Thanks to Robbie for this link; I may have more to do with it later, preferably on the podcast. But I thought I’d share this bit with you for a bit of New Year’s Eve hilarity:
Challenge a woman immediately to force her out of her comfort zone
Just as in sales, you need to offer a proposition to your prospect. In fact, this is done on the street in the first 10 seconds when I ask for a telephone number. Shit or get off the pot, right? I found that unless I force a decision upon the woman, I learn nothing about her. Is she open-minded, a risk-taker, or closed and conservative? Can she adjust to new information, or does it confuse her?
Quite a little story he tells himself. He aggressively demands a woman’s phone number, probably without introducing himself properly, and if she rejects that advance, then it’s because she’s conservative and close-minded. It’s perfect; absolutely no flaws in the logic or something he’s overlooked. And by reading this, I’ve discovered that I’m conservative and close-minded, because I’d never give this asshole my phone number. Who knew?
FWIW, I’m not trying to pick on men in general when I make fun of these “get any woman into bed” assholes. In fact, the ultimate prey of these dating advice guys is not the women they supposedly seduce—I suspect that those women just wanted to get laid, too, and the guys are telling themselves they “bagged” them as a bit of self-fluffery. The ultimate prey of the pick-up artists is other guys who are shy or frustrated or whatever, and thereby vulnerable to the idea that they should just be assholes instead of actually bothering to address their real issues, whether it’s subconscious misogyny or shyness.
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Well, I found the entire article to be quite creepy. What with his determination to overide the woman’s agenda, and telling a guy to decide what he wants and then go and take it, I can’t help but wonder when the “seduction” turns into date rape, because Hey, he wants sex and her agenda means nothing.
“Override the woman’s agenda” sounds an awful lot like a fancy-pants term for date rape.
Or what Linda said when I was wrangling with the anti-spam.
clearly he’s one of the 4 per cent of the population w/ no conscience & we should be grateful he’s identifying himself before we encounter him unawares. ick. http://www.curledup.com/sociopat.htm
Dang. Fiona and Linda beat me to it. Any guy demanding your number right off the bat…I’m pathetically unstreet-smart, and I wouldn’t give my number to a guy I just met. And it’s too easy to imagine this trend continuing: Once you’re in a room w/ a bed, demand condom-free sex. If she refuses, she’s a mistrustful bitch who places her own silly needs to be disease/pregnancy-free over your pleasure.
Demanding a number right off the bat sounds like a recipe for getting a lot of wrong numbers to me. But then again, I’m not trying to override a woman’s agenda either. And yet I managed to have a good bit of sex when I was single. Wonder how I managed that?
Of all the ways he could’ve emphasized the “10 seconds to get her number comment,” did he really have to say “shit or get off the pot?!”
Luckily he’s getting socked with a 2.5 star average out of 5 so far.
I agree with this Casanova guy that neither party can expect wedding bells or long term intimacy when engaging in a sexual relationship with a person you have just met. Until promises are made or strong sentiments declared, it is wise to expect nothing more than a one night stand or a casual fling. But I find it disturbing that the Today show commenters and Mr. Casanova himself cast the woman as inevitably harboring romantic hopes above and beyond the immediate sexual relationship.
This guy is a scoundrel not because he has flings with women but because he is unabashedly misogynist. Like when he notes that he doesn’t care about the feelings of an ice cream scoop he wants to eat, so why he should he care about the feelings of a woman he wants to screw. Or when he talks about women always having some kind of agenda, generally one involving his wallet. Or - most tellingly — his obvious belief that having sex with a woman is about oneupmanship rather than an activity that both parties find pleasurable and rewarding.
Damn, that sounds about one step up from “Wanna fuck?”
Yes, I know the punchline to that joke is “Yeah, but you’d be surprised how much fucking I get done,” but remember that the line before that is, “You must get your face slapped a lot.”
I knew a guy with that strategy back in Belgrade. His success-rate was zero. But he never learned from the experience and kept doing it well into hid 30s. Loser.
I thought it was fascinating that he argues against tried and true dating forms that include walking around, talking, going out to dinner because it would be “so much easier” for a woman to actually get to know him by going back to his apartment for sex.In his world he’s not interested in women who won’t have sex with him, and he says almost outright that the more of his time they take the less likely they are to have sex with him. In other words–the more they know him the less likely they are to put out.
