Roxanne alerted me to this horrific news story, which is outside the yuk-it-up-powers of mere mortals like me.
A Houston, Texas woman says she was gang-raped by Halliburton/KBR coworkers in Baghdad, and the company and the U.S. government are covering up the incident.
Jamie Leigh Jones, now 22, says that after she was raped by multiple men at a KBR camp in the Green Zone, the company put her under guard in a shipping container with a bed and warned her that if she left Iraq for medical treatment, she’d be out of a job.
“Don’t plan on working back in Iraq. There won’t be a position here, and there won’t be a position in Houston,” Jones says she was told.
In a lawsuit filed in federal court against Halliburton and its then-subsidiary KBR, Jones says she was held in the shipping container for at least 24 hours without food or water by KBR, which posted armed security guards outside her door, who would not let her leave.
“It felt like prison,” says Jones, who told her story to ABC News as part of an upcoming “20/20″ investigation. “I was upset; I was curled up in a ball on the bed; I just could not believe what had happened.”
Finally, Jones says, she convinced a sympathetic guard to loan her a cell phone so she could call her father in Texas.
It’s that little detail that stuck out to me. I want to pick the brain of the sympathetic guard and find out why he felt that all he could do was give her a phone to use. Was he afraid of losing his job if he did more? Or was he feeling the all too common pressure not to lose the good opinion of the other men by doing something “emasculating” like treating a woman like a bona fide human being? Gang rape really brings to the surface the various masculinity pressures that men are under; I’m sure most men would like to believe they’d gallantly help a woman in this horrible situation, but how many of them could really face down the massive pressure not to turn on the brotherhood of domination?
What Roxanne said to me when she IM’d me about this is worth repeating—basically, incidents like this horrify decent human beings, but are a siren call to sadists who want to exist in a society where they can rape, kill, and torture with impunity and even get paid a bunch of money for the privilege. Which is why the Donald Rumsfeld “let’s privatize the military” plan is so deeply evil, besides of course the parts about taxpayers paying twice the money for half the services by using mercenaries instead of a standing military. The military already has accountability issues, but adding the need to protect corporate profits on top of that? You have a powder keg.
In further news about the misogynist’s heaven/everyone else’s hell that has been unleashed by this war-for-profit, Lindsay links to a news item about the fundamentalist asswipes that are using this war as an excuse to work out their sick, deep issues with women by murdering women for trespassing against a bunch of trumped-up charges that are the dictionary definition of “thin excuses”.
BAGHDAD (AP) — Religious vigilantes have killed at least 40 women this year in the southern Iraqi city of Basra because of how they dressed, their mutilated bodies found with notes warning against “violating Islamic teachings,” the police chief said Sunday….
Before the U.S.-led invasion in 2003, Basra, Iraq’s second-largest city, was known for its mixed population and night life. Now, in some areas, red graffiti threatens any woman who wears makeup and appears with her hair uncovered: “Your makeup and your decision to forgo the headscarf will bring you death.”
Khalaf said bodies have been found in garbage dumps with bullet holes, decapitated or otherwise mutilated with a sheet of paper nearby saying, “she was killed for adultery,” or “she was killed for violating Islamic teachings.” In September, the headless bodies of a woman and her 6-year-old son were among those found, he said. A total of 40 deaths were reported this year.
“We believe the number of murdered women is much higher, as cases go unreported by their families who fear reprisal from extremists,” he said.
Lipstick, adultery, make up your own bullshit excuse that implies that the crime was anything that a woman can control, when in fact the crime is being a woman.
I read about it, write about it, investigate it, and study it day in and day out, but I realize that I’ll never really understand why so many men hate women so much. I can predict it, describe it, diagnose it, whatever. But really grasp it? I just can’t. To quote Joss Whedon on this:
It’s safe to say that I’ve snapped. That something broke, like one of those robots you can conquer with a logical conundrum. All my life I’ve looked at this faulty equation, trying to understand, and I’ve shorted out. I don’t pretend to be a great guy; I know really really well about objectification, trust me. And I’m not for a second going down the “women are saints” route – that just leads to more stone-throwing (and occasional Joan-burning). I just think there is the staggering imbalance in the world that we all just take for granted. If we were all told the sky was evil, or at best a little embarrassing, and we ought not look at it, wouldn’t that tradition eventually fall apart?
Exactly. It’s like hating the sky. Or air. Of having murderous rage towards grass. Except even stupider, because men can see with their own eyes that women are human beings like themselves, and yet so many reject that with this arrogant rage. I’ll never really understand it, understand the urge to lock a woman up and abuse her for just walking around, or kill and mutilate a woman for having hair.
99 Responses to “But the war boosters will never face up to what their enthusiasm has given us”
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I know you didn’t really criticize Muslim fundamentalists, Amanda, because Danielle Crittenden says you can’t.
What’s equally amazing is that the men who loath women the most are, also, very often the most emotionally dependent on them. Or, maybe that really makes perfect sense.
That part, by the way, about the “sympathetic guard” didn’t even occur to me as strange before now. That’s the moral universe I, at least, am starting to take for granted in the world.
It only took a few moments for the bottom feeders to show up at the ABC web site to comment. A choice sampling:
When I sent my husband the link, I said “Considering there are virtually no consequences, I’m surprised that Halliburton’s not shipping in ‘Comfort Women’ by the truckload.”
Then I thought about it and said “…then again, for all we know, they are and we just haven’t heard about it yet.”
Hopefully this one woman coming forward will encourage others to do the same, because you know this probably isn’t a first over there. Like Tailhook maybe it will result in real reform, and hopefull Halliburton will pay bigtime.
I don’t know what reasons that guard had for not doing more sooner, but I can’t think of any reason why I wouldn’t call 911 if I witnessed something like this happening outside my home. I wouldn’t care what a bunch of strangers who ganging up on a woman thought about me for it.
If it were people I actually knew instead, maybe my first instinct wouldn’t be to have them arrested and maybe there’s something wrong with that, but I’d still ask what they hell they were doing and try to stop it, for the same reason that men usually try to break up fights that don’t involve them instead of jumping in and taking some swings themselves. And if I couldn’t break it up, THEN I’d call 911. I’d call because I’d realize that the people I thought I knew, I didn’t know at all.
You know, I’m not shocked by the rape, the murders, and the mutilations. I think I may be numb. There are evil people out there; they do horrible things to other people; and everything bad about humanity comes out to play in a war zone. I’ve got the message now. Six years on, it’s been drummed into my skull pretty good.
It was the comments that made me sick. Are these people even human? How do they function with no empathy at all?
It was the comments that made me sick. Are these people even human? How do they function with no empathy at all?
They have empathy, just to people who look and believe like they do, and of course have penises.
Are these people even human? How do they function with no empathy at all?
I couldn’t do it, personally–empathy is what keeps me sane most of the time. But the world is filled with people who apparently can.
The other possibility is that they’ve been so trained to shut their empathy down that they do it subconsciously. Fundamentalist religion is really good at training people to use their empathy toward only a select group and being vicious to the other.
Perhaps he was afraid that if he offered any overt help he’d risk sexual assault himself?
The comments prove the point. i’m not one for rhetorical questions, but why do they hate women so, so much? Why do they have to put person in quotes? I’m exhausted by them.
Some days I just want to hide in my room and weep until my eyes dry out. I can’t for the life of me understand why, of all the ways this world could be, that it’s this one.
But it’s all good, folks, because The Jawa Report says that the rape report is just another evil leftist conspiracy.
Oh Christ…
Maybe in a world as bad as this some people condition themselves not to have too much empathy, because otherwise it’d just be too hard for them.
My first thought was “would they be covering it up if one of the rapist’s was relatedto Bill Clinton?”
