This country has so many issues ahead of us, the economy, Iraq, health care, our shredded civil liberties, yet the fact that we as a country still cannot discuss race; we deny the role it plays in the political discourse when discussing Obama. There isn’t a discussion of the tried and true race-baiting tactics that have been used by both parties to stoke fear in the Base of The Black Man at the polls (remember the Harold Ford ads?). Will there be an honest discussion about these political tactics and how they will play out in 2008, or will pundits dance around it, making only veiled references because a frank discussion about race and its toxic role in political elections makes people uncomfortable.
After running that cowardly, vile Freeper post about Obama the night he won in Iowa, several people have posted about it. A recap of the filth:
Did the weakest Dem candidate for the general election won tonight? I think so.Some thought that there’s no point bringing attention to the bigoted fringe element, others thought this is the tip of the iceberg and it should not go unnoticed.By sending forth Hussein Osama out of Iowa, Democrats have unwittingly weakened their general election prospects.
Hussein’s exotic mixture of radical liberalism, Kwanzaa Socialism, antipathy towards the unborn, and weakness against his jihadi brethren will all come back to destroy him against almost any Republican opponent, even the snake-grope from Hope.
I think we as Republicans should be celebrating tonight at the coronation of Hussein, in whose presence millions of Democrat women, from elementary school teachers to journalism majors to law school grads to dykes on bikes will go weak in their knees.
As defenders of this great Republic, and of the pinnacle of Western civilization that it represents, we should all come together tonight and agree on a common strategy that will keep the White House from becoming a madrassa.
God Bless America, Land of the Free.
For me it’s not about elevating these bottom-feeder attacks, per se, it’s showing how raw people are willing to be under the cover of anonymity, and it gives license for other veiled attacks (remember, Hillary’s supporters were caught with their pants down perpetuating the Muslim smear in Iowa). Hillary’s supporters/camp has tried to “go there” with the casual raising of Obama’s drug use as a teen to get that story back into media play.
Freepers may be fringe, but if you’ve got Dem supplicants willing to go there who aren’t crazy, you can imagine the unending drumbeat of similar race-baiting that will go on in the mainstream GOP. And we all know what kind of third party Republican mailers end up in mailboxes not tied to the party. It’s going to be toned down very little from what that Freeper said in that post, the GOP will decry the tactics, but the low-information voters can be swayed. The people who honestly don’t think they are racist, but can be influenced by what we think is ridiculous propaganda.
Remember John Kerry and the Swift Boat attacks. He thought ignoring it and taking the high road would pass as a “response.” How wrong he was. Rovian tactics of repeating lies so often that they become a truth to the target audience is time tested.
For every fringe element there will be less ham-handed but equally offensive tactics used by the GOP to race-bait and hide behind the cover of “I’m not racist look over there at the Free Republic.” Note the community guidelines of the FR actually ban people for racist posts, so obviously this sort of thing passes muster as fair game. The key is to make the GOP answer for its Base. They court this vote, they own it.
Obama’s success has again raised the issue of his safety, given the crazies out there. Chris Rabb of Afro-Netizen reacting to the Freeper post:
It would seem that Obama’s that much more of a threat to these hateful hordes among us in blue and red states alike, as evinced in a recent racist blog post by anonymous coward hiding safely behind a computer somewhere between sea to shining sea. (Hat tip to über-blogger Pam Spaulding.)After the flip, another blogger has observations about what he feels the obligation is of the media, and the political community to address the issue of race head on.I fear Obama’s fate as a front-runner. I think about murdered politico Bobby Kennedy — an ultra-wealthy White public servant, and the fear he instilled in an unknown mass of the White citizenry in 1968. And my concern heightens that much more for Senator Obama and his family amidst of his auspicious win this evening.
Andrew White, on his blog 10,000 Things, said this:
We are ready to elect a black man President and if Obama wins the nomination we will elect him but his campaign, and everyone else on the Democratic side, is going to have to be ready to win a race war. Us white folks are mean sons of bitches when someone threatens OUR power.Moving on to the other extreme, this image and message comes to us from The Dark Wraith, who puts a disclaimer on what can only be kindly be called a disturbing graphic. Oh, the times we are living in.I’m not talking about the KKK or Stormfront obvious nutcases but mainstream Mom and Pop white folks that don’t think of themselves as racist but really don’t want those people living in their neighborhoods or dating their daughters. The ones that live in towns across America that are 88% white and 12% other and really don’t have much if any association with black society.
And make no mistake, electing a black man threatens white power, control, and dominance. Note also that Obama is a black man despite being 50% white. We have never claimed half-whites as white. They are black. We don’t claim them as even half white. They are black.
I’d love to say we’re more evolved in this country on race, but time and again, we’ve been been proven wrong.At the suggestion of Minstrel Boy of Harp and Sword, a graphic is herewith offered to Sen. Obama and his supporters.
Opinions, vows, or other declarations made in the graphic above do not in any way reflect an endorsement by Dark Wraith Publishing or its proprietor of a candidate or ways of showing support. In other words, for God’s sake, don’t blame me for this graphic: it was Minstrel Boy’s idea; I just happen to be good at graphical artwork. For my own part, I am personally opposed to incendiary imagery and words.
The ray of hope that race didn’t matter in Iowa, a 95% white state is heartening, but as we all know, it takes one crazed fool…
Inevitably, one of these campaigns will (or supporters with enough distance from the campaigns for plausible deniability) “go there” and use tactics meant to scare voters about their country being led by a black man. Everyone knows that fear works, particularly if it’s done in a subtle way. We already know the fringe element will take care of doing the hardcore Stormfront-inspired dirty work.
Can you just imagine all the pundit apologists trying to explain it away if they even bother to acknowledge the problem. It will be like Imus all over again, the MSM racing to find some color to put on the air to discuss a third rail topic for fear of the usual talking heads appearing “racist” (as re-defined by current culture).
The other oft-cited defense for avoiding discussions about race is to make the claim that they are unqualified to discuss race matters because they aren’t a person of color. This of course, is absurd, but the fear is well-founded because of the elements in the black and other minority communities that loose their cookies when anyone white makes a statement on race that remotely reflects a lack of knowledge about the issue. The blowback only drives whites further into the closet, and any opportunity for a teachable moment is lost because of defensiveness.
You all know it’s true. It’s why nearly all of my posts on tense race matters results in fewer comments, fewer attempts by readers to expose themselves, even anonymously, as potentially ignorant about one issue or another in regards to race, politics and how white privilege affects all of us.
It’s all absurd, and in this case of discussing the situation of the literal health and well being of Obama, it’s dangerous to continue dancing around these terribly difficult topics any longer and hope and pray our inattention to the issue will not result in violence, death and further misunderstandings.
That statement, btw, is no indication that I believe it’s inevitable that some crackpot will do something or that the mere discussion of it will foment anything. I think this is a straw man people use to avoid the difficult discussions. The crackpots are already out there, folks. This post is about bringing the discussion out into the sunlight, which is the best disinfectant.
That is why there is hope in this call for change by (young) Iowa voters — race discomfort is receding, and Obama has struck the right chord. Are the candidates, and the entrenched career consultants and the political machinery in both parties ready for a different kind of change — to let go of the race-baiting tactics they don’t want to admit to using to their advantage? That is the test of principle, and it might as well happen in open discussion, not behind closed doors.
What I’m reading so far doesn’t sound promising. In fact, these folks are so addicted to fear and smear in the Democratic party that they beg for the ability to “go there” lest the GOP get to it first.
Melanie Levesque, a state representative in Brookline, New Hampshire and a member of African-Americans for Hillary, said Obama lacked the experience to win the presidential election, echoing the official Clinton spin. However, she went on to add a few thoughts of her own, which are not far from the surface of the Clinton campaign.Obama wrote about it in his book, so what is there to discuss? He gave a more thorough disclosure than Big “I didn’t inhale” Bill. And I’m sorry, if someone’s middle name needs to be a campaign issue, then Hillary Clinton’s campaign is worse off than I ever believed.“I’m very concerned that you can’t state [Barack Obama’s] middle name, you can’t state his record and you can’t state his past life,” she said. Asked if she was referring to Hussein, his Muslim middle name, and his admitted use of drugs, including cocaine, in his youth, she said, “Yes.”
Two wrongs don’t make a right — Rush Limbaugh and the rest of the baiters who insist on invoking “Barack Hussein Obama” know exactly what they are doing. We all know what they are doing, and it’s bush league (pun intended) pandering to the worst instincts in people. If Clinton and other Dems want to go there, please do so, but you’re going to be called out on it — and you’re going to have to answer for the consequences of staying in the political gutter. Yes, the GOP will go after him on the most base level, and Obama will address the issues as they arise. Your “help” isn’t required on that front to “vet” anything on this front. We all know what the game is, and it’s killing them that going negative with race-baiting comes with a risk of serious blowback.
Obama’s political record is relevant and fair game, but it sure sounds like making comparisons to Clinton’s record isn’t sexy or effective enough to work, so they are itching like they are infested with fleas to go negative.
***
The always insightful Glenn Greenwald discussed the untethered fears and musings of the “intelligencia” on the Right — witness Jonah Goldberg, who seems to think if Obama loses, there is going to be rioting in the streets (do you think he envisions a sea of Big Black Bucks terrorizing the masses, hmm?):
Over at National Review, Jonah Goldberg has a “theory” about what might help Obama win in the general election. After noting that Obama will be “the first serious mainstream black contender for the White House,” Goldberg warns (emphasis added):
I wonder: in Jonah Goldberg’s “imagination,” which (ahem) “certain segments” of the American population exactly will “become completely unhinged” if Obama loses and thereby spawn “social unraveling”? And who are the people who are going so deeply to fear this “social unraveling” that they vote for Obama just in order to keep those “certain segments” in line and well-behaved?I think it’s worth imagining a certain scenario. Imagine the Democrats do rally around Obama. Imagine the media invests as heavily in him as I think we all know they will if he’s the nominee — and then imagine he loses. I seriously think certain segments of American political life will become completely unhinged. I can imagine the fear of this social unraveling actually aiding Obama enormously in 2008.
Yeah, we’re all over that race thing. Racism is a thing of the past…right? That’s what the right wing keeps telling us. They must have amnesia. What was Jena 6 about? Better yet, if that’s simply too politically complicated a matter, what about the fallout from it — some of your fellow Americans felt the license to do things like this…
* Man fired after reporting co-workers put a noose around his neck
* Arkansas pol’s bigot eruption: we’re ‘overrun by immigrants and outpopulated by the blacks’
* Neo-Nazi group publishes addresses and phone numbers of Jena 6 families (urging “readers to ‘Get in touch, and let them know justice is coming.’”)
* Four nooses were found hung from a tree at a school in High Point, NC
* White Louisiana students re-enact ‘Jena 6′ in blackface
Glenn aptly notes that there was a segment of the population that became unhinged over a presidential election. Remember the incident in Miami in 2000 when a group of Republican thugs in shirtsleeves lost their cookies during the recount? (Village Voice):
The “bourgeois riot” celebrated by Wall Street Journal columnist Paul Gigot helped stop the announced manual recount of the 10,750 undervote in Miami-Dade County. Instigated by an order from New York congressman John Sweeney to “shut it down,” dozens of screaming GOP demonstrators pounded on doors and a picture window at elections headquarters. The canvassing board, which had already found a net Al Gore gain of 168 votes, reversed a decision it had made a couple of hours earlier to begin a tally of the undervote.Those folks weren’t random GOP activists, these were aides to pols shipped down there to intimidate and affect the recount process. Glenn had me rolling with this:The mob gang-rushed a local Democrat carrying a blank sample ballot. They threatened that a thousand Cubans were on their way to the headquarters to stop the count. Several people were “trampled, punched or kicked,” according to The New York Times. The canvassing board chair at first conceded that mob pressures played a role in the shutdown — which cost Gore the 168 votes as well — but later reversed his position…
…Instead of condemning the Dade tactics, W. himself called the victory party that night to praise them, and Republicans invoked the specter of Jesse Jackson, who’d merely led peaceful protests outside election offices.
The “certain segment” creating “social unraveling” and blocking vote-counting in 2000 with their thug tactics wasn’t quite the same as the “certain segment” which Goldberg and Reynolds are ominously warning will riot in the event of an Obama loss:Amanda’s post on whether she should reconsider her endorsement of Edwards now because of the drivel on the right about Obama is an interesting exercise in musing aloud about the impact of “going there” (by the right, though as we’ve seen, when under the gun Dems don’t mind going in the race gutter if it’s expedient). I’m sure many people right now are wondering what the level of discourse will be should Obama continue to succeed.
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I lived in Virginia in 1989, the year Doug Wilder became the first black candidate to win a gubernatorial election. Going into the election, all three Democratic statewide candidates (Mr Wilder, Don Breyer for lieutenant governor, and Mary Sue Terry for attorney general) had huge leads in the polls. Mr Breyer and Mrs Terry both won handily, but Mr Wilder won by about ½ of 1%, in a large departure from the polls.
And there’s more to it than that: I almost always vote Republican, but even I voted for Mr Wilder, because the Republican gubernatorial candidate, Marshall Coleman, was best described by the slang term for the sphincter. It was really clear to everyone: a whole lot of people who would tell the pollsters that yeah, they’d vote for the black guy, when they were in the privacy of the voting booth, where no one could see them, did not vote the way that they said they would.
I have no idea what the experience of 1989 means in terms of 2008, but it seems to me that at least some of that would happen again.
A very thoughtful post, Pam. I’m really sorry that I only had one thing to say.
“Kwanzaa Socialism?” What the fuck is that?
Thank you for a terrific post. I completely agree: they’ll go there. They already have and are. And we’ve only seen the tip of that iceberg.
I had a fascinating discussion with my folks, who are white professional business owners, fiscal conservatives with with longeterm Republican loyalties, over the holiday (ie, before Iowa). My father was appalled at the bigoted email rhetoric he was getting from Limbaugh-loving friends about Obama as Muslim. He actually did research on Obama’s biography and emailed back about what he found, saying “guys, trash anybody you like based on TRUTH. This is ridiculous.” I was proud of him, but I wonder if that level of fairness would hold up in the general election; discounting the ignoratn assumptions about religion, there’s still the issue of race, and I don’t know whether my dad has it in him to keep clear of that. OTOH, my mother, whose politics are more kneejerk, commented that of all the candidates on both sides, Obama was the only one who had real, visceral appeal for her — who seemed genuine, inspired, and honest. I was gobsmacked, and yet again doubtful about the long-term durablity of her openmindedness.