His idea of a “masculine agenda” and a feminine agenda are a scream, when you think about it. In his discussion of how problematic it is to let women “get to know him” before screwing him he says pretty much outright that any woman who isn’t desperate enough to go straight back to his apartment and have sex with him before dinner aren’t going to bother after walking around and talking to him or going out to a nice restaurant.
Its pretty clear that his biggest fear is that *the more they know about him* the less likely they are to screw him. He says outright that taking a woman to a nice place to eat is a losing proposition because he’s so uninteresting (or they are) that they don’t fall in love with him and screw him afterwards.
Its disturbing and sad, really, that this poor guy thinks of himself as such a trivial slab of meat that no one would ever be interested in him for himself. He must be the dullest date ever.
aimai
Ah, these are the aggressive approaches that sends me into a shuttering of “what-what-/what/ fuck you!” before turning away to reclaim my personal space.
re: misterniceguy1960
Depending on the setting, “wanna fuck” is actually much better, and it’s much more preferable to lying about wanting a relationship when all you want to do is fuck. Though pulling out a condom and inquiring “are you interested in a no-string attached one-night stand?” is much better.
All this “I can score with any chick” b.s. reminds me of this guy I knew in high school.
We were sitting around in the usual rural teenager way, bored off our asses, probably passing a joint or a sprite bottle mostly full of really bad vodka. He pipes up with “You know what’s cool? I have, like, this power over chicks. They just can’t say no to me. I can tell them to do whatever, and 9 out of 10 times they do. No matter how nasty. Watch: Hey, Opoponax, take your top off.” So I did, not so much due to some hypnotic power he had over me, but because I’m just not a terribly modest person, and I’d known most of these people since before I even had breasts to be modest about. I just kind of didn’t give a shit.
And then of course he spent about 6 months crowing to everyone in school that I was a dirty slut who didn’t even put up a fight when he asked me to take my top off in front of a bunch of people (because of his amazing manly man “power” over women). Which I also didn’t really care about, because, being a dyke, the whole concept of having a “reputation” to lose seemed really stupid, anyway.
The whole thing just seemed impossibly dumb. Kind of like this guy.
In his world he’s not interested in women who won’t have sex with him, and he says almost outright that the more of his time they take the less likely they are to have sex with him. In other words–the more they know him the less likely they are to put out.
It’s pretty amazing how these guys manage to expose their entire web of insecurities to the world without ever realizing it.
when forced out of my comfort zone i respond by either yelling or crying, often both. pity the asshole who tries this guys advice on me.
I found that unless I force a decision upon the woman, I learn nothing about her.
I imagine what he mostly learns about women is that 999 out of 1000 women tell jerks like him to fuck off and die.
Really, he’s just another clueless creep dressing up his social ineptitude and garden-variety misogyny with the language of the self-help industry.
Is he a shmuck or an asshole, or both? Oh, I’m so confuuuuuused.
Merc, you’ve persuaded me: “Wanna fuck?” is actually better because more honest.
And whipping out a wrapped condom’s downright elegant, since it shows both intent and honorable concern.
How about a wrapped condom rolled and stuck on an artificial rrose stem? That displays directness, consideration and playfulness, with just a dab of romance.
We could b on to something here.
I’m afraid my response would be to laugh my ass off loudly and embarass the poor schmuck… oh please; GET OVER YOURSELF, CLOWN!
Next.
Like I said in the email with this link, I still don’t know if the guy’s a simple misogynist or some kind of soulless businessman automaton who must get “The Win” no matter what the endeavor is in. I’ve met guys like this, and they’re often just as abusive and using of men as they are of women.
Of course, maybe I’m giving him too much credit for being deeper than a shallow puddle.
Man, if this guy ever walked up to me I’d laugh in his face! Thank goodness I’m not young enough and thin enough for him to pick up.
::whew::
In this day and age, having sex with someone could have far fewer longterm sequelae than letting them have your phone number…
I think Amanda’s comment about whom creeps like this are victimizing isn’t quite on — in addition to the insecure guys who take him as a model, there are probably at least a few women who end up having sex with someone rather less pleasant than they were looking for…
Guys like this leave me untroubled on a purely personal level, as they pass through my life without leaving the slightest impression–they act as he describes, I get bored, they go away. we’re both happy in our very separate ways.