There are so many thoughts crowding my head about this I can get no more out. Except my total disgust of the self hating woman.
Oh, indeed. I’m sure I’m not the only one who likes to think that by gum, if I were that guy, I’d act in a way that would let me see myself in the mirror without revulsion for the rest of my days. But the cold, cold fact is that ordinary men like me are placed into that situation, and in the vast majority of cases, that’s how they act. It is by definition very unlikely that I am part of an extraordinary minority.Yeah, that’s a pretty damned sobering thought. It’s right up there with the realization that it’s almost certain that some of the men who I know, work with, consider friends, are rapists.
Remember when 20/20 did an experiment where they staged a couple arguing in a park (actors), and the man started to get physically abusive? The majority of the bystanders who tried to intervene were women. Something like 11 out of 15 men just kept walking.
Even if we’re really talking about just 26.6% of men who’d stop and help, that’s not an extraordinary minority.
40 women killed? It’s like that short story “The Screwfly Solution” except this is real life.
Rob v of n - yes, 26.6% doesn’t seem that extraordinary - until you remember that this was a study where there was no cadre of other men - friends, cow-orkers, associates - trying to pressure silence. Less than 1 in 3 intervened in any way when the only guy who would think badly of them was plainly abusive. I suspect if the set-up were with stronger social pressure, even fewer guys would intervene. Probably fewer women too, to be fair. Humans are strongly social creatures, and the strongest impulse is frequently to go along with the crowd.
Hey, this is just the Zimbardo experiment extended into another area. Abu Ghraib should have tipped people off as to what people could do. The folks who are denying that this is possible are being very, very naive.
I’m sorry btw. It’s not that I question the veracity of any studies or experiments anybody’s referring to, it’s just that it’s a little bit hard to stay calm or to not go into defensive mode when I read something that says, basically, “most men would not lift a finger to help a woman being raped.”
It’s hard to accept as truth, particularly when it feels like there’s the implication that I personally would not do anything–anything at all–to help somebody if I saw her in trouble. That there’s a better than 2 in 3 chance I’d just go about my business or, worse, help the attacker. It’s hard NOT to take that personally.
My natural reaction is to say “Wait a minute, I would do something to help!” and be insulted that anybody would think otherwise, even if the person who believes it doesn’t hate me for it and says “that’s just how men are wired.”
I refuse to believe that I am wired that way because of my gender. I just refuse, I’m sorry. I’m not going to say “because I’m a man I’m likely to ignore somebody’s suffering. Oh well.” The only thing that would ever convince me otherwise would be if I were put in that situation and I chickened out.
I know this is partly OT and I don’t want to derail this, so that’s all I’ve got to say about it. Just don’t respond if you don’t want to, and talk about this poor woman, or talk about the guys who did this to her, or whatever. I’d be glad to focus on that if that’s all everybody focuses on from here on.
It really does take some bravery to do the right thing and risk getting caught. That guy who was guarding the shipping container knew what had happened, knew he was far from home, knew he was far from justice, knew he was surrounded by armed men who were willing to rape and imprison one of their own (though not enough of their own to avoid getting raped,) and knew that he was probably going to suffer for doing even a small portion of the right thing. That he did anything is remarkable. I just hope he gets through this okay.
As for the woman, I certainly hope she gets some justice. But I doubt it will happen, since the rules for contractors in Iraq are so absurd, lawless, and outside any possible oversight that any justice can only be achieved by naming her rapists and having public scorn placed upon their scummy selves. I hope she gets a nice book deal, since that’s the only money she’ll get out of her ordeal.
Nice fucking war we have there. Billions of dollars are unaccounted for and tens of thousands of people are unaccountable. But at least the surge is giving the Iraqi parliament time to work out its differences and actually govern Iraq. Unless they just decided to call a recess and go home for some time, since they knew our troops will be there damn near forever no matter what happens. Gee, which was it again? Oh yeah, the one where we’re screwed.
This whole thing is why Halliburton, KBR, Blackwater, and the rest of those mercenary companies should be banned from federal contracts forever. There also needs to be war crimes prosecutions against many of their executives and employees.
It’s terrible enough what they are doing now in Iraq. Don’t the idiots in Washington realize that those monsters eventually will be coming home.
Well, if you’re looking for lovely stories, there’s this:
“Australia has been rocked by the case of a 10-year-old indigenous girl who was gang raped in her home community, and the revelation that her nine rapists had not been given prison sentences, in part because the judge found that the victim “probably agreed” to have sex.”…“The girl involved was not forced, and she probably agreed to have sex with all of you,” Ms. Bradley said in her judgment….The child at the center of the case is developmentally disabled, having been born with foetal alcohol syndrome, and she was first sexually assaulted when she was seven years old, when she contracted syphilis.”
John - I read a summary of that story from someone else and felt sick but now there are two more details making it even worse.
a) Female judge believes that a ten year old can consent to sex with anyone, never mind nine fucking partners.
b) Someone seriously believes that a developmentally disabled child of ten can consent to sex with anyone.
There is an unproved assumption made in the initial post - that all of the KBR people involved in coercion and threats were men. It’s very possible that women were in the chain of command and part of the decision making process regarding this woman’s fate.
It is possible that women behaved just as apallingly as the men here. Pam’s post supports that possibility with the quote from the woman who says one “can’t rape the willing”.
The KBR guys left the military because they couldn’t stand the UCMJ. If anybody believes that one comment cited came from a woman, I’ll eat my hat. It’s probably a KBR guy himself.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the reason the guard only gave her access to his cell phone was because he was afraid of being killed by the other guards.
One can always claim that you “dropped” your phone.
Course, he could just be an asshole, but i really have to believe there are some extenuating circumstances. the whole thing is just horrable
I’m surprised more women in this situation don’t go on a killing spree.
It’s very possible that women were in the chain of command and part of the decision making process regarding this woman’s fate.
Good point. There are certainly plenty of women happy to go into rape denial mode in order to make themselves feel safe.
As for Kitty Genovese syndrome — it’s a part of the human condition, and to some extent everyone is going to want to move along quickly when confronted with an uncomfortable situation. It is harder to act nobly than not to act, after all.
I think, after three years of consciousness-raising and five of parenting a daughter, that I’d step in now. I don’t know as that would have been the case three or five years ago, and to be honest, I don’t know for certain I would now, and I hope to God I never find out.
It’s true that you just never know how you’re going to respond in a crisis situation until you’re in one. Sadly I know how I’d react at the site of an accident (happily it’s pretty well). When two guys knocked on my door last night at 1:20AM looking for Jimmy, I also know my response (”Where’s the nearest weapon? Hmm… not close. Might need to yell to my wife to grab one for herself and an extra for me…”).
But as for the situation of gang rape? Don’t know. I’m dead certain I wouldn’t participate. I hope I’d be able to think of something to stop it, but I won’t claim certainty that I would, never having been in that situation. Kudos to the guard for doing something, as an earlier poster pointed out he probably was taking some personal risks by even doing that much.
Peer pressure is a powerful and very dangerous thing, and we’re all (especially men) taught not to “rat people out” from a very young age.
Along a different line, is it really no surprise the lack of condemnation for punishing the gang rape victim in Saudi Arabia?
On the issue of men intervening to help a victim:
Once, in middle school I stopped a group of guys from harassing and groping this girl. I got my ass handed to me in that fight and labeled a “faggot-ass bitch” for the rest of the year. I did it not b/c I’m a great person but b/c I knew what it was like to be victimized by a culture of passive collaboration.