Meanwhile, I am planning to have that graphic made up as a button. Maybe as a thousand buttons, now that I think on it.
What is “Kwanzaa Socialism”?
Would the DLC support Obama? Isn’t the DLC a group of ‘moderate democrats’ (read: centrist republicans) who torpedo most of the truely democratic thoughts and people in the democratic party?
Hillary is probably their poster child.
I don’t know if America is capable of pulling its collective head out of the big steaming bowl of fear that the GOP has stewed on for 7 years (and longer).
I was born in the early 60’s and lived for a while in the south and I remember seeing a few ‘whites only’ signs still in that time there. I fear that racism is fueling Obama’s surge the same way I’d vote for Huckabee in a primary because he would be a too easy target to easily knocked down. I guess we have to fear a Huckabee vs Obama ticket and that the Huckabee deal with the devil will kill his chances to destroy our nation, finishing the work of the loyal Bushies.
Any of the GOP choices is disaster and a few of the Democrat candidates rate the same.
I know one thing, I’m damn tired of ‘moderate democrat’ bull shit!
We’ve had a ‘moderate democrat’ governor that was actually re-elected and she ran on a strong environmental platform. What has been the first plank to go over the years? The environment. (Actually she probably won re-election because of the monster the GOP ran in the flesh of Dick DeVos. I don’t have to wonder what Texas politics could be like. I live in Michigan.)
But fear not… I found this inane and just strange. But I haven’t had my coffee yet..
Yeah, I was wondering who’s spearheading that whole Kwanzaa Socialism movement. I guess we have a Freeper with the inside dope…lol
I posted this over at John Cole’s Balloon Juice (where it’s been interesting to see John’s migration from knee-jerk Rethug to moderate as a result of the Cheney/Bush admin):
“Since the assassinations of JFK, RFK, and MLK all took place during my lifetime (along with multiple attempts against Ford, an almost successful attempt on Reagan, etc.), my biggest fear is some white-power nutcase going after Obama with something stronger than words.
A very scary scenario, IMHO…”
The two scariest scenarios are when somebody on your own “side” decides you are too soft (Yitzhak Rabin assassinated Israeli wingnut Yigal Amir, for example), and when the opposition crazies come out of the woodwork.
In Obama’s situation it’s hard to imagine a radical leftist targeting him, but it’s quite easy to imagine some unsavory on the “right” acting on his “beliefs”.
I surely hope that does not happen.
Having been (almost) an Angeleno during the Rodney King riots, I have fresh (and painful) memories of what it’s like when people act on their rage over injustice. Not pleasant at all, but sometimes society WILL NOT listen unless you throw a tantrum (although it’s not clear what message they will get afterward…).
Regarding Obama’s politics, I’m encouraged by his existence in the race for POTUS, but I’m disheartened by the pandering he’s had to do to get where he is.
By no stretch of the imagination could he be worse than the current gang of incompetent thus in the White House, so I’m not concerned about the job he would do if he gets into office.
He would raise America’s stature in the world immensely (although any Dem would). If he surround himself with active and competent people, he should do well, although the makeup of congress will hamper things a lot.
I wish him well, and will happily vote for him in the election. I am totally fed up with the endless parade of boring white guys as president…
I don’t know if America is capable of pulling its collective head out of the big steaming bowl of fear that the GOP has stewed on for 7 years (and longer).
The GOP counts on the fear, and sadly the Dems want to ape it without getting dirty.
I’ve just started reading Naomi Wolf’s The End Of America. As I read the second chapter, where she describes how despots consistently invoke an external and an internal threat in order to justify emergency rule, I immediately thought of Jonah Goldberg’s “fear of social unravelling” and suddenly it sounded like wishful thinking.
The authoritarian wing would love it if an Obama loss (whether in the primary or the general) “conveniently” sparked riots in black neighborhoods. Declare a state of emergency, send in Blackwater to maintain order on the streets. My fellow Americans, the inauguration will have to be delayed.
Regarding Obama’s politics, I’m encouraged by his existence in the race for POTUS, but I’m disheartened by the pandering he’s had to do to get where he is.
I’m not surprised. Fear of the Black Man requires it. Try looking at Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner (1967) with today’s eyes. Sidney Poitier’s character was intentionally a “superblack“:
While that film is dated, the presumption that the first POC to occupy the White House will have to be one that offends the least number of people and reduces the level of irrational fears.Kwanzaa Socialism: New band name? Yes, I do believe so. Thanks, wingnuts!
Kwanzaa Socialism
Oh, I get it! Obama is black! And a Democrat! Clever!
Thank you!
I love lurking around here, but damn it if race isn’t the party-killer topic. And it only feeds the Rush crowd more that even THIS very safe space for liberal thought is relatively quiet on this issue. What drew me into the left wing for real was seeing how one of my best friends (who is black) working alongside me at a Fortune-10 company had essentially no raises for three years while I jumped about 40% above my starting salary in the same time, and for work that was similar in difficulty and importance. No one was “racist”, yet this very racist outcome happened anyway. How was that? And of course I did make some gaffes at first as I tried to get my head around it, but it quickly became clear that race and class interleaved in a more complex way than I had thought previously (sometimes class trumps race, but often not), and then the ball rolled toward feminist thought (if a black man can see the world so differently, why can’t I trust that a white woman experiences it differently in a way I can’t directly relate to also?), etc… Anyway, back on topic…
I would vote for almost any of the Democratic candidates except HRC (because she is Republican-lite(tm) and it looks to me like she would work very hard just like her husband did in the 90’s to continue the push to a police state with no social safety net). I would LOVE to try Kucinich’s ideas of course, but I don’t think Congress (even a Dem-controlled one) would implement them. I would take Edwards too, but I think he would be hamstrung in the same way. That leaves Obama and the delight of what his victory would really mean symbolically. I can say that in my next of the woods (Houston TX) I’ve head several comments to the effect that many people would just sit out entirely if it goes Obama vs. Huckabee. The only way Obama could lose my vote is if he picked Lieberman, HRC, or someone else similarly Republican for veep; to be blunt, that would be flat out asking for a wingnut to take him out.
I hope Democrats don’t fall into the “electable” trap again. That’s how we ended up with a stiff like Kerry.
OT: Can someone tell me how last night’s “Simpsons” turned out? My VCR cut out just before the ending. Did Ralph win?
I love lurking around here, but damn it if race isn’t the party-killer topic. And it only feeds the Rush crowd more that even THIS very safe space for liberal thought is relatively quiet on this issue.
Absolutely. This post is up at my pad and at the Great Orange Satan (DKos) simply because I wanted to reach as many people as possible about this subject. I don’t have my hopes too high that we’ll see 100+ comments on this.
That image, by the way—I know it’s satire, but it’s so well done that I fear that it could be used in earnest by white supremacists.
That image, by the way—I know it’s satire, but it’s so well done that I fear that it could be used in earnest by white supremacists.
I’m sure if one wants to surf the white supremacist sites, there are probably much worse already available.
http://www.visitingdc.com/images/washington-monument-address.jpg
Some people are afraid Obama will have it painted black.
Racism is one of those things that needs more talking about, but feels much like banging your head against a wall. White people who basically just go about their lives in a state of obliviousness about racism, but who themselves did not play a part in creating racist societal mechanisms and who do not themselves consciously discriminate, are in general not going to take too kindly to being called a racist. Even when you explain that racism is a cultural condition that we are all tainted by (and racism takes place between every skin color there is all over the world), you’re still going to get an angry “what the hell did I ever do” sort of response.
It also makes me sad that, comparative to HIllary having to be “UBER MANLY ANGRY” to seem appropriately tough as a woman, Obama I think has to come across with a very gentle and non-confrontational approach to avoid the frame of the “ANGRY BLACK MAN”.
It’s frustrating and sad to watch these politicians all act like caricatures of real people to avoid stepping on the wrong toes.
White people who basically just go about their lives in a state of obliviousness about racism, but who themselves did not play a part in creating racist societal mechanisms and who do not themselves consciously discriminate, are in general not going to take too kindly to being called a racist.
Look at Michael Richards, Don Imus and Dog the Bounty Hunter. All were caught engaging in the most egregious public racist diatribes and all of them were quick to point out that they “aren’t racist.”
Houston, we have a problem. As a culture, we have closeted this topic and put a padlock on.
I’m sure if one wants to surf the white supremacist sites, there are probably much worse already available.
Fair enough. And probably not as well-done. The quality sort of inclines one to think it’s satire.
What is “Kwanzaa Socialism”?
I don’t know, but it sounds like fun. Feasting and libations for everyone?
Pam, thank you for a fascinating and very informative post. You’ve linked a lot of things up for me.
I’ve always thought the attacks on Obama for his very vague links to people who are Islamic were pure racism, because I’m used to anti-Islamic feeling in Europe being used as a figleaf to disguise exactly that. Because it’s legitimate to criticise a religion but illegal to criticise a race, our European freeper equivalents work themselves into a froth about how evil Islam is on a regular basis. They use all the rhetoric of racism: how “they” should all be sent back where they came from, how “they” should adapt to Western cultural norms, etc.
It’s completely terrifying that people are already talking about an Obama win resulting in violence from either side. A reminder of how very far this civilisation still has to go.
I’m sending this to everyone I know. I agree that we should be talking early and often about all of this, and keep it up. I’ve seen some of the right-wing under-the-radar murmurings by even moderate conservatives linking Obama to Islam and I fear that this casual connection could become entrenched by the time any campaign goes national.
We’re going to see a lot of ugly stuff creeping out of the corners, especially if Obama takes the nomination. It’s our duty as liberals, whether we ultimately support the candidate or not, to be at the ready to squish any and all creepy-crawlies that emerge, and that means talking about a lot of uncomfortable topics. Maybe one of the first conversations to have is why a noticable silence sets in on a mainstream (read: majority white) blog community when it’s time to discuss racism, why commenters can go on for hundreds of posts about relatively minor issues and have so little to say about this one. Is it just a distant topic for a lot of people, or is it fear? Confusion? What is it? I know I don’t comment on a lot of topics because I feel I don’t know enough to really contribute and that the other commenters, sharp as they are in these parts, have it covered. But I don’t think Pam gets the same level of thoughtful discussion in her posts on race that she so strongly deserves.
I’ve wavered on throwing full support to Obama for a lot of the reasons that other people have mentioned here - his moderate stance, his lack of specifics, the religious rhetoric. I’ve decided, though, that realistically he is walking a very, very tricky tightrope in the face of very strongly entrenched racism in running his campaign. Watching the Iowa caucuses convinced me that he’s performed that balance brilliantly. I don’t think he’s specifically betrayed any progressive ideals in the process the way I feel Hilary has in the past. Beyond the specific issues involved, while those are incredibly important, will he be able to repair the damage done in the last 8 years to our international relations, our rights, and our national image? I’ve come to believe that he could. Obama doesn’t tick off all the issues on my list but he’s won my support anyway.
Anyway, this is a brilliant post and I share the fear of violence towards the Obama camp. I hope to god they have great security.
And thanks to the Defense Authorization Act in 2006, Bush could declare martial law, take over the National Guard in the appropriate states, and use them to quell whatever violence there was using whatever force they deemed necessary. (h/t Naomi Klein)
I worry about Obama’s health as well, assuming he’s the nominee. I’m certainly not the only one who sees parallels with Robert Kennedy.
So my question is: is it even possible to understand and talk about race (really white privilege) without oh-so-quickly running into male privilege followed by class followed by anti-consumerism and leading into socialism?
Because maybe that’s why racism gets so little traction: once the cat is out of the bag that one group of people can benefit from the system without trying to, and the only real solution is a systemic public policy approach–because no amount of private action will turn the tide, which is BTW the most direct critique of libertarianism to me (that is that the laissez-faire economics of the South did nothing to promote social justice)–then it a short leap to not only identify other groups of people who are advantaged unfairly (which leads to the diagnosis of male privilege and class), but also to see that systemic responses that work often do so despite our platitudes about how things “should be” at the individual level which quickly leads to the desire for a very strong social safety net.
I am reminded of James Baldwin’s passage in _The Fire Next Time_ in which he talks about the protected “inside world” of the white people and the unprotected “outside world” of everyone else, and how a black person can see and understand a white person because their worldview completely encompasses the white world, but the white person has to completely tear apart their own identity in order to see the world outside themselves, and in this way the white person cannot ever really see eye-to-eye with the black person. In my experience (as a white person) that rings very true. Once I saw the crack in the wall and the world beyond, it didn’t take long for me to reach “We all do better when we ALL do better.”
So maybe race is just one tiny piece of the biggest third rail in American politics. And maybe an Obama victory would pry open a lot more doors than we think.
Maybe one of the first conversations to have is why a noticable silence sets in on a mainstream (read: majority white) blog community when it’s time to discuss racism, why commenters can go on for hundreds of posts about relatively minor issues and have so little to say about this one. Is it just a distant topic for a lot of people, or is it fear? Confusion? What is it?
Thank you for saying this, and posing those questions. The fact is that we cannot effect change without being able to discuss topics that make us feel uncomfortable. Ask yourself the question — why is it easier for people to talk about reproductive freedom if you’re male or to weigh in on LGBT rights if you’re straight? There’s something about race that makes it that much more difficult.
But the fact of the matter is a black man is positioned to be the nominee of his party for the POTUS. How on earth can the MSM, the political savants, the progressive whiz kids of the blogosphere, and the consultant class go through this election cycle without addressing this issue and how it affects those who feel control over their country slipping away to the Black and Brown Menace? The GOP is running its entire campaign based on race-baiting.
“I wonder: in Jonah Goldberg’s “imagination,” which (ahem) “certain segments” of the American population exactly will “become completely unhinged” if Obama loses and thereby spawn “social unraveling”?”
In Goldberg’s “world”, Blacks and any other minority who dares vote Democratic, are by definition “unhinged” already.
