Someone from Details sent along this article making fun of fake breasts to Lauren, and she sent it to me. I’d be lying if I said it didn’t make me smile; it’s both funny (especially the joke about how you can hear the sea in them) and a nice reminder that fake tits can actually be a huge turn-off to straight men who value women’s independence or confidence. Fake tits symbolize two general themes that directly conflict with that—low self-esteem and dependence on men. That’s why I can’t really begrudge anyone who gets them, in my heart of hearts. I don’t doubt that women who perceive that their value in society rests with the judgments of men and get implants to improve that value are actually rational actors. One of the women mentioned in the article, Victoria Beckham, would, for instance, have completely faded from the glow of fame if she hadn’t married a famous athlete. Her value in society is almost solely dependent on her famous marriage. To a lesser extent, that sort of calculus works for a lot of women who get breast implants.
As for the self-esteem thing, well, I don’t buy that getting the universally recognized symbols of desperation implanted into your body is good for the long-term self-esteem, but what do I know? I did grow up with the benefit of the indie/punk subculture, where being kind of flat is something of a badge of pride. I haven’t walked in the shoes of someone who moves in circles where being flat is so damn shameful.
By the way, Details magazine is so confused sometimes. Sometimes they like to hearken back to their pro-queer, pro-woman past and sometimes they publish stuff that celebrates sexual assault.
I’m entirely unsure why on earth they singled out Lauren to send this to. Maybe did a search on “feminist blogs” and pulled up her email? I feel weird about this. On one hand, my usual knee-jerk fuck you attitude is kicking in. On the other hand, it would be kind of funny if positive response from the blogs made them more and more willing to slaughter a few sacred cows, like the big cultural myth that women get breast implants for themselves instead of to broadcast a certain message to men.
329 Responses to “An aside on saline”
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Now, that’s not very fair. There’s her work with the Spice Gi…..
OK, maybe it is fair.
Charming.
I tend to read this as just one more way to denegrate women by a large segment of misognistic men. they value women by their attributes, so when women start getting fake tits, after the inital amusement wears off, they turn on them. after all, it’s easy to point to women as using these breasts as another way to ‘be fake’ towards men; to prostitute themselves to the highest ‘bidder’; to lie to men.
on the other hand, i feel this fake breast & plastic surgery pressure on women , & from a ridiculously young age, has got to stop, & if this hastens it, great. there are legit reasons for breast reconstruction. getting attention isnt one of them.
Don’t forget that some of us had reconstruction after breast cancer. Yes, I understand that in a non-patriarchal, less boob-obsessed culture women wouldn’t feel pressured to have reconstruction done after mastectomies but we don’t live in that culture so tread softly on this subject.
Personally, I didn’t want to live with the daily decision to whether to go boob-less or to conform to the patriarchy’s expectations so I just replaced what I lost. I just don’t always have it in me to put up with the stares of being boob-less and I don’t always want to be known as Cancer Girl. Sometimes I just want to blend.
Frankly, though, implants scared the hell out of me and I opted to use all my own tissue. Just don’t trust ‘em.
I did grow up with the benefit of the indie/punk subculture, where being kind of flat is something of a badge of pride
As someone who was born with (well, not literally, but you get my drift) 36 DD’s on a very petite frame, I am so fucking tired of that sort of thing. Physical traits should never be a badge of pride. I don’t think you’re endorsing that view, necessarily, but I’m just saying it’s not wholly beneficial. Any time one physical trait is assumed to convey superior personal traits, it hurts the people who don’t have it.
Also, I actually disagree with:
the big cultural myth that women get breast implants for themselves instead of to broadcast a certain message to men..
That’s certainly how they’re sold to women, but I’ve never met anyone who asserts that with a straight face unless they’re having it done themselves. Everyone I’ve ever known to talk about implants (from Texas to Massachusetts, from poor public high school to rich liberal suburb) takes for granted that people who say that are A) lying to themselves or B) trying to sell something. That’s why, as you point out, they’re a universal sign of desperation. Thus, I don’t think it’s really a dominant belief in our culture that women ACTUALLY do it “just” for themselves.
And BadKitty, I wasn’t thinking when I wrote - I do think that reconstruction is a different issue. Related, but different. I apologize for not considering that facet.
Trouble is, many men cannot tell the difference.
Moreover, many convert that negative “turn-off” energy into misogyny. As in, let’s make fun of women who get implants. It’s the usual slut shaming based on appearance, but it’s socially accepted. Example:
The article isn’t funny at all.
i meant, it’s easy for those kinds of men to say that stuff. theyre the same kinds of males that always declare that they want a woman who never wears make-up, “cause it’s so fake!”. they actually expect women to look like shania twain does in a video. they dont actually know that she has a trowel full of makeup on in it, under the lights & shadows, to achieve that ‘natural look’. you know. the kind that want ageless 17yr old pussymachines ;p
“The Beauty Myth” came out during my formative feminist years, so I am probably the wrong person to opine about this, but I tend to think that ALL non-reconstructive, gender reassignment, or medically necessary cosmetic surgery on women is questionable from a feminist standpoint.
As the Kanye West thing proved, this stuff really is quite dangerous, and, though I agree it MIGHT be rational for a small subset of the population (celebrities, strippers, etc.), it is very bad for women as a whole. In addition to endangering women, it contributes to the unrealistic beauty standards of our society, contributes to the idea that womanhood should be all about whatever is most pleasing to men, and causes HUGE self-esteem issues in many women.
I don’t know: I have a good friend who had an oscillating weight issue for a number of years, and while she’s got that under control now, it apparently did a number on her breasts, so she went out and got the firmer and bigger breasts she’d always wanted. She was pretty clear that she was doing it for her and not for her husband — though her husband does seem to appreciate them, FWIW.
I personally on those incredibly rare occasions when I check out pr0n find fake breasts to be an instant turnoff. They just don’t look “right,” for lack of a better term. But I guess if a woman wants to do it, it’s up to her: not my business.
I thought the article mostly held up individual women for mockery. It’s easy to make fun of Heidi for caring what other people thought. No, you shouldn’t care. But the writer doesn’t have to live with his primary worth as a human being being defined in terms of his hotness.
And I’d like to second Betsy on the “badge of pride” comment. I spent most of my teen years slumped over hoping people wouldn’t notice my chest. It didn’t work.
Don’t forget that some of us had reconstruction after breast cancer. Yes, I understand that in a non-patriarchal, less boob-obsessed culture women wouldn’t feel pressured to have reconstruction done after mastectomies but we don’t live in that culture so tread softly on this subject.
