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	<title>Comments on: Abortion by Chanel</title>
	<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/12/26/6485/</link>
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	<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 22:30:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Nancy</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/12/26/6485/#comment-477175</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Dec 2007 11:30:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/12/26/6485/#comment-477175</guid>
					<description>We've made progress with dx! He/she said &quot;OK, maybe they’re (IWF)  not feminists,&quot;

But you know what that means now, logically, don't you dx? It means you STILL have not given us examples of right-wing feminists.

So once again, it's time to put up or STFU.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>We&#8217;ve made progress with dx! He/she said &#8220;OK, maybe they’re (IWF)  not feminists,&#8221;</p>
	<p>But you know what that means now, logically, don&#8217;t you dx? It means you STILL have not given us examples of right-wing feminists.</p>
	<p>So once again, it&#8217;s time to put up or STFU.
</p>
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		<title>by: MikeEss</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/12/26/6485/#comment-477166</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Dec 2007 10:09:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/12/26/6485/#comment-477166</guid>
					<description>dnx, perhaps you should spend a day or two (or maybe a year or two) reading through the &lt;a href=&quot;http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Feminism 101&lt;/a&gt; blog.  

Get yourself a good grounding in actual feminist philosophy, and the fact the wingnut &quot;feminists&quot; are not actually feminists will be self-evident.  

Then we will be able to move past your lack of understanding and get on with a more interesting discussion...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>dnx, perhaps you should spend a day or two (or maybe a year or two) reading through the <a href="http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/" rel="nofollow">Feminism 101</a> blog.  </p>
	<p>Get yourself a good grounding in actual feminist philosophy, and the fact the wingnut &#8220;feminists&#8221; are not actually feminists will be self-evident.  </p>
	<p>Then we will be able to move past your lack of understanding and get on with a more interesting discussion&#8230;
</p>
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		<title>by: dnx-x1</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/12/26/6485/#comment-477163</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Dec 2007 09:54:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/12/26/6485/#comment-477163</guid>
					<description>I thought the definition of feminism was: ''political, economical, and social equality of the sexes.''

That's what they want, and I've had a looked at some of their articles. I found no reason to believe they were lying. OK, maybe they're not feminists, but are they more or less feminist than people like Valarie Solanas, Andrea Dworkin, Robin Morgan, Ti-Grace, etc.?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I thought the definition of feminism was: &#8216;&#8217;political, economical, and social equality of the sexes.'&#8217;</p>
	<p>That&#8217;s what they want, and I&#8217;ve had a looked at some of their articles. I found no reason to believe they were lying. OK, maybe they&#8217;re not feminists, but are they more or less feminist than people like Valarie Solanas, Andrea Dworkin, Robin Morgan, Ti-Grace, etc.?
</p>
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		<title>by: Nancy</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/12/26/6485/#comment-477071</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Dec 2007 16:56:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/12/26/6485/#comment-477071</guid>
					<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Why in the world do you feel the need to justify the use of “Fagin-like” in reference to loan-sharking?) &lt;/blockquote&gt;

I've never heard that term used, in any context. But it's possible to think the character is bad, but not bad based because Jewish. Dickens wasn't trying to be anti-Semitic when he wrote the character, and regretted that some people thought he was.

There's no comparison between Fagin-like and &quot;welfare queen.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<blockquote><p>Why in the world do you feel the need to justify the use of “Fagin-like” in reference to loan-sharking?) </p></blockquote>
	<p>I&#8217;ve never heard that term used, in any context. But it&#8217;s possible to think the character is bad, but not bad based because Jewish. Dickens wasn&#8217;t trying to be anti-Semitic when he wrote the character, and regretted that some people thought he was.</p>
	<p>There&#8217;s no comparison between Fagin-like and &#8220;welfare queen.&#8221;
</p>
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		<title>by: Nancy</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/12/26/6485/#comment-477060</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Dec 2007 16:02:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/12/26/6485/#comment-477060</guid>
					<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Wow… Lil’ Nancy is losing her temper, isn’t she?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Well after all, the x1 series of dnx units are not know for their ability to correctly identify human emotions.