As a boy (late-’80s), my mother’s ex stalked and terrorized us for nearly two years. From the beginning, my mom sought help. The cops mocked her. The first two judges refused to grant her a restraining order, saying she was “hysterical” and that the violence was just a “lover’s quarrel.” This man had already tried killing my mother, sister, and myself multiple times. He had already beaten my dog to death. Still nothing! Only women helped us. They risked their damn lives providing us (and countless others) with shelter. I never forgot their bravery. I also never forgot that not one man helped us. Not one. As a boy, I hated that! It was bad enough that I felt like a failure as the Man of The House (Yes, even 6 year-olds believe they should be able to protect their moms from grown men), but to not have one man to look up to shook me.
I help others, regardless of gender, out of the hatred I hold towards those who were willing to let us die. I don’t feel good about myself, just hopeless and useless. The vast majority of my friends are women so I don’t feel the brunt of misogynistic pressure to conform, but I’m all too aware how common violent hate is amongst my male peers (My generation considers Hostel entertainment for crying out loud!). I feel as if I’m trying to stop a tsunami with a single sandbag.
It’s true that you just never know how you’re going to respond in a crisis situation until you’re in one.
The last time I was physically threatened, I was escorting a terrified young woman past her drunken, abusive boyfriend to the police. He confronted us, and I remember dropping into a karate stance and focusing completely on dropping him the moment he moved into range.
Now, here’s the thing - she didn’t realise I was concentrating on my training and planning on leaving her boyfriend on the ground with a broken arm. She thought that the reason I was not saying anything was because I was scared too.
So that girl who was literally weeping in fear five minutes before stepped in between him and me and yelled at him to back off. And then we went out to the cops leaving a very confused ex-boyfriend behind, where I gave a statement and collapsed in adrenalin after-shock.
And that’s why, even though I’m a cynical misanthrope, I occasionally think the human species may be worth something after all. Even those who’d you’d expect to have a right to be afraid can step up with extraordinary courage.
Try to remember that when you read about this sort of shit.
Akeeyu: When I sent my husband the link, I said “Considering there are virtually no consequences, I’m surprised that Halliburton’s not shipping in ‘Comfort Women’ by the truckload.”
The words “local contractors” spring to mind, much as I’d prefer them not to. That’s going to be something swept under the rug by both sides in the post-occupation accounts of the Iraqi failure…
Gang rape really brings to the surface the various masculinity pressures that men are under; I’m sure most men would like to believe they’d gallantly help a woman in this horrible situation, but how many of them could really face down the massive pressure not to turn on the brotherhood of domination?
This story brings back a bad memory, one that I haven’t really wanted to think about before, from US Navy boot camp in 1994.
We were having a class about legal issues, UCMJ, and sexual harrassment. Now, keep in mind, most of us were barely paying attention: this was a few weeks into training and most of us were pretty much exhausted, physically and psychically, all the time. We had also been constantly exhorted to work and live as a team unit, so the level of group-think was probably the highest I’ve ever seen, before or since.
The instructor described a scenario: Imagine you are at a party off-base with your shipmates. One of your shipmates is female. Everybody is drinking heavily, including her. She and another of your male shipmates, both incredibly drunk, start making out. They get naked and start humping right there in the party. She passes out. The guy continues till he’s done, then the rest of the group of your fellow sailors starts taking turns having sex with her while she’s passed out.
“Would you intervene to stop this,” he asked, “raise your hand if you would.”
I didn’t even think about it, I raised my hand right away. Not just because I thought that would be the only right thing to do, I also figured that would be the obvious “correct” answer considering the context of the class. I really expected the group (about 70 or so of us in the training company) to follow suit.
I didn’t expect to be the only one to raise my hand. I was embarassed.
The instructor called me out. Asked why I would intervene. Well, she’s one of us. She’s unconscious. It’s not right to do that to someone who can’t resist. Who hasn’t consented. Just because she was getting it on with one guy doesn’t mean she wanted to get it on with ALL the guys. I don’t think I used the word “consent” because I didn’t really understand the concept myself yet, but I knew the situation as described was Just. Flat. Wrong. You don’t treat women that way, you don’t treat friends that way, and if your other friends are the ones doing it, it’s still wrong. You’d be doing them a favor by stopping them from committing a crime. There will be trouble all around for everone if you don’t stop it. (This was 1994, and Tailhook was still pretty fresh in everyone’s mind. It was probably the only reason we were having a sexual harassment class at all.)
This was the wrong answer.
The instructor told me that she had assumed the risk of this by having gotten so drunk and then gotten sexual with the one dude. She failed to behave in a responsible manner. Anyone who drinks to the point where they don’t have control of themselves is responsible for what happens to them. Further, my attitude was completely wrong: my loyalty to her was some kind of misguided sense of protectiveness towards women and should not supercede my loyalty to the rest of my shipmates.
If my memory of this isn’t completely wrong, I’m pretty sure he even cited a case where this had actually happened, and the court-martial acquitted the guys, but charged her for something.
I was embarassed as hell. Not only had I given the wrong answer, but apparently my entire view of sexual morality was wrong. And the worst part was that I was the only one. Far worse than being wrong, to a military recruit, is being an individual. In boot camp, the word “individual” is an epithet.
I was also not capable then of arguing the point, even if I’d been psychologically prepared to contradict the instructor, who was a senior enlisted sailor, a First Class Petty Officer, with the instructor’s all-important Red Rope on his shoulder, the Almighty Indicator of Infallibility.
So I agreed that he was right, tried to stop blushing, and hoped to God that I would never have to make such a choice. I told myself that I would still act in the Right way and not in the “correct” way. I would intervene if it came to that.
Thankfully, it never did come to that for me. Boot Camp is nothing like actually being in the fleet, of course. In the fleet, I did see instances of fighting. In each fight, the senior enlisted guy present was always punished, whether they were directly involved or not, if they didn’t act to stop it. So I do know that the instructor was full of shit when it comes to intervening to stop a crime. The UCMJ is pretty damned clear about that, actually.
But then, none of the incidents I saw involved women. And when the training provided to recruits directly contradicts the UCMJ, well, how many recruits ever read the law, or even remember the training?
And remember, I was just a squid on a ship in relative peacetime, not a gunslinger with advanced combat training and long-term exposure to the numbing violence of a war zone.
It’s not that I question the veracity of any studies or experiments anybody’s referring to, it’s just that it’s a little bit hard to stay calm or to not go into defensive mode when I read something that says, basically, “most men would not lift a finger to help a woman being raped.”
No study has been mentioned in this thread yet, afaik. Just one unsourced reference to a stunt by 20/20. And it didn’t involve gang rape, it was a DV situation with a couple in public.
As for staying calm… It is hard, but you gotta do it. Stay calm. Don’t be defensive; as is said all the time here and elsewhere, It Is Not About You. If you honestly believe that you would lift a finger, then there is no need whatsoever to get defensive.
As for “most men” I don’t know. But I do know that in 1994, most of the young men in my company wouldn’t even raise their hands to publicly indicate that they would lift a finger. And the one who did was told he would be wrong to do so.
And remember that “most men” is not the same class of people as “most military men.”
It’s a hell of an ugly truth to face: a lot of men really do hate women. I don’t think it’s “most men” but it is a lot of men, and most of the rest do, in fact, ignore it. It. Is. Everywhere. But until you’re tuned into it, it’s easy to ignore. If you’re a man. We are trained to ignore it. We WANT to ignore it, because it may indicate things about humanity, and therefore ourselves, that we really really do not want to face. Our own cowardice and complicity in evil.
Most men, I think, don’t hate women exactly, but they won’t do anything for them. Not if it means bucking other men. Especially if those men are treating the woman like their property. Then if you challenge them, you are at least seen as challenging them for their property, or else you are challenging their male privelege.
That makes YOU a target. That makes YOU on HER side. That makes YOU feminine. That makes YOU next.