Statements like his are meant to invoke racist fears without directly using racist language. They are trying to get this kind of reaction: “Who understands those people? Those cops who beat Rodney King were just doing society a favor. Why should they be jailed for it? And why did those negroes get so angry anyway?”, and use it as cover for people to vote against Obama.
“And who are the people who are going so deeply to fear this “social unraveling” that they vote for Obama just in order to keep those “certain segments” in line and well-behaved?”
No one will vote for Obama to avoid riots. The reminder of the history of riots is the entire point. They are trying to connect Obama to that history without acknowledging the circumstances of those riots.
This is the true evil of racism. It so rarely comes out in full view for all the world to see. It usually lurks in the shadows, giving aficionados just enough cover to avoid the label without actually giving up the beliefs…
I said this on a different thread, but it seems relevant here; I apologize in advance for parroting myself.
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I keep wondering why people don’t see that Obama, however progressive his politics (and they are progressive - just look at his voting record in the Senate) CAN’T perform aggression - the second he does that he get labeled an “angry black man” and any hope he could win is gone. The fact that he’s excellent at being calm, reasonable, and appearing conciliatory, even as he does not back down from progressive politics, is a GOOD THING. Jeez. Just because we’re all angry (and I am) doesn’t mean that the successful candidate has to be.
I’m not a huge fan of Clinton, but I think no one can disagree that a majority of the shit she’s taken from the press over the last 15 years has been in part because she has not been afraid to show anger and aggression. Obama’s learned from her that the only way you can express anger in politics is if you’re a white man. Otherwise, you’re attacked in deeply racist/sexist ways.”
This is one of the more subtle manifestations of race in the race, if you will. It’s not that people angry at Obama for not being more aggressive are being racist in the most obvious way, but I think that the inability to see these things is symptomatic of white progressives’ imperfect grasp of the problems of being a minority candidate.
OK, I’ll bite and be the first person to talk about why I, as a white woman, often don’t have a lot to say to posts about race.
It’s because of the bad taste that some guys’ quickness to talk about feminism leaves in my mouth. We all remember that one really well meaning dude in the women’s studies class, who basically monopolized the discussion and always had the full attention of the professor. The guy who joined our NOW chapter and wanted to run the thing inside of a week. The guy who came to the feminist stitch n bitch, squashed all the really interesting discussion, and spent the whole time hitting on the femmier lesbians present.
I don’t want to be that person. Just as I think a man’s place within feminism is to listen more than he talks and follow more than he leads, I think a white person’s place within anti-racism is basically the same. I don’t want every thread dealing with race to descend into White Girl Apology Hour And Cry Fest”. I read your threads, Pam, with an eye towards listening and learning, not towards arguing with you or attempting to show a mastery of the issue up for discussion. So I tend not to comment (of course it doesn’t help that I have to lurk at Pandagon in general when I’m in the office).
Not that it isn’t “my place” to discuss racial issues, but that I don’t feel that I personally have much to add, and I don’t want to dominate unfairly.
I keep wondering why people don’t see that Obama, however progressive his politics (and they are progressive - just look at his voting record in the Senate) CAN’T perform aggression - the second he does that he get labeled an “angry black man” and any hope he could win is gone.
Spot-on. The Sidney Poitier effect. The first black president can lose his temper, and, heaven help him, has to be worried about being photographed alone next to a hot white woman in public (lest that circulate to project a subtle message). It’s ridiculous what it takes to be palatable to the American people if you’re a POC at this level, or any level for that matter.
Having been the first black woman hired in a particular position in more than one job, I’ve always been conscious that I was not being judged only on my own performance, but that, like it or not, as representative of my race.
“Look at Michael Richards, Don Imus and Dog the Bounty Hunter. All were caught engaging in the most egregious public racist diatribes and all of them were quick to point out that they “aren’t racist.””
I agree with for the most part, but don’t quite get somehting. Is a white person who genuinely goes out of their way not to be offensive as ridiculous for not thinking of themselves as racist as people who clearly commit racist acts are (like the examples given above)? How can we convince them that they are part of the problem and need to work towards a solution if they clearly don’t see themselves that way?
There definitely is a significant minority in this country that would never ever ever vote for a black person for a major office, no matter what. And you will see the ugliest of the ugly trotted out if Obama is the nominee, especially on the covert Muslim/Al Qaeda agent front. And plenty of people will buy it.
But I think there are some other factors in play countering some of that. I think there are a lot of whites who don’t like to think of themselves as racist but deep down feel threatened by black people who actually would like to vote for Obama. They would tell themselves - see, I’m not racist, I voted for Obama. And my mother-in-law likes him. That means a lot to me. (I take her as my political barometer because I’m too far to the left and too much of a political junkie to understand the average American voter. She has voted for Democrats but more often votes Republican, is an evangelical Christian, is socially conservative but not a zealot (ie is uncomfortable with gay marriage but thought it was ridiculous for Republicans to make it a key issue with all the other problems facing us), gets more economically liberal the older she gets, is very concerned about health care, and is upset about conduct of the war but going into it was someone who thought we had to do “something.”) She has voted with the winner far more often than I have, and he’s her top Democrat. I know that probably confirms the suspicions of those here who think he is too moderate, but it gives me hope about his electability.
We are in the process of historic transitions. But have we crossed over to the other side? We’ll find out.
One last note: It’s a good thing he’s married to a black woman.
“How on earth can the MSM, the political savants, the progressive whiz kids of the blogosphere, and the consultant class go through this election cycle without addressing this issue and how it affects those who feel control over their country slipping away to the Black and Brown Menace?”
Because it’s too radioactive. Americans want to think of themselves as being “good people”, and good people are not racists. Beside, racism ended in the ’60’s, right?
Just as there is a whole set of Americans who come unglued if you suggest that the Iraq War was a mistake (”Why are you so soft on terrorism? What kind of troop-hating hippie are you?!?!?”), admitting that America was born in racism, has lived with it as a constant feature for the last 230-years, and shows every likelihood of maintaining a racist undercurrent for the foreseeable future is a sure-fire ticket to “America: Love it or Leave it!” attitudes.
The “MSM, the political savants” and “MSM, the political savants” are only interested in getting a paycheck. They are followers of trends, not leaders. The spark for change will have to come from somewhere else.
The real problem is with “the progressive whiz kids of the blogosphere”. I think a lot of bloggers see Kos as the ideal, so being less confrontational in order to gain a larger audience, more advertising, etc., is probably in the thinking somewhere (even if it’s subconscious).
If you speak out about these things (and thanks Pam for doing so), history may think positively of you, but there’s no profit in it in the meantime…
Is a white person who genuinely goes out of their way not to be offensive as ridiculous for not thinking of themselves as racist as people who clearly commit racist acts are (like the examples given above)? How can we convince them that they are part of the problem and need to work towards a solution if they clearly don’t see themselves that way?
I think the bottom line is that you have to start with the assumption that everyone is racist at some level. We are all wrestling with this. Some of us are more aware than others, some of us are more experienced at wrestling, or know that we are wrestling in the first place. But these lines we draw between Klan Member, Racist Asshole, and Liberal Person don’t really exist.
Obviously there’s a difference in the behavior or the consciousness of some people. Though I think most of us are lying to ourselves if we say we’ve never had a racist thought, never said or done something that we realized was racist in hindsight, etc. Regardless of how well-meaning we are. Of course there’s a difference between people who try and people who don’t, or people who try for empty social reasons vs. people who try because we actually care.
The real question is probably “how do we convince ANYONE that they’re racist if they don’t see themselves that way?” That’s a question I don’t really know the answer to, and it’s something I deal with constantly, especially with my southern relatives who think they are The Heroes Of Civil Rights simply because they were born after the Whites Only signs were taken down. If someone can answer this one, I would be very grateful.
I agree with this. I worry about being the Nice White Lady as people call it, when there are many brilliant WOC out there parsing these issues. But I also wonder if this doesn’t end up leaving the majority of the work to someone else, in net effect, to keep the conversation going, when we should be a part of that conversation. Like Pam said, people seem to find this balance with LGBT issues much more easily than this one: why? I don’t know, but it’s troubling.
“How can we convince them that they are part of the problem and need to work towards a solution if they clearly don’t see themselves that way?”
Continue to make casual racism unacceptable. Example, my 70-year old father made some comment featuring the word “wetback” in front of my 16-year old daughter. She jumped down his throat about it.
When I found out about it later, I told her she did the right thing and I was proud she confronted him, and later told my dad the same. It needed to be pointed out to him sharply and immediately. I have done similar many times myself over the years. I can’t let him slide just because he grew up in a different time when such things were more common and accepted.
Now, as to whether it sank in or not, time will tell. But at least a bar has been set…
I think part of the problem in discussing race in America is that racism pre-dates the American experience. Yet we usually limit the context of the discussion to *just* that.
Western Civilization was built around a God who got turned from brown to white and blue-eyed. And I don’t think you can get to the heart of the matter without getting to the heart of the problem: the big guy upstairs is 1) a guy who is 2) white.
The reason Obama is doing so well is not only in spite of his race, its because of it. If he was just a young white freshman Senator from Illinois he wouldn’t be running for president, or getting this kind of attention.
Note that there is absolutely nothing wrong with that fact.
racism pre-dates the American experience.
2 things:
1. Yes, but so do so many other issues that we still feel free to deal with. We can talk about misogyny, and religious fundamentalism, and class issues, for instance. GLBT issues arose for the first time when the USA already existed, but you’d have to be an idiot to think that Americans invented homophobia.
2. I’m not actually sure this is 100% true. The kind of racism that exists most predominantly in the US was invented here, and is somewhat unique to our culture (and in cases where it’s not, I wonder how much America was an influence). To chose an obvious point, slavery had little to do with race before its migration to the American colonies, and in fact prior to the early 18th century, African slaves in the English-colonized Americas were treated the same as European indentured servants. It wasn’t until a separate “American” identity and culture emerged that this began to change.
Amanda @ #12:
With Vladimir Umoja on Guitar and Democratic Self-Organization, Emma Ujamaa on Vocals, Bass and Nationalized Industries, and Bayard Ujima on Drums and Mass Mobilization.
First album, “There is Nothing Funny About the Struggle”.
Sam Hellerman is a genius.
Oh, and opoponax? Excellent comments, all the way. As to your last question: another way too put it is, how do you convince a fish that it’s wet?
Is a white person who genuinely goes out of their way not to be offensive as ridiculous for not thinking of themselves as racist as people who clearly commit racist acts are (like the examples given above)? How can we convince them that they are part of the problem and need to work towards a solution if they clearly don’t see themselves that way?
One approach is to use the word “racist” to talk about actions, statements, ideas, and worldviews, rather than people. Discussions about who is racist and who isn’t tend to be terribly unproductive, IMHO. If you can accept that most people, to a greater or lesser degree, have racist assumptions or thoughts or blind spots, it can become easier to talk about the manifestations of those things without feeling like in order to be an acceptable human being you can’t EVER be accused of racism. Maybe then people could point out the racism in someone’s statement, without that person leaving in a huff or forever silencing themselves on that topic. I am a white person who works to be anti-racist in my thinking and actions, but I know that I have some degree of racism - it’s the water we swim in; it’s impossible not to get some of it up your nose.
I do think it is depressing to hear the opinions of blacks that they won’t waste their vote on Obama because he won’t win, and if he does, some knuckledragger will take him out.
I have to say, I like him better than I did before I saw the debates - he seems like a class act, calm, dare I say, statesmanlike. Too bad he still is a little vague on the issues.
Heres one positive thing you can take away from the Herald Ford race. The number of people who said they would vote for him in the polls was alsmot identical to the percentage of the vote he received. So, white people are being honest about black candidates now instead of saying they will vote for him and then doing something else in the voting booth.
Another thing I worry about is how strongly the Clinton campaign will “go there.” The Clinton campaign has expressed “concern” over Obama’s support of abolishing mandatory minimums, citing it as evidence that he’s short on substance, lacks experience, or is too liberal. But how is this not a racially coded attack for being too soft on crime? I haven’t seen a whole lot of coverage of this in particular, and certainly not on the racial aspect of it (you just can’t expect that kind of thing from the tpm crowd). Clinton’s campaign keeps saying that a candidate in the general has to be ready to stand up to the Republican attack machine, but I fear that Obama will receive that kind of education from her and other moderate dems first.
Also, of course one of the first spins I heard of Iowa was from George Will, who pronounced Obama’s win as proof of the death of racism. I mean, I guess we knew that this is the price, but we have to find ways to navigate that.
Unbelivably long comment alert
I don’t want every thread dealing with race to descend into White Girl Apology Hour And Cry Fest”.
Op, you cracked me up.
Pam, this is the issue: white people who want to talk about racism, because we recognize the scope and scale of the evil it is, have had the experience of turning the conversation into Apology Hour and Cry Fest.
I did this myself for a long time, despite having grown up in a consciously integrated community and schools.
The great thing about the internet is, Nobody knows your race. That cuts down on stereotyping; because I’m full of opinions about race and racial thinking, I’m often assumed to be black. Which if you could see me, would make you ROTFL.
OTOH, the conversations about race in this country that most of us have had in person have featured the ‘what do you know, you’re white’ dynamic that stifles an exchange of uninformed, baseless views. Is that a bad thing? Not entirely. Some of the things white people believe about race are embarrassing to me as a white person who shares their privilege. And then there are the Dog the Bounty Hunter white folks who make me embarrassed to share a species with them.
Long personal story about how I got that racism isn’t fixed: I got a job selling software and was hired alongside the company’s first black woman in that role. Within a year, neither of us worked there anymore.
The final straw was the day our sales team of 43 people was checking in to the convention hotel and her reserved room wasn’t ready. In 90 minutes, everyone else had arrived and checked in, and her room still wasn’t ready. After a couple of polite requests for resolution, we put her stuff in my room and called home office. Somehow the travel-arrangements folks in HR had ‘lost’ her request.
I called our team, of 3 white women and 4 white men, to the lobby. We took all the chairs, put our feet up on the tables and waited. Within 2 minutes the manager came over and I explained to him that there seemed to be some issue in their reservation system so we were going to be sitting in the lobby until everyone had a room. Instant results. I’m sure the day white nerds from [Giant Software Corp] sat in for integration at [Mega Hotel Chain] is now included in their training manual.
