Remember?

No, actually, I don’t. Because, shockingly enough, that’s not what I said, and that’s not what happened. Like I said, quote me- where, exactly, did I say that there were none?

It was prompted by something that Entomologista said, but the comment was pretty clearly broader than that.

How can you design games without being able to read?

The irony, it burns!

Chet, you’re on a roll.

1. I never said that there were no women in games- I said that progressive depictions were the exception, not the rule.
2. MP never accused any particular person of suffering anxious masculinity, she said that gaming culture is steeped in anxious masculinity.
3. I never said I was a game designer, because I’m not.

So, which one of us really needs to learn to read?

It shouldn’t surprise me, though. You’ve got an axe to grind, and you’re either intentionally misreading/misunderstanding a number of posts, or you’re being blatantly dishonest. You’re arguing against points that nobody else in this thread has said, and you continually misrepresent the things that people have said. That makes you an idiot, a liar, or a troll.

“Ento — you’re trying to pull up the ladder to the clubhouse to keep out the undesirables. It ain’t gonna work.”

That seems pretty specific to me. I’d like to see the backbends you’re going to have to do to argue otherwise now that you’ve been proven wrong.

The only things you’re proving are that:
1. Your reading comprehension skills are abysmal.
2. That I’m a glutton for punishment, since I continue to argue with someone like you.

Like I said, MPs post was prompted by something that Ento said, so, yeah, she replied to Ento. That’s shocking, I know. In particular, it looks to me like MP was referring to Ento’s remark that people who play games, but aren’t gamers, “might just be frat boys who like to play some video games”. MP then said that Ento was trying to keep out the “undesirables”- trying to define “gamers” in such a way that kept people like that out. The suggestion was not that Ento was necessarily suffering from anxious masculinity or going around gender stereotyping, only that those two things are really common in gaming culture. And, a lot of people shorthand that as “frat boys”.

But, whatever. I’m really done with this “conversation”. You’re clearly not interested in understanding what I, or MP, or anyone else was actually saying. From the very begining, you’ve shown no understanding of what was actually being claimed. MP made a statement about gaming culture in general, and you responded by pointing to a specific person, saying “Maybe you’d like to tell that to Stevie Case, who defeated John Romero in a Doom deathmatch the first time they ever met”, as though that an example of a single person invalidates claims about the culture in general. MP rightly pointed out that claims about one person say nothing about the broader culture. If you’re so invested in thinking that you’re the only “real” gamer out of the bunch of us, and that we’re arguing a position that no sane person could possibly hold, by all means, continue to do so. If you’re invested in thinking that MP was somehow suggesting that all gamers are invested in anxious masculinity, or that she was suggesting that Ento is, go for it. You’re making yourself look like a moron, though. The only thing that any of us have been claiming was that gaming culture is still exceedingly sexist. MP thinks that a lot of the sexism stems from anxious masculinity and gender stereotyping, but it wasn’t an accusation against any particular person, or against all gamers.

It’s the part where I said “women are leaders in the game industry and are represented in progressive ways in games” and you popped up to say “no, you’re wrong.”

Remember?

Because, it sure looks to me like what I actually said was: “There are examples of women being represented in progressive and egalitarian ways, but that is the exception, not the rule.”

Funny, because I’ve never disagreed with that. Still grappling with the strawmen I see.

It was prompted by something that Entomologista said, but the comment was pretty clearly broader than that.

How can you design games without being able to read?

Ento — you’re trying to pull up the ladder to the clubhouse to keep out the undesirables. It ain’t gonna work.

That seems pretty specific to me. I’d like to see the backbends you’re going to have to do to argue otherwise now that you’ve been proven wrong.

But that’s exactly what you denied, Roy. Do I have to quote you? I asserted that there were women leaders in the game industry, and you popped up to attack me.

Oh, please do. I’d love to see you show me even one place where I said “There are no progressive female titles, nor are there any women in the industry.” Seriously, I’d love that.

No, really.
I’ll wait.
By all means, quote me, please.

Because, it sure looks to me like what I actually said was: “There are examples of women being represented in progressive and egalitarian ways, but that is the exception, not the rule.”

Funny that, isn’t it?

Again, it’s a good thing that’s not actually what she said, isn’t it?

Reading problems, much? It wasn’t by any means in the general sense that Ponygirl asserted that gaming identity was wrapped up in anxious masculinity - it was in the specific case of Entomologista, who had just staked out her identity as a gamer.