However, I do know women that fall for this crap for all the wrong reasons…the biggest wrong reason being that they can’t believe anybody could REALLY be that big of an asshole, that there really AREN’T men out there that view you as a walking vaginal opening, that’s just a scary fairy story Mom told you to try to make you behave! It’s an unpleasant way to learn that yep, those kind of men are out there, usually good-looking (or let’s face it, it wouldn’t work at all for them–oddly enough they never seem to realize that, they appear to think that it’s their “line” that’s so attractive to women. LOL).
That is one sad, wounded little man.
Ooh, score, Amanda! This is it. Did you ever see “In The Company of Men”? You just summarized it.
i’ve actually had this happn to me more than once. i usually say, ‘oh, i don’t have a cellphone.’
‘well then what’s your home/landline number?’
‘i don’t have one of those, either. i live in complete technologically desolate state.’
they know that this is unrealistic and they *tend* to get the hint. sometimes, i am not so lucky. so i say ‘give me your phone number in case i happen to come across a phone,’ hahahaha.
of course, you could also just give the guy a Rejection Hotline phone number. ;D
Isn’t he famous in the US? If he walks up to a woman and asks for her number, would she recognize him? This would make his cold call approach a little less creepy. Women would know what to expect, more or less (”shallow, experienced, not a known rapist”, or whatever.)
Not that I’m defending him. But he might base his theories on mistaken premises. If the guy cold-calling a woman is famous and hot, she might choose to be… what was the word? Open-minded*?
*…the entire article is one BIG euphemism. He wants to maintain his integrity by honoring what he wants. He will not let her manipulate him with her agenda. And in the very next paragraph he says “a man needs a goal when he spends time with a woman”. Synonym for goal beginning with “a”, six letters…?
The way he talks, you’d think he regards dating as a business deal and women as opponents. Still - it’s better than those “nice guys” hiding all this behind a caring, listening facade that crumbles to dust as soon as you poke a finger against it.
I wonder if we can start a “generic asshole” Bingo card. I have neither time nor inclination to nitpick the whole article, but he begins with:
“An analogy: having run a small business in my twenties…”
‘Ahm a bidnessman!’ Check…
Then ends with:
“…a decidedly contrarian approach!”
Which is a twofer–A) ‘I disagree with everyone sane or respectable you’ve ever heard of, therefore heed my words!’
And B)–nowadays at any rate hardly anyone who claims to be a “contrarian” is actually “contrary” to conventional wisdom, rather only to well-founded rational critiques of same.
So, faux-edgy and totally safe, in one obnoxious package.
Like, we’re supposed to believe that “guys want just One Thing but girls want Commitment and to Use Guys while Not Putting Out” is some unheard-of new revelation?
sigh. I’d like to believe that the whole “reaction is the new radical chic” day came and went in the early ’80s, but here we are, 2008 and we have Ron Paul and IWF and this dude.
Bingo, with a caveat: I would change the last bit to “the real issues”. One of these key issues is that we still live in a culture so fucked up as to its dating principles that the vast, vast majority of men are expected to make the first move by the vast, vast majority of women. Fact is, most guys — whether feminists, egalitarians or troglodytes — live in a world with a yin and yang balance of certainty and uncertainty: they are certain (and correct) to assume that if they don’t make the first “move” then no moves will be made. Sad, unfair and sexist, but true. The uncertainty is that they don’t know how to do it. That uncertainty (”give me an answer, ANY answer!”) is what allows talking toilet toys like this fellow to always have an audience.I know that things like this have been canvassed on Pandagon before, and I remember well the rebuttals from the writers here: “well, I asked MY boyfriend/husband/lover out” (and variants thereon). That, I’m afraid, goes into the “big deal, you’re part of the tiny minority” category. I’m sure that this sleazoid has a quite a number of conquests of women who would much rather have slept with somebody far less skanky and self-centered but didn’t actually ask the preferable fellow in question. And no, this is not a Nice Guy(TM) rant, it is merely noting that our dating culture is seriously out of fucking (ahem) whack. I’m sure that pretty much most of us here has or has had at least one dynamic, feminist female friend who was horrified by the notion that she would be the one to ask the guy out.; that dated expectation has a deathgrip on our dating culture.