Independent Women's Forum is not feminist. No matter how much they call themselves &quot;i feminists&quot; 

But I suppose if you tell a dnx-x1 that you ARE a feminist, it will simply take your word for it, no matter how much you actually hate real feminists or really, women in general.

Clearly the rules of human discourse are much trickier than AI experts anticipated. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<blockquote><p>Wow… Lil’ Nancy is losing her temper, isn’t she?</p></blockquote>
	<p>Well after all, the x1 series of dnx units are not know for their ability to correctly identify human emotions.</p>
	<p>Independent Women&#8217;s Forum is not feminist. No matter how much they call themselves &#8220;i feminists&#8221; </p>
	<p>But I suppose if you tell a dnx-x1 that you ARE a feminist, it will simply take your word for it, no matter how much you actually hate real feminists or really, women in general.</p>
	<p>Clearly the rules of human discourse are much trickier than AI experts anticipated.
</p>
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		<title>by: Nancy</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/12/26/6485/#comment-477057</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Dec 2007 15:55:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/12/26/6485/#comment-477057</guid>
					<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Why in the world do you feel the need to justify the use of “Fagin-like” in reference to loan-sharking?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It isn't necessary to justify it because hardly anybody uses it.

And if they did, they are not necessarily referring to the character's Jewishness. There is no comparison between literary references to evil characters who happen to be Jewish and the term &quot;welfare queen.&quot;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<blockquote><p>Why in the world do you feel the need to justify the use of “Fagin-like” in reference to loan-sharking?</p></blockquote>
	<p>It isn&#8217;t necessary to justify it because hardly anybody uses it.</p>
	<p>And if they did, they are not necessarily referring to the character&#8217;s Jewishness. There is no comparison between literary references to evil characters who happen to be Jewish and the term &#8220;welfare queen.&#8221;
</p>
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		<title>by: dnx-x1</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/12/26/6485/#comment-476969</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Dec 2007 09:44:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/12/26/6485/#comment-476969</guid>
					<description>Wow... Lil' Nancy is losing her temper, isn't she?

Anyway, I'm an extremist anti-gender feminist, not an anti-&lt;i&gt;equity&lt;/i&gt; feminist, but since it seems mainstream feminism is now gender feminism, I guess you could say I am against feminism. As for some of the posts on my blog (&lt;i&gt;Feminist Gamers Get Owned, Cry&lt;/i&gt;), I just made it for the lulz. The other anti-feminist post I have is &lt;i&gt;The Sweet Pink Rules of Feminism&lt;/i&gt;&lt;i&gt;. I posted it because I thought it was really funny, and not too far from the truth. In fact, a few equity feminists have agreed with me that this is the sad state mainstream feminism is in. (The Feministing.com post isn't anti-feminist, but anti-feministing.com.)

You want me to name right-wing feminists? Fair enough. Well, I name everyone at the Independent Women's Forum, since according to a few feminist websites, they are Right-Wingers, yet want equality of the sexes. What is your definition of equality? Because quite a many Leftist feminists are against equality. See: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/education/article2419363.ece

So...STFU...I guess? Lol.&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Wow&#8230; Lil&#8217; Nancy is losing her temper, isn&#8217;t she?</p>
	<p>Anyway, I&#8217;m an extremist anti-gender feminist, not an anti-<i>equity</i> feminist, but since it seems mainstream feminism is now gender feminism, I guess you could say I am against feminism. As for some of the posts on my blog (<i>Feminist Gamers Get Owned, Cry</i>), I just made it for the lulz. The other anti-feminist post I have is <i>The Sweet Pink Rules of Feminism</i><i>. I posted it because I thought it was really funny, and not too far from the truth. In fact, a few equity feminists have agreed with me that this is the sad state mainstream feminism is in. (The Feministing.com post isn&#8217;t anti-feminist, but anti-feministing.com.)</p>
	<p>You want me to name right-wing feminists? Fair enough. Well, I name everyone at the Independent Women&#8217;s Forum, since according to a few feminist websites, they are Right-Wingers, yet want equality of the sexes. What is your definition of equality? Because quite a many Leftist feminists are against equality. See: <a href='http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/education/article2419363.ece' rel='nofollow'>http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/education/article2419363.ece</a></p>
	<p>So&#8230;STFU&#8230;I guess? Lol.</i>
</p>
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		<title>by: TR</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/12/26/6485/#comment-476913</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Dec 2007 00:18:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/12/26/6485/#comment-476913</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;But since precious few people are conversant enough with literature to even know the difference between Shylock and Fagin - and even know they’re both Jews - I wouldn’t let any random references to Fagin worry your libertarian head.&lt;/i&gt;