Actually, yes, it was, in fact, in the general that she stated it. It was prompted by something that Entomologista said, but the comment was pretty clearly broader than that. It was about “people”, not just one person. If you read her comment and thought that she was only talking about one person, I’d suggest you reread it, and consider all of the comments that followed. They make a lot more sense when you recognize that the rest of us weren’t talking about one specific person, but were talking about trends and systemic issues. Which should have been obvious from her intial comment, and should definitely have been obvious when she said: “Pointing to a girl gamer is somehow proof that anxious masculinity is not an issue in gamer culture.” Note that she’s talking about culture, not a particular person.

Woah, when have we been talking about “systemic problems”? What we’ve been talking about is Ponygirl throwing out accusations of “anxious masculinity” at the first sign that anybody is staking out an identity as a gamer.

You know, like she did up in message 30, to a woman.

But, you know, by all means, throw out accusations of “idiot” without even knowing what conversation you walked in on. That’s perfectly reasonable, I’m sure. What game did you say you developed? ET?

Or do you take such a ridiculous, argumentative stance on other issues as well?

Just against bullshit, Roy.

NOBODY denied that there were some progressive female titles, or some women in the industry.

But that’s exactly what you denied, Roy. Do I have to quote you? I asserted that there were women leaders in the game industry, and you popped up to attack me.

Remember?

Again, it’s a good thing that’s not actually what she said, isn’t it?

Reading problems, much? It wasn’t by any means in the general sense that Ponygirl asserted that gaming identity was wrapped up in anxious masculinity - it was in the specific case of Entomologista, who had just staked out her identity as a gamer.

For all you harp on “cultural analysis”, you’ve got a big problem understanding context, apparently.

Sure seems like you’re saying nobody knows what they are talking about except you.

Well, Deadman, when people show up with the shallowest of examples and seem to be completely ignorant of well-known game titles, what else am I supposed to think? I wouldn’t accept the self-confessed “expertise” of someone who claimed to be an expert on music, for instance, but had never heard of Verdi.

I don’t think I’m the expert, here, or that I’m alone in my conclusions. I just don’t think Ponygirl or Roy know what the hell they’re talking about, and I think that’s obvious from their posts.

Wrong again Chet … most of us spend all day making/talking about/reading about games. No to mention gaming in our free time. We study fucking sales charts and look at market trends (boring!),

But that’s what I’m talking about. The sales charts and the market trends insulate you from gaming culture.

It’s why so many of the games you people (assuming you are actually devs) make are so shitty. It’s abundantly obvious that precious few game developers know what people in the culture actually want.

Funny, but that’s not what I’ve said at all.”

Actualy you not only said that none of us know anything about sexism in the industry you basicaly implied none of us knew ANYTHING about the game industry:

“And what, exactly, makes you think that any of us did that besides you? You think we haven’t been gaming for most of our lives? ”

“Yes, I don’t.”

OR

“If you were an actual gamer, you’d know that what I’m sayin…”

And of course :

“That would be a conclusion I could accept if it was obvious any of you had done any digging. But you haven’t.”

Sure seems like you’re saying nobody knows what they are talking about except you.

“How can an example of a woman leader in the game industry not prove that there are women leaders in the game industry? You people aren’t making any sense.”

One example … … one … and nothing else … I think you may have confused what the saying “the exception makes the rule” is suppose to mean. I mean really, can you name a 2nd female producer how about a 3rd?

“Sure, maybe you develop games. Does that mean you’re a part of gamer culture? I don’t see that it automatically does. If anything you’re more likely to be insulated from the culture, not part of it.”

Wrong again Chet … most of us spend all day making/talking about/reading about games. No to mention gaming in our free time. We study fucking sales charts and look at market trends (boring!), we read message boards (both Fan and dev). I’m drowning in damn game culture, I dream about the stupid stuff. So no Chet … game dev’s aren’t insulated from gaming culture if anything we spend way too much damn time thinking about it (and maybe that’s why we see sexism where you don’t … you know … the extra thinking).

DeadMan

That would be a conclusion I could accept if it was obvious any of you had done any digging.

But you haven’t. You’ve looked at ads on GameSpot and used that to indict the entire field and everyone who plays games.

No, Chet, that’s not what happened. I’m drawing on over two decades of experience, countless magazines, hundreds of games, and gods only know how many hours of online experience. And, again, we’re not talking about everyone who plays games, and it’s either gross ignorance on your part, or intentional dishonesty to suggest otherwise. Or do you take such a ridiculous, argumentative stance on other issues as well? If someone talks about how the United States is a “free country” do you point out how there are people in prison and there are kidnapping victims so it can’t possibly be the case that we’re free?