It is, I suspect, one of the reasons why online meeting and dating services are popular: they allow women to make the first move in a way that is personally and societally and culturally acceptable and safe for them to do so. That having been said, however, it seems sad-to-pathetic to let things lie as they are in the real, “I can actually see and talk to the person” world.
The Happy Feminist had a great post on it some years back.
I love how he claims a date where you just walk around and talk after eating at a nice restaurant isn’t memorable. And that’s why he has to have his “goal” and his “agenda” in mind–so the date doesn’t go off the rails into wasted time talking.
Instead of fucking.
Because he gets to know women better (and they get to know him better) if they just come back to his place.
Not by talking to them. Or listening to them. No, that’s not how you find out about people. Or rather, that’s how you find out about people, but it tells you nothing about their abilities as a sperm receptacle.
aimai is dead on. The more women find out about him, the less they want to fuck him. He’s got to score right out of the box, or it’s not going to happen. He ends up with needy women who are hurt by his behavior but reinforce his belief that women’s agenda are to hook a man.
The ones who are confident and really just out for fun don’t give him the time of day.
‘Isn’t he famous in the US? If he walks up to a woman and asks for her number, would she recognize him? This would make his cold call approach a little less creepy. Women would know what to expect, more or less (”shallow, experienced, not a known rapist”, or whatever.)’
Well, I’ve heard from people who knew LeBron James well personally that his approach frequently was simply, seriously, “I’m LeBron James, wanna fuck?” I’m not that surprised by this given everything else I’ve heard about him from people who know him well (although I met him once after a game and he seemed normal enough, even if it was just a facade.) Don’t know if he even really does this still now that he’s settled down with two children (who knows how much of an open relationship this is, though.) In terms of google hits, I could only get 14000 hits from Paul Janka and 4 million+ from LeBron, so I’m not sure if the former can even be called THAT famous to a random person on the street.
ace, I would imagine that celebrity is a different category entirely. Whether or not it is easier for male celebrities than female celebrities is another matter.
It is not hilarious, and that the Today show has it is also sad. What a wasteland!
I can’t relate to his article. I wonder if he thinks his mom’s a slut that his dad managed to boff one day. I’ve never met any women in the Eevul Golddigger category, myself. In fact the one time I treated a woman I had just met to an elaborate evening, she rushed to balance the books the next time we went out.
I do know that there are women who want to have no strings attached sex. Perhaps his “conquests” are simply women who wanted to have a one night stand, secure in the knowledge they could never develop feelings for a butthole like him.
This is,of course, couched in terms of a conquest or a sale. It can’t possibly be framed as a method of discovery. He can’t see it as a simply way to determine if a woman is on the same page or interested in an NSA encounter with an intimate stranger.
No way. That would be the least bit about HER and him, not just about “will she give me what I want”.
Isn’t he famous in the US?
FWIW, I’d never heard of him before. Now that I have and seen his picture, I must say that the man is butt ugly and I wouldn’t sleep with him even if he did have a decent pick up line and a condom. Sorry to be shallow, but really that man is massively unattractive.
@ ace and Dianne: I see, thanks. He was mentioned here before (I think?) and I got the impression that he was well-known.
One of these key issues is that we still live in a culture so fucked up as to its dating principles that the vast, vast majority of men are expected to make the first move by the vast, vast majority of women.
You’re leaving out a key part of the equation: the vast, vast majority of men won’t go out with a woman who asks them first. It means she’s desperate and can’t get a date, so why should he be the sucker who goes out with her?
There are about as many shy guys who would welcome a woman asking them out as there are bold women who are comfortable asking men out. Everyone else knows how the game is played and — more importantly — what the penalties are for stepping outside one’s appointed role. Your confident female friend knows that if she asks the guy out, he’ll turn her down, because she’s just proved that she’s so desperate that she’s willing to ask him out instead of waiting for him to ask.
It’s not right, but that’s how the game is played and viewed from both sides.
mnemosyne, you may be right. I don’t think you are, but you may be.
My own experience with my few shy friends is not that they will say no, but rather that they’re delighted to be asked but have no clue as how to handle it. Neither the culture nor their own experience gives them any clue as to avoid that deer in the headlights moment.
My own experience with my few shy friends is not that they will say no, but rather that they’re delighted to be asked but have no clue as how to handle it. Neither the culture nor their own experience gives them any clue as to avoid that deer in the headlights moment.