Where the fuck are you getting &quot;libertarian&quot; from?  I'm not one at all, and consider it an insult to be called one.

I also don't understand why you'd assume I'm affiliated with Atomic Fruitbat.  Certainly, I understand not wanting to read every comment on a blog carefully, but if I decide to try to call out people, I go back to make sure what they really said.  If I'm reading Atomic Fruitbat's first comments correctly, it looks like ze's trying to make the post's complaint seem ridiculous by claiming it would be the same as linking rhetoric against &quot;fat cats&quot; and multinational corporations to anti-semitic rhetoric, which ze finds ridiculous.  People then responding by trying to point out there was no way to link anti-fat-cat/anti-multinational-corporation rhetoric to anti-semitic rhetoric.  I, on the other hand, agreed with the post that anti-liberal/anti-feminist rhetoric can parallel anti-semitic rhetoric *and* argued that anti-fat-cat/anti-multinational-corporation rhetoric (and anti-neocon rhetoric) can parallel anti-semitic rhetoric.  Believe it or not, I can disagree with Atomic Fruitbat even while disagreeing with people who disagreed with hir.

Also, you'll notice that nowhere did I say that fat cats, multinational corporations, and neocons should not be criticized--in fact, I said they should be condemned.  I simply pointed out that the way some people choose to condemn those things replicates and reinforces anti-semitic tropes, and that there are other, better ways to go about that criticism.  (It's not so different from the way I'll protest the way some feminists, in moments of anger, will call actively anti-feminist women bitches or cunts.  I'm all for condemning anti-feminists, just not with certain kinds of rhetoric.) 