She used the job as a springboard to a less segregated competitor, and I used it as the last evidence I needed that if I wanted to work in an environment that is not racist, I needed to start my own company. In the long run, I have a lot to thank those bigots for.
They showed me that educated, striving white people can create structural discrimination that never needs to say ‘negro’ while it is chewing one up. Having been raised in Kumbaya-ville, and educated in Berkeley, I had no idea. This happened in 1999, folks.
Of all the white people in the room, I’ve usually had the most black friends and peers, the closest contact with black people, and the most visits to a black person’s home/family. I’m now a member of a multi-racial family, and certainly have had more exposure to how white and black and other Americans think about race in the 8 years I’ve been raising my kid.
All that said, I still don’t always want to comment on race-relations issues. Because of what I bolded above: It’s just shameful to be associated with some of the ignorance that comes out in these conversations.
I look forward to the effects of comparing such racist vile–both of the Goldberg variety and the Freeper variety–against Obama’s wonderful oratory. Some people will always go with the slime, but Obama has the chance to really make a lot of white people sit up and listen. I get verklempt anticipating his inauguration address …
On a lighter note, all this reminds me of one of Chris Rock’s old routines. He says he can easily imagine a black President in his life time. What he can’t imagine is a black VP, because some black guy would take out the President and then get treated like a prince in prison.
“Also, of course one of the first spins I heard of Iowa was from George Will, who pronounced Obama’s win as proof of the death of racism.”
How can Obama’s showing in Iowa represent the “death of racism” when the wingnuts thought it was dead already? Seems a little inconsistent.
Of course, we all know they don’t REALLY believe racism is dead, especially when they keep injecting new revivifying fluid into the rotting zombie corpse…
Great story. There are lots of those out there, but all it took was Obama to win Iowa for Malkin, George Will and the like to declare it dead. So absurd.
And again, you don’t see much pickup on this — I was glad to see Glenn Greenwald throw it down.
And on the Obama aspect rather than the ‘race-based threads die cold and lonely’ aspect:
I’m scared. Obama can’t win unless he stays ‘clean and articulate’, Sidney Poitier coming to dinner perfect. And that, my friends, means that we are one misstep away from a President Huck/McMcain/Romney. Maybe he can stay perfect, but I’m scared.
And of course I’m furious that I live in a country in which it is still the burden of POC and women to express submission to the dominant paradigm in our every fucking expression or risk being excluded from the dialogue about our nation’s future…but that’s a whole ‘nother story.
“This of course, is absurd, but the fear is well-founded because of the elements in the black and other minority communities that loose their cookies when anyone white makes a statement on race that remotely reflects a lack of knowledge about the issue. ”
I have learned the hard way the truth of the above. I have learned that I can (on the internet anyway) participate in any discussion about race, as long as I DO NOT identify as white. Once I do that, the conversation is *over* - all I get after that is snarky comments about “white woman guilt”, etc. How am I supposed to learn anything, if (for all practical purposes) the only response on my part that is allowed is “Mea Culpa!”?
While I will never know the pain of discrimination and bigotry as a woman of color knows it, I am still a woman and I *have* experienced discrimination based solely on my gender. But because I am white, my experience of gender discrimination is somehow less valid, even though I am speaking SOLELY about gender discrimination. This is like asking which is worse - being stabbed through the heart or being shot through the heart. Does it matter? You’re just as dead.
I’ll never be called a “nappy-headed ho”. But I have been called a whore for *daring* to say “no”. No woman of color has ever had that experience without race being part of it? Ever? A black woman and I, a white woman, can’t connect through this particular experience?
Yeah, I’m bitter about this. I want to be a better person, but the people who could teach me aren’t interested in having me around.
we are one misstep away from a President Huck/McMcain/Romney.
I, for one, think this is a relatively ‘colorblind’ worry to have.
The Dean Scream, anyone?
This is the way American presidential campaigns have worked for my entire political consciousness (way back to Dukakis back in ‘88). One false step (or even something seen as a “false step” by the MSM) from the Dem, and suddenly we’re in yet another Republican administration.
Hillary or Edwards could fuck this up in exactly the same way, unfortunately.
(Everyone here knows that I’m white and middle-class, right? Right.)
Here’s the thing that I think a lot of POC members of the commentariat don’t realize, and the reason why the Repugs are freaking out early and are REALLY going to flip their shit if Obama gets the nomination: white people like Obama. As other people have mentioned on the thread, I know semi-liberal/conservative-leaning white people who love Obama and are looking forward to voting for him. If another Democrat wins the nomination, they probably won’t vote at all. Those Reagan Democrats? Those are the ones who love Obama.
This is what has Jonah and Michelle and their little buddies freaking out. And, yes, unfortunately it puts the man in greater danger, because he is so appealing to the mainstream. If he were a side candidate like Sharpton, they wouldn’t have to bother to take him down.
Judging by the white people I know, Obama has a real chance to win this thing.
The kind of racism that exists most predominantly in the US was invented here
I’m not sure what you’re getting at. The “kind” that allows us to treat other human beings as animals but stops short of throwing people into ovens?
My larger point is that many different expressions of racism come from the same place. And I think it might be a good idea now and again to look at root causes and not just how racism manifests itself in a particular culture. Tho, that’s important, too.
Boadicea, it isn’t about you. I suggest you do what I would advise a man who feels neglected on a feminist thread to do - ask yourself why the other commenters are saying those things, and why it makes you feel so wounded. Listen to what they are saying that isn’t about you - you still learn that way, you know.
What you said at the end made me think that perhaps, in an attempt to identify positively with POC who’ve experienced racism, you’ve pointed out that you know what oppression feels like too. One of the things to learn is that comparing experiences of discrimination/oppression is often very frustrating to people. It can make them feel like they’re not being heard, like you’re trying to match them in a victim-competition, which isn’t what it’s about. (Not that you were trying to do this, but that is often how it feels to people.)
The crux of the problem is right here: Yeah, I’m bitter about this. I want to be a better person, but the people who could teach me aren’t interested in having me around.
It is no one’s job to teach you. And yet perhaps you would find that by responding the way they did, they ARE teaching you something, if only you can get past your hurt feelings to learn it.
The “kind” that allows us to treat other human beings as animals but stops short of throwing people into ovens?
I specifically meant racism that isn’t tinged much with colonialism, and can be easily analyzed separately from class or caste.
But thanks for being all inflammatory for no reason.
And I think that answers your question, Pam. We’re not even working from the same definitions.
Rox, that’s because discussion is shut down before we can discuss definitions. And the GOP sleeps like a baby at night while we handwring over what is “racist.”
I actually don’t think they’re sleeping all that well these days. And progressive attitudes young people have about lesbians and gays, POC, women’s role in society, etc. is a big reason why.
It has been my experience that only POC are invited to the race discussion. On threads on blogs, I mean! (In REAL life, it isn’t as fraught!). No one likes to feel like the choadly guy who shows up in the Feminist thread, and no one likes to be made out to be the Enemy by folks one is trying to befriend or at least have a discussion with. It’s just better to stay quiet, because as long as you NEVER ADDRESS RACE, you can’t be called a racist.
Which I agree totally sucks!
But it is the policy I have seen work out well for white liberals all over the internet. And I have not seen the opposite work. That is, I have never seen a white liberal, make or female, open up a discussion of race on a thread, and not get called racist by somebody, essentially, for bringing the subject up while being white. At the very least there will be at least one “STFU whitey” comment about what an idiot the white blogger is, and really, that’s enough. If you are genuinely trying to connect and discuss, the very intimation that nothing you have to say has any value because you are a privileged white person IS ENOUGH for a normal Liberal to think, “Oh! There are probably right. I should just STFU”.
“Rox, that’s because discussion is shut down before we can discuss definitions.”
…and this guy argues in the other thread about whether Obama is REALLY Black because he had a white momma.
The best definition I ever saw on that subject was “If they treat you like you’re Black, you’re Black…”
Plus, how offensive is it to keep pointing out Obama’s actual ethnic makeup? Does it make him more acceptable to have a white mother? (so he got some “good” genes or some bullshit?) Or does it make him less acceptable (he’s not “Black enough”)?
Also, I think one of the reasons he’s being tarred with the muslim thing (Barack HUSSEIN Obama, MADRASSA!!!) is because it functions as a slightly less racist attack for those who want to believe they aren’t racists but can’t bear the thought of a Black man in the White House…
But it is the policy I have seen work out well for white liberals all over the internet. And I have not seen the opposite work. That is, I have never seen a white liberal, make or female, open up a discussion of race on a thread, and not get called racist by somebody, essentially, for bringing the subject up while being white.
While I totally agree that this is not usually a productive response (see my comment at #43), shouldn’t we whites stop being such babies about it? Just because someone on the internet called you a racist (and I’ve had it directed my way, though not often), it isn’t a good justification for deciding to take your ball and go home. Yes, it certainly stings. I know. But examine why they’re saying that, and decide (as honestly with yourself as you can) if you think it has merit, and proceed accordingly.
The more I hear “but but when I talk they call me a racist! So I’m not gonna talk!” the more I feel like it’s white people putting the responsibility on everyone else for dealing with racism, both internal and systematic.
At the very least there will be at least one “STFU whitey” comment about what an idiot the white blogger is, and really, that’s enough.
And that’s why I fault blacks (minorities) for enabling this silence to continue as well. We’ve boxed ourselves in, and in the meantime, those without a care in the world about tossing out race-baiting ads and tactics can continue to thrive.
…and this guy argues in the other thread about whether Obama is REALLY Black because he had a white momma.
The best definition I ever saw on that subject was “If they treat you like you’re Black, you’re Black…”
Plus, how offensive is it to keep pointing out Obama’s actual ethnic makeup? Does it make him more acceptable to have a white mother? (so he got some “good” genes or some bullshit?) Or does it make him less acceptable (he’s not “Black enough”)?
And that’s fraught with even more dragons.
Well, you have to understand, to a lot of people, the definition of “racist” is not “thinking one group of people are better (or worse, which makes the other better by comparison) than another”. The definition of “racist” is “someone who wants to see a certain group of people suffer and/or die”.
So you can say “black folks are lazy and don’t value education, because if they were hard workers who valued education, black folks wouldn’t face a greater risk of poverty than white folks.” That’s a statement of equality, see, because it’s saying that if blacks worked hard, they *would* succeed, rather than suggesting that they fail despite working hard, which would say that they’re inferior to white folks.
It’s like torture… as long as you can point to anything done by anyone that’s worse than what the US is doing, you can say that “see, that other thing, *that* is torture, but what we do - hitting people with an open hand, making them stand for many hours - suspend them by the arms and “long time standing” is called “crucifixion” - sleep deprivation, hypothermia, sensory deprivation, etc., that isn’t *torture*.
“And that’s fraught with even more dragons.”
Just more pus to squeeze out, since we’re already on the subject…
As long as we stay out of colorism and the politics of hair, we’ll be okay…
:)
I think part of the reason it’s easier for men to talk up feminism, and straights to talk up gay rights than white people to talk about race is that the former two have easily defined issues you can latch onto. A man can support reproductive rights fairly easy, and a straight person can agitate against discrimination and for gay marriage. In the days of Jim Crow, white liberals didn’t have nearly the problem talking about race; you had a set of easily defined problems to agitate against.
Nowadays, racism is buried in a complex series of institutional assumptions that are hard to escape. Crime, drugs, poverty—all these things are not inherently racial issues, and thus racism has been rewritten onto them in order to persist racist systems. That makes it much more difficult. When the problem is straightforward, like racists using pseudo-science to promote racist beliefs about black people’s intelligence, you see plenty of white people eager to step up and talk about racism.
With Obama, you also see the myth of colorblindness in effect. Like on my thread reconsidering my endorsement, there were a number of comments about how I should disregard race in my estimations of the candidates and vote on the issues. Well, racism IS an issue, one of the most important issues, and therefore Obama’s race (and specifically whether or not electing him as President will have a net effect on racism) is a major fucking issue. If we weren’t a racist country, then his race wouldn’t be an issue. Social scientists would extend that and say that without racism, there is no such thing as race, that the former construct begets the latter. I think a lot of white people try to get around the issue by thinking, “Okay, if I don’t see race, then I’m fighting racism simply by resisting the construct.” But that in turn creates this situation where you’re refusing to see someone’s life, and that’s reinforcing racism. Very complex, indeed.
To echo KMT, in real life, some of this isn’t as fraught weirdly. Non-blogger/pundit people I know of any race openly and cheerfully talk about Obama’s race as an asset to his campaign, and about how happy they will be to participate in the election of the first black President.
It’s like torture… as long as you can point to anything done by anyone that’s worse than what the US is doing
That’s right, because waterboarding is like doing the freestyle, the backstroke…depending on your POV.
Besides, “refusing to see race” assumes “white” is the the baseline, right?
Basically, but I’m in a generous mood, so I’d argue that it’s well-intended. It’s like saying that a force of will can somehow wipe out someone’s oppression, and it’s not that simple.
Mike, spot-on, as usual. This Hussein stuff is extra cute because when they’re taxed with it, the wingnuts can throw up their hands and say, “But that’s his ACTUAL MIDDLE NAME! I’m just stating FACTS!”Hopefully, this will make them look as whiny and petty as George Bush pere did when he insisted on calling Pete duPont “Pierre.”
I’m sure Mr. Obama has already talked things over with his wife and they have discussed the possibility of his being assassinated. Which means his continued running for president is even more admirable. I see a man, quietly confident, who will go ahead doing what he feels is right, and I admire him even more for his courage. I can’t be the only white person who feels this way. (I voted for him last election, which doesn’t say much because the opposition was Mr. Nutzoid Alan Keyes.)
The silliest part about the middle name is that it’s like saying “oh, your middle name is Jackson?” Aha, I knew it! You’re a pedophile!
I’m wondering how many conservative pundits took Bill Clinton’s middle name to mean that he was simply a harmless libertarian who would guide the US with the benevolent spirit of the framers’ original intent?
