Hillary, but now I hate the Clintons so much, I’ll vote for McCain or (ugh) even Huckabee, whomever the Republicans nominate, if Hillary were nominated. As someone else said, though I disagree with their stands, at least they have some integrity.
And the African-American community is right near the boiling point. Between Hillary’s slights of MLK, the New Hampshire fraud and now Cuomo’s stupidity, there’s so much rage in the African-American community now that it’s all about to boil over.
A friend out in Indiana pointed out that if Hillary is nominated in the midst of this, it’s going to be the ugliest sides of the late 1960’s all over again– not just the protests, but the urban riots, looting and so forth. There’s only so much BS you can take, and US cities are gonna be in flames.
Sheesh, I don’t know if your problem is genuine misunderstanding, parochialism, or if you’re just having a cranky day, but I’ll try one last time to make it clear what I meant. I expect you’re familiar with the phrase “Even a child could understand X about Y ” - well, that’s the point I was trying to make - EVEN I with no experience (like a child) of US culture can understand the racial implications of that phrase then surely an American journalist, working within his own culture and making language and communication his specialty should have been able to recognise the implication of what he was saying. So in my view he was either grossly insensitive or trying to make insinuations about the African American candidate, either of which is reprehensible.
Now does that clear it up or have I used too many long words? (See? I also do patronising at no extra cost
I hadn’t heard the phrase before either. “Shuck” makes me think of corn and “jive” makes me think of dancing (with no racial connotations at all). I (re)learned today that I have a lot to learn…
Shuck. and. jive.
Andrew Cuomo is a racist pig and a big fat fucking liar. He did fucking know what that means. Fucking liar racist pig asshole.
Sometimes I wake up in a good mood, and then I just hate everybody. (present company excepted, of course.)
Bush doesn’t ’shuck and jive’ at news conferences. No, he stands there and recites the bull shit told into his ear and the obedient press take down every word and then wait for their tummy rub and they’re off to quote the dear leader’s words and start marketing the ‘great Bush lie™’.
It’s very much an authoritarian wet dream. Bush is the largest follower of the ‘do as I say, not as I do’ plan of anyone that I know.
The world has gotten very tired of hearing his staccato bullshit. ‘Don’t torture because we don’t torture’. ‘Value life because we value life’. Yeah, right…
Is this maybe a generational thing? I was born in 1978 and I’ve never heard ’shuck and jive’ used as a negative phrase toward a black person. I’ve lived in Michigan all my life, mostly in areas with very few black people. In high school literally, one.
I’ve not often heard it used at all, but when I have, as far as I can recall, it’s been toward a politician trying to dodge the presses’ questions.
A friend out in Indiana pointed out that if Hillary is nominated in the midst of this, it’s going to be the ugliest sides of the late 1960’s all over again– not just the protests, but the urban riots, looting and so forth. There’s only so much BS you can take, and US cities are gonna be in flames.
Channeling Jonah Goldberg much, there?
Is this maybe a generational thing? I was born in 1978 and I’ve never heard ’shuck and jive’ used as a negative phrase toward a black person. I’ve lived in Michigan all my life, mostly in areas with very few black people. In high school literally, one.
I was born in 1960 and have heard it often and used it. I’ve never heard whites use it but I always thought it referred to “song and dance” or BS’ing or “performing for whitey.”
I’ve used it in reference to Martin Yan (Chinese PBS chef) because he seemed to buffoon for his PBS show yet when I saw him on a Chinese channel, seemed to talk like a regular human being.
I’m wondering where Andrew got the term. I would expect it from someone who had a lot of exposure to blacks instead of the opposite.
Okay, I had no idea what “shuck and jive” meant and can’t recall hearing it before now. I also associated jive with “hand jive” - anyone remember that? My excuse is that I’m Canadian and grew up with a different set of racial issues. Also, I blocked out the disco era.
That being said, the non-apology indicates to me that Cuomo knew damned well that what he said was offensive and is speaking in racially charged code now, which makes him as asshole.
I was born in 1971, and I only found out about the racial history of the phrase somewhat recently; before that I would have grouped it innocuously with phrases like “give the usual song and dance” or “tap-dance around.” But now even those, on further reflection, seem minstrel-show-ish.