Never underestimate the power of groupthink and fear of feminization combined. I’m convinced that that is precisely what’s going on in such a situation where supposedly decent people participate in or condone by silence terrible, terrible things.
In answer to your disbelief, Rob Verber of Nouns, I believe I will never forget that I was the only one to raise my hand in that class. (I nearly had forgotten it, but reading about this brought it all back.)
And that was in response to a strictly theoretical situation in a nice safe classroom in the US.
I was not in an actual gang-rape situation in the middle of a combat zone and without any authority of law to back me up. Nobody around but my gang-raping buddies who I know are perfectly capable of killing and raping and nobody can stop them? I don’t know that I’d have even had the courage to give her the damned phone.
God damn it all. I hate even thinking that. This world sucks. I suck.
IBTP.
Oh, and regarding the idea of Halliburton buying comfort women?
Well, if DynCorp did it and got away with it in Bosnia, why wouldn’t Halliburton/KBR or one of their assorted subcontractors be doing it now in Iraq?
http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2002/08/06/dyncorp/index.html
I have intervened with my friends to stop a rape, many years ago, when we were way too drunk to act sensibly. I believe a lot of men would do the same.
However, I have also intervened in a very public place (the middle of the busiest bus stop in Sydney) to stop a man turning violent on his partner. He assaulted me in front of about 30 or 40 people, and all of them simply looked the other way. Like Phoenician, I adopted my preferred combat stance and the guy walked away rather than persist. I asked a bystander to help me and he just shrugged and looked away. He wouldn’t even answer my question about the nearest police station. There were women present too, who also did nothing.
Similarly when I was assaulted in broad daylight on a university campus, while 10 or 15 people (male and female) stood watching right in front of the security office and no-one either intervened or called security (whose office had a frosted window). I had to call for help myself.
I also have an Asian friend who has been repeatedly mugged in broad daylight in front of multiple people (male and female) who don’t even call the cops.
So, having experienced that, I have little interest in helping others in situations of public distress, unless I really do think they are in serious danger. You really are on your own out there, not just because you are intervening by yourself, but because no-one is going to step in and help you. I really doubt that anyone here would have lifted a finger to help that woman, given that she was being held captive by her (and in this scenario, your) employer in a foreign nation with no laws, in a war zone. The guard was probably taking a huge risk just giving her his phone.
I remember reading about a holy man, an early Christian, who was incensed by the thought that a woman he knew, now elderly and a leader in the church, would enter into heaven in her present form as a saint. Justice, he thundered, would require her to revert to her original treacherously tempting form so that God could judge her for the way she was then.
The source didn’t relate whether the woman in question would prefer to spend the afterlife as a teen queen or an old broad.
The guy was presumably resentful that the sight of her gave rise to an involuntary response on his part, overpowering his will to chastity, which he blamed on her and her smooth cheeks and so forth.
Bless you for sharing this.
It does. You don’t.
Word.
From Pam’s quote: “…except this time she messed with the wrong guys…real men that took what was offered.”
Real Men Don’t Rape- EVER.
Maybe if that were made into a eye-catching bumper sticker and slapped on every vehicle in America, SOME of these pathetic excuses of humanity would FINALLY get that!!! But I doubt it.
I wasn’t sure if I should tell something I know of because I didn’t want to make this all about me or anything, but others have shared stories (thank you, all, for sharing) so I’m going to go ahead.
Back in high school (jeez, 3-4 years ago now) a friend of mine was leaving school later than others…. I don’t remember why she just was. A little background on my friend: loud, proud, and in-your-face dyke [her word, not mine]. She’d tussled with the administration before on some issues, notably our homophobic health courses and student club standards. I think she also got a gym teacher fired? Yeah, she was awesome. Administration didn’t like her much though…
Anyway, she was about a block from school when a large group of boys decided “hey, let’s sexually harass/assault that female walking alone over there!” It wasn’t “too bad” [biiig air quotes right there] but she was pretty damn shaken up and traumatized. She walked the block back to school, went to the police officers stationed there [yep, we have police officers stationed in our school] and reported the crime… oh no wait, she called 9/11 to report it, waited half an hour on the corner, walked back to the school in time to see the bike cop leisurely leaving the office to go see what the silly bitch was complaining about [ed: that’s my own commentary, not the police’s, administration’s, or hers]. Naturally, nothing was done, no report was filed afaik, administration didn’t do anything even though she knew they were students at the school, etc etc…
After she got home, she called me, a total mess… I walked over and… well I didn’t know what to do. She was just sobbing and upset and I basically sat there and listened to her try to get words out. I had no freaking clue what to do. I don’t ever have to fear this situation, Billo’s “reporting” about roving gangs of lesbians notwithstanding.
I wish I could have done something for her… but I felt pretty damn useless right about then. I still feel useless about it. And if a privileged white male like me can’t do anything, what the hell are the victims suppose to do?
Bleh. My species sucks sometimes.
Jackson, thank you.
In middle school, I was virtually daily surrounded by packs of groping, harassing boys. The other students, even my best friends, would sidle quietly away rather than risk becoming the next target, and the adults didn’t do a thing to help.
I’m sorry you did become the target of the bullies, but at least you gave the girl the knowledge that those boys were NOT the normal ones. Thank you, too, themann. It’s worth something for a girl that age to know males don’t have to be predators, and not to be constantly told it’s their fault for being “too pretty”, etc.
I refuse to believe that I am wired that way because of my gender. I just refuse, I’m sorry.
Oh thank god no one said that, or you would have a reason to get angry. We’re saying men are socialized to be afraid of other men’s judgments, not wired that way. Some men escape the pressure, mostly because their masculinity isn’t so anxious that they’re quick to get defensive of it under pressure (especially other men). But yeah, it’s human nature that the majority of people (not just men) are insecure, and it’s part of the patriarchy that men get a specific kind of conditioning never to cross another man to help a woman.
Yeah, and most people believed that they’d do the right thing in the Milgram experiment, too. Is it so hard to believe that we want to think the best of ourselves, but, as Matthew pointed out, you’ll never really know until you’re there?And isn’t it just a little convenient that the stories from men in this thread are uniformly about how they did the right thing in a similar situation? Followed, naturally, by cookies ‘n’ hugs from the women. It seems to me that we’re getting the good news report.
I’m sure most men would like to believe they’d gallantly help a woman in this horrible situation, but how many of them could really face down the massive pressure not to turn on the brotherhood of domination?
I could. And a lot of men I know could as well.
But then I’m not the type of person who’d go to work for any of those companies in the first place, so perhaps there’s a bit of self-selection bias at work here, or something.
grendel,
I can add a little bit of “minority report” extra information to my above circumstance
In retrospect, I could have thrown my weight around in the DA’s office. I’ve got a bit of an “in” there both through my dad [childhood best friend is the DA] and through later working there. It’s not that the thought didn’t cross my mind though.
I was just too chickenshit to follow through with it.
Jackson, forgive yourself if you can, you were just a little kid.
I forgave myself (ok, well, I’m working on it) for not prosecuting the man who raped me.
We do what we have to do to survive in this patriarchal system. And yes, IBTP also.
Non-troll men who post to a feminist blog are by definition a self-selecting population dedicated to the proposition that women are human too.
The fact that a large number of men on this thread have examples of having actually done the right thing by *no* means implies that the majority of men would do so. Nor does it imply that they’re lying, suffer selective memory, or in any other way didn’t do what they say they did. Feminist men are a *tiny* proportion of the population and by definition are at least partly immune to the “pressure not to turn on the brotherhood of domination”. Because it requires bucking that brotherhood in order to identify as a feminist when you’re male.
So guys, kudos to all of you who have done the right thing. And at least some of you who haven’t been tested probably *would* defend a woman in need. Because the fact that you post here and you’re not trolls proves that you consider women human beings and can resist cultural pressure to despise us.