If you’d had, say, your ear removed because of cancer, no one would think it was bizarre for you to want to have something that at least vaguely resembled what had been there. But breasts have been so sexualized that some people have gone too far the other way and declared that replacing a missing body part is bowing to the patriarchy.
(Not that anyone should be forced to have reconstructive surgery if they don’t want it. Just pointing out that wanting to go back to the way you used to look before the surgery is a very human and understandable desire.)
Geez, that’s the double-blind back-loop of misogyny right there. See, he’s not saying that he thinks that women with big tits are stupid. He’s saying that women think that women with big tits are stupid, and who is he to argue since women must know other women better than he does?
Not everyone getting breast implant is going for the ginormous - and saline does look much more natural than silicone. It’s no wonder lots of people can’t tell the difference.
For the record, for about 14 years I had a DD cup on one side and a AA cup on the other. I got tired of the stupid looks and jackass reactions to the lopsideness - I got a breast implant on one side and a reduction on the other to even me out to a C.
On an interesting sidenote being Canadian, I got it for free. Not because all breast implants are covered - they’re not - but because the medical establishment felt that this was justifiable cosmetic surgery, on par with facial reconstruction. YMMV
Not everyone getting breast implant is going for the ginormous - and saline does look much more natural than silicone. It’s no wonder lots of people can’t tell the difference.
For the record, for about 14 years I had a DD cup on one side and a AA cup on the other. I got tired of the stupid looks and jackass reactions to the lopsideness - I got a breast implant on one side and a reduction on the other to even me out to a C.
On an interesting sidenote being Canadian, I got it for free. Not because all breast implants are covered - they’re not - but because the medical establishment felt that this was justifiable cosmetic surgery, on par with facial reconstruction. YMMV
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Argh! I have so much trouble reading the anti-spam numbers.
I tend to read this as just one more way to denegrate women by a large segment of misognistic men.
Me too. Pressure women into getting implants by making small-breasted women feel inferiour, and then mock them for giving into the pressure. Gross.
Delurking because while I usually enjoy your posts very much I have a slight issue with one line here:
“…the universally recognized symbols of desperation implanted into your body…”
I realize that you mean breast implants are said “symbols of desperation,” but due partially to phrasing and partially to the nature of the discussion, that could be read as meaning that larger breasts in and of themselves are symbols of desperation.
The problem I have with that is complex: first, there are already widely known ideas about what it “means” if a woman has large breasts–she’s a nymphomaniac, a slut, immodest, probably a homewrecker, etc. Even though it’s unintentional, it’s jarring to hear that idea repeated here.
The second problem is that breast implants themselves are not universally recognized. Between the growing skill of cosmetic surgeons, the varieties of implants, the kinds of clothes worn (undergarments included), the incredible variety of the bodies and breasts of women with or without implants, and the increasing Photoshopization of the images we consume via MSM, a surgically modified breast and a natural one cannot always be told apart by sight alone.
In light of this, it seems that without confirmation of surgery, “breasts that look surgically altered” are the “universal symbols of desperation,” as well as “breasts that look like the end goal of surgical alteration.”
Possibly, this could be because of your wording. Mentally substituting “breast implants” in that phrase creates a redundancy (”[implants] implanted into your body…”) so perhaps I tried to make sense of it by reading just plain [breasts] or [larger breasts], which I then parsed as being “the universal symbol of desperation” and then came the dissonance…either way, my two cents, and I am sorry to bother you.
Sometimes I wonder about where the line between body mods for oneself (piercings, tattoos, whatever) and body mods for others (breast augmentation) lies. I mean, the theory of getting a boob job for the same reasons that one gets a tattoo isn’t irreparably flawed, it’s just that the context of our sexist society makes them very different.
Mnemosyne makes a good point in 12 related to this. I don’t think vanity is a sin, in moderation. I think it’s hard to have a ‘moderate’ breast augmentation, simply because our medical technology doesn’t allow it. But if we had the ability to have moderate boob jobs, and we had the social circumstance that allowed women to make honest and personal choices about their breast-related vanity, women could choose breasts the way they choose hairstyles.
We, of course, don’t live in that world.
Wow Amanda…aren’t you charming?
Pretty amazing how you have the hardline lowdown on the esteem levels and worldly worth of women with implants like that! How hip and indie punk cool of you! I mean, it takes a set of brass ovaries for a feminist to rip on women’s appearances, possible motivations, position in society and feelings like that!
Funny, a lot of people would suggest that moreso than implants a woman who does this sort of thing and tears down other women in order to show how much more superior, intelligent, hip and cool she is might be the one suffering from esteem issues and a sense of desperation. Because wow, aren’t you just so much better and confident than those girls with the tits full of saline?
Hell, I have implants, yet I’ve never felt the need to crack on women without them or assume to know their motivations or levels of self esteem or apparent worth in the world, funny that a woman without them feels the need to do exactly that.
Interesting indeed.
I can definitely see wanting reconstruction after a mastectomy, or evening out very lopsided proportions (if one breast is far bigger than the other, that can cause back and balance problems), or getting very large breasts reduced (again, back problems). And I’m also thankful that when I had breast cancer and surgery, I was able to have a lumpectomy. I’m rather attached to my body parts and would like to keep ‘em!
I’m also grateful to have spent my youth in various indie/punk/goth/artsy subcultures where “conventional attractiveness” was not an issue. Especially in San Francisco, there was a lid for every pot. Someone wanting plastic surgery “to be sexier” would have been met with puzzled stares or outright laughter.
I would not want the kind of man I’d have to have plastic surgery in order to attract. This means I lose out on being an idle rich trophy wife, I guess. Boo hoo. Too bad, so sad.
I agree with Pussy and Roses. I see this as just another example of men requiring women to look a certain way and then mocking them for the tools they use to achieve that look.
Men want their women to be stunningly gorgeous, but if she spends time in front of the mirror or drops money at Sephora she’s “vain” or “high maintenance.”
They worship big tits and then turn around and ridicule those women who get theirs artificially.
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Unless you’re naturally perfect-looking, of course.
I’m filing this under men trying to hide behind ostensible feminism to shame women, and other women hiding behind ostensible feminism to enable them to do it.
Whatever. For those with fingers not reflexively placed on the “shame” button, there are clearly other options besides “doing it for the menz” and “doing it to bolster flagging self esteem.” How ’bout cause you want to do it? Why is it anyone’s business whether it’s too drastic a step to take for a look you want?