It is no one’s job to teach you. And yet perhaps you would find that by responding the way they did, they ARE teaching you something, if only you can get past your hurt feelings to learn it..
While it is certainly true that it is no one’s job to teach in this case, I think it is also true that those who choose not to teach can’t then complain that white people don’t “get it.” And vise versa: anyone who wants white people to get it has to be willing to teach at least some of the time. (And you can swap out POC and whites for women and men, homosexuals and heterosexuals, etc.)
Once Person A hits the point of saying “Person B can’t possibly understand me”, the conversation is effectively over. If the important information hasn’t been conveyed by that point, then it never will be. That response in and of itself will probably “teach” Person B one of two things: “I am so clueless that I am unteachable” or “Person A doesn’t want me to understand, so I should avoid the topic (and possibly Person A) from now on.”
(Obviously, without knowing what led up to that point, it’s impossible to judge either person’s sincerity or skill in communicating. Person B may well have been blindly clueless or baiting or whatever; Person A may well have been disdainful or dramatic or whatever; it may have been some combination of the two.)
But because Person A has chosen to end the conversation in that case, it’s not helpful for Person A to then complain or wonder why Person B won’t engage in the conversation. We are free to cut people off and not talk to them, but we need to be aware that this is what we are doing.
(Of course, the same principle would apply from Person B’s side when she ends the conversation: she can’t complain about Person A refusing to engage. And since Person A is the wronged party in this example, she would certainly have more right to complain about Person B refusing to engage.)
Probably 8/10 people in this country have a funny middle name. If anything that should make those people feel sympathetic to him.
Spot-on. The Sidney Poitier effect. The first black president can lose his temper, and, heaven help him, has to be worried about being photographed alone next to a hot white woman in public (lest that circulate to project a subtle message). It’s ridiculous what it takes to be palatable to the American people if you’re a POC at this level, or any level for that matter.
[Enlightenment strikes!]
I was wondering why racial politics in the US looked so different. I’d completely overlooked the sexual angle (Maori/Pakeha relationships are pretty normal).
Amen….
(And characterizing the action, not the person, is also beneficial…But it’s that remaining open to dialogue that’s key).
I was wondering why racial politics in the US looked so different. I’d completely overlooked the sexual angle (Maori/Pakeha relationships are pretty normal).
Let me put it this way: Will Smith is the biggest box-office star in America. He’s pretty much the only person who can still guarantee a huge opening weekend for any movie that he’s in.
And yet when he was in a romantic comedy (Hitch), they cast Eva Mendes, a Latina, as his love interest. Because there was no way in hell that America was going to accept Will Smith with a white love interest in a movie. Ever.
Then there are people like me. I don’t favor any particular Democrat at this point. Whoever wins the damn thing has my vote. Because I’m afraid of Huckabee and what he would do, and because I’m tired of the Republican bullshit. Mitt is only less slightly scary than Huckabee, McCain I have no clue. But I am getting tired of the Repub rhetoric.
I don’t care Obama is moc, Hillary is a woman or Edwards is a white man. Whichever gets the win has my vote. For the record, I’m a 47 year old white woman who generally ignores the party lines of Democrat and Republican. A politician is a politician no matter his party. However, lately I’m leaning toward Dem.
This is what has Jonah and Michelle and their little buddies freaking out.
Mnemosyne - Well, yeah. But you know what? Just as Jonah, Michelle et al. took their membership in a party that put up black people for Secretaries of State as proof that they themselves aren’t racist, if Obama wins the election, they will take their citizenship in a country with a black president as further proof of the same–which of course would make it okay in their eyes to yammer about it in the most clueless manner possible, nonstop, for the next 4-8 years.
Meanwhile, the Obama Administration (has a nice ring to it, no?) may have to put on extra staff just to deal with flood of racism directed entirely to him and his family.
I better clarify something before what I said can be misconstrued. I consider Obama, Clinton, and Edwards to be good candidates worth me voting for. Otherwise I would abstain from the vote or consider McCain most likely as the less of the Repub evils if I found out he’s moderate or lite.
This crap about anybody rising over the Obama vote needs to be squelched completely.
And yet when he was in a romantic comedy (Hitch), they cast Eva Mendes, a Latina, as his love interest. Because there was no way in hell that America was going to accept Will Smith with a white love interest in a movie. Ever.
Funny how the 1972 version of I Am Legend (The Omega Man, starring The Hest) proudly featured a inter-racial post-coital scene. Yet Will Smith was only allowed to eat bacon and watch Shrek in the 2007 version.
Betsy:
“Boadicea, it isn’t about you. I suggest you do what I would advise a man who feels neglected on a feminist thread to do - ask yourself why the other commenters are saying those things, and why it makes you feel so wounded. Listen to what they are saying that isn’t about you - you still learn that way, you know. ”
And this is one of the nicer responses I’ve received. Do you think I just picked up my ball and went home after one negative response? I’ve had *dozens*, on all kinds of blogs - and ALL have occurred after I have identified as white.
Damn it, it IS about me. And it is ALSO about the other person in the conversation. As I stated, I want to be a better person, but I can’t do that until I find someone from the other side who is willing to f*cking TALK TO ME as though my color doesn’t automatically make me a member of Aryan Nation or the KKK.
While I will never experience racial discrimination as a POC does, don’t we have *some* shared experiences? Can’t a WOC and I acknowledge that we’re both human, we’re both female, we’ve both experienced misogyny that has nothing to do with race? Wouldn’t that at least give us something to agree about and empathize about before opening up that ugly subject called “racism”?
Or should this whitey just STFU?
I don’t really know where to begin on this Christopher Hitchens piece, but it may serve as some kind of object lesson for this post. If we’re not too deep down in comments, maybe someone smarter than me will have something good to say about it.
http://www.slate.com/id/2181460/
And by good I mean interesting, not praise.
The difference perhaps is, Boadicea, that you want to be a better person, while (at the risk of speaking for others, and out of turn at that) POC want to live in a world in which they aren’t oppressed. The stakes are a little different there.
The best education I’ve had has come from listening. It’s like the declaration on I Blame the Patriarchy: listen first, get a sense of what’s going on, and then feel free to comment. Be willing to learn the context of the discussion and be on point, rather than either lecturing or demanding immediate enlightenment as a “service” from either women or POC. Be willing to be challenged, to face your own socialization as racist, sexist, transphobic, ablist, etc. Just because POC talk about the specific oppressions that define their own experience, this does not mean that they don’t think you’re human. And for many women POC, their experience of misogyny has everything to do with their race. These things aren’t so easily separable, and the terms cannot be so easily assumed. This is why listening is so vital.
Once Person A hits the point of saying “Person B can’t possibly understand me”, the conversation is effectively over. If the important information hasn’t been conveyed by that point, then it never will be. That response in and of itself will probably “teach” Person B one of two things: “I am so clueless that I am unteachable” or “Person A doesn’t want me to understand, so I should avoid the topic (and possibly Person A) from now on.”
Hm. Just to be devil’s advocate about this for a second: while I agree to this as a matter of how things fucntion from the white person’s POV, I (as a white girl) would imagine, and have been told, that it’s hugely annoying from the POV of the POC in the conversation. As Pam mentioned above, it means you are always, in every conversation, a representative of your entire race, even when you’re rightfully sick to fucking death of gently educating bumbling but well-intentioned white persons.
I would like to agree with Amanda that this hangs in great part on the insidious nature of American racism, which doesn’t present many obvious, simple, legal changes that want making, but rather the proverbial thousand cuts of attitude, assumption, and interpersonal shittiness.
Mnemosyne - Well, yeah. But you know what? Just as Jonah, Michelle et al. took their membership in a party that put up black people for Secretaries of State as proof that they themselves aren’t racist, if Obama wins the election, they will take their citizenship in a country with a black president as further proof of the same–which of course would make it okay in their eyes to yammer about it in the most clueless manner possible, nonstop, for the next 4-8 years.
Oh, like any development at all could get them to STFU. We could have aliens come down and enslave us all, and Jonah and Michelle would still be proudly declaring that they voted for Kodos.
We have absolutely gone backwards in popular culture. Take a look sometime at the late 70s-early 80s version of “Battlestar Galactica,” where the second-in-command was black along with half of the pilots. G. and I were watching “Barney Miller” last night, with its multiracial cast (if I’m counting right, three white guys (including Fish), a black guy, a Puerto Rican guy, and a Korean guy playing Japanese).
It’s astounding to watch the racial diversity of TV from 15 or 20 years ago and then look at the depressing lily-white landscape we’re stuck with now. The late lamented “Homicide” is probably the last major network show I can think of that was genuinely diverse.
Sina: “The difference perhaps is, Boadicea, that you want to be a better person, while (at the risk of speaking for others, and out of turn at that) POC want to live in a world in which they aren’t oppressed. The stakes are a little different there.”
Like I don’t want to live in a world where NOBODY is oppressed because of their gender, their sexual orientation, their race, their politics, their income, etc.? Wouldn’t becoming a better person (so I make better decisions when voting, when patronizing businesses, etc.) help make that possible?
I have listened. And listened. And listened some more. As long as I do not identify as white, I can comment and participate in the dialogue. I am often listened to, and even agreed with (or disagreed with in a relatively friendly manner) - until that magic phrase “I am white.” Then all bets are off. I immediately become “the Enemy” who’s just trying to rationalize away her guilt for her inborn, automatic racism and play the “who’s a bigger victim?” game.
It’s just so frustrating!
Oh, like any development at all could get them to STFU.
Not to mention that avoiding voting for the black guy because of what conservative pundits will inevitably say is incredibly silly. DON’T vote for Obama because if you do and he wins, the extreme right will pat themselves on the back?
Let’s nominate David Duke! That’ll show ‘em!
I don’t know, it seems to me that a lot of racist outcomes could be improved from some rather direct legal changes:
1) Pass the ERA.
2) Universal health care.
3) Increased minimum wage.
4) Increased pay for civil servants including soldiers, teachers, and administrators.
5) Defund the War on (Some of the People Who Use) Drugs and release many of the prisoners.
6) Guaranteed access to abortion and contraception.
7) Guaranteed parenting rights for all mothers regardless of age (I haven’t made this point very well, but in essence counteract the tendency for poor/young/black mothers to be separated from their children via draconian adoption agencies or penal laws).
8) Better public transit, particularly in the South (where geographically feasible).
9) Guaranteed voting for ALL (regardless of criminal record), and a national holiday on Voting Day with guaranteed overtime (forcing employers to actually let their hourly employees vote).
Since racism directly results in greater poverty and imprisonment for many POC, alleviating poverty, releasing those imprisoned for victimless “crimes”, securing real suffrage for those with hourly jobs, supporting the rights of mothers, and providing decent public transit seem like they would directly translate to both a more equitable and less racist society.
I know right off that I am about to infer something nasty, but I genuinely just want to know: does it happen when you identify as white or as white AND female?
That’s fine by me. It’s always looked too much like an enema to me…
Hm. Just to be devil’s advocate about this for a second: while I agree to this as a matter of how things fucntion from the white person’s POV, I (as a white girl) would imagine, and have been told, that it’s hugely annoying from the POV of the POC in the conversation. As Pam mentioned above, it means you are always, in every conversation, a representative of your entire race, even when you’re rightfully sick to fucking death of gently educating bumbling but well-intentioned white persons.
Interesting point. I was thinking about each conversation individually, but I see the trap you’re referring to here. It’s very difficult to talk about race issues without abstracting away the individuality of the people involved.
While I will never experience racial discrimination as a POC does, don’t we have *some* shared experiences?
There have to be some shared experiences or we can’t communicate with each other. Learning or growth or whatever happens best when we start with the familiar and leap from there to the unfamiliar. So, yeah, it’s natural to try to relate someone’s experiences of racism to something you have seen or experienced yourself. There should be a way to do it without offending the person you’re talking to, shouldn’t there?
I’ve used the “I’ve had a small taste of something similar” comparison before, and I think it’s worked fairly well. However, since I had some authority over the others in the conversation (as their teacher), I can’t say for certain whether my students actually were offended but just kept their mouths shut.
three things that are BS:
1. The notion that America’s not ready for a black president is a non-sequitir. The question, the way the MSM poses it, “Is America ready?” and “How can this black man win in such a lily-white state?” is really, really short-sighted. Black people are a numerical minority. White people are *always* voting for black people in statewide elections, and furthermore, people of color are always voting across racial lines to elect white people and people from other minority groups.
2. The notion that Obama can’t win because a) the Republican racism is going to beat him or b) he’ll be assassinated, is equally small-minded, both presume that these tactics are good enough. The assassinations of the 1960s happened with a much-more sophisticated reactionary infrastructure. COINTELPRO, etc. It’s not a conspiracy theory, it’s a conspiracy. If we still have that kind of coordination, it’s much better hidden.
3. And finally, black people don’t say “whitey” that often. I have never said “whitey” in my life, until just now. It feels weird.
I think, good luck to Barack and Michelle. They might just pull it off, and if they don’t racism will have played a part. But they’ve already done considerably well against impossible odds, i.e. making a dent in the entrenched liberal racism of the Democratic party, and i wouldn’t be surprised Obama has many more tricks up his sleeve than making nice for the cameras.
Also, “Kwanzaa Socialism” is sort of a reference to “cooperative economics” or “Ujamaa.” It’s one of principles celebrated during the 7 days of Kwanzaa!
I think that makes it officially ok to say that all the other candidates are practicing “Eurocentric capitalism.”
Pam, GREAT post- the links are horrifying, painful, infuriating, but necessary. Silence by the white community serves as a quiet affirmation of “oh, it’s not MY problem; it’s okay to look away- if I don’t say anything, I don’t have to own the problem. If I say nothing; well, then I can’t be called a racist! Because goodness knows, what someone THINKS of me is far more important than my truth. Better to nod and smile and go on with my life.”
I don’t have the time tonight to say all I would about racism; exhausted and in mom-mode. But I will say this: until a person is willing to QUESTION, to talk and ask, to risk putting their feet in their mouth and expose their lack of knowledge, they cannot learn. Been there- done that- still learning every day.
You’ve tried? Your feelings got hurt? Okay. Do you still want to try? Good. Then do so. Try to see from the other person’s point of view where you’re screwing up in your thinking, ask honest questions. Be honest with yourself.