But none of that says anything about how the majority of men would act. It’s kind of like talking about whether or not religion ever made you personally do anything crazy on an atheist board. The self-selecting nature of the membership of the board is going to have much, much higher proportions of people who would behave in a certain way than the average in the population.
Everytime something like this happens I always think back to the idiots I’ve know who would proudly say “bros before hoes” … … bros before hoes indeed douchbags
DeadMan
” I’m sure most men would like to believe they’d gallantly help a woman in this horrible situation, but how many of them could really face down the massive pressure not to turn on the brotherhood of domination?”
Very VERY few. Men on a feminist board are not an accurate sampling of the larger population. That ABC story comment thread – THAT’S the accurate sampling.
Not only would they not lift a finger, they will blame her for it afterwards.
” And isn’t it just a little convenient that the stories from men in this thread are uniformly about how they did the right thing in a similar situation? Followed, naturally, by cookies ‘n’ hugs from the women. It seems to me that we’re getting the good news report.”
Exactly. Not a true sampling of men at all.
Um, has anyone ventured over to Townhall to see what they have to say about this?
If you want to maintain your sanity, don’t do it.
Isn’t this the crew that got caught running slave-brothels in Bosnia?
And isn’t it just a little convenient that the stories from men in this thread are uniformly about how they did the right thing in a similar situation? Followed, naturally, by cookies ‘n’ hugs from the women. It seems to me that we’re getting the good news report.
As Alara said, you expect guys who read a feminist blog to uniformly say that they didn’t intervene? I don’t see a whole lot of misandry on here usually, but I think that qualfies.
As others have pointed out, it’s human nature to go along with the group, and men are way more heavily indoctrinated into their group identity than women are. We have a self-selected group of people both male and female here who have learned to question those group identities, so we are answering differently than 90% of the population.
There’s also the factor that no one — male or female — really knows how they’ll react in a crisis until it happens. I remember reading an interview with a (female) security guard at the Murrah building in Oklahoma City who always thought of herself as tough and resourceful … until the building blew up, and she had a meltdown and had to be rescued by other people. It was a huge blow not just to her ego, but to her entire self-image. And she didn’t even have to deal with an extra layer of worry about her “masculinity.”
“and men are way more heavily indoctrinated into their group identity than women are.”
Definitely. Women are taught to hate each other.
Dude, we’re not talking about a woman being raped in the park or in the apartment next door. We’re talking about a situation where being ostracized would be more than “painful,” it would be fatal. To take gender out of the equation, imagine witnessing a rape in prison. Are you gonna squeal? Or will you pretend you didn’t see nothin’?It’s a horrible shitty thing, but there you have it. I’d like to think if I lived in Germany in the 30s, I’d simply refuse to go along with what was happening. I’d like to think if I were born the son of a plantation owner in 1799 that, when I came of sufficient age, I’d decry the barbarism of slavery. I’s like to think I’d blow the whistle on gang-rapists even when my well-being was largely in their hands.
And maybe I would. And maybe you would. Better yet would be to never have to find out.
Just to balance out the “cookies and hugs” thing:
A friend of mine, one time not long ago, while waiting in front of a restaurant for the rest of our group to arrive…well he was being extremely condescending towards his wife. Everything short of telling her she was
‘just being irrational.’ It was not a violent situation.
I didn’t say anything about it. I’m not sure what I should have said. At the time I could rationalize it away, telling myself that it was a private argument between spouses (I forget what the actual argument was about).
I don’t know how much I bought that line then, and even less now. I don’t know what I should have done, but I know I didn’t think then and don’t think now that I was doing the right thing by staying out of it. I stillw ould like to think that I would intervene if I saw a potential rape or other assault, but that memory keeps me from being too sure of that.
So there’s that.
Years and years ago when I was in high school I was part of a really tight group of friends, male and female. We were pretty close and always hung out together in a big group.
One day a few of us were sitting around talking about our mutual dislike of a cheerleader in one of our classes. I assumed we were all on the same page, until one of my male friends said, “She’s the kind of girl you want to rape, just to put her in her place.”
It was a shocking moment for me, and for the other girls present. I seem to recall though, that although we were all horrified none of us said anything to him. We just made a mental note and moved on.
It’s one of my “I wish I could go back in time” moments, because I’ve thought about his words and my non-reaction many times in the intervening years. Did my sense of loyalty to my friend over-ride my sense of moral outrage? Did my discomfort with sexual issues make it hard for me to talk? Was I afraid of being singled out in my group? What happened? Probably all of those things. And it was worth me finding out about it early, because it has taken years for me to work it out and learn how to be brave in the face of possible negative consequences. People who know me expect me to speak up now. It’s a better way to be.
——
I keep wondering about the woman being kept in the shipping container. What was their plan for her? What would have happened if the guard had not given her that phone, and if her family members had not known how to bring pressure to bear from so far away? There’s an averted ending to this story that I suspect might have been far worse than what we’re hearing now. Thank goodness the guard gave her that phone. I can imagine how difficult a decision it must have been in that insane atmosphere. From all I’ve read, his actions were heroic.
“and men are way more heavily indoctrinated into their group identity than women are.”
Definitely. Women are taught to hate each other.
So, wait: is group-identity indoctrination pro-patriarchy or anti? Or is it just pro-patriarchy for men?
I’ve never been there to witness a woman being sexually assaulted or otherwise abused, but I have seen people of both sexes be just plain assaulted, as in beaten up (by people of their own sex, so that factor is still missing from the equation). And I know exactly what I did.
Nothing. Literally. I froze up. And afterward, I was glad someone else was there to help. Other kinds of emergency I can handle okay, but when people get hostile, something inside locks up.
I know I wouldn’t participate if I saw something like this going on, but would I be able to break the internal ice and actually do something? Would the fact that I know the people involved - “Bill? What the hell are you doing to Helen?” - or the fact the stakes are so high and there’s no one else to help be enough? I wish I knew. No hugs and cookies for me.
I do know that, given time to think, I would be the guy to hand over the cell phone and do whatever else I could think of. There are some things I just couldn’t live with - Unless my own life were in immediate danger if I did so. I’d like to think I’d still do it even then, but I’m not arrogant enough to say, as I sit here safe at my computer, that I’d have the guts to face down a bullet.
I know that we’re a small, pre-selected portion of the population here, and maybe self-congratulatory back-patting is out of line, but I take some small, cold comfort in the fact that we’re not the real assholes in this situation. The people commenting on the ABC story comment thread, Jawa, and Townhall are. Their attitudes are what enable things like this to happen.
Maybe that’s what we’re here for, on this site. If those attitudes can be challenged and changed, the pressure might start to run the other way. It’s happened before.
A few years back I saw two young boys (maybe 7 years old or so) chasing down a dog and beating it with a large stick. (In my backyard, no less.) I yelled at them to stop hurting the dog. So they did and off they went.
About 15 minutes later, their father came over to my house and proceeded to threaten me with my life if I ever “corrected his boys” again. I was so scared after that, I didn’t even call the police. I knew he was serious, and I knew the police wouldn’t be able to do anything but place me in even more danger.
You know, I understand the fear I had at that point. What I don’t understand is his boys or him. Same with the men who buy 12-year-old girls as sex toys or who would participate in gang rape. Same with the people who leave hateful, disgusting comments about such.
Some men escape the pressure, mostly because their masculinity isn’t so anxious that they’re quick to get defensive of it under pressure (especially other men).
Or, I point out, they outgrow it.
And isn’t it just a little convenient that the stories from men in this thread are uniformly about how they did the right thing in a similar situation?
You’ve got us - it’s all about us. Well done.