For the record, like wondering, I too had a substantial size discrepancy, although not as substantial as hers. The time and energy spent on trying to sew pads in one cup to allow bras to fit was much more, cumulatively, than the 2 days it took to be back in the gym after the surgery.
If it’s impossible to take any step appearance-wise without being insecure or doing it for the men, then the slippery slope includes manicures, makeup, frequent hair styling, etc. Or high heels. Or suntanning. Can we prove there’s more health risk with implants than the other things? I don’t think so. I know more sun gods and goddesses with melanoma than with implant malfunctions.
I agree with Elaine: the article’s not funny. And to the extent this post is geared to fall under the rubric of feminism, it doesn’t. It just gives the misogynists at Details exactly what they don’t need: a cheerleader.
Looks like they didnt single out Lauren.
As a naturally big-busted woman (yup, 38D), I don’t find the article too amusing. I’ve spent a good portion of my life wishing my breasts were smaller, since they sometimes get in the way (such as doing sports), need a bra for support even when it’s sweltering hot outside, are too big for many fashions, and, most irritatingly, seem to have the power to prevent some men from looking me in the eye. I’ve often felt that I’d be taken more seriously as a B cup. “Funny” articles about fake breasts just reinforce the idea that busty women (since many men can’t distinguish between real and fake breasts) are dumb and only interested in attracting the male gaze.
The thinking seems to be that even God-given 38Ds were fashioned at the expense of cerebro-cortical mass; wit and tit are inversely proportional.
As someone with natural 38Ds (God didn’t give me these tits; my genetics and 15 years of hormonal contraception did), and quite a bit of what passes for intelligence in this culture, I’m going to have to jump on the “ha ha, very funny, asshole,” bandwagon too. I’ve never found that anyone treats me like I’m a bimbo because of my chest size. (Of course, the fact that I evince none of the other cultural signifiers of bimbodom probably has something to do with it.) People are more likely to treat me as if I’m stupid as soon as they notice that I’m physically handicapped, actually (because a physical handicap always means someone’s metally retarded,* right?).
Then again, if I actually kept track of how many different permutations of the “[insert characteristic here] women are stupid” trope there are out there, I’d probably crawl into a hole and never come out, except maybe to bite a few misogynists’ throats out…
(*Pejorative for rhetorical effect.)
Snore, Renegade. I don’t remember the part of the feminist manual where I have to pretend that all women act out of purely altruistic, pure motivations at all times. Your desire to misread my post is beyond obvious; what’s the deal? I’m sympathetic to both low self-esteem and the need for men to give you status. I’m not immune to caving to either pressure, nor did I claim I was.
I can admit it, though. There’s something genuinely pathetic about a woman coming up with a bunch of self-justifying reasons. If a woman said, “Yeah, I got breast implants because it helped me marry up and now I don’t have to work,” I’d at least applaud her forthright no-bullshit attitude.
It’s confusing to me why it’s so easy to get breast augmentation surgery. Look at how many hurdles exist for sex reassignment surgery. I’m not saying the two are on a level (most obviously, sex reassignment destroys reproductive capability and requires a great deal more cutting), but it seems like there ought to be SOME medical or psychological reason necessary to getting breast augmentation. Otherwise, every model is going to be walking around with them and making young girls feel bad! Holy shit, my prophecy came true retroactively! I’ve gotta be careful with that.
I realize that you mean breast implants are said “symbols of desperation,” but due partially to phrasing and partially to the nature of the discussion, that could be read as meaning that larger breasts in and of themselves are symbols of desperation.
Okaaaaaay, we ALL know I didn’t say that, so why streeeeetch the reading?
I have trouble with the idea that reproductive rights are unquestionable but that cosmetic surgery is somehow wrong. It’s all about bodily autonomy, yes? I mean, whatever the reasons we choose to do whatever we do to our bodies, they’re our bodies, right?
So why reinforce negative attitudes about large-breasted women to begin with? I mean, speaking as someone who’s 38D who has had people say insulting and dismissive things to me because they assumed I had implants (I don’t), I don’t see the point in stigmatizing or criticizing this stuff.
Also, Dilan Esper,
It’s really obnoxious to talk about the decisions people make about their own lives when you don’t understand those decisions in the first place. It’s really poor feminism to judge other people’s actions based on your prejudices about their motivations, rather than bothering to learn the truth about them in the first place.
Seriously, feminists - hell, everyone - should just shut up about SRS if they’re just going to complain about it. Would you accept men telling you what your political priorities would be? No? Then don’t tell trans people what our political priorities should be. That’s not your place.
Put me down as another 38D, although mine didn’t grow in until after kids. I started as a 36B about five years ago. Two children later, I’m ginormous and they don’t seem to be going anywhere. They do get in the way of some activities that I used to take for granted, like yoga, and the bouncing is just painful. I haven’t really noticed a huge difference in the way that I’m treated, other than I do get stared at more often and eye contact is definitely less, but no one has implied (to my face) that I’m otherwise less intelligent or accomplished because of the large rack. Although I haven’t had a shirt fit me correctly in years and I kind of miss that (and wearing strappy tank tops without requiring a bra).
I see this as just another example of men requiring women to look a certain way and then mocking them for the tools they use to achieve that look.
Men want their women to be stunningly gorgeous, but if she spends time in front of the mirror or drops money at Sephora she’s “vain” or “high maintenance.”
Yeah, really. My ex complained once when he felt I was taking too long to get ready that I wore too much make up. I wore, and still wear, merely Neutrogena foundation with salicylic acid, and oil-absorbing powder. That was it.
36DD here, and i’m only 5′1′’! i’ll second the inability to find a shirt that fits. one company makes button down shirts based on cup size along with regular size and those are over $100 a shirt. i’m pretty sure i’ve lost out on jobs i was qualified for becos of inability to dress in standard interview clothing like button down shirts. i spend my summers in men’s A style tank tops because nothing else fits. in order for a coat or jacket to fit my bust i have sleeves that go almost to or sometimes even past my fingertips. the world is not kind to the busty amonst us.
and i’m echoing the ewww at the original article.
I am curious to hear you describe how you differentiate between reconstructive surgery and cosmetic surgery, and to have you elaborate on the nature of ‘medically necessary’ cosmetic surgery?
PS: Amanda or someone with mod access, please feel free to delete my typo’d post immediately prior to this one.
I have trouble with the idea that reproductive rights are unquestionable but that cosmetic surgery is somehow wrong. It’s all about bodily autonomy, yes? I mean, whatever the reasons we choose to do whatever we do to our bodies, they’re our bodies, right?