I was lucky; my “teacher” in racial issues was very patient and a dear friend/coworker. She had almost 70 years as a black woman for her background; I was a white girl in my 20’s for mine. We became friends because of work and teacher/pupil because of a misunderstanding. She helped lay the groundwork for me to see more than I ever thought I would and I continue to learn every day.
And another quick one to get your post closer to 100…
Saw Obama speaking live at 6pm in Rochester on C-SPAN. He is getting the patter down, is so eloquent, charming, intelligent- immensely likeable. He drew such a large crowd that they had the speech piped out to the folks outside; he also spoke with all of them BEFORE his scheduled speech in person. Damned fine move and very courteous!
He was interrupted by a small group screaming, “Abortion is Abomination!” over and over- he waited patiently and when his supporters started to heckle back, he calmly told them to wait, to calm down. Eventually peace was restored. Never lost his poise.
I do like this guy and have since the ‘04 convention.
http://www.wcsh6.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=77905
Linking the local NBC affiliate’s 6pm lead story regsarding NH.
I take exception to the statement that I can’t imagine racism because I am white. I experience racism every single time I attempt to talk with, discuss with, and share Ideas with ANY person who is different then I am.
Never fails, I have nothing of importance to say, I can’t add to the discussion. I have no insights to it.
Yeah, No one wants to talk about race, only those of that race do, and anyone who could share is excluded.
Doesn’t matter what race you are, if your opposite from the race in the discussion, bam. “STFU What do you know about it?”
Apparently, I know quite abit about. I know enough to know that anyone attempting frank discussions is going to be shot down.
I know enough to know that institutional racism is put there to cover for other racisms, sexism, and any other bigoted idea.
I know enough to know that everyone is Tribal in someway, and because of how the colonists were when they came here, their treatment of the people’s already here spread far and wide and created a rippling effect for generations to come and in to the future.
I know that other countries do not experience the same type of racism we have here. I know there is a SPECIFIC worry that should, the previously oppressed become powerful, there WILL be retaliation for perceived misdeeds. I worry not because of their race or gender. I worry that all of us harbor racism, sexism, (other isms) and try not to, but it’s there. These would open the door to changes in our culture that could be bad for a good many people.
I didn’t know what racism was when I was little. What I knew is everyone was white. My first experience with POC was when I moved to the south in my youth. Dana was my bestfriend in the whole world. I honestly didn’t see him as another color, I treated him as I would my own family. I loved Dana, and I really, really hated that my parents and his parents were bigoted asses.
Afraid that Dana would hurt me, his parents didn’t want to address the RACE angle either and my questions were met with a kick out the door and I never saw Dana again.
yeah I don’t talk about race, I don’t associate with people who are racist. If I find through the course of knowing them that they are racist, I end the friendship.
So I do take exception to being called racist. The more it’s brought up and trotted out, the more people think about it the more emotional it gets and more involved it gets and then, THEN people become nasty.
What did I ask his parents? Why they were black, I didn’t know about science and how people are different. I was 6yrs old. Dana was my first bestfriend, and he didn’t know the answer either. He encouraged me to ask his Mom and Dad. But because I was white, it was racist question. I still don’t understand that either. I haven’t been able to talk to another person of a different race because of how harsh they were with me. I can’t be comfortable, I notice EVERYTHING. I notice the slights, I notice how I am not welcome, I NOTICE that I am not the racist in the room. I SEE their racism and I can’t call them on it.
All because of some white people who couldn’t treat natives like they deserved to live free.
I have had many offline conversations with people about race, usually with those not of my race, because I find those the most stimulating, the whole looking-for-common-ground sort of conversation. I realize that this may be more of the exception, based on some of the comments here, but it should not deter you from making the attempt. Conversely, POC, the ones who are sick of being patient with “clueless whitey” need to suck it up and stop the whole chip on the shoulder thing. Both situations have brought us where we are today.
Quoting from an earlier post of mine, Skin and the color of money:
My answer to that question, by the way (after I picked my jaw up off of the floor) was to calmly say “yes,” and I took off my watch so she could see the contrast between my tan and what was underneath my timepiece. I then held my arm up next to her olive-skinned Italian forearm to show her that my non-tan color was lighter than her skin tone.Gina was quite friendly and earnest when she asked the question. The fact that she felt comfortable enough with me to ask it, made me feel that she deserved a response that would not humiliate or embarrass her by pointing out her ignorance. I was, however, quite perplexed by the blunt question for several reasons. It made me curious about what she exactly thought “black” meant in physical terms (educating her on the fact that race is a social construct probably would have been too much for her to handle). In her world, though, were we that different? Did she have no concept that all humans just have varying amounts of the same chemical, melanin, that affects the complexion they have? Was she just racist? That last word is loaded. Gina was not outwardly hostile toward someone of another race. To narrowly define that word here — she is a victim of growing up in a world of cultural, institutionalized racism and lack of exposure to people of another color. That lack of exposure perpetuates the problem on both sides. It must be hard if you’re white, asking a question about skin tone, hair texture or any physical characteristics commonly associated with being “black.” You’ve got to take the leap of faith that the person you’re asking isn’t going to react badly. If you’re black, the insult of the question can cut psychologically deep. Are they judging my whole value by my color? Are they saying I’m subhuman? Am I, yet again, the inferior “other”? The fear of negative reaction on both sides in this politically correct world often ensures much-needed conversations on race will never occur. It doesn’t stop the ignorance, the stereotypes, or promote healing on either side when you remove the ability to ask and answer simple questions about difference.***
Quite frankly, the big problem here is that too many white people don’t have any close black friends with whom they can safely discuss race. After all, if you’re actually a good enough friend, you can shoot the sh*t with someone on these kinds of topics. It’s not like you’re going to get into any deep productive conversation with a black co-worker that you don’t socialize with outside of work. It means extending yourself beyond your comfort zone, and it’s pretty clear from the lack of understanding that so many whites have little deep personal interaction with those of another race.
Of course the same is true of minorities who also tend not to extend themselves on this front. It’s the old HS lunchroom phenomenon of seeing people dividing up in their “tribes” at lunch tables.
My table at NY’s Stuyvesant HS (class of ‘81) was one of the exceptions — we were a diverse group of kids, united by our geekiness — Jews, Egyptians, Ethiopians, blacks, Italians, Greeks, etc. I feel fortunate that we found commonalities and then were able to teach one another about our respective cultures and backgrounds.
Once Person A hits the point of saying “Person B can’t possibly understand me”, the conversation is effectively over. If the important information hasn’t been conveyed by that point, then it never will be. That response in and of itself will probably “teach” Person B one of two things: “I am so clueless that I am unteachable” or “Person A doesn’t want me to understand, so I should avoid the topic (and possibly Person A) from now on.”
There are plenty of times Person B will come to one of those conclusions, but that doesn’t mean Person B is being reasonable.
Very, very often how these discussions actually play out is a variant on:
Person A: [Discussing an issue involving racism]
Here, explain everything to me so I suddenly see where you’re coming from, in a way that won’t involve me changing my own assumptions or worldview.
Person B: Oh! I get how that feels, because of how someone of another race was mean to me the other day!
Person A: It’s not like that.
Person B: Well, I don’t mean just like that. But I know what oppression is–I’m a woman, and I can tell you things about all the sexism I’ve faced. For example…
Person A: [Tries to get back to original discussion]
Person B: Wow, is that really true? That sounds bad. Give me examples of how that works. I’m here to learn!
Person A: [Mentions some basics, wants to keep having original discussion]
Person B: I’m not really sure that’s an example of racism–that kind of thing happens all the time, to all kinds of people. But I know I’m a clueless white person!
Person A: I can’t talk to this person.
Person B: Well, if you don’t want me to learn how to fight racism, then I WON’T! Just remember it’s the fault of people like you that we still HAVE racism–I wanted to learn.
Yeah, it’s nice when a more knowledgeable person decides to take on the work of enlightening someone more ignorant. But the amount of entitlement Persons B have in thinking that all discussions on race are being staged for their benefit as Racism 101 workshops is staggering and extremely off-putting.
It’s also remarkable how many Person Bs go around harboring resentment from one charged discussion of race (in which they maintain they were being completely reasonable and the other side just jumped all over them for no reason, though in fact the discussion most likely unfolded something like the one above). Even in the cases where Person A really was being totally unreasonable, though–how is it reasonable for Person B to conclude from that one encounter that this whole process of learning to be anti-racist is useless and doomed? Most people, when they really want to do something, will keep working to achieve it. The people who chuck the whole enterprise after bad individual experiences do so because they weren’t actually ever all that invested in it.
pam, you wrote a really great post here.
i wanted to comment hours ago but held off until i could get through the thread, and meanwhile it like doubled in size!
so:
It’s why nearly all of my posts on tense race matters results in fewer comments, fewer attempts by readers to expose themselves, even anonymously, as potentially ignorant about one issue or another in regards to race, politics and how white privilege affects all of us.
i get it and agree that’s a big part of it, but another important piece (and i guess they overlap too) is what opoponax and lizvelrene have said about “apology hour and cryfest” and the Nice White Lady. nobody wants to be that douchebag. i suspect a lot of us do think back to our encounters with men acting like bulls in the feminist china shop, and figure we’d better do most of the listening and less of the talking. of course there are more self-reliant ways to “learn” — we shouldn’t have to basically eavesdrop on black folks talking to one another in order to educate oneself about racism — but it’s not necessarily either/or, and sometimes you get much more from observing a dynamic exchange of views among lots of different people than you can from a succession of books, each of which is written by just one person with just one point of view.
now i’m making it sound like i like to surf on over to a random poc discussion and lurk there like a creep. although, maybe that is what i do — very often i like to read woc bloggers and then get sucked into reading the comments, but hold off on commenting myself unless there’s something i really feel i can share that would be useful in some way. even though in some contexts i’m not “100% white” (depends who’s looking, i guess) and do have certain personal experiences of racism (? - i guess xenophobia is more accurate maybe) that overlap with ones voiced by the varied readership of, say, brownfemipower, i don’t like to hop on board out of nowhere to say stuff that someone else has already said better and from a more direct or extensive experience of the matter. which is most stuff.
sigh, sorry this is so rambly and self-centered. i did want to add one more thing, which is that there are a lot of other measures of comfort with race difference, not just “do you talk about it” (because i actually do, and often, but it’s more in the vein of “try to share with other white person why x or y seems wrong to me”) — some people have mentioned “how many real friends (no not coworkers) do you have who are poc?”, or “can you count on one hand the number of times you’ve been to a black person’s home?”, etc. and it’s these very intimate-yet-everyday ways of thinking about relationships across race that often make me realize how white-washed my world still is. but after you ask that you have to push right past the responses of “the people i hang out with just happen to be white!” or “well everybody self-segregates so it’s their fault too”, etc.
and speaking of brownfemipower*, the following link is to a post from a month or two back that i think was absolutely dead-on. it’s about race and racism in feminism and in women’s studies, and given that my approach to race issues has been radically altered by my introduction to and successive experiences in discussions of gender issues, it really is relevant to what i was trying to explain before, about how every time i listen and learn a little more, i also learn that i should do some more listening because i have even more learning to do than i thought. anyway, here’s the link: http://brownfemipower.com/?p=1975
after saying that i realize that that explanation, “i just think i should let others do the talking”, can indeed be a stand-in for taking action / real responsibility and an excuse for letting others do the work of bringing down racism. which is not ok and not what i want. just, i’m very willing to let black people’s opinions on what would be best for them guide me in what i fight for, and same with other groups i’m not a part of. i used to wonder why g/l/b folks wanted marriage rights so bad, since marriage was by nature a silly and heterosexist institution — but then i stopped trying to force my own priorities onto others and it got easier to just listen and speak/act/vote in their support.
*and yes i know bfp herself is mexican and is not black, i don’t mean to dilute the issue, just [a] i like reading her because she’s very expansive/inclusive in what she addreses as problems of race and so her commentariat is all kinds of people with lots of povs on race and other stuff too, and [b] sometime she’s so damn right.
and see (here’s a thought!), after i mentioned bfp and put up that link i remembered she was in the midst of the whole blow-up over jessica valenti’s book, which is basically now part of an ongoing history of misunderstanding and resentment between woc bloggers and white feminist bloggers, and suddenly wondered whether it was a good idea to bring her up, because i don’t want to get anyone tense or inflamed in this cool conversation.
but that’s part of it. part of why we don’t talk about race i mean. you have a woman of color criticizing real live actual white people whom we kinda know and like, and then it’s not so theoretical anymore and it doesn’t feel as simply as “just listen quietly”, and doing the right thing takes more fiber than knocking down the straw-racists we animate with redneck voices (a habit i’m trying to break my boyfriend of).
it’s easy for me to have conversations about institutional racism with other white folks in my living room, or to be weirded out by that capitalOne commercial (you know, where they go to visit the land of their “farther back” ancestors on their shitty miles plan and it’s a scary ooga-booga cannibal land) and say something about it to a companion; it’s even easy now to admit that my white privilege did and does benefit me all the time. still not so easy, though, to deal fairly with a direct critique of racism-based insult/injury committed by me.
and like, sometimes i realize my “gee that’s offensive” fuckups well after those around me have let it slide, and i’m so ashamed i don’t even want to think about them anymore. course most people are reluctant to speak sometimes, it’s scary to know that you might just fuck up and hurt someone, or maybe you already did and now what can you do that won’t make it worse?
idunno, just throwing thoughts out there, i couldn’t sleep tonight.
“Gina was not outwardly hostile toward someone of another race. To narrowly define that word here — she is a victim of growing up in a world of cultural, institutionalized racism and lack of exposure to people of another color. That lack of exposure perpetuates the problem on both sides. It must be hard if you’re white, asking a question about skin tone, hair texture or any physical characteristics commonly associated with being “black.” You’ve got to take the leap of faith that the person you’re asking isn’t going to react badly.”
Substitute “Louise” for Gina.
