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	<title>Comments on: Primary endorsement post</title>
	<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/02/primary-endorsement-post/</link>
	<description>Just another WordPress weblog</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 22:16:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: geeno</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/02/primary-endorsement-post/#comment-478634</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jan 2008 20:17:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/02/primary-endorsement-post/#comment-478634</guid>
					<description>I'm still in the Edwards camp - just where I started - myself.  Obama keeps doing things that ALMOST win me, then he says or does something that pushes me back to Edwards.   He is the proudest liberal in the bunch, and If being liberal can you elected - it will become the wave of the future.  A future I can live in.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m still in the Edwards camp - just where I started - myself.  Obama keeps doing things that ALMOST win me, then he says or does something that pushes me back to Edwards.   He is the proudest liberal in the bunch, and If being liberal can you elected - it will become the wave of the future.  A future I can live in.
</p>
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		<title>by: Lingual X</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/02/primary-endorsement-post/#comment-478413</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 15:29:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/02/primary-endorsement-post/#comment-478413</guid>
					<description>I was in the &quot;no Edwards&quot; camp over the whole Amanda/Melissa blogging thing too.  And then I decided to read through all of the proposals on Obama/Clinton/Edwards site in detail over the weekend.  I ran those up against the major issues I will be voting on, and Edwards won, hands-down.  Clinton has (no surprise) moved more towards the center than her initial exploratory stuff suggested.  But, in writing, she has a variety of good proposals.  In contrast, Obama has nothing--absolutely nothing--written down that compares to either Clinton or Edwards. You can't tell what he's actually proposing.  His website works more to assuage people as to how &quot;centrist&quot; he is (see the &quot;people of faith&quot; link) rather than to spell out what his real plans are.  I don't see him as the candidate of change at all--he needs to propose something, something different to win that award.

Edwards is not only solid on all of the issues, he's really visionary, but you already knew that from Amanda's post.  I was pleasantly surprised &amp;amp; I am solidly in his camp.  I hope he does well in NH. 

For the record:  I also think Obama is a little creepy where women are concerned.  To wit:  watch the &quot;Women for Obama&quot; YouTube video which is creepalicious.  It stereotypes women in the worst possible way (think Democratic version of 2004's &quot;safety moms&quot;).  Make sure you especially listen to the &quot;guilt gene&quot; scene. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ASwQGwTDII    </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I was in the &#8220;no Edwards&#8221; camp over the whole Amanda/Melissa blogging thing too.  And then I decided to read through all of the proposals on Obama/Clinton/Edwards site in detail over the weekend.  I ran those up against the major issues I will be voting on, and Edwards won, hands-down.  Clinton has (no surprise) moved more towards the center than her initial exploratory stuff suggested.  But, in writing, she has a variety of good proposals.  In contrast, Obama has nothing&#8211;absolutely nothing&#8211;written down that compares to either Clinton or Edwards. You can&#8217;t tell what he&#8217;s actually proposing.  His website works more to assuage people as to how &#8220;centrist&#8221; he is (see the &#8220;people of faith&#8221; link) rather than to spell out what his real plans are.  I don&#8217;t see him as the candidate of change at all&#8211;he needs to propose something, something different to win that award.</p>
	<p>Edwards is not only solid on all of the issues, he&#8217;s really visionary, but you already knew that from Amanda&#8217;s post.  I was pleasantly surprised &amp; I am solidly in his camp.  I hope he does well in NH. </p>
	<p>For the record:  I also think Obama is a little creepy where women are concerned.  To wit:  watch the &#8220;Women for Obama&#8221; YouTube video which is creepalicious.  It stereotypes women in the worst possible way (think Democratic version of 2004&#8217;s &#8220;safety moms&#8221;).  Make sure you especially listen to the &#8220;guilt gene&#8221; scene. <a href='http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ASwQGwTDII' rel='nofollow'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ASwQGwTDII</a>
</p>
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		<title>by: James Robinson</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/02/primary-endorsement-post/#comment-478387</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 14:05:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/02/primary-endorsement-post/#comment-478387</guid>
					<description>jessilikewhoa:

&quot;i like obama as my senator but hes keeps talking about working across the aisle and i dont trust the implications of that type of rhetoric. it sounds like fancy talk for compromising on issues that matter in order to be popular.&quot;

As Iowa Rep. Dave Loebsack, my Representative, a staunch progressive and as complete an unpolitician as there is, put it: You have to have at least a cordial working relationship with the people you work with in order to really get things done. As long as Democrats and Republicans are Hatfields and McCoys the Congress will remain obstructed and largely ineffectual. This doesn't mean that you compromise, it means that you establish a connection on a human level so that you can even talk, and then you get to know where everyone stands so that you can assemble allies on particular issues. It doesn't matter if their reasons are not yours as long as the legislation passes.

Right now the Republicans vote as a bloc because they're forced to from the top down. Recall the Republican Congressman who actually cried as he voted for CAFTA because it would be devastating to his constituents. Most of this is to protect Bush and Cheney. But Bush and Cheney will be gone in 2009.