No one is advocating a ban on it. So your analogy falls apart completely right there. But for what it’s worth, women’s liberators had more than “choice” as a reason that birth control is critical. Pregnancy is the site of women’s oppression in so many ways, and birth control is the return of control over pregnancy to the hands where it belongs, which are women’s.
Plastic surgery, however, is largely not about liberating our bodies from male determination, but returning our bodies to male determination, in fact having our bodies carved up to meet standards set by men, and not just any men, but sadistic men who get a rise out of how much they can tell women to jump and find women who’ll say, “How high?” Or in this case, to augment and find women who’ll say, “How big?”
When you live in a patriarchy, even things you do “for yourself” can be problematic. If a significant part of the reason that X makes you feel better about yourself is that you’ve been assaulted for 10, 20, 30 years with messages that not-X is bad, ugly, evil or uncool, then saying you’ve done X for yourself is a statement that can’t just be taken at face value. It may be a sensible choice, or the best thing under the circumstances, but it’s not simple and uncomplicated the way that the phrase seems to suggest. (I think, for example, that many of the people in this conversation would have less trouble seeing the possibility of issues if a black person using skin lightener said they were doing to just to feel better about themselves, without any expectation of a change in attitudes from others.)
Also, am I right in thinking that the “non-” in Dilan Esper’s comment should be taken to apply to all the things in that list?
Nothing about any prior comments should even remotely be considered somehow anti-big-boobs. As a rule, my sympathies are largely with my more be-mammaried sisters. I’ve bristled my whole life at suggestions that I should be jealous, but only a paranoid person would think that’s even in the same ballpark as trashing big breasted women. I am insulted that everything between women is a competition for being the bestest girl. I am also well aware that there’s a real lack of cute lingerie for big breasted women, which is in itself this kind of oppression. My old roommate had huge breasts and would root through my underwear giving me gentle hell over the cute bras that I could find. I felt for her; it seemed a worse oar to row to me than the frequent comments about my small breasts that I find easy enough to brush off.
All of which is why breast implants baffle me, since my whole life there’s been an equal number of messages about why being flat has its good sides to balance the pressure to get implants. I’ve gotten a lot of shit about being flat-chested, but I’ve never had the urge, even once, to “correct” it. It couldn’t sink in, because there’s a genuine countermessage of very beautiful, flat women out there, so you don’t even need to be feminist to see that breast implants=bullshit. I refuse to believe that women who get implants are largely dumbasses, because that makes no sense, so they must just have a much different level of pressure than I’ve been exposed to.
Oh cool, there’s a company that makes shirts based on cup sizes?! I can’t find anything button-down in my size that doesn’t gap at the buttons. I can go one size up sometimes, but it requires shopping exclusively at Catherines and having the rest of the shirt hang like a circus tent. Whether or not being flat chested is a source of pride, it’s got to be a damn sight easier finding clothing that fits, or even a brassier that doesn’t look like the aerospace industry was involved in it’s engineering.
I can’t blame any women who get artificially enhanced chests, though from my perspective it’s hard to understand. Big boobs are nothing but a pain in all kinds of ways. The pressure to conform hits women no matter what their cup size. Women who undergo breast enlargement are easier targets than the culture that bullies them into it, I suppose.
I realize that there isn’t any serious activism to ban plastic surgery, but I do think that the question of bodily autonomy is pretty much inseparable from questions of self-determination and reproductive freedom. Sure, getting breast implants isn’t about whether or not you want to have a baby, but it is about you choosing what you want to do with your body and about whether other people can choose for you. Whether you have control over your own life. Should women feel pressured to have plastic surgery? Not at all. Should women feel pressured to not have plastic surgery? I don’t believe so.
I know that reproduction is used to oppress and control women. I don’t see how the idea that women shouldn’t want larger breasts, or to be thinner, isn’t going down the same path.
I also think it’s overly simplistic to reduce the question of motive for plastic surgery down to nothing more than returning bodies to male determination. Condemning plastic surgery simply shifts from one imperative (this is the idealized female body) to another (no one should want to change her body in particular ways). It’s not really liberation to shift from extreme to the other.
On the other hand, especially with SRS (which was my main point of contention), the reasons for questioning it in the first place are questionable, driven largely by prejudice, and accompanied by unflattering, uninformed, and largerly insulting stereotypes. If someone constantly characterizes my choices in ways that make it clear they have no idea what they’re talking about, should I take their criticism to heart and reexamine a decision I’d already spent most of my life making?
It’s really easy to go from “what you’re doing is questionable because I think it supports the patriarchy” to “I hate what you’re doing and I’ll use the patriarchy thing to justify why you should hate it too.”
Here’s a fun little assignment for any women questioning how our culture influences us as individuals:
When you’re getting ready for bed tonight, take off your shirt, stand in front of a mirror and look at your breasts. Look at your body as a whole. Now, imagine you’ve been told that you need a double mastectomy. The breasts nature gave you have to go. You’re going to need surgery. The choice of how to do it is all yours.
Do you “replace” your breasts with something as close to your own breasts as possible? Do you take advantage of the opportunity and make them smaller? Or larger? Or do you just say, no thanks because any reconstructive method is painful and has its complications?
What do you want? Why does society tell you to want? What can you live with and look at every single day? How much does having breasts vs not having breasts affect your identity as a woman? Your sexuality? How does your partner feel? Does that matter? If so, should it? What if this relationship ends? Does the idea of getting naked with a new partner affect your decision?
The personal meets the political pretty hard in this situation. For me, it was hard to tune out all the other voices and figure out what I really wanted, and I’ve defined myself as a die-hard feminist my whole life.
I’ve been on both sides of the boobed issue; I was small (34B) for most of my life, then in about 6 months grew to something like a 38D or more. I’ve been dealing with these ginormo things for about a year now, and it’s rather annoying.
The worst thing about this was that this happened after I bought my wedding dress, and before my wedding. I barely fit because of it, and since then grew another 2 inches. I don’t fit into my wedding dress anymore, but only in one dimension. I wonder what MeMe Roth would say about that?
Learning how to live with large breasts sucked. Having to get a new wardrobe sucked. Feeling like I have something sticking out of my chest is annoying, but I’m getting used to it. Having to alter all of my clothes sucks.
I honestly preferred being small, and find it somewhat ironic that nature gave me a boob job at 22. I feel sorry for any woman who undergoes breast implants because of the pain and annoyance that it entails.
Seriously? A badge of pride? Do you also get badges of pride for having detached earlobes and outie bellybuttons and other uncontrollable physical traits? Or is this a special kind of “pride” that comes from having the approved kind of women’s body?