That’s fuckin’ ridiculous. It’s ignorant and arrogant. And it completely overlooks the fact that not everybody who stakes out an identity as a gamer does so out of “anxious masculinity”, but in fact that a great many gamers stake out that identity as a reaction to anxious, forced masculinity. They always have.

Sure, many gamers have become gamers because they’re outcasts because they’re not necessarily “manly” in the ways that society thinks they should be. How, exactly, does that prevent them from also engaging in anxious masculinity within the gaming culture? A kid who is picked on for being a “wimp” and retreats into online gaming as a way of escaping that, but goes on to berate other players by calling them “fags”, or who goes on to hit on every female avatar he sees is simply replicating the anxious masculinity that he sees offline- he may be staking out that identity in reaction to it, but that doesn’t stop him from replicating it, as well.

I never said there wasn’t sexism in video games. In fact I’ve stated the exact opposite - the sexism is there, it exists, and it’s a problem.

But is the entire thing, and everyone in it, sexist? That’s bullshit. And it’s abundantly obvious that it’s bullshit, so obvious that despite the fact that’s exactly the position you and Pony asserted in the beginning, it’s not at all the position any of you have tried to defend.

Well, I guess it’s a good thing that neither MP nor myself have every made a claim about every single gamer, isn’t it? It seems to me that it’s abundantly obvious that claims made about gamers in general don’t necessarily apply to every single one of them. Particularly since both MP and myself count ourselves as gamers, and I guess I can’t speak for MP, but I don’t generally think of myself as being particularly sexist.

And you act like five years old makes a video game irrelevant, but actually the age proves my point. There have always been video games that represent women in progressive ways. How can those games be about “anxious masculinity”? It’s instructive that neither of you have even tried to explain.

Again, I didn’t think you were an idiot, so I didn’t realize I had to explain the fallacy of composition. We’re talking in general about the culture, not about specific instances. Things said about the whole do not necessarily apply to every piece of that whole, just as things said about the pieces may not be descriptive of the whole. That Beyond Good and Evil may not be sexist says nothing about gaming culture, just as saying something about gaming culture says nothing about a particular game or gamer.

Yes, I don’t. If you did you simply couldn’t make the arguments you’ve been making. You’d realize how indefensible it is to assert that there aren’t depictions of women in progressive, leadership roles in gaming; that women don’t hold leadership roles in the game industry.

And if you weren’t, apparently, an idiot, you’d realize that it’s possible for there to be progressive depictions of women within games, but still have a culture of gaming that’s pretty sexist. Sort of like how there are progressive depictions of women within comics, even though the culture of comic books is still pretty steeped in sexism.

The hottest new game for the PS3 had a woman at the helm. Her project.

How can an example of a woman leader in the game industry not prove that there are women leaders in the game industry? You people aren’t making any sense.

How can ONE EXAMPLE of a woman leader in the game industry disprove the assertion that gaming exists in a culture of anxious masculinity. NOBODY denied that there were some progressive female titles, or some women in the industry. THAT DOESN’T MAKE IT THE NORM.

You know what? I agree. I just don’t think the discussion should begin, as Ponygirl began it, with “Oh, you’re a gamer? You sexist. You just use your penis issues to exclude others”, addressed to people who don’t even have penises.

Again, it’s a good thing that’s not actually what she said, isn’t it?

It’s absurd. If you want to discuss the culture of gaming, it’s imperative to have a deeper understanding of it than has been evidenced by you all, so far.

I think it’s also important to understand cultural analysis, which you’ve shown no sign of understanding.

But, hey, that’s just my two cents.

That would be a conclusion I could accept if it was obvious any of you had done any digging.

But you haven’t. You’ve looked at ads on GameSpot and used that to indict the entire field and everyone who plays games.

That’s fuckin’ ridiculous. It’s ignorant and arrogant. And it completely overlooks the fact that not everybody who stakes out an identity as a gamer does so out of “anxious masculinity”, but in fact that a great many gamers stake out that identity as a reaction to anxious, forced masculinity. They always have.

You threw out a tiny handful of a titles- one of which was five years old- in defense of the idea that gaming culture isn’t sexist.

I never said there wasn’t sexism in video games. In fact I’ve stated the exact opposite - the sexism is there, it exists, and it’s a problem.