Sorry, I may not have been clear: it’s not the shy guys who are the problem. Most of them will happily accept if a woman steps up and makes the first move. Heck, I once grabbed a guy by the face to get our first kiss out of the way because he was too shy to make the first move, and it must have worked because he married me.
The problem is the regular guys who are used to making the first move. As far as they’re concerned, if they haven’t made the first move, you should have taken the hint that they weren’t interested in you, and you’ll only humiliate yourself if you ask. And those guys, I think, are the majority, not the shy guys.
And just in case we failed to pick this up the rule from our peers, there’s always that Oprah book and the accompanying movie to make sure we know it.
Although I think your point is a good one too, seeker. It’s just that it’s one of those things that cuts both ways.
And while maybe I’d feel differently if I was on the other side of the fence, I’d rather be in the position of braving frequent rejections than be in the position of only getting to accept or reject. (And I’m rather shy myself.) In no small part because never being asked is most definitely rejection as well.
For what it’s worth (and I don’t think I’m alone here), before I really had a coherent view of feminism and all, it seemed pretty clear to me (oddly, Warner Brothers cartoons served as a big example) that few things were supposed to horrify/disgust men more in the realm of romance than being approached by women they found unattractive. And to further complicate things, if you’ll recall, in a recent thread several women expressed being found attractive by some and unattractive by others, without really knowing beforehand (not that they cared in all circumstances) which it would be. (Then you have the glib idea that women can just get laid whenever they want and you’ve got a fun package deal.)
With all due respect, mrniceguy, I too would like to put in a word (if that’s the phrase) for “Wanna fuck?” Here’s why.
When a man says “wanna fuck” he means: “Let’s go back to my place and have uncomplicated biological sex, after which we’ll probably never see each other again, which is fine.”
Whereas when a man demands that you hand over your phone number within the first 10 seconds (!) and then bang him silly into the bargain, what he means is: “Let’s go back to my place and have uncomplicated biological sex, after which I will have information which will enable me to trace you, to harass you, to find out what you do and who you do it with, to find out where you live, to find out where you work–which will, in other words, enable me to render your life in general a misery, should I so choose. You, OTOH, will have no such equivalent goods on me.”
See what I mean?
seeker said:
“mnemosyne, you may be right. I don’t think you are, but you may be.”
Why would s/he start now? Since she totally contradicts herself in the next post? OHhhhh, clarification, riiiiigghhht.
FWIW, I think seeker6079 was dead was dead on with his/her post of 9:45. IMO rare indeed is the person who will turn down the invitation of those they find attractive. If one IS turned down, perhaps its because one is not appealing to the invitee.
All this reminds me of the David Cross routine in which he describes the inner motivation of the guy in a garbage truck following a beautiful woman down the street.
“Sure, I may get rejected by 99 out of 100 women. But that 100th women, well, she might just like to fuck on a pile of garbage.”
100th woman. Not women.
Eric,
First of all, just an overall wtf?
I’d ask “what, did you get burned by mnemosyne at some point or something?” Except that you seem to not know she a woman, which would suggest that you haven’t interacted with her much.
“If one IS turned down, perhaps its because one is not appealing to the invitee.”
Which would be, after all, the theory proposed by mneymosyne, me, Oprah, Greg Behrendt, Liz Tuccillo, and most people I know that actually participate in the dating scene. You just seem to skipping over two important facts:
1) Attractiveness is not just about looks.
Behrendt, Tuccillo, Oprah, and several of my co-wprkers would argue that men just don’t find women who do the asking attractive. I (and I’m guessing mneymosyne) would argue that - for women - doing the asking means stepping outside of gender conventions, and a lot of guys are scared by that or don’t find it attractive because it suggests a differentness form the norm that is uncomfortable to them.
As seeker starts to get at, the corollary is often claimed to be true as well - that women don’t find men who are too shy to do the asking to be attractive. Which, again, is bullshit in the absolute sense, but often true for circumstantial reasons.
2) Whenever men say something along the lines of “but I’d love that!” in reaction the feminist/female complaints about everything ranging from harassment to doing the asking, they are always supposing it’s someone that they would want to say yes to, and rarely putting themselves in the position of mostly being asked by people that range from “not interested” to “you creep me out.”
I’m starting to think I accidentally killed Eric’s puppy or something, ‘cause he sure hates everything I say.