I didn’t grow up in that subculture, but wouldn’t pressure to have small breasts be just as bad as the pressure to have large breasts? Sounds like the same bullshit with a cooler soundtrack.
I’m wary of the way you say fake tits ’symbolise’ this, that and the other, Amanda. They’re parts of female bodies, and I generally don’t think it’s cool to assign innate meanings to female body parts that way (even artificial ones). Yeah, in an ideal world some of the reasons people might want breast implants wouldn’t be there. Some of the reasons people diet wouldn’t be there. A lot of the reasons people identify with the indie/punk subculture and perform their subculture with their body and adopt different physical norms because of that wouldn’t be there either.
godless heathen, the company that makes the dress shirts is called “rebecca and drew” but i warn you, they’re seriously expensive.
on “what not to wear” they suggested finding dress shirts that fit in the bust and having them altered by a tailor to fit everywhere else, but that sounds so freaking time consuming.
i do imagine everything would fit better if i found a good bra, and maybe my ribs would cease hurting too.
(an aside to amanda: having grown up in the punk/indie subculture myself i sort of wonder if the preference for breast size/female appearance is regional. when i picture the quintessential texas indie girl she would be smaller chested and wearing cute plaid button down shirts and stuff like that. i’ve been in the chicago area and the punk/indie boys here seem to prefer the russ myers large breasted pin-up girl types, at least the guys i’ve been friends with which is a decent amount. i wonder if it isn’t partially based on outside factors, chicago has that whole working class pride/deep dish pizza thing, whereas austin seems more intellectual/quirky with of course a southern flavor. this is completely unimportant, but you got me thinking.)
Gee Amanda…is being able to find bras and clothes that fit an okay reason for you? Because I know for a fact it is pretty hard to find bras in a 38 almost A in a lot of stores out there.
People get implants for a whole lot of reasons, and you know what, if some of those reasons are to make them feel more attractive, what’s the big deal? People get braces and dye their hair for similar reasons, they also dress in various manners, groom in various manners, so on. And yep, people may also do it to fit in with various people…the same way some people in some groups get tattoos, or get pierced, or engage in other body modifications. Sometimes they do any and all of these things as a point of self expression.
My problem, you see, is that so many people apparently think it is all about the men, 100%, which is the way you came off, and that you assume to know so much about other people’s (well, women with implants anyway) motives & level of self esteem. Which you can’t, and you don’t. It’s arrogant and dismissive, and women take enough of that in daily life.
A woman can do a lot of things to make herself feel better about herself or change her body or take some control over it. She can work out. She can diet. She can dye her hair. She can bleach her teeth. She wear what she wants and makes her feel good or comfortable. Most people don’t make a huge deal out of this, but if she gets implants, oh shit, suddenly she has issues! I don’t understand why boobs- something that women have naturally in some form or another- become such a huge deal when altered. A fake set of tits are not the window to the soul.
Nothing about any prior comments should even remotely be considered somehow anti-big-boobs.
Why make a point of the whole small-breasts-being-a-hipper-than-thou-badge-of-pride thing then?
when i picture the quintessential texas indie girl she would be smaller chested and wearing cute plaid button down shirts and stuff like that. i’ve been in the chicago area and the punk/indie boys here seem to prefer the russ myers large breasted pin-up girl types, at least the guys i’ve been friends with which is a decent amount.
Uh, yeah but. Picturing the quintessential indie girl and picturing the kind of girl indie boys dream about fucking are two different things though. Aren’t they? I mean, if “indie girls” means anything apart from “indie boys’ girlfriends.”
.Bravissimo.com also sells clothes for the busty, including button down shirts. For cheaper than $100 — though they are a UK company so, uh, maybe not that much cheaper any more.
I can buy someone getting breast implants for herself. Lots of women ilke boobs, het women even. I’m on the small end of “busty”– 28F– and, frankly, my boobs make me happier. No real reason. Not out of smugness because I have some kind of perfect body or anything. They just do. And they make me happier when they’re bigger.
I don’t think it’s just a sex thing, although I’m not heterosexual. It’s definitely not an man-appeal thing. I think it’s maybe just that I like the curves of women’s bodies and big boobs are slightly less stigmatised and so easier to enjoy than curvy hips or thighs or butts. But that’s over intellectualising it– mainly it’s like “Whee! Boobs!” I am certain that’s not just me and I can see it as a reason to get implants for some women. Though most unlikely to be the most common reason.
BadKitty: “The personal meets the political pretty hard in this situation. For me, it was hard to tune out all the other voices and figure out what I really wanted, and I’ve defined myself as a die-hard feminist my whole life. ”
I take your point, but I’m not sure how this implicates feminism. You could do a similar analysis about a guy losing a testicle or getting excess mammary tissue.
Sure, women make more physical adjustments than men, on average. But an extreme example like this, IMO, doesn’t really tell us anything. Making adjustments after an illness may be more about not looking as if one has had the illness than about regaining femininity or masculinity. Or it may be a combination. Any statistician would reject this out of hand as an authoritative isolator of feminist sensibility.
i find myself unable to properly articulate what i meant.
i could explain myself much better if i were speaking not typing and able to gesture wildly with my hands, i promise.
as it is, i agree i phrased that like an ass.
im trying here. i guess for me picturing the quintessential indie girl involves my own sexual desires as i’m attracted to women, and i feel sort of lousy that i cant divorce my desire from what i picture. but i think she would look different based on her community, i mean, the consumate rockabilly queen is going to look different from the coolest crust punk girl, but when it comes to people who arent part of some very specific sub-genre there tends to be an overlap of styles which would be different in different places and i think what body types are common in the area might influence the way such a girl presents herself, here in the midwest you have alot of plus sized people, myself included. and i wondered if maybe part of that was regional, what is seen as positive within a given community. i had never heard much about breasts either way within the subculture with the exception of what those attracted to breasts prefered so that could have led me to misinterpret the original statement. i can say definitively that there is an emphasis in the punk/indie community on non-augmented breasts overall when it comes to elective cosmetic surgery. which i imagine is standard nationwide.
if i have to give a concrete answer, where i dont ramble incoherently and actually make some semblance of sense, im going to have to say carrie brownstein from sleater kinney is the quintessential indie girl. and my hero.