It is simply not true that there is no value in reaching across the aisle. Kucinich reached across to, of all people, Walter &quot;Freedom Fries&quot; Jones to cosponsor his last bill to withdraw from Iraq. Feingold reached across to McCain for campaign finance reform even though McCain's reason for support it was completely partisan and cynical. Iowa Sens. Harkin and Grassley worked together on a good farm bill that was torpedoed by, among other things, Blue Dog Democrats protecting powerful agribusiness interests in their states. And, of course, there was the memorable scene of the Republicans rising to support Kucinich's call for impeachment. Sure, they were hoping to defeat it, but as with McCain-Feingold what they hope to do doesn't matter. It's what the outcome is that matters.

I saw Barack Obama right before the caucus. He offered this version of diplomacy: He would tell the lobbyists and any opposition exactly where he stood. They had a choice: Work with him or be shoved aside by him and the army of popular support behind him. Reaching out doesn't mean selling out. Negotiating does not mean compromising. Diplomacy is not soft. 

Obama talks about hope and about what ordinary people can doso that he can negotiate from a position of strength, with an army at his back that believes that if it fights hard enough it can beat any odds. I can live with that.

As to his being &quot;centrist...&quot; No. He sometimes uses conservative rhetoric to bring disgruntled Republicans and independents into the discussion, but I have a hard time telling his positions from Edwards' (all the candidates are to my right). For me it comes down to approach, and I think Obama's is finally more effective.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>jessilikewhoa:</p>
	<p>&#8220;i like obama as my senator but hes keeps talking about working across the aisle and i dont trust the implications of that type of rhetoric. it sounds like fancy talk for compromising on issues that matter in order to be popular.&#8221;</p>
	<p>As Iowa Rep. Dave Loebsack, my Representative, a staunch progressive and as complete an unpolitician as there is, put it: You have to have at least a cordial working relationship with the people you work with in order to really get things done. As long as Democrats and Republicans are Hatfields and McCoys the Congress will remain obstructed and largely ineffectual. This doesn&#8217;t mean that you compromise, it means that you establish a connection on a human level so that you can even talk, and then you get to know where everyone stands so that you can assemble allies on particular issues. It doesn&#8217;t matter if their reasons are not yours as long as the legislation passes.</p>
	<p>Right now the Republicans vote as a bloc because they&#8217;re forced to from the top down. Recall the Republican Congressman who actually cried as he voted for CAFTA because it would be devastating to his constituents. Most of this is to protect Bush and Cheney. But Bush and Cheney will be gone in 2009.</p>
	<p>It is simply not true that there is no value in reaching across the aisle. Kucinich reached across to, of all people, Walter &#8220;Freedom Fries&#8221; Jones to cosponsor his last bill to withdraw from Iraq. Feingold reached across to McCain for campaign finance reform even though McCain&#8217;s reason for support it was completely partisan and cynical. Iowa Sens. Harkin and Grassley worked together on a good farm bill that was torpedoed by, among other things, Blue Dog Democrats protecting powerful agribusiness interests in their states. And, of course, there was the memorable scene of the Republicans rising to support Kucinich&#8217;s call for impeachment. Sure, they were hoping to defeat it, but as with McCain-Feingold what they hope to do doesn&#8217;t matter. It&#8217;s what the outcome is that matters.</p>
	<p>I saw Barack Obama right before the caucus. He offered this version of diplomacy: He would tell the lobbyists and any opposition exactly where he stood. They had a choice: Work with him or be shoved aside by him and the army of popular support behind him. Reaching out doesn&#8217;t mean selling out. Negotiating does not mean compromising. Diplomacy is not soft. </p>
	<p>Obama talks about hope and about what ordinary people can doso that he can negotiate from a position of strength, with an army at his back that believes that if it fights hard enough it can beat any odds. I can live with that.</p>
	<p>As to his being &#8220;centrist&#8230;&#8221; No. He sometimes uses conservative rhetoric to bring disgruntled Republicans and independents into the discussion, but I have a hard time telling his positions from Edwards&#8217; (all the candidates are to my right). For me it comes down to approach, and I think Obama&#8217;s is finally more effective.
</p>
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		<title>by: seeker6079</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/02/primary-endorsement-post/#comment-478344</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 10:11:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/02/primary-endorsement-post/#comment-478344</guid>
					<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Seeker—I remind you that the Edwards campaign kept us on, and then we resigned of our own accord. Which is a much different thing than throwing us overboard.&lt;/blockquote&gt;Then kindly permit me to remind you of my earlier post:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Somehow I think that she would have stayed if Edwards had stopped seeing her and McEwan as distractions and opened his fool eyes to see her as a weapon.&lt;/blockquote&gt;The fact that the two of you were noble and Roman enough to fall on your swords does not mean that Edwards should have permitted you to do so.  That attack on his people was a test of strength: first, a moral test of his backbone in the face of assault; second, a tactical test of his ability to use his opponent's attack as a springboard to an even more vigourous and effective counterattack.  He failed both tests.  Add the incredible failure of the VP debate in 2004 and we have three strikes, he's out.  Frankly, I think that the Democratic party has had enough Neville Chamberlains and Horace Wilsons.