But is the entire thing, and everyone in it, sexist? That’s bullshit. And it’s abundantly obvious that it’s bullshit, so obvious that despite the fact that’s exactly the position you and Pony asserted in the beginning, it’s not at all the position any of you have tried to defend.

And you act like five years old makes a video game irrelevant, but actually the age proves my point. There have always been video games that represent women in progressive ways. How can those games be about “anxious masculinity”? It’s instructive that neither of you have even tried to explain.

And what, exactly, makes you think that any of us did that besides you? You think we haven’t been gaming for most of our lives?

Yes, I don’t. If you did you simply couldn’t make the arguments you’ve been making. You’d realize how indefensible it is to assert that there aren’t depictions of women in progressive, leadership roles in gaming; that women don’t hold leadership roles in the game industry.

You know, all those things you rejected when I said them. If you were an actual gamer, you’d know that what I’m saying is true, and you’d have a greater depth of research than “the first titties ad I saw on GameSpot.”

And aside from this I’d add that 13-15% women in a given industry does not, to me, equate to women thriving, leading and being represented in progressive and egalitarian ways.

The hottest new game for the PS3 had a woman at the helm. Her project.

How can an example of a woman leader in the game industry not prove that there are women leaders in the game industry? You people aren’t making any sense.

Why are you so quick to disregard the contributions of women to gaming? They’ve been there, throughout. For egalitarians you’re rather quick to turn your back, completely.

We can get more women in the industry and more feminist games by seriously discussing the sexism in games and attempting to find solutions that work

You know what? I agree. I just don’t think the discussion should begin, as Ponygirl began it, with “Oh, you’re a gamer? You sexist. You just use your penis issues to exclude others”, addressed to people who don’t even have penises.

It’s absurd. If you want to discuss the culture of gaming, it’s imperative to have a deeper understanding of it than has been evidenced by you all, so far.

So if you want to continue to insist that nobody but you knows about sexism in games,

Funny, but that’s not what I’ve said at all. Sure, maybe you develop games. Does that mean you’re a part of gamer culture? I don’t see that it automatically does. If anything you’re more likely to be insulated from the culture, not part of it.

That would be a conclusion I could accept if it was obvious any of you had done any digging.

But you haven’t. You’ve looked at ads on GameSpot and used that to indict the entire field and everyone who plays games.

That’s fuckin’ ridiculous. It’s ignorant and arrogant. And it completely overlooks the fact that not everybody who stakes out an identity as a gamer does so out of “anxious masculinity”, but in fact that a great many gamers stake out that identity as a reaction to anxious, forced masculinity. They always have.

You threw out a tiny handful of a titles- one of which was five years old- in defense of the idea that gaming culture isn’t sexist.

I never said there wasn’t sexism in video games. In fact I’ve stated the exact opposite - the sexism is there, it exists, and it’s a problem.

But is the entire thing, and everyone in it, sexist? That’s bullshit. And it’s abundantly obvious that it’s bullshit, so obvious that despite the fact that’s exactly the position you and Pony asserted in the beginning, it’s not at all the position any of you have tried to defend.

And you act like five years old makes a video game irrelevant, but actually the age proves my point. There have always been video games that represent women in progressive ways. How can those games be about “anxious masculinity”? It’s instructive that neither of you have even tried to explain.

And what, exactly, makes you think that any of us did that besides you? You think we haven’t been gaming for most of our lives?

Yes, I don’t. If you did you simply couldn’t make the arguments you’ve been making. You’d realize how indefensible it is to assert that there aren’t depictions of women in progressive, leadership roles in gaming; that women don’t hold leadership roles in the game industry.

You know, all those things you rejected when I said them. If you were an actual gamer, you’d know that what I’m saying is true, and you’d have a greater depth of research than “the first titties ad I saw on GameSpot.”

And aside from this I’d add that 13-15% women in a given industry does not, to me, equate to women thriving, leading and being represented in progressive and egalitarian ways.

The hottest new game for the PS3 had a woman at the helm. Her project.

How can an example of a woman leader in the game industry not prove that there are women leaders in the game industry? You people aren’t making any sense.

Why are you so quick to disregard the contributions of women to gaming? They’ve been there, throughout. For egalitarians you’re rather quick to turn your back, completely.

We can get more women in the industry and more feminist games by seriously discussing the sexism in games and attempting to find solutions that work

You know what? I agree. I just don’t think the discussion should begin, as Ponygirl began it, with “Oh, you’re a gamer? You sexist. You just use your penis issues to exclude others”, addressed to people who don’t even have penises.