Followed, naturally, by cookies ‘n’ hugs from the women.
If it’s any help, in my case I only did it because the bitch’s whimpering was stopping me from enjoying “American Gladiator” on TV. If I’d thought about it for a bit longer, I would have held her down so her boyfriend could beat the shit out of her - it would have been quicker.
We don’t mention this stuff for “cookies ‘n’ hugs” - we mention it because it’s a way of relating these points to our own experience. I’ve done things that I’m not proud of in my life, but I’m not particularly proud of that incident mentioned - I think just about anyone in my situation would have done the same.
Huh. Never took you for an optimist before, PIATOR.
This and the gang rape of an Aborigines (sp?) girl in Australia have just sucked the energy out of me. I have no words.
These people just HATE women. That sentence is painful for me to say.
And people say there’s no need for feminism b/c women are out of the kitchen and can vote. ugh. Times like this make me agree with Robert Jensen that masculinity needs to be destroyed. At least, to fine-tune that statement, Mainstream masculinity needs to be destroyed. We need to promote alternate masculinities that don’t embrace hate.
Sorry if that’s random or whatevs, I’m feeling defeated at the moment. Time for comfort food…
I’m sure most men would like to believe they’d gallantly help a woman in this horrible situation, but how many of them could really face down the massive pressure not to turn on the brotherhood of domination?
When the brotherhood in question consists of a bunch of heavily armed murderous thugs who answer to no law, I have to give the man mighty props for doing anything at all. We ain’t talking about being called names or not being invited to go out drinking here, we’re talking about bullet in the brainpan, a shallow unmarked grave and no consequences for the scumbags who put you there.
I’ve never witnessed a sexual assault, but I’ve seen other expressions of sexism or misogyny, and I have to say that in a good number of those cases, probably most of them, I didn’t do what I should have.
I’d like to think that now, being a bit older and a little more understanding of what sexism and misogyny are and how they are manifested in our culture, I would do more. But human frailty and weakness are in all of us, and we do the best we can in light of that. It’s important to take responsibility for doing what’s right, especially when it is risky to do so, but at some point we have to forgive ourselves for the times we came up short.
So, wait: is group-identity indoctrination pro-patriarchy or anti?
Depends on the group. Are you being indoctrinated to think of yourself as human, or to think of yourself as “man” or “woman” and to hate the other group accordingly?
For girls to be indoctrinated as “women” the same way that boys are indoctrinated to be “men” would be enormously harmful to our whole society. And, if you think about it, doing that would serve the purposes of the patriarchy even better, since you’d have two dedicated groups warring on each other instead of one organized group warring on one that’s dedicated to infighting.
RobW, if you’re still reading this thread, that memory you shared about the military class would likely be a very good candidate for inclusion in the Yes Means Yes anthology about rape culture that they’re putting together over at Feministing.
Hmmm. Can’t agree. Don’t know who, if anyone, would benefit from that, but I can’t see how patriarchy would benefit from the “enemy” group becoming unified and hostile, rather than self-destructive.
“Betty Boondoggle” must be some fancy foreign language for “student of theory who can’t read”.
Listen, honey, put the books down and look through the tread for something other than that which “proves” whatever theory you were just reading about in class.
A couple of years back, I was driving my 40 mile commute to work, and saw a car pull over to the side on the expressway and a woman get out hastily or be pushed out. The car then immediately took off.
A lot of different ideas ran through my head. What is going on? Could it be some sort of an arranged scam/ploy? Should I stop and help her?
After I saw that she was on her feet and walking (and it was a pretty moderately-temperatured day), I didn’t stop (scam/ploy thought) but I immediately phoned up the expressway 911 system and reported what I’d seen. The person on the other end of the phone seemed barely interested in what I was reporting. Once I finished telling them what I’d seen, I was too far past her to decide to pull over and help. If I hadn’t been, I would have pulled up and at least stayed in my car “with her” until the police arrived–because I wasn’t 100% sure the police WERE going to arrive. I still feel guilty about that. I mean–if we can’t trust those who we are supposed to turn to in that type of situation . . .
This is one of those times when I wish I had something that truly conveyed the level of shock I felt at reading this more than just “oh my fucking god!”
The only part of that which remotely makes sense is the idea that when you get drunk you’re making yourself more vulnerable and that’s a bad idea if you are in the military and might have people trying to kill you.
I can’t believe that guy. It’s total bullshit, and that’s an understatement.
You’re supposed to be able to trust one another if you’re all part of the same group. Literally trust the others with your life. You are not supposed to betray that trust, in any situation, ever. This guy said that since she let her guard down, she deserved whatever happened to her? Of course she let her guard down, she thought she was among friends, comrades! What the FUCK?!
That sounds like a recipe for disaster. “Don’t think for yourself, just do whatever you’re told, be a robot, act like all the other robots.” Soldiers should be encouraged to disobey unethical orders, not blindly carry them out because disobeying would mean standing out and being an individual in addition to the possibility of imprisonment and court martial.
I can only promise to try, and I so promise.
I gotta agree with Mark Foxwell; I’ve long thought that the world (or more accurately the people populating it) sucked. If you were the only one who raised your hand, you proved that you’re different.
If anybody were to think less of a guard who was reluctant to act in that situation, that would be unfair, because acting IS potentially dangerous. Hell, last I heard there was the possibility that Pat Tillman was murdered just for his opposition to the Iraq invasion. If it happened, that was for his beliefs, as opposed to anything he actually did to affect the people he was serving with.
And that was the military, not the rent-a-grunts, who as ginmar said are in it because they weren’t fans of the UCMJ; they wanted a job where they could get paid for being thugs and killing people without any repercussions.
It’s not fair to ask “why didn’t this guard do more?” It’s a minor miracle he did anything at all considering he was putting himself at risk.
Samantha, for what it’s worth (which I doubt is very much, but better than nothing I guess), I feel so sorry for you.
That sounds lame, but I can’t think of anything else to say. People are such assholes, and I hate it, and reading that made my eyes well up.
Mnem, can’t agree with you there. When you have two organized sides you have deterrence. Men used to tell me that on the campus of my all women college, they got a feeling like they were not in charge. For the first time in their lives. That if they did something bad, women would decide what was to be done about it (call the cops, the dean of their college, throw them out), and they had no control over that decision, and no men to appeal to. Strength keeps people honest. You do it to one of my sisters, you done it to me - makes people act better. If it weren’t true, we’d take down the missiles we have pointing at other nations.
The fun thing about the instructor who spouted that b.s. is that he would expect his buddies to KILL a man who assaulted him while he was unconscious. Wonder where the argument about getting drunk and making yourself vunerable would go then? And BTW, I know a few guys who thought a friend was just helping them get home from the bar until . . . . Sad they don’t realize that women feel the exact same way about being raped. Or maybe they do.
I have intervened in the past.
I have also not intervened, when I was begged to do so. I am not proud of that.
I have also been stunned to observe that people can observe a crime taking place and not bother to alert anyone.
When I intervened: group of young people (4-5 men, 3-4 women) threatening to beat a homeless person. I was working the graveyards shift at the 7-11 (while I was in university) and came charging out, spitting mad. The surprising thing was that they obeyed my commands and left. (I’m a woman, by the way.)
When I haven’t intervened. Same store, another graveyard shift. A guy came in and asked us to call the cops because there was going to be a fight. We didn’t respond. He got angry at us and pleaded. We lied and said someone in the back was monitoring us and that they would call, just so he would go away. Then someone’s head got bounced off the window and there was blood everywhere. We called then, but for the life of me, I don’t know why we didn’t respond when he asked.