Well, I had SRS and I always assumed I would have implants at some point, but recently, I think it’s less and less likely that I will. Why? I dunno, I just feel less and less like I need them to prove my womanhood. I’m more comfortable with my own body now than I was. My best friend used to have implants and was a topless dancer in her younger years (before I knew her). Yes, I believe that women are to different extents pressured by a society that values larger breast, but… Knowing that SRS is seen as some sort of patriarchal-enforcing procedure by some (which I don’t personally believe) makes it very hard for me to see anyone else’s decision to modify their body as anything but personal. My friend was a dancer before implants and after and she said she made a LOT more money after. I also had a friend that had very large breasts and had to get a reduction because they were wrecking her back. I just… well… I just can’t throw stones. I liked Bitch, Ph.D.’s reply to the e-mail she got about the article. Mocking or praising women because of their breasts, large or small, just seems remarkably anti-feminist.
“…there’s a real lack of cute lingerie for big breasted women, which is in itself this kind of oppression. “
::fatal eyeroll:: “To the barricades!”
The above sentence will now be found as the leading example in the definition of “unmitigated hyperbole”.
Certainly no one should mock (or praise) anyone on the size of their breasts, but someone who can type the offending sentence above should definitely be mocked.
De-lurking momentarily just because this is something I care about.
I’m a 36F, completely natural, and I cannot stand it when people assume anything about me based on my chest size. Yes they are large. No I am not an idiot. And you know what? Despite the pain and annoyance, I love them. They give me a curvy hourglass figure that I adore. I think that they are pretty. And I’m not het and I don’t generally give a damn what men think. I just happen to like my boobs. And I don’t think that that makes me any less feminist than liking the fact that I have wide hips.
I also have a thing about symmetry. If I wasn’t symmetrical would I get implants? I don’t know. But if I did that would be my business and no one else’s. Harping on womens’ choices about cosmetic surgery reminds me to much of the way anti-choicers harp on womens’ abortions. Well, she should only get one if it’s for the reasons that I think are good enough. I’m sorry, but it’s her body, her choice and nobody else’s damn business.
Also, an hour long sewing/alterations course in your local fabric store is a huge help to all of the busty women out there trying to find clothes that fit. It’s a lot easier and quicker than most people think it is and the best way I know of to get clothes that fit you rather than the standard fashion industry model which is based on a 1940s just out of boot camp, in a girdle, b cup silhouette.
OK. Re-lurking now.
My theory is that they want you to feel bad about yourself no matter what you do if you’re woman who doesn’t naturally fit their ideals (not that their ideas are “natural”, but that’s a different subject).
Don’t fit the ideal? You suck. Have to take surgical/cosmetic/other steps to fit the ideal. You’re a loser.
Oo, I do like it when men come and tell us what we ought to get annoyed about and what we shouldn’t bother our pretty heads with.
Stupid unrealistic beauty standards are oppressive. The fact that most women can’t buy well-fitting clothes that are pleasant to wear is part of said stupid unrealistic beauty standard. It’s a small thing, but there are thousands of small things like it and they add up.
(34DD here, but nobody’s called me a bimbo to my face since my hair faded from blonde to light brown.)
It was sort of a sad day for me when I realized I would never really be able to wear the cute frilly bras and would forever have to wrangle my jugs into the Playtex 18 Hour Bras (which, don’t get me wrong, are a godsend–but it would be nice to have something “special” to wear for a romantic evening).
It was another sad day when I realized that most clothing manufacturers fail to realize that most women don’t make it to sizes “L” and beyond with B cups (although bravo to the ladies who do), making most of the casual summerwear completely unwearable.
Now, and I’m thinking out loud here… I realize that if I were that committed to finding clothing that fits and looks nice, I could, but I would have to invest more time and energy into the search process than I do now. And I’ve always been a bit of a freak in that department — but looking at the stories that people have posted here, both from being a little “too big” or a little “too small” (not to mention all of the weight issues) and comparing that with the stereotype that women are dizzy little shopoholics who would spend all of their time and money at the mall … something tells me that there’s probably more of a reason that women “spend so much time at the mall” than simply “We’re obsessed with pretty clothes.”
I don’t get the holier-than-thou tone of this post and I’m a fellow flat-chester who never once considered implants. How on earth do you think that passing around an asinine article about how men laugh at fake boobs is going to slay a “big cultural myth”? You’re only reinforcing that what men think about women’s bodies is the ultimate arbiter of what women do with them. You’re just shaming women.
My friends have fake boobs and hell if I want to shame my friends for that. They think my ink and hair dye are dumb. We all do what we do to get by. You got baited into drawing lines between women that are stupid and arbitrary and you took that bait. Congrats.
I’m utterly baffled by the people choosing to read this as a slam on naturally large breasts. Baffled. The *only* way you could get that reading is if you were seeking to be offended. I should have never mentioned my chest size; I was just pointing out that some people are lucky enough to be spared the social pressures for whatever reason. I do believe we’re instructed—-all the fucking time, actually—to own our privilege, admit it, etc. But man, if *admit* a privilege, acknowledge it, etc. that seems to make other angrier than mere oblivion. Fascinating.
Amanda, me and my naturually bodacious ta-tas were not offended by your article.
Oh, yes, men ran away from women with low self esteem as if from the plague.
It’s a good thing that in this neat world of ours, no one is interested in murdering women’s self esteem by, say, constant bombardment of female perfection, subliminal messages that we need to be fixed, female objectification that says to us straight on the face that unless we are fuckable we are as well as dead, etc.
Good thing that no woman ever develops low self esteem.
My issue isn’t with implants, or plastic surgery, so much as - Why “marry up?” Why marry the kind of man you have to be physically perfect to attract? What are the benefits, besides possible fame or at least sitting on your butt eating bonbons until you are traded in for a younger model?
I would think that marrying someone who likes you for who you really are would result in happier marriage. And less insecurity, because men who marry women because they have “great tits” are the ones who are prone to adultery and divorce on a whim (Y HALO THAR DONALD!).
Let’s put it this way, I would never want Victoria Beckham’s life.
My big-breasted sisters, don’t wear men’s undershirts in the summertime! Athleta.com has a cami with bra that goes up to 42DD. Floating underwires, molded cups–really decent support in a spaghetti-strap cami, and pretty comfy to boot.
“I did grow up with the benefit of the indie/punk subculture, where being kind of flat is something of a badge of pride.”
Ah, not to a complete dick or anything, but I too had the benefit of growing up in the indie/punk subculture and boys still liked tits, sometimes to my small-chested chagrin.
Not sure what indie/punk subculture has to do with anything.
I gotta say your whole first paragraph, Amanda, is dripping with self-righteous condescension, generalizations and cut-and-dried absolute subjective observations. In fact, it’s creepy. Sorry.