Another coworker, a few years younger than me, once asked how I got my hair so straight (and in the big hair ’80s, it was the bane of my existance!!)- I hesitated and answered, “Um…genetics??” She laughed and it led to a great hair conversation- something I have found out since then can be a very dangerous topic. But that day broke the ice- we eventually had about a half dozen of us gals gabbing about what we did to make our hair the way we wanted it. And I fell in love with cornrows; something I’ve had done a few times to mine but it falls out far too quick. So occasionally, I do a few long thin braids on both sides of my face- my kids do, too.
I know, just anecdotal stuff- but I have long felt that the one-on-one grassroot conversations regular people are capable of on a daily basis have more effect for creating a permanent mutual respect, awareness and understanding for MANY issues, not just race…
Have I been marked a troll or something? Up at #93 I mention specific things we could ALL agitate for that (I think) would help dismantle racism, and the rest of the thread just continues on with “we white folks need to sit back and LISTEN”. How disappointing.
Here’s an idea for the liberal blogosphere: a new discussion format. It goes like this: someone says “let’s talk about racism, but only white people are allowed to comment”, and then we all watch as white people get into a discussion about how they think systemic racism / white privilege could be addressed. (Wouldn’t that be cool? A bunch of white folks actually ARGUING about the best way to help POC!) After a few days, POC could then join in with critiques of “what sounds good” vs “what has been tried before” vs “what are bad ideas.” We could even make a “whitesonly” tag for such stories. Anyone in?
Because from where I sit, racism is a WHITE PROBLEM DAMNIT! It’s about how white folks get comfortable in their white neighborhoods and viciously attack any proposals with teeth that might lead them into an integrated world.
And on top of that, ever effort spent on attacking racism-against-POC directly translates into gains in all of the OTHER civil rights movements such as feminism and GLBT. (No wonder POC are so pissed that whites keep trying to co-opt civil rights forty years after Birmingham.) We should be pushing POC civil rights FIRST because it has so much more effect in the long term. Double funding for EEOC and watch all women benefit too.
“…I’m not sure what it is
But I know when it’s dissed!”
KwanzaaBot (referring to Kwanzaa itself, but the same principle applies IMHO)
Futurama Movie 1: Bender’s Big Score
Well, jeez, I sure did expect someone or other would have said something since I said that flip thing after just starting to skim the thread, lo these many hours ago.
In the past I’ve jumped right in on your invitations to discuss, Pam. I don’t know if anything I ever said was worth remembering.
To me it’s pretty important, but I wind up just retelling my personal stories of epiphany about how racism works subjectively in my US-white trained mind anyway. (To avoid bogging down these personal sharings with theoretical stuff I wrote this entry at my blog almost a year ago:
http://ratracebypass.blogspot.com/2007/02/theoretical-background-stuff-for-pams.html
Evidently I should put the personal stuff there as well, since I keep repeating it.
The short version is, that I was walking in a Pasadena neighborhood that seemed perfectly nice, gradually noticed that there were a lot of black people I was casually noticing here and there, and then the penny dropped that I was in a black neighborhood, and I was suddenly afraid. For no objective reason whatsoever. No one was being threatening in any way, and I had never ever in my life suffered in any way by being a white guy among black people. That fear then, for reasons and in manners I could expound on further, was entirely a product of cultural propaganda. But typically when I discussed this experience among white people, they would come up with more of the same.
There are plenty of white racists who know they are racists, and like it, and consciously try to justify it. They are not forthright generally but it doesn’t take much for them to break the covert facade and share their bigotry. I’ve heard all kinds of people go on and on about how “the Jews control the media” and so on and so forth, for instance.
But there are plenty more who really don’t think they are racist, not a bit of it–like me back then in the late 1980s for instance. I had all kinds of “not-a-racist! I wasn’t raised to a racist!” credentials back then. But this instance and some others I could talk about demonstrated to me how much of the subjective aspect of US racism is a matter of shaping perceptions, and people believing that they are reasonable and that the world they see through this lens is the real one they are being realistic and fair about.
And that’s one way white folks can talk honestly about racism.
Try having your visiting mother in your car, driving through Baltimore, with her window down and loudly proclaiming that she felt like an Oreo cookie! Or spending your teen years listening to your dad bitch about the “N”s on TV.
Revolting, knee-jerk racism, learned at their own mother’s knee- I have asked them both “why” and never gotten a sane answer. Dad knows he’s a racist and doesn’t care; Mom denies she is because “she had one black coworker in the 1960’s that she was friendly to”.
Yeah- so friendly that when they went to lunch together, he followed her by 15 feet as not to offend anyone who might see them walking side-by-side. She has told me that story dozens of times as an example of how open-minded she is- you see, she agreed when he suggested it “for her own safety”.
GAH. More reasons to have a 100 mile distance between us and not allow them to help raise our kids.
I tend not to comment a lot on science blogs, either, at least when they are about the technical issues of science and not the interaction of science with politics and culture.
I read a lot of popularized science works. I’ve taken a few science classes, all basic, introductory level stuff. I am not an expert on science, not compared to the scientists.
When it comes to race conversations, I have a limited amount of experience to offer, and the experiences I *have* had, while important to me learning that racism is very much alive and harming people, are pretty much irrelevant to other people, in terms of the worth of relating them. I’ve read about race issues, I care about race issues… but I’m no more an expert on any of it than I am on science. Less, even, really, because while I can devour vast amounts of science information, after a while, looking at racism and understanding what people face is painful.
Nooses. Who ever would have thought the threat of the noose would be used as a godsdamn joke in the 21st century? Only not a joke, not really, but a very serious threat.
Maybe I was really sheltered, but when I was growing up, the only lynchings I’d ever really heard of were of outlaws in the old west– played by whites in old Westerns. I didn’t really find out that racism wasn’t dying out until I was in college, and though it shocked me, it also stirred me to action, taking part in my first ever ‘protest’ event, a solidarity rally held at my college in reaction to a horrible (anonymous) racism diatribe someone had posted in the library. One of my classmates was a Zulu prince, and *that* was his introduction to race relations in the US.
Well, probably it wasn’t. Even though he was a genuine African rather than African-American, I’m sure he wasn’t as sheltered as I had been.
And here I am, wandering into the personal reactions and stories I said already just aren’t very relevant to discussion of race. So… going back to shutting up, now that I have demonstrated how irrelevant I truly am.
***
But I want to sign up for Kwanzaa Socialism. It sounds even cooler than Kantian Nihilism.
cpp: “I know right off that I am about to infer something nasty, but I genuinely just want to know: does it happen when you identify as white or as white AND female?”
Yes.
cpp, sorry, you’re right. i for one spent a large amount of space trying to address the “why you don’t talk about it” opening that pam put out there — i guess because i look forward to pam’s posts yet rarely comment, but i didn’t feel especially fearful about doing so, just of-little-use — and ended up reiterating many others’ comments.
but i didn’t mean to ignore the stuff you wrote. it was true and a good point. but it seems like a given that the majority of people who read pandagon already do care about the majority of the issues you listed. in fact from what i’ve seen in discussions, discussing race as a facet/lens/motive/etc in policy issues is actually not as difficult for most readers here. and it’s true for the real-life conversations i can think of off-hand, too.
the harder things for white people to address *in discussion* seem to be on a more personal, everyday level than that. like, if someone proposes that a problem among black families is the use of corporal punishment, i am going to hold off on saying much about that because i’m not even able to know whether to address that or disagree with the premise. i tend to think it’s a negative stereotype used by people who think only white people care personally for their children (i’ve encountered such people) — but what to make of the several black people who right away said “that makes sense to me”? possibly white people who were physically punished as children would agree too, but until i find out i certainly don’t feel comfortable writing off people’s analysis of an issue in their own lived experiences and not in mine.
idunno, that’s just an example i’ve encountered, where it’s not so much “i advocate for a living wage” but not so much “i don’t want to ask anything stupid about her hair,” either. or a cross of both. you’re right that racism is white people’s problem and i don’t like the implication in “let others do the talking” that maybe others will also continue to do the work — but i also get pretty uncomfortable when a conversation about race between white people ravels on as though We are discussing the problem of Them, or what we Should do for Them, etc. (a) feels paternalistic, (b) people of color could legitimately take offense at others speaking for them, (c) seems like we wouldn’t get far on our own because we would worry a lot (and rightly) about whether we’re properly separating anecdote from data, etc.
it’s not a bad idea at all, in terms of shouldering even a part of our responsibility to the issue; i just feel a little weird with the putting-into-practice and what actual people’s responses would be. as an example: host it on a predominantly poc blog and a lot of poc might resent that here go the white people making it poc’s problem again; host it on a non-poc focused blog and the quality of discussion would go way down, plus why the hell are they having it on a non-poc focused blog, do they think they can do better without those bloggers?, etc. not saying these are unfair responses even — they seem totally legit to me. just hard to navigate.
this suggests to me that an underlying problem is that there are not many connection points, between poc and “mainstream” blogs (see that’s the problem right there, that they can’t be the same thing), and those get fewer with every race-based misunderstanding that white bloggers/readers dismiss as “not a big deal”, etc. and so i’m wondering where such an exchange might take place that would fairly engage both the white people responsible for the “white people only” part of the discussion and the poc in the “step in to comment” part.
but, hey, pam’s blogging is a good example of an exception. if pam wanted to host this i’d try really hard to contribute, but not too much. (translation: sorry AGAIN for writing so much.)
Despite being a non-white myself I’ve always been hesitant to actually participate in a discussion about race issues because I’m not black either. I feel like mentioning I’m Hispanic almost dilutes the conversation and instead of having a “White Girl Apology Hour And Cry Fest” it always turns into “Hispanic Girl Trying to Distract From the Conversation … Fest.” I can sympathize with being assigned negative stereotypes based on skin because it happens to me too (although to a greatly lesser extent) but I still have trouble grasping real racism. The kind that’s not so obvious because it’s been wired into us. I guess part of the reason I don’t want to comment is I know
I’m racist and trying not to be, and if I say something that someone points out as racist it’ll just prove to me that I haven’t come as far in dispelling it as I’d like to. It’s not that I’m afraid of what other people think (not to the point I’d actually shut up) but it’s fear of how I actually think.
I think, but then again my thinking could be off, that the reason a lot of whites don’t count blacks among their close friends to be able to talk openly about this kind of stuff is because of racism in our culture influencing us at early ages to segregate into groups (not that that we group, but why). I experienced this trend more openly around the fourth or fifth grade when it went beyond just playtime with the people around you to realising there are differences and making decisions based on that. I tended to gravitate towards the white kids (and am ashamed to realise at this moment that my group of friends is comprised almost solely of whites and hispanic whites) and never paid it another thought. It was “just the ways things are supposed to be.” It would be interesting if there was ever a discussion with kids about race besides “let’s just watch theseold civil rights videos for an hour.” An actual discussion complete with questions designed to make young minds think(not “Don’t you think that was just *wrong*?” but questions like “how many people of different races do you consider good friends? Do you feel you can talk about these issues with them comfortable?” or something like that) would go a long way to making people question *themselves* early on. In school it felt like people were trying to sweep it under the rug. “There was racism, then came the civil rights movement, and yay! now it’s gone, let’s move on to something more neutral” is the feeling I always got. It was a Bad Thing to talk about it any more than “Rosa Parks was awesome!” and maybe mentioning how MLK is your hero. To a certain point we’re wired not to talk about it or think about it, especially the younger you are. As a teenager here I really feel I don’t have anything to actually add to the discussion, but I am reading *all* the comments and trying to learn
re: Pam’s tan
I’ve had the same reaction when people find out I not only tan but sometimes burn (it isn’t a good idea to leave me out in the sun for more than two hours because I come back looking like a bronzed lobster x( ). I bought into the stereotype that I was safe from both because I’m not white … and then we went to a waterpark for the day. Never again.
roula, I understand what you mean (particularly the paternalistic us-vs-them comment, and about how systemic racism is sometimes hard to separate from personal racism), and I know that my idea would probably raise a lot of tempers at first. But I would love to see more white people really willing to get dirty with the issue, even if that means pissing everyone off along the way.
Let’s be blunt: racism does hurt everybody, but for white people it can still be limited to merely hurt feelings. And that is one of the ultimate points of white privilege: at any time we can just walk out of the anti-racist dicussion. And I have met very few self-described liberals who are willing to relinquish that privilege.
But the ability to tune it out is changing faster than “we” think. In the towns I have lived in there are now fully-established parallel worlds of black and Latino people with a much stronger civic sense than the white people who continue to move further away from the city centers. The city administrators are black; the soccer fields are used daily by Hispanic men; whole industries have been transformed with Spanish as the new default language. White people in these cities are becoming separated not only from the entire idea of local community, but also the skills required to build and maintain the infrastructure supporting their lifestyles. They don’t know their own neighbors in their whites-only neighborhoods, yet the black family down the road knows everyone around them.
We need to get over our self-centered feelings and start thinking about how to dismantle our own white isolation. The solution isn’t for “them” to get enough money to move into “our” white neighborhoods, it’s for “us” to tear down our protected bubble so we can become real people like “them”.