Also in the store, (ah, 7-11, how you introduced me to the real world). I was working alone. I was serving a guy at the till. There was an ATM machine behind me to the side, with a line up of a couple of men along my counter (the till area was a square in the middle of the floor, if that helps to visualize). Anyway, I realize someone is blatantly shoplifting cigarettes from the display only when I see the eyes of the customer I’m serving slip to the side to watch the act, instead of watch me as I count out his change. No one said anything. I turned around and confronted the guy - one glance at the display told me I had been robbed - and embarrassed, he reaches into his coat and returns ONE of the stolen items. At this point, I yelled “There were three!” and lunged across the counter at him, hooking my boots on the ledge, reached into the inside pocket of his jacket, retrieved the last stolen items and shoved him at the door.
Not a single person in the lineup - all men - (I was the only woman in the whole store at the time) moved or said a word. They just ignored the whole thing. Lucky for the guy at the till, he was smart enough not to say anything about interrupting his transaction to deal with the shoplifter.
grendelkhan,
I apologize if my post in any way came across as suggesting that most men would do the same (or that I deserve a cookie). I had hoped to do the opposite actually, showing how most, if not the vast majority of men would fail b/c I knew that systemic failure first hand and that only b/c of that experience do I help victims, mostly women, today.
Listen, my own kid sister is out there surrounded by men who either want to attack her or are willing to let it happen. Knowing that kills me b/c I can’t protect her. Hell, I hate that she should ever depend on any man to protect her basic civil liberties. I’d prefer a solution to a cookie anytime. I just want her safe. Neither she nor any other woman or girl will ever be safe or free until we (men) change the culture. The focus shouldn’t be on praising the very few of us who do something but on getting us to change those around us.
I fully realize that a deeply misogynistic culture can only truly be combated by radical fundamental change, but for those of us mere mortals who want to do what we can in the meantime, I encourage the men here to join anti-domestic violence and anti-rape groups and mentor young boys. Mentoring is not only effective, but extremely fulfilling. Personally, the best for me is mentoring other boys caught up in domestic violence just like I had been as a boy.
You do it to one of my sisters, you done it to me - makes people act better. If it weren’t true, we’d take down the missiles we have pointing at other nations.
Sorry, but I don’t think that turning the two genders into equally hostile camps is a solution. It may feel good to have that power for once, but do you really want to have to police the person you’re supposedly in love with/married to for the rest of your life?
Men do it because they’re told they “have to” or they’re not real men, and a lot of them are rebelling because feminists are showing them there’s a different way to live. Do you really want to go backwards and be told that you’re not a “real woman” unless you keep your husband or boyfriend “under control” at all times?
bmc90, I was thinking the same thing.
Turning men and women into separate armed camps would result in separatism.
Also, the mass slaughter of infant boys. Because the only way we could “win” the war on men is by reducing their numbers; physically they’re bigger than us and we are vulnerable during pregnancy, so even with equal access to weapons and equal tendencies to violence, we lose unless we outnumber them. Reduce the population of men to 10%-50% of the existing population, by killing the helpless ones under our control before we hand them over to the enemy camp, and we could achieve a balance of power in which men and women equally hate each other and are equally dangerous to each other. But at what cost?
The patriarchy doesn’t want that; separatism is one of the opposites of patriarchy (actually, separatism is matriarchy, in that men have nothing to do with the raising of infants and whether or not a father gets his boy would be entirely dependent on whether the mother, living in her female enclave, bothers to hand him over… it would be matriarchy, but a particularly twisted and unpleasant matriarchy). But people who want egalitarianism, or basic humanity between people, wouldn’t want it either.
For science fiction purposes, I find the concept of worlds where the sexes are at war fascinating. For purposes of real life, it would be a horror.
Mne, not talking about equally hostile camps. Just talking about equally STRONG camps. I’ll give you that I don’t want women trained to deeply hate men, but if women could be trained that you back up your sisters and hold men who wrong them accountable, I think everyone would act a lot better. Instead, too many women want to ingratiate themselves with the patriarchy in hopes that they won’t be the next victim. They apologize for rape, tell women to stay in abusive marriages and be nicer, and generally pretend like bad things don’t happen just for the crime of being female.
I hate to admit it, but that’s a situation where I don’t think I’d have gotten involved.
Imagining it, I’m thinking if I saw somebody shoplifting it’d be easy to let it go, because I’d ask if the store was really gonna miss the items in question. It would be even easier to do nothing if I noticed that the clerk had seen it, because I’d be thinking “Oh good, the person whose job it is to watch for this has noticed, now she’ll handle it, and I don’t have to worry about it.”
With assault or rape, though (and if I weren’t in a war zone surrounded by people who might target me next, which Godmonkey accurately pointed out makes a big difference), it’s not so easy to shrug your shoulders. If anything stopped me from doing something it would be cowardice instead of apathy, and my belief is that it doesn’t take a tremendous amount of courage to make an anonymous 911 call.
Although, if hp’s story is any indication, calling for help might not do much good, and that is really discouraging.
It would’ve been nice if you’d said something to him, but if his wife were able to handle herself in the argument instead of just passively taking his shit, and if there was no physical abuse or verbal abuse but rather mere condescension, I don’t think you should beat yourself up too much. Couples argue all the time, and people in general are reluctant to butt in unless it escalates to or past a certain point.
Rob, thanks for your honesty. Please don’t take this response as an attack on you, rather I’m taking the opportunity to comment further because the subject came up.
I know that shoplifting is a petty crime and does not compare to rape, assault, and murder. But you know, this is where apathy starts. Not caring about other people, not caring about community, not caring about neighbours, not caring about employees who get fired when too much shoplifting happens on their shift. (Trust me, 7-11 holds employees responsible.) If we cared more and intervened more - even when that means sweating the small stuff - we’d be creating the kind of society where people are and feel safe.
“(and if I weren’t in a war zone surrounded by people who might target me next, which Godmonkey accurately pointed out makes a big difference), ”
This exception makes me a little uneasy. It’s still saying - as patriarchy does - that better she bear the violence than you.
While I’m not saying we all need throw ourselves before the bus to save others, it still makes me uneasy to read exceptions like this.
Perhaps what that guard did was wait for the coast to be clear, as it were, before taking action to help Jamie. Perhaps that’s a better way to make the exception than just saying “oh well, better her than me”*
* - yes I know that isn’t what you meant for it to sound (at least I hope not) but that is what it sounds like.
I’d just like to point out that the comments on the ABC thread are not a direct reflection of the larger population, but rather a direct reflection of the Drudge-reading population of right-wing assholes who follow through and spew their hate all over the Eggman’s links, given the chance. That story’s been up there since ABC posted it, complete with a portrait which I can only suppose is meant to reinforce the automatic hatred your average right-wing asshole has for the face of a woman.
I’ll give you that I don’t want women trained to deeply hate men, but if women could be trained that you back up your sisters and hold men who wrong them accountable, I think everyone would act a lot better.
That’s okay as a stopgap for adults or near-adults, but why not train both girls and boys as children to stand up for the person who’s being injured regardless of gender (and race, and religion, etc.)?
Right now, it’s exactly that tribal identification of “I’m a man, she’s a woman, so I need to stick with my kind or be ostracized by other men” that’s causing so many problems and I see no reason to replicate it. Otherwise, we end up as armed camps despite the best of intentions, and I just don’t see that as a solution.
Well, not to further split hairs — and make no mistake, I hope I would be a whistleblower in any case, but I’m not vainglorious enough to solicit cookies’n'hugs — but she had already borne the violence. It was too late to stop an assault in progress — the dilemma was whether to blow the whistle or not.Blame gang rape itself on the patriarchy — after all, it’s a stretch to blame El Nino — but I think those who turned a blind eye, reprehensible though they be, are making an ignoble choice having nothing whatever to do with gender.