For me the article sounds a lot like a fasion backlash. When breast implants were relatively uncommon they were exciting for men. “Are they or aren’t they?” A guy could tell his friends about the “the chick” he dated with fake ones and they would all gather around and ask how they felt, et. It was a novel thing.
Now they are so common there is no mystery anymore, and men can now brag about their girl with natural breasts.
And this: “The thinking seems to be that even God-given 38Ds were fashioned at the expense of cerebro-cortical mass; wit and tit are inversely proportional”, just pisses me off. My tits went from AA to DD seemingly overnight when I was 12, and I am so tired of being judged by them.
“If I wasn’t symmetrical would I get implants? I don’t know. But if I did that would be my business and no one else’s. Harping on womens’ choices about cosmetic surgery reminds me to much of the way anti-choicers harp on womens’ abortions. Well, she should only get one if it’s for the reasons that I think are good enough. I’m sorry, but it’s her body, her choice and nobody else’s damn business.”
Now, THAT, I like.
Well said, Mea.
I never have liked fake tits and, truth be known, I tend to prefer the Netherlands in its natural state. Not sure what kind of asshole that makes me and don’t care.
Octagalore said:
“If it’s impossible to take any step appearance-wise without being insecure or doing it for the men, then the slippery slope includes manicures, makeup, frequent hair styling, etc. Or high heels. Or suntanning.”
Yes! Precisely! Women don’t do any of these things for themselves- but not because they’re insecure. We all do that stuff- not “for the men” precisely- but in order to signal our conformity with the culture that values us as sex and status objects for a supposed male delectation. (Individual males of any sense can and will disagree.) A woman, like myself, who spends time putting on make-up and removing hair, and who periodically shoves her feet into crippling shoes, is not insecure, stupid, or a bad feminist- she’s just conforming to the culture to the extent that she’ll benefit. But if she thinks she’s doing it “for herself,” she’s just crazy wrong.
jessislikewhoa’s discussion of the “perfect indie girl” is very illuminating here. I knew EXACTLY what he meant. The “perfect girl” will vary according to cultures and subcultures- just like a designer bag, she is a status object and subject to the vagaries of fashion. A punk kid from Austin wouldn’t listen to corporate country, and he wouldn’t want to walk around with a big-haired beauty queen. It would be kind of UNCOOL, right? And what’s cool in Austin isn’t necessarily what’s cool in Chicago, so adjust your objectification process accordingly.
I think that boob jobs are coming in for extra scorn because they are linked with cultures that most of us here find gross- strip-club culture, trophy-wife culture, teased, conservative, overtly misogynist red-state culture. Even Details thinks these cultures are dorky. But let’s not fool ourselves. No matter how punk or indie we are, we still have an ideal woman-product. There is still a “perfect girl.”
Oh, and boob jobs can kill you right away. So there’s that.
Octagalore said:
“If it’s impossible to take any step appearance-wise without being insecure or doing it for the men, then the slippery slope includes manicures, makeup, frequent hair styling, etc. Or high heels. Or suntanning.”
Yes! Precisely! Women don’t do any of these things for themselves- but not because they’re insecure. We all do that stuff- not “for the men” precisely- but in order to signal our conformity with the culture that values us as sex and status objects for a supposed male delectation. (Individual males of any sense can and will disagree.) A woman, like myself, who spends time putting on make-up and removing hair, and who periodically shoves her feet into crippling shoes, is not insecure, stupid, or a bad feminist- she’s just conforming to the culture to the extent that she’ll benefit. But if she thinks she’s doing it “for herself,” she’s just crazy wrong.
jessislikewhoa’s discussion of the “perfect indie girl” is very illuminating here. I knew EXACTLY what he meant. The “perfect girl” will vary according to cultures and subcultures- just like a designer bag, she is a status object and subject to the vagaries of fashion. A punk kid from Austin wouldn’t listen to corporate country, and he wouldn’t want to walk around with a big-haired beauty queen. It would be kind of UNCOOL, right? And what’s cool in Austin isn’t necessarily what’s cool in Chicago, so adjust your objectification process accordingly.
I think that boob jobs are coming in for extra scorn because they are linked with cultures that most of us here find gross- strip-club culture, trophy-wife culture, teased, conservative, overtly misogynist red-state culture. Even Details thinks these cultures are dorky. But let’s not fool ourselves. No matter how punk or indie we are, we still have an ideal woman-product. There is still a “perfect girl.”
Oh, and boob jobs can kill you right away. So there’s that.
I’m sorry Amanda, I adore your writing and maybe have a mad crush on your brain, but I can’t get behind this. I don’t think that women who get implants are all doing it for men any more than anyone who gets any other cosmetic alteration done. Many? I’ll say maybe, but it just seems a little off to me to claim all women do x because of y.
While not aesthetically a fan of (cosmetic) fake boobs myself, I do think that they should be seen as another body modification, not a special category. That said, there is definitely a social pressure for a certain size among women.
I’m an A cup, and my girlfriend’s a D. We tend to , especially in the course of clothes/lingerie shopping, talk about the difficulties of our respective sizes. We’re both indie types, her more hippies, and me more goth, and we’ve never felt like we had the “right” build, subculture or no. We both have issues finding clothes that fit, as fitted things are generally made with a B/C in mind. And we both have a hell of a time finding lingerie, as bigger=”practical” and really small=”cutesy” in so many designer’s minds. But overall, I’d say larger breasts definitely get the worse treatment, culturally. (This was rambly, pardon me.)
I know that the question of fake tits gets endlessly replayed and often compared to reproductive rights in the feminist blogsphere (and in RL).
But I don’t think that’s the right frame - I can’t help but think the better comparison is something closer to foot binding or circumcision (male and female) or having lower ribs removed for smaller waists or head flattening or plate lips or neck stretching or scarification or massive tattooing or toe removal or nose jobs or vagina jobs or multiple piercings or steroid use - permanent, invasive body modifications for current social and cultural fashions - that will pass in time.
In comparison — which is not really a comparison at all -
All women everywhere have always needed and always will need the full panoply of reproductive rights.
While I would never dream of imposing my skepticism of embracing permanent body modifications for passing fashion trends on anyone else via law, I think it is important feminist and humanist (overlapping but not identical categories) work to always keep questioning the social and cultural forces that ask some (but never all) to undergo permanent body alterations in order to better ‘fit in’ to whatever the temporary ideal is.
I know this is hard to do without making it sound like we/I/whomever is doing the talking are calling individuals who choose to do the body modification stupid *as individuals* when calling into question the standards they are participating in. Maybe even impossible.