Cuomo knows by now that it’s a phrase with a troublesome origin, but he’s trying to find a middle path between saying “I didn’t know it was offensive when I said it, and I’m sorry” and “I’m stunned that someone would think I was being deliberately offensive.” I guess it’s hard to be apologetic and indignant at the same time…
Spot on, Sheesh. Rebel L: wait, forget it.
But, yeah: congratufuckinglations.
Oh, well: okay, I knew it was a racist thing to say, but your attitude…?
Seriously? I also know that in IE (have quite a few friends there) there are many misconceptions about America. Oh, and it seems the state I grew up in, many preconceived notions are held by friends and strangers in IE. Also, strangely, the metropolitan area I grew up in, and reside in the heart of- oh, yes- people upon meeting me in Ireland and The British Isles, always comment on how “friendly” we are. I always have to laugh (as it is meant as a nice compliment)- as I know they’re not that well-acquainted with our culture.
Kind of like, you know, meeting someone who is “black”, er, twice in your life.
Why don’t you start telling us all about America, and let us call you culturally insensitive/incompetent.
Please educate me, dear sociologist!
Tell me all about Kansas (KC suburbs), Kansas City, MO (proper) and KU! Let’s see if you get anything correct. Well, they’d only be gross generalizations, at that, as you’ve maybe had a maximum of 2 interactions?
But, thanks for the check, really. Now, go check yourself.
If it had been unintentional ignorance, the only proper response was to say “Oh, sorry. I wasn’t thinking. I won’t say that again now that I realize it’s historically been used in an offensive way.” Saying anything instead of, “Whoops. Sorry about that” is like fighting for the right to be offensive.
I agree about the “only proper response.” “All I meant was” and “If you knew me you’d know” usually make things worse. But I understand the defensive impulse.
Honestly wasn’t trying to come across so obnoxious. Lesson for me then.
You know what ? I was going to just leave it there and shake my head at how easy it is for communication like this to be misunderstood and chalk it up to experience, but I honestly feel like Sheesh and esp. Holly are being a little unfair. I never said I knew America, I was trying to point out that the word “jive” had racial connotations that were fairly well known around the world so this broadcaster had no excuse for ignorance, in my view. I don’t pretend to know better than others and if you took it that way, then I’m honestly sorry. But people have opinions about other cultures ALL THE TIME. On this very site have been many discussions about infibulation/FGM with people contributing ideas about the whys and wherefores, the vast majority of whom have never been near one of the countries where it is practiced or known someone who has been a victim of it. Here in Australia recently a terrible court decision caught the attention of many US blogs with posters feeling free to have an opinion
most of whom have never been anywhere near an Aboriginal settlement or met an indigenous Australian - and nor should they have to to have an opinion or care as racism and sexism are universal problems around the world and one shouldn’t have to have direct knowledge in order to comment.
Genuinely, I wasn’t putting myself up as someone who knows better than you, I was saying THE BROADCASTER IN QUESTION should have known better, and I really thought I made that clear. And it’s ridiculous to suggest I tell you what it’s like in Kansas or anywhere else since I never tried to tell anyone how it is anywhere, or ever suggest that Irish people, or Australian people handle things better. The only person I criticised was the BROADCASTER. And I was hardly alone in that. I genuinely am sorry if people felt I was criticising the average American, or people on this site, I really was not and that is a genuine misunderstanding.
Rebel L- get what you’re saying re: criticizing the broadcaster.
What I was hearing was:
Sheesh, I don’t know if your problem is genuine misunderstanding, parochialism, or if you’re just having a cranky day, but I’ll try one last time to make it clear what I meant. I expect you’re familiar with the phrase “Even a child could understand X about Y ” - well, that’s the point I was trying to make
and:
Three little words I never want to hear again….”out of context” I am SO SICK of those words being used as an excuse for saying something offensive that really requires an apology.
Oh, and BTW, I grew up in Ireland and Australia, I’ve never been to the US and my contact with African American people has been limited to one or two brief meetings. Everything I know about this culture has been learned from popular culture. And I knew that “shuck and jive” is a racist phrase, though I only just learned it’s origins today. So if I can know that, I don’t see how sheltered you’d have to be as an American, not to know that it’s a racist phrase.
I was reacting to my perception that you were, indeed, being condescending- especially toward Sheesh. That’s all. I am sort of offering an apology, here. I tend to get pissy, when I feel that one is attacking another.