Oh, and for those who are sunk in despair about the future of our boys, don’t forget about the pink shirt boys in Canada.
It’s changing more slowly than we’d like, but it IS changing.
“t was too late to stop an assault in progress — the dilemma was whether to blow the whistle or not.”
Ah, I see. I thought you were talking about witnessing it happening and doing nothing for fear of being next.
Not that I recind my objection.
“but I think those who turned a blind eye, reprehensible though they be, are making an ignoble choice having nothing whatever to do with gender. ”
I’ll have to think on that because at the moment I disagree.
IMO, it’s neither; it’s a matter of utilitarian realpolitik. Men control most of the wealth and power on earth—not as individuals, as a group. Hence, group identity is very important for men. For men there’s literally lots of money and power at stake. But women are not mistresses of large enough pools of resources to render our ingroup rivalries/loyalties all that important. When a man refuses to back up the brotherhood, his refusal constitutes, from the brotherhood’s point of view, a real betrayal; but a woman who opposes her fellow women may simply be acting in her own best interests, and her behavior will be regarded in many quarters as basically rational, if not principled.
I’ve come to think this is a useful rule of thumb, Betty: When someone insists that X has nothing to do with race or gender, that’s when I know that X has everything to do with race or gender.
quote:
“Not a single person in the lineup - all men - (I was the only woman in the whole store at the time) moved or said a word. They just ignored the whole thing. Lucky for the guy at the till, he was smart enough not to say anything about interrupting his transaction to deal with the shoplifter. ”
I would not have gotten involved either. I worked behind a counter for a few years too, and the first rule we learned was don’t try to foil a robbery. A few cartons of cigarettes is not worth anyone’s life.
You’re lucky you didn’t get shot.
“That there’s a better than 2 in 3 chance I’d just go about my business or, worse, help the attacker. It’s hard NOT to take that personally.”
Statistics don’t apply to individuals. Ony 14% of American women have college degrees. But that number goes up if your white. And that number goes up if your parents had college degrees. And that number goes up a lot if you are between the age of 21 and 51. However, there are no 9 year old women who have college degress, so they bring the average down.
Before a statistic might apply to you, you need to figure out if you’re in the right demographic.
Years ago, when I was still living in New York City, early in the Giuliani years, I was walking towards the Salvation Army at 11th Ave. and 46th St. at 9 or 10 a.m. It was still a quite bleak area.
About a block ahead of me, I saw a man and woman arguing loudly; he was dragging her along by the arm, and she was fighting to get away. I didn’t have a clear impression of race, SES, etc.
Two police officers were nearby, not looking in that direction, and I pointed out the altercation to them. “It looks like he’s beating her up. You should do something.”
The police were both young — though it’s relevant to this thread, i can’t recall whether both were men or one was a woman. “Police” becomes a gender to itself, maybe. “She’s probably a prostitute.”
They didn’t do anything, and sadly to say, I went a block out of my way to avoid the couple. I guess I belong to the group “Something should be done” but not to those who take action.
also Sara you belong to the group of people still alive and in one piece because you didn’t intercede in a potentially very dangerous situation.
It’s funny - when you are taught first aid the first thing you learn is the D in DRABC. D for Danger. But a lot of people seem to think that when an altercation involving a violent person is going on, the D has to be skipped, and calling the cops isn’t an acceptable enough R.
I think a lot of people who make those judgements wouldn’t themselves interfere in the actual situation.
I’ve found that as a woman who does do shit, you do get shat on and attacked. I still do it. I’ve gotten used to it. I was in a bookstore when I watched the teenager next to me stick a magazine in his jacket. Now, I worked in a bookstore myself and I hated shoplifters, so this was no big jump. I used to tackle shoplifters every day, and I just used to get so irritated at them, because they just took what they wanted, while I had to work for what I wanted. Most of our shoplifters were arrogant little suburban shits whose parents were just sure we were wrong about their babies. And you know what? Attitude makes you six inches taller and twice as intimidating. As a woman, I found out that guys are subliminally afraid of women, and that’s a fear I encouraged. This guy was my size, so I knew I had nothing to fear.
“Are you gonna pay for that?”
“What’s it to you?”
“It’s stealing, asshole. Put it back.”
Dumbest motherfucker ever. There was a cop right outside the store. He tried to stare me down, then he put it down and ran, right into the cop.
Every time I’ve done it, I’ve gotten threatened and menaced. But I can’t live with myself otherwise. After combat, I’ve even more sure of taking on assholes. What are they going to do to me, shoot me? I can take anything they have away from them.
I remember calling the cops about my neighbor downstairs, who was beating his wife. The LAPD declined to come, saying that it was a ‘private’ or a ‘domestic’ matter. Only when the owner of the building called—because the now-ejected man had kicked down the door—did the cops take him seriously. When they got there, the cops were arrogant, macho, and extremely dismissive. This was LA in the Eighties.
If you go up to somebody aggressively enough, they will be cowed. They will back down. Somewhere inside they know they’re assholes. They fear being called on it.
I’ve had twenty years of threats, attacks, and being cussed out by people I called on shit. I get it from friends and soon-to-be-former friends. You will pay a price for it, especially if you’re a woman. It’s worth it. You can sleep with yourself.
RobW, Sushi No Gakusei, thanks for your comment; when I was young and foolish and 19, I was excited to start university in the same town that held the national military college. “Men! In uniforms” I sighed, as did many of the women in my all-girls residence.
Four years later, the honeymoon was long over. I had been roofied once (though escaped unharmed), and two of my good friends had been raped, a number of women involved with the military students were in abusive relationships. The conquest/pack mentality, the “othering” of women, the blind loyalty. The one friend who reported her rape was instantly besieged by instant messages from “friends”: “Oh, c’mon, M! Don’t do this, you’ll ruin his career! Besides, it wasn’t rape, it was date rape, if anything!”
I’m sick every time some politician spouts pseudo-patriotic spiel about “supporting the troops.” No, actually, I don’t: I know far too many of them personally.
RKMK, I know plenty of troops, too, and there’s a lot of good people amongst them. And I’ve been in sixteen years. Military colleges are hotbeds for privilege and all sorts of assholishness.
” I’ll never really understand why so many men hate women so much. I can predict it, describe it, diagnose it, whatever. But really grasp it? I just can’t. ”
I just feel whipped, sometimes, when confronting this. all i could do is tear up from frusration, when i read this. because it’s everywhere, every day, in so many guises; it is the sad truth.
i havent been able to bring myself to read much of the thread yet, but i did click on the 20/20 article & –& im sickened by how they have tricked her out with make-up & felt the need to disclose she had ‘vaginal & anal’ penetration…this wouldnt be an issue, just stating facts, in a truly equal world. but in this instance, i think theyre tying to be sexually titilating. fucking rot in hell.
This is so adorable:
““Betty Boondoggle” must be some fancy foreign language for “student of theory who can’t read”.
Listen, honey, put the books down and look through the tread for something other than that which “proves” whatever theory you were just reading about in class.”
NOt a single shred of a hint what the hell got his panties in a twist, but apparently I’m a college student because I posted something crybaby didn’t like.
*LOL* Trolls are fun.
I have to say, although our overzealous small-town suburban Illinois cops were annoying as hell to deal with (they were all issued a stick to shove up their own asses, I think), at least when came up to our parked car and saw me crying during a (verbal) fight with my boyfriend, they removed him from the car, walked him out of earshot, and asked me if everything was okay. And they weren’t completely willing to take an automatic “yes” as an answer.
Of course, I’m white and middle-class and was living in a very affluent suburb. I was clearly a “real” citizen in their eyes and therefore worthy of protection. Friends of mine who dared cross the border from Detroit into the surrounding suburbs? Not so much.