But let me reread this before dinner to see how I offended shah8.

I apologize for making the comparison of AIDS/Herpes vs. sexism/racism. I labored over an analogy, and now regret it. I recognize the scourge of racism is far closer (indeed linked) to AIDS, than the over-hyped herpes. I meant to indicate ordinal, not cardinal position.

But particularly I meant to say that we can make judgments, as we must in order to allocate resources for the fight against disease or racism, regarding relative virulence. You seem to agree when you say:

Hell, even in Boswana, in which the country is pretty homogenous, they treat bushmen poorly (tho’ not as poorly as many other country treats their minorities).

Apparently you think you can weigh the relative virulence of racism. I agree. And your points about the matrilineal cultures of Africa and Asia are well taken, and certainly to the credit of those peoples.

But my point wasn’t to compare whether Africans or Asians are as sexist as Europeans. The topic here, which I did not choose, is whether sexism or racism is worse. I stated my point clearly, that ALL men are sexist, and their sexism is rooted deeper than their racism. Even in white men like me. Though I’m neither racist nor sexist in any normal sense of the words, having the good fortune to have been born to parents who believed in a liberal education, as yours apparently did. (They are disappointed with the invective, though.)

Sexism derives from the universal experience of childhood where the rule is that bigger, stronger kids are also smarter. Sexism says: “You women stopped growing first so we must be smarter. Wait, that’s not true? Well we can still beat you up.” And we men don’t just act as if we think that being bigger makes us smarter, we had the then president of our most prestigious (and previously all male) university Harvard, Lawrence H. Summers, all but saying so publicly.

Am I wrong? Aren’t all men across the world, just like the Europeans I know best, sexist, now and in the past? Have your studies contradicted this? Has there ever been a place where the men were beaten in their homes more than the women were? Ever? Thus it has always been. Read your Ten Commandments. Rest on the Sabbath. And your children. And your slaves. Even your ox. But not your wife. It pointedly doesn’t mention the wives. Someone had to do the dishes. When the slaves and oxen rest, the women are still forced to work. Here and there. And it’s not racist to say so.

Calling it racist to claim sexism is worse than racism is a weak argument. You don’t balk at calling African men racist (e.g., in Botswana), but scream racist if I call them sexist. Could you be having trouble dealing with your own sexism?

one. Queen Boudica was the leader of a rebellion, not a queen in the regal sense. Insofar as she was a “queen”…uh no, that was just the surviving leading woman of the recently widowed and raped survivors of the roman occupation. She was simply the highest status local women in the rebellion.

two. Your statement of how black and asian men were big bad sexists were ultimately silly. Of course sexism existed, but it always did so in the local context.

three. It merely pleased me to spit out some facts about african rulers. The deeper point is that much of Africa and SE Asia was matrilineal. Not that it meant that women were dominant, but in some of these societies women had very strong social positions. Perhaps not equal to men, but sometimes better, and sometimes (especially now) worse.

four. I am snide because I have no patience for fools. Slander and goal-post moving isn’t a good way to get my respect. In any event, you don’t have the facts on your side anyways, and comparing the harms of race and sex to aids and herpes is a dubious proposition. Both racism and sexism are virulent and fatal to the men and women of the deep south as well as the women of Salem. Herpes Simplex viruses is encounted by 90%+ of people, and it kills few, mostly due to encephalitis. I’m not sure how to take your assertion, aside from the minimizer it was probably meant to be.

five (with utmost exasperation). You refuse the simple assertion that *neither* racism or sexism is solved, instead pointing to african and asian kings as if that was at all a rational debating point. Well duh, the local ruler of the people was black (as viewed by modern americans), or asians–and not Prestor John! Hallelujah!! Of course, when one looks closely, well…Egyptian politics certainly likes to trash levantines–Asiatic (immigrant) Scum was quite the oft-written language in their histories. The Japanese certainly oppressed the Ainu from the very beginning, and they *still* do. In all very large regional entities, there are ethnic minorities that get trashed. Hell, even in Boswana, in which the country is pretty homogenous, they treat bushmen poorly (tho’ not as poorly as many other country treats their minorities). But of course, it’s simpler to think of all africans as brothers and sisters of the same ethnic group to you, eh?

I gave you enough of a benefit of the doubt.
With no further ado, I abjure your (probably racist) ass…debate someone else.

Your point was that Asian and African cultures weren’t and aren’t sexist? Not close to the truth by a long shot and I think you know it.

Black men have ruled, asian men have ruled, white men have ruled, but women have always been second class citizens. You don’t need to be a sociobiologist to understand that it derives from men being stronger and more violent. Or do you think this is just a cultural artifact?

And I support no “contest” about race and sex as you snidely put it (but pointedly not until you weigh in on one side of the “contest”), but rather an understanding of the challenges we face in ending racism and sexism. They are not the same. Sexism is more pervasive and will be much harder to eradicate.

AIDS and herpes are both viral oppressors of the human race. They have different modes of oppression. Studying one can help cure the other. But they are different, one is worse, and it does no insult to those with herpes to say that AIDS is worse and more intractable.

I mean no offense to those oppressed by racism to express my concern that sexism has always been more pervasive, and will be harder to eradicate. And I understand that due to the history of slavery in this country, black men have it worse, on average, than white women at this time.

You *ARE* aware of the source of the name Candace, right?

Oh, you might also be aware that Africa has most of the major female regents in the pre-Sail-era? With many of the rest being in certain parts of Southeast Asia. Himiko was the first non-fictional ruler of Japan, for instance.

Not that we’re in any sort of contest about race and sex, no sirree!

for the last time, racism and sexism are different modes of oppression. I mean, I could also ask when was the last time superficial differences were used to deliniate who was who and who got what?

It’s just not worth it.

If fear of “other” is at the root of -isms, don’t you agree that men and women differ more than men of different races?

Hasn’t the demeaning of women been more consistent through history?

Haven’t black men ruled some cultures? Were women equals there?

When have women dominated and been the oppressors?

The logical error is taking the peculiarities of our particular culture and assuming that represents history.

There have been Asian and African empires where men of color have been in charge. Do you think they were free of sexism?

My, that’s a lovely straw man you’re working on there. No one’s arguing that sexism isn’t pervasive throughout human history. So is the fear/demonization of anyone perceived as “other”, which is what racism’s rooted in. If you have the secret to digging that out of human consciousness, then I wish you’d share it.

There have been Asian and African empires where men of color have been in charge. Do you think they were free of sexism?

Yes I can see the day racism will end.

We will have sexism when racism is a distant memory.

I can see the end of racism.

Oh, really?

It’s not just institutional racism that’s still a problem.

I think you’re really stretching to see condenscension. But as I said, I think Steinem should have been less concerned about offending people. There’s always going to be some people with delicate sensitivities.

And I think that the fact that you’re dismissing the concerns that I’ve seen shared by many women of color as “people with delicate sensitivities” explains volumes about why many women of color remain convinced that feminism is by and for white women only.