Actually, I should say that “The solution [IMHO to personal racism anyway]…”
The solution isn’t for “them” to get enough money to move into “our” white neighborhoods, it’s for “us” to tear down our protected bubble so we can become real people like “them”.
that definitely rings true for me and it’s something that’s taken me a long time to realize. i think it’s brought up in brownfemipower’s post that i linked to — and goes without saying in most of the woc blogs i’ve encountered, anyway — the idea that white feminists and mainstream feminism so often wrongly try to do right by striving to “include”, by “reaching out to” the feminisms of women of colors — even to try to “integrate” them doesn’t get it right. it’s white u.s. feminism that is a piece of the larger pie of all-colors-of-feminism, not vice-versa. we are part of global feminism, not equal to and separate from it : to say “and global feminism means feminists in the world outside of the u.s.” doesn’t even make sense when you confront the american exceptionalism of it — (a) “we’re not of the world but outside it”, and then (b) to take that and flip it into “YOUR concerns are a ’special interest/identity politics/miscellaneous’ category,” not ours.
and that’s why black history month (and women’s history month, etc) has never been and will never be “enough”. white people are like 1/6 of the world, and yet we cling to the idea that by “integrating” EVERYONE ELSE “into” our little corner of experience, we’ll have given the other 5/6 their due and everyone will be happy. and this is just the white people that care about racism!
in short, you’re right that it’s our job to make ourselves face the experience of poc, and not continue to make them assume the burden of being fluent in both their own world and “white people world”. i worry this is stupid to say, but i think the last two years i’ve done myself some good by living in predominantly black neighborhoods. i don’t know if it necessarily brought about any concrete good, but just doing it made me realize that we don’t usually do it and ought to make the effort.
ooh- should say: the catch though is you can end up invading others’ space and i worry about that a lot. e.g., i’m not the only white person who thought to move to those particular historically-black neighborhoods, and outside efforts to “redevelop” are encroaching in both.
this is a good place to mention that it really bugs me when people sublimate the issue of race into “it’s really all about CLASS,” i suspect because they (we) feel more comfortable running our mouths off about something that (we tell ourselves) isn’t an immutable category like race is, something that could theoretically happen to us someday and well there was the time i was broke in college so i kind of know what it’s like to be poor. or something.
i bring up the attempts to erase “race” with “class” because when i talk with people of my own race and class about my neighborhood or the one i lived in before, they almost always refer about the redevelopment efforts as “gentrification”. but gentrification is really more (or so i thought) about poor areas being repopulated with the middle- or upper- classes — not about whether the middle/upperclass people who move in are black or white. and yet this is what they mean.
my neighborhood in atlanta was, admittedly, kind of slummy until 1-2 years before we moved in, and still is a little — but in the 60s it was a middle-class black neighborhood, just like my new neighborhood in dc is today. so i’m weirded out both by the obvious attempts to make each area the new cool place to be for white hipsters AND by the perhaps-benign whitewashing (ha! ha!) of this phenomenon as a class thing and not a race thing. because i think people buy more easily that it’s good to bring in more high-dollar commerce/rents, but not so much if you’re just trading out the color of the denizens. is this making sense? should i shut up?
ack, and by “perhaps benign whitewashing” i didnt really mean benign - i DO think it has an ill effect. i meant more like “perhaps not ill-intentioned”.
in short, you’re right that it’s our job to make ourselves face the experience of poc, and not continue to make them assume the burden of being fluent in both their own world and “white people world”. i worry this is stupid to say, but i think the last two years i’ve done myself some good by living in predominantly black neighborhoods.
It’s not stupid to say. I may be in the minority (of minorities) on this point, but I like the fact that my old neighborhood in Brooklyn, Bedford-Stuyvesant (specifically the historic area of Stuyvesant Heights) is becoming a more diverse neighborhood. The downside, of course, is that it is becoming more expensive to live there, but it’s an area of the city where there is a good amount of black homeownership.
It’s not enough, however, simply to move into a black neighborhood but to also engage with the community in which you live, make friends with people on your block, and not hunker down in a siege mentality that one is homesteading in the wild west. There is a lot of that in gentrifying neighborhoods as well.
Read my post, My Bed-Stuy.
this is a good place to mention that it really bugs me when people sublimate the issue of race into “it’s really all about CLASS,” i suspect because they (we) feel more comfortable running our mouths off about something that (we tell ourselves) isn’t an immutable category like race is, something that could theoretically happen to us someday and well there was the time i was broke in college so i kind of know what it’s like to be poor. or something.
Part of the problem is that Americans use race as a class signifier, and white people do have (some) class mobility here.
Let’s stand Spike Lee up next to my blonde, blue-eyed best friend and let people guess which one of them grew up in a middle-class home with college-educated parents and which one grew up in a large family in the roughest part of Detroit with parents who barely managed to get a GED. Nine out of 10 white people are going to guess that Lee is the one from the poor, undereducated urban family, not my pretty blonde friend. And yet that’s exactly where she’s from.
That’s one of those white privilege things that people don’t talk about: class mobility. Sure, my friend grew up poor in Detroit, but she and her family scrimped and saved and worked and now she’s a marketing manager living in a nice upper-middle-class part of Orange County, Ca., and people are amazed when she tells them where she’s from.
She had that option because she’s white. POC don’t have that option. If you’re born black, you’re born lower-class, and it doesn’t matter how much money you have or how much education your parents had. You’re lower-class. Period.
From roula: “… i think the last two years i’ve done myself some good by living in predominantly black neighborhoods. i don’t know if it necessarily brought about any concrete good, but just doing it made me realize that we don’t usually do it and ought to make the effort.”
One day when I was home on maternity leave, my door bell rang- it was one of my pals from work (the one who asked me about my straight hair, actually). She had looked up my address, as she had a outfit for tha baby, and was very surprised that I lived about 2 blocks’ from her grandmother’s house!
We had bought the rowhouse because we had a huge dog and the park was nearby, then found later that our block was considered a “border” between white Baltimore and black Baltimore. It was a mix of white, black, Hispanic, Greek, Polish, and Korean within one block.
louise, your block sounds awesome.
pam, i actually read your post about bedford-stuy about a year ago, which was a few months after our first move from our homogeneous college neighborhood, and i liked reading your take on it. i’m still glad you see it that way, i guess selfishly on my part. you mention you’re the “minority among minorities” on this, and i definitely have heard some people speak compellingly for the opposite opinion — for letting black people have their damn space, basically. one was an african-american studies prof at my largely white and “self-segregated” university, and the way she put it was that she spends all day all week among whiteness and would like her at-home life to be a little less demanding of her. that seems reasonable too.
simply to move into a black neighborhood but to also engage with the community in which you live, make friends with people on your block, and not hunker down in a siege mentality that one is homesteading in the wild west. There is a lot of that in gentrifying neighborhoods as well.
omg i know what you’re talking about. “i’m just laying low til the other white people come”. it’s shockingly tempting to think like that sometimes. but yeah, it doesn’t make much difference whom you live with if you’re just doing your best to pretend they’re not there.
in atlanta we did get to know our near neighbors, not super well but well enough to say hi in the driveway and borrow gardening tools and talk about the weekend — you know, neighborly shooting-the-shit. here in dc i think there’s actually more of a general neighborly feel on our block (i.e. we’re not the only white folks who talk to their black neighbors), but we personally aren’t really a part of it because we’re kinda new and kind of embarrassed by how poorly maintained our rowhouse is compared to the others. (i blame the fact that they’re all already in their 30s or beyond, plus our deadbeat landlord.) plus there’s no lawns or driveways to socialize from. heh.
I think that one reason why white folks avoid and/or don’t deeply engage with conversations about race is not just fear of being labeled a racist, but the fact that the word “racist” feels unredeemable. It feels final, forever, this-is-who-you-are. And I know that hurt feelings aren’t much next to suffering from institutional and personal racism for a lifetime, but I can see why white folks — myself included, sometimes — back off. I just finished reading Lose Your Mother by Saidiya Hartman, and in it she relates an anecdote where her (black) mother gets pulled over by a (white) policeman, and Saidiya, who is like 10 years old at the time, tears the cop a new one for being racist, and would you do this if my mother were white, and who the hell do you think you are, etc. And the cop says something like, “I’m sorry you think that’s the way things are, young lady,” and walks off without giving mom a ticket. I was conflicted reading this story, because half of me was thrilled at the idea of a badass 10 year old girl who would do such a thing, and part of me was sympathetic to the cop, who easily could have been just doing his job (mom had run a red light, and didn’t happen to have her license on her). I would be incredibly upset if I were in his place — upset that a 10 year old looked at me and saw someone who hated black people, or who thought that black people should know their place, or who pulled over black people where I wouldn’t pull over white people, or whatever. But at the same time, what that 10 year old girl said, NEEDS TO BE SAID. I mean, my discomfort is necessary, right? Someone needs to say to well-meaning white people something along the lines of, “Hey, I know you mean well, but…” And the well-meaning person has to listen, and think and discuss and eventually change. But it’s really hard for well-meaning people to volunteer for that discussion if there’s no chance that they’re going to be forgiven at the end of the discussion, you know? (”Forgiven” is not exactly the right word here, but I’m not sure of the exact right word. Reconciliation, maybe?) And I know that minorities and people of color are probably sick to death of volunteering for this as well, or not volunteering for it and getting roped into it because they’re the only black/hispanic/asian/etc person in the room. The thing is, you can read all the books and blogs about race relations and race theory and current events that are out there, but it’s not really worth a damn if you can’t make it work with real, actual people. I am not sure what the answer is. I would like to say that everyone has to give a little bit, but I feel like minorities/poc are already giving more, you know? I don’t think it’s anyone’s responsibility to educate me, but I can only educate myself so far, and then I need help.
I was raised in a progressive household in a very, very white state (New Hampshire), so up until the time that I went away to college (Baltimore), my understanding of race and racism was very theoretical. About halfway through my college career, one of my older cousins (who is white) married a black man, and they now have two kids who I adore. And all of a sudden all of this stuff because very personal and close to home for me. The thing is, sometimes I am scared of my reactions. When I read about things like Jena or post-Katrina New Orleans or the young black woman in WV (?) who was kidnapped and assaulted, I think of these things happening to my little cousins (they are 5 and 3) and I just lose it. I either burst out crying or fly into a rage. And that really scares me, because it means I can’t talk about it productively, I can’t have a conversation about it, I can’t talk to other people about their reactions, I can only be distraught or pissed off. I just don’t seem to have any filters anymore. So that is another reason why sometimes I avoid conversations about race — a general preference for not bursting into tears. (I know, I need to grow up. I’m trying, okay, but it’s slow going.)
Anyways, that’s my .02, in a long and somewhat self-indulgent comment.
Another anecdote: one day my elderly patient came in with his son as his driver and his 7 year old grandson. I started drawing blood on nice Grampa (was drawing a full pint for upcoming surgery so he had his own in the blood bank) and son settled down with his newspaper. Grandson was very curious but sweet- I explained what i was doing and let him watch. (Grampa had been a patient a few times and knew me fairly well; he didn’t mind)
After about a minute or two, the 7 year old piped up and said, “My daddy doesn’t like white people.” The father’s body CRINGED behind the newspaper, but he stayed silent. I said, ” My dad’s like that, but I think people are people. But we should still be nice and respect our dads, right?” He agreed and went onto something else.
Then I saw the father’s eyes over the paper- he said nothing, although he was clearly nervous and a bit embarrassed, and just nodded “thanks!” at me. I smiled and nodded back- nothing needed to be said.
People ARE people, and the racial issues go both ways sometimes. Maybe I helped him see that- maybe not. It was my first experience of racism against ME, though, and gave me food for thought.
Though others have made the point (and probably more thoughtfully than I will), I’m delurking to reiterate that, as a white person, I don’t speak up in conversations about race because of fear and ignorance.
I grew up in all-white small towns in the Midwest. (You know the kind, where the only people of color were the adopted Asian kid and the adopted Black kid.) I’m currently stuck in a mid-size mostly white town on the Plains. I am profoundly ignorant on issues of race. Sure, I’ve read a few things, and sure, I’ve attended a few seminars, but that hardly qualifies me to make any sort of meaningful contribution to a conversation about race.
I’m not so much afraid of being called a racist, but as someone else said above, I’m afraid to discover what I think, what junk has infiltrated my mind through no wish of my own. It’s horrifying to find out what you really think, when you’ve been so insulated that you can honestly believe in your own lack of racism. It deeply shames you when you discover otherwise, when you actually hear and see what you’re capable of in less isolated circumstances.
It is a function of white privilege to be able to go on in ignorance, to be able to ignore that fear of one’s own racism. And to that extent, racism is a white problem, ‘cuz until more of us are–until I am–willing to plunge into our discomfort, the conversations won’t start. Progress won’t be made, because too many of us are in denial that anything is wrong.
louise, i wonder about that story with the kid and his dad. it could be one of those “i’m 7 and when my dad is upset about racism he goes off about White People so he must not like white people”, or it could be “no he really doesn’t trust/like individual white people either”.
actually it seems to me there’s a fair amount of possible overlap between those two “categories” i just made up, so it’s not really that they are two always-distinct things, but you know what i mean, right? like, often “white people suck!” doesn’t mean that *i* suck but that white privilege sucks. etc.
Agreed, roula; I don’t think at all it was ME personally as all whites and/or privilege. In fact, the privilege is the far harder to erase in my mind; so many things in life I take for granted that have been true for me and NOT true for others. Tearing THAT down takes longer, as new examples show up that I never considered.
But it was the very first time in my life that I found out that someone could or did dislike me not for my words or actions, but simply because of my skin color. Growing up in very white Maine, I didn’t get that at all.
When I wrote my comment above, I was pretty rushed for time (as I generally am when on-line) so I didn’t spell it out, but the point I think I was trying to make is that racism is not something we white folks just either sign on to or read about in newspapers when others sign on–it’s a system we are born into, raised in, and even those of us who learn to recognize, reject, and oppose it are generally still stuck participating in to some extent. Like, I can’t do anything personally to equalize how a highway patrollman who has pulled me over would react to my appearance versus that of a black man–still less if a lot of the liability of “driving while black” lies in the decision of the cop to turn on his sirens and pull them over much more often in the first place.
I haven’t felt that “hey, you’re white so STFU” so much as many commentors here evidently have, or perhaps I felt it but commented anyway. I haven’t often been told “your comment sucks, foolish white boy,” but when I am told that that doesn’t necessarily mean the end of the conversation, nor do I feel what I have had to say was worthless. Either I stand by what I have said and done or I learn to recognize the flaw and acknowledge that. But I don’t think we white folks can reasonably say “well, I wasn’t invited and I wasn’t entitled to speak.”
Because we can speak of our own experience and our understanding of how racism affects ourselves.
For instance, I have once been in the sights of a policeman’s gun, and I suspect that in that instance, if I had been black, I might well be dead now.
It’s not just something abstract and distant, like news about progress in science or a civil war in Asia. If we think we have “nothing to say” than I suspect that usually means we are a much bigger part of the problem than we realize.
The Dark Wraith/Minstrel Boy graphic had to have been inspired by John Rogers’ The Crazification Factor over at Kung Fu Monkey, originally posted on Oct 7, 2005. The original phrasing was “You Kill Obama and WE WILL BURN SHIT DOWN”
http://superbabymama.blogspot.com/2007/12/those-tears.html
From one of my favorite bloggers (kactus) on Feministe; this from her site. Powerful piece.