Finally, you should be aware that your smug little &quot;most people are ignorant about what the slur really means, so no one should worry about the use of that slur&quot; is what people  say to defend any slur that didn't happen to ping them personally as offensive.  In actual fact, ignorance does not tend to be good protection against bigotry.  It just helps bigotry be more insidious, as well as helps fuel the perception that the people who are sensitive to the bigotry because they know it intimately from historical and continuing oppression are &quot;just overreacting.&quot;  (Honestly, you think that would be comforting to someone worried about anti-semitism?  To say, &quot;Well, look, they probably just confused the crimes of one loathsome Jew with the crimes of another loathsome Jew [which is understandable, right, since they're both just loathsome Jews], and they just decided to repeat that to characterize real-life loathsome behavior, and who really thinks about the Jews enough to notice that kind of thing?&quot;  Why in the world do you feel the need to justify the use of &quot;Fagin-like&quot; in reference to loan-sharking?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>But since precious few people are conversant enough with literature to even know the difference between Shylock and Fagin - and even know they’re both Jews - I wouldn’t let any random references to Fagin worry your libertarian head.</i></p>
	<p>Where the fuck are you getting &#8220;libertarian&#8221; from?  I&#8217;m not one at all, and consider it an insult to be called one.</p>
	<p>I also don&#8217;t understand why you&#8217;d assume I&#8217;m affiliated with Atomic Fruitbat.  Certainly, I understand not wanting to read every comment on a blog carefully, but if I decide to try to call out people, I go back to make sure what they really said.  If I&#8217;m reading Atomic Fruitbat&#8217;s first comments correctly, it looks like ze&#8217;s trying to make the post&#8217;s complaint seem ridiculous by claiming it would be the same as linking rhetoric against &#8220;fat cats&#8221; and multinational corporations to anti-semitic rhetoric, which ze finds ridiculous.  People then responding by trying to point out there was no way to link anti-fat-cat/anti-multinational-corporation rhetoric to anti-semitic rhetoric.  I, on the other hand, agreed with the post that anti-liberal/anti-feminist rhetoric can parallel anti-semitic rhetoric *and* argued that anti-fat-cat/anti-multinational-corporation rhetoric (and anti-neocon rhetoric) can parallel anti-semitic rhetoric.  Believe it or not, I can disagree with Atomic Fruitbat even while disagreeing with people who disagreed with hir.</p>
	<p>Also, you&#8217;ll notice that nowhere did I say that fat cats, multinational corporations, and neocons should not be criticized&#8211;in fact, I said they should be condemned.  I simply pointed out that the way some people choose to condemn those things replicates and reinforces anti-semitic tropes, and that there are other, better ways to go about that criticism.  (It&#8217;s not so different from the way I&#8217;ll protest the way some feminists, in moments of anger, will call actively anti-feminist women bitches or cunts.  I&#8217;m all for condemning anti-feminists, just not with certain kinds of rhetoric.) </p>
	<p>Finally, you should be aware that your smug little &#8220;most people are ignorant about what the slur really means, so no one should worry about the use of that slur&#8221; is what people  say to defend any slur that didn&#8217;t happen to ping them personally as offensive.  In actual fact, ignorance does not tend to be good protection against bigotry.  It just helps bigotry be more insidious, as well as helps fuel the perception that the people who are sensitive to the bigotry because they know it intimately from historical and continuing oppression are &#8220;just overreacting.&#8221;  (Honestly, you think that would be comforting to someone worried about anti-semitism?  To say, &#8220;Well, look, they probably just confused the crimes of one loathsome Jew with the crimes of another loathsome Jew [which is understandable, right, since they&#8217;re both just loathsome Jews], and they just decided to repeat that to characterize real-life loathsome behavior, and who really thinks about the Jews enough to notice that kind of thing?&#8221;  Why in the world do you feel the need to justify the use of &#8220;Fagin-like&#8221; in reference to loan-sharking?)
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		<title>by: Amanda Marcotte</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/12/26/6485/#comment-476905</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Dec 2007 00:10:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/12/26/6485/#comment-476905</guid>
					<description>Wow, interesting troll tactic.  Lame, silly, and almost the platonic ideal in disingenuous, but an interesting try.  &quot;How can people who are systematically opposed to female equality be excluded from getting to be called 'feminists'?  Waaaaaaaah!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Wow, interesting troll tactic.  Lame, silly, and almost the platonic ideal in disingenuous, but an interesting try.  &#8220;How can people who are systematically opposed to female equality be excluded from getting to be called &#8216;feminists&#8217;?  Waaaaaaaah!&#8221;
</p>
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		<title>by: Nancy</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/12/26/6485/#comment-476896</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Dec 2007 23:29:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/12/26/6485/#comment-476896</guid>
					<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
As for right-wingers being ‘’fake feminists'’, please clarify; how are they not real feminists?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;In case you ladies are wondering, I’m a centrist, and syncretic.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Just as you CAN'T name any right-wing feminists, you also don't seem to understand that &quot;centrist&quot; does not equal raging obsessively anti-feminist extremist, as made plain by your site.

Name a right-wing feminist or STFU.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<blockquote><p>
As for right-wingers being ‘’fake feminists&#8217;’, please clarify; how are they not real feminists?</p></blockquote>
	<blockquote><p>In case you ladies are wondering, I’m a centrist, and syncretic.
</p></blockquote>
	<p>Just as you CAN&#8217;T name any right-wing feminists, you also don&#8217;t seem to understand that &#8220;centrist&#8221; does not equal raging obsessively anti-feminist extremist, as made plain by your site.</p>
	<p>Name a right-wing feminist or STFU.
</p>
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