Thomas, I think that answers your gloat as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<blockquote><p>Seeker—I remind you that the Edwards campaign kept us on, and then we resigned of our own accord. Which is a much different thing than throwing us overboard.</blockquote>
Then kindly permit me to remind you of my earlier post:</p>
	<blockquote><p>Somehow I think that she would have stayed if Edwards had stopped seeing her and McEwan as distractions and opened his fool eyes to see her as a weapon.</blockquote>
The fact that the two of you were noble and Roman enough to fall on your swords does not mean that Edwards should have permitted you to do so.  That attack on his people was a test of strength: first, a moral test of his backbone in the face of assault; second, a tactical test of his ability to use his opponent&#8217;s attack as a springboard to an even more vigourous and effective counterattack.  He failed both tests.  Add the incredible failure of the VP debate in 2004 and we have three strikes, he&#8217;s out.  Frankly, I think that the Democratic party has had enough Neville Chamberlains and Horace Wilsons.</p>
	<p>Thomas, I think that answers your gloat as well.
</p>
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		<title>by: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/02/primary-endorsement-post/#comment-478260</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 22:00:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/02/primary-endorsement-post/#comment-478260</guid>
					<description>Seeker, I can't resist saying &quot;I told you so.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Seeker, I can&#8217;t resist saying &#8220;I told you so.&#8221;
</p>
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		<title>by: Amanda Marcotte</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/02/primary-endorsement-post/#comment-478256</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:50:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/02/primary-endorsement-post/#comment-478256</guid>
					<description>Seeker---I remind you that the Edwards campaign kept us on, and then we resigned of our own accord.  Which is a much different thing than throwing us overboard.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Seeker&#8212;I remind you that the Edwards campaign kept us on, and then we resigned of our own accord.  Which is a much different thing than throwing us overboard.
</p>
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		<title>by: jessilikewhoa, lord seitan</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/02/primary-endorsement-post/#comment-478219</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 18:57:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/02/primary-endorsement-post/#comment-478219</guid>
					<description>doug, i personally like mccain for their side. i figure we dems have a tendency to repeatedly shoot ourselves in the feet, and to me mccain seems far less batshit insane than any of the other possible republicans. i like that hes willing to stand up to the rest of them and go &quot;no, seriously, torture is BAD.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>doug, i personally like mccain for their side. i figure we dems have a tendency to repeatedly shoot ourselves in the feet, and to me mccain seems far less batshit insane than any of the other possible republicans. i like that hes willing to stand up to the rest of them and go &#8220;no, seriously, torture is BAD.&#8221;
</p>
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		<title>by: Neil the Ethical Werewolf</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/02/primary-endorsement-post/#comment-478212</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 17:42:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/02/primary-endorsement-post/#comment-478212</guid>
					<description>Doug, I'm hoping Romney wins the GOP primary.  He's one of the easier guys to beat, with his bizarre flip-floppery and the Mormon thing turning off lots of people.  

And if he somehow became president, he'd probably be more restrained in doing bad things than the others, since he's willing to bend to public opinion.  While he's far worse than a Democrat on any of these issues, lacks Giuliani's bloodthirst and Huckabee's theocratic leanings.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Doug, I&#8217;m hoping Romney wins the GOP primary.  He&#8217;s one of the easier guys to beat, with his bizarre flip-floppery and the Mormon thing turning off lots of people.  </p>
	<p>And if he somehow became president, he&#8217;d probably be more restrained in doing bad things than the others, since he&#8217;s willing to bend to public opinion.  While he&#8217;s far worse than a Democrat on any of these issues, lacks Giuliani&#8217;s bloodthirst and Huckabee&#8217;s theocratic leanings.
</p>
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		<title>by: Doug S.</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/02/primary-endorsement-post/#comment-478209</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 17:33:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/02/primary-endorsement-post/#comment-478209</guid>
					<description>Who's the pick for the Republican primary?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Who&#8217;s the pick for the Republican primary?
</p>
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		<title>by: serena kitt</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/02/primary-endorsement-post/#comment-478185</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 16:18:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/01/02/primary-endorsement-post/#comment-478185</guid>
					<description>hear hear, i hope Obama wins, but i'd be glad with Edwards, too. i disagree with your &quot;only Nixon could go to China idea&quot; reasoning, though: Edwards is no Nixon!

(thank goodness).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>hear hear, i hope Obama wins, but i&#8217;d be glad with Edwards, too. i disagree with your &#8220;only Nixon could go to China idea&#8221; reasoning, though: Edwards is no Nixon!</p>
	<p>(thank goodness).
</p>
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