Seeker and mnem, I think there’s another middle ground point to be made—for a lot of men, when they’re asked to imagine a generic woman doing X, Y, or Z, they insert their fantasy of the perfect woman. So if you ask a guy, “Would you like it if women asked you out more?” they imagine Jennifer Aniston and Traci Lords double-team hitting on them one night. But if the experience of being the asked-out person is anything like a woman’s, that means you have the uncomfortable job of shooting down 9 out of 10 applicants. Imagining a stream of women you don’t find attractive aggressively pursuing you and then acting hurt (or worse, angry) when you try to let them down gently is a lot less pleasant.
That mental tendency is not exclusive to men or to sex, to make it clear. All people tend to imagine idealized situations when called upon to think of a hypothetical. Like if I asked you to imagine eating, odds are you’re going to think immediately of something you really enjoy eating.
Of course. Because that means it was really their idea in the first place, only they didn’t even have to bother to make a move, you know, kinda like having a girlfriend who notices your beer is empty and brings you a new one without your asking…
(I think that for most straight men being sexual prey objects is terrifying because at some level they’re aware of how they behave toward women they consider prey, and for most of the rest because it’s just too outside their cultural understanding. The few times it happened to me, it was pretty unnerving, both in fact and in terms of imagining that as a constant background.)
annejumps - January 1, 2008 at 2:53 pm
Yep, very very true.
I think we can all take as a given that we want to be asked by people we want to say yes to, and do not want to be asked by people we would say no to. It is probably fibbing on the grand scale to indicate otherwise. It is also probably true that if rejected, we want to handle it well, and if rejecting we want the rejectee to act without rancor.
I just can’t shake the gut feeling, though, that if women (spoken in the “stuck in the patriarchy majority” use of the word we have used here) continue to leave the approaches almost entirely to men then they are acquiescing in the continuance of such a sterile, demeaning “play and win the prize (me)!” dynamic; it perpetuates a stupid, lopsided process which is fertile ground for ensuring the snarling, entitled assholes continue to play such vigorous role in the field. Why wouldn’t they? It’s a reactionary game so we why are we surprised that such entitled assholes are eager to play?
As for those advocating “wanna fuck?” as an introductory line, I strongly recommend committing yourself to lifelong celibacy before trying it at all. Cut out the middle man!
Agreed, seeker, but I do think that men who swear up and down they want women to approach them may not find that it’s as great as they want.
It’s also a cause and effect thing. Women would probably do more approaching if we were more equal. As it is, the right to introduce yourself always goes to the socially superior individual. That’s basic etiquette, and in order for women to behave like the equals of men, we will have to be the equals of men. Granted, it’s more complex in some situations, but the rule of thumb is the person with a greater social station sets the parameters the interaction. In dating, where people have a uniquely strong right to reject for any reason, the easiest way to keep men’s power and station is to let them do all the pursuing.
I’m sorry, Amanda, but it upsets me when you approach me to give me your opinion.
(Wipes fevered, nervous brow.)
Now, where were we? Ah yes.
You may be quite right, but being a progressive is all about breaking archaic rules of thumb. (According to conservatives it’s also about our breaking actual thumbs, but presumably they mean after the Great Unisex Socialist Leveling Revolution Against Talent and Prosperity.)Bad jokes aside, it all boils down to an area where you and I are in complete agreement: “the easiest way to keep men’s power and station is to let them do all the pursuing.” And the easiest way for women to undermine that power is to start to do the pursuing themselves, too. I would also extend it to class as well, doing ones best to set the parameters of the interaction even with one’s so-called social superiors.
What I would love to hear is from some lesbian posters here about how these antiquated notions make their way into a purely female dating environment.
First of all (peacekeeping statement), seeker6079, I know what you mean.
But second, speaking out of cutting things out—if I say that I’d rather lose both tonsils than both kidneys, I’m not advocating for tonsillectomies in the absolute sense, only in the relative sense. I’m not saying that I want to do without my tonsils, I’m only saying that I can function better without my tonsils than without my kidneys. That’s all.
[smiley face]
Wanna fuck? seems to work fine on Craigslist. Just saying.
Okay, now I’m positively terrified. When somebody whose name ends in “bot” starts talking about removing body parts of her own, how long can it be before she realizes that it’s more fun to be an evil bot removing other people’s?