It’s absurd. If you want to discuss the culture of gaming, it’s imperative to have a deeper understanding of it than has been evidenced by you all, so far.

Absolutely. And aside from this I’d add that 13-15% women in a given industry does not, to me, equate to women thriving, leading and being represented in progressive and egalitarian ways.

There simply aren’t enough women devs in the gaming industry to turn this around with any great speed. A lot of women who would make great devs never bother to get into the industry because of the preponderance of insulting or offensive titles, raunchy gamer culture online, or the simple fact that gamedev is pretty much gendered male. A lot of women don’t stay in the industry because they get tired of putting up with BS or having to prove themselves above and beyond the standard for male devs. Thankfully the company I work for is quite good to their female employees and actively looks for more.
But unfortunately it’s a chicken and the egg kind of deal… More female friendly games arent made because there’s not enough female gamedevs to push for them because more female friendly games don’t get made.

The industry has bottom lines just like everywhere else, and the problem is that making games about women and showing them in a healthy way is viewed as a *radical* act, when your basic male-oriented shooter with only male characters rakes in the cash, and titles like Beyond Good and Evil sell poorly, despite the fact that it was an excellent game across the board. When you have so few games with female leads, the ones that flop are seen as having flopped in part because of that critical difference. Regardless of whether or not its true, or logical, or even financially sensible, this view exists. And it makes a lot of investors wary of ponying up the millions to have those female friendly games created.

As long as female leads are seen as “risky” then male leads are the default we get. Depending on what company you work for it can be very difficult to turn a game away from that default. You could probably convince an investor to pony up for an adventure game with a female lead, but it’s harder to convince them to make, say, a tactical shooter with female main characters, especially when the target audience is all male. The sexism that exists and is perceived to exist in the industry is a very real factor what games get made and what people think will sell the most.

I would love nothing more than to bring up the numbers of women across the board in the industry. But that wont happen by denying reality, which is that the industry is gendered male and that many games have sexist representations of women or, more often, very little representation of women at all. And the reality that women oriented games are seen as risky in that they simply wont bring in the numbers that the next Halo or Call of Duty would bring.

We can get more women in the industry and more feminist games by seriously discussing the sexism in games and attempting to find solutions that work, and that dont scare the pants off bottom-line oriented production companies who aren’t used to thinking about women as their target audience. We can keep more women by enforcing standards of conduct within the companies and dev teams themselves. By planning ahead so that there’s enough memory available to even put in the option of a female character with female dialog, along with the standard male. Should we bother putting that memory into female characters or using it to make our animations better? Those kind of trade-offs are a real factor.

We wont get more female friendly games by ignoring the sexism and lack of visibility that exists and insisting that everything is hunky dory the way it is.

And by the way Chet… if you’re going to continue your line of argument you should be aware that you’re fighting against two experienced devs here, both myself and DeadMan and it seems like Ponygirl and Roy both know quite a bit about games as well (though I don’t know if they have any industry experience.)

So if you want to continue to insist that nobody but you knows about sexism in games, you better bring some cred, because you’re arguing against something that most people in the industry view as an established fact.

Regarding “sexism in Tetris”: I wasn’t aware that an April Fools joke required or deserved “rigorous research”.

Chet, gaming culture looks pretty sexist no matter how deep you dig into it. How deep do you want to go? You threw out a tiny handful of a titles- one of which was five years old- in defense of the idea that gaming culture isn’t sexist. How many ads do you want to look at? How many games? I promise you that the number of games with weird hypersexualized depictions of women far, far outnumber the number of games with strong female leads. And, yeah, I do think it’s important to, you know, look at actual gamers when we’re talking about gamer culture. Gamers who are playing games like Counter-Strike or WoW or City of Heroes or Call of Duty or or or…

You argued that “we’re talking about a culture where women thrive and lead, and are represented in progressive and egalitarian ways”. That’s simply not the case. There are examples of women being represented in progressive and egalitarian ways, but that is the exception, not the rule.

Obviously there’s sexism in gaming, because men game. I don’t know how many times I have to repeat that before it sinks in with you people. But if you stop looking at the first website where you see some titties, you’re nowhere close to actually getting in touch with gamer culture, and you simply don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about.

And what, exactly, makes you think that any of us did that besides you? You think we haven’t been gaming for most of our lives? Or do you honestly believe that you’re the only person around here who might actually be a gamer?