Eeeeeeek!
Even being asked by someone you want (abstractly) to ask you can be fairly unpleasant unless you’ve let them know you want to be asked.
It’s kind of analogous to media, when you think about it. Supposedly media’s customers are their viewers, and their product is their delicious programming. But the viewers are really their product, and their real customers are the advertisers. Kinda-likewise, supposedly the pick-up artist’s product is supposedly their magical pick-up techniques, but really they’re selling snake oil to the insecure–they’re selling confidence.
I wonder how many pay phone numbers he’s collected with this method….or how many women who run the same game on men like him are snickering whenever he appears anywhere.
Granted, it’s more complex in some situations, but the rule of thumb is the person with a greater social station sets the parameters the interaction. In dating, where people have a uniquely strong right to reject for any reason, the easiest way to keep men’s power and station is to let them do all the pursuing.
Maybe that is why I don’t fit in. My inclination in this specific type of instance (if I’m the one with the “greater social station”) is to make it clear that I’m interested, but I want the “less powerful” to then set the parameters.
If an average woman went around a bar suggesting “wanna fuck?”, do you think the first nine men would all decline? I think men are generally less selective than women, at least about casual relationships, and a substantial number of men aren’t very selective at all (though they try not to admit it).Yes, E, I’m aware a lot of men have self-congratulatory self-images where they are flexible and open-minded (unlike those despised women) and also very open to the idea of getting the only women are good for (sex) without having to tolerate a woman’s unbearable company. Interestingly, misogynists are men so deeply invested in social norms that I suspect they’d end up being the ones so thrown by a woman who behaved out of expectations that they’d run away, regardless of pre-existing self-fluffery.
(Caveat: this is about general dating, and not the infinitely more fun “wanna fuck?” portion of this thread.)
Pretty much all people have trouble with unfamiliar situations, especially when those situations are in direct contradiction to our experience, and trebly so when those situations are contrary not only to our experience but also to our expectations. The average male expects to be approached by a woman about as often as he expects to be run over by an ice cream truck. Sure, he knows that such things happen. Sure, he may have even heard of such things happening. But he doesn’t expect it to happen to him. One doesn’t have to be a misogynist to be stunned and clueless when such an unexpected thing happens. (Shrugs.) The silly reality is that most men will go through their lives with it never happening to them. And if they err the first time it is rather unlikely that it will happen another time.
Or (he says, hoping against hope) have things changed since my own serious dating days over a decade and a half ago?
I think much of this discussion makes a lot of sense. One point though. Pickup Artists, and there are a huge variety nowadays, often DO help men get to their real self confidence and shyness issues. In order to do that, they often give them various steps and procedures that they can think about when interacting with women in order to take their mind away from all of their insecurities. These procedures are often ones that have proven to “work” in the past. As far as I know, most pickup methods emphasize developing your own “style” and personality as the ultimate tool to get the girl. The problem is that most of the guys are clueless as to the social norms that would facilitate portraying their personalities in a positive light.
To be honest, I don’t know enough about the guy in the article to label him a creep. He very well may be, but what I read from it is that he thinks relationships are complicated and difficult to develop. He wants to have sex with women he meets as soon as possible and doesn’t want to spend money on them to do so. So interacts in a bolder way than is common. If a woman’s agenda was originally not to have sex, and his bold actions changed that agenda, then he has accomplished his goal. Now, if he has in any way shape or form been coercive, we have an abundance of problems with his behavior not least of which might be legal. But what he seems to be emphasizing is that his first goal is sex, and if something develops later, great. If not, he will continue to try to have sex with other women.
Additionally, although he probably won’t agree with much of what I say, I pretty much agree with Seeker on most of what he has been saying.
The thing is, when women approach men, men seem to assume that those women are looking for an actual relationship. When I’ve approached men, these are the most common reactions: a look of panic (Oh crap, she’s interested in me. How do I let her down easy?) or a mocking/insulting attitude (Who does she think she is?). Now, it could be that I’m so hideous that these guys can’t even stand the thought of having a one night stand with me, it could be that those guys assume that I’m looking for an actual relationship (but aren’t into me enough for that), or it could be that men are in actual fact very selective, whether for a casual encounter or a long-term relationship.
Erika:
Have you tried singing Beautiful South’s “Don’t Marry Her, Fuck Me” as you do it?