But as feminists say to men, and POC to clueless white people, if you are not part of the problem - then don’t take offense when we name it and describe it. If maybe you are - well, then, you have some shit to be thinking about.
And sometimes what you have to deal with is that you can’t escape being part of the problem. I will never stop being a highly educated white woman, and I will never be able to escape the privilege that comes with that. What I do with that knowledge is what I can control - and struggle mightily to always be thoughtful about - and sometimes I fail.
Women who get - in this case - cosmetic breast enhancements - will (or did) do so for whatever basket of reasons makes the best sense to them. But that won’t stop them from *also* becoming one more example of a woman who chose to spend a lot of money on a permanent alteration to make her body closer to the current dominant ideal, and every one of us women who has not yet made that choice has to live in a world where that choice moves closer to being one she has to actively make. When that kind of surgery was an affectation of the very rich, it didn’t matter so much.
Now that it is - more or less - available to all of us if we want it badly enough - choosing not to have or to secure permanent body modifications is increasingly a fraught social and even political choice.
I think these fights are going to get way worse before they get better.
I do believe we’re instructed—-all the fucking time, actually—to own our privilege, admit it, etc. But man, if *admit* a privilege, acknowledge it, etc. that seems to make other angrier than mere oblivion. Fascinating.
Weird that in the course of bashing women who get implants, you get bashed in return for saying that you have naturally small breasts and have never felt the social pressure?
Seriously, I know you have more self-awareness than that.
Yes, you’re lucky that you weren’t teased for having large breasts starting at the age of 10. You’re very lucky that you didn’t have boys calling you “Jugs” every day until you went to high school where you could wear baggy sweatshirts to disguise yourself. Being lucky doesn’t excuse being smug about being lucky.
Women who get - in this case - cosmetic breast enhancements - will (or did) do so for whatever basket of reasons makes the best sense to them. But that won’t stop them from *also* becoming one more example of a woman who chose to spend a lot of money on a permanent alteration to make her body closer to the current dominant ideal, and every one of us women who has not yet made that choice has to live in a world where that choice moves closer to being one she has to actively make.
Here’s the problem that I and some of the other large-breasted women posting here are trying to point out: we are often treated by our fellow feminists as having made the “choice” to have large breasts even though it came from our genes. We’re blamed for conforming to a societal ideal that we didn’t create. Sometimes, we even get accused of having gotten implants even though we didn’t, because no one can believe that some women naturally have DD or larger.
That’s the other side of the coin that you’re ignoring. We’re getting judged every day by both misogynist men and “feminist” women, and it gets really, really tiresome.
orange, those camis you linked to look great, but are the cups actually supportive? the only top ive ever had with a built in bra didnt support anything and my tits just fell out of the cups as i moved. not fun.
Agreed about the perfect indie girl trope, in case there was a shred of doubt (fueled I believe by willful misinterpretation). My point is that it was a beauty standard that was easier to meet for me than the beauty standards that encourage breast implants. Not saying that’s great, in fact the opposite. Saying that I don’t deserve to preen and take personal credit for resisting the siren call of breast implants largely because I wasn’t really hearing the siren call.
Mnem, has someone really given you a hard time for having naturally big breasts? I sure wouldn’t blame “feminists” for that, especially if it’s like one woman who maybe has issues. Was it online, because I’d be interested in reading that thread, to see what the hell someone could be thinking to give someone a hard time about that. I can’t comprehend someone giving a naturally big-breasted woman anything but sympathetic murmurs for her troubles in the bra-buying and asshole-bouncing departments.
Again, my entire point in bringing it up was that there’s clearly a lot of anti-boob beauty standards, and I don’t see how women with breast implants were prevented from seeing that.
Eh, I also got sort of a smug “well I didn’t bow to the pressure so it’s ok to make fun of those who did” vibe from the article. Can’t win ‘em all.
But anyway, I have done the “What Not To Wear” thing and bought my shirts large and gotten them tailored. It really isn’t that big a deal and not terribly expensive. Having one good shirt that costs $15 more is better than cheaper shirts you don’t wear because men stare sideways at your bra through the gap in the buttons.
Of course after this many years of wearing knits starched button-down shirts just feel incredibly uncomfortable anyway. But it’s a good tactic for those who like them.
Amanda;
Women with implants are very aware of a lot of attitudes and standards and stereotypes placed upon them. Very, very aware. We hear men say “natural is better”, we hear women say everything from natural is better to “omfg, how could you DO that!” We hear all kinds of shit, and deal with all kinds of assumptions, and it gets old. Very, very old. It’s good you never faced pressure in your group to get implants. And yep, growing up most girls get teased about something, or a variety of things, and a whole lot of women do a whole lot of things to change their appearances…little things like hair dye and big things like stomach staples. But with each of those women, they deserve to be comfortable in their own bodies, and they do have the choice and autonomy to modify as they will. And if whatever they do, things little or big, if it makes them happier…why thrash it?
More on “the perfect girl.”
Here’s why the details guy is a dick. (I think we all know this instinctively.) His criticism of breast implants is not directed towards the pressure to conform, it’s directed toward the aesthetic choice. He’s reviewing an album or a movie that isn’t sufficiently “counter-culture” for his tastes. But he’s nowhere near radical enough to wrap his mind around the idea that women are fundamentally different from consumer products. The message is “don’t conform to the taste of the tacky porn culture, conform to the taste of the “Details” culture.” I think Vice Magazine once made some utterly ridiculous dolls that illustrated this point to a perfection. Idiots.
Amanda has written on the male dominated world of rock snobdom. I wonder if some of the hostility directed towards female music snobs is related to them acting as consumers/critics/arbiters of taste when their real role is as product.
Mnem, has someone really given you a hard time for having naturally big breasts?
Many people have, my entire life. It gets very tiresome to be constantly treated as though you must be stupid because, after all, you have big breasts! You’re only there to be an object of fun, and if you don’t find it funny, you must not have a sense of humor! And, yes, there have been women who assumed I must be stupid/slutty/overly competitive because my ancestors gave me the genes for large breasts.
It’s not a problem on the internet because — surprise! — no one knows I’m a D-cup unless I tell them. One of the many, many, many reasons I guard my anonymity so fiercely. It’s just not worth dealing with the harassment.
Sorry, but dismissing the problems of large-breasted women as “oh, they can’t find cute lingerie” is probably the most condescending thing I’ve heard you say, and I’ve been reading you for quite a while now.
Rei — thanks for the kind words.
However, not so sure about: “Oh, and boob jobs can kill you right away. So there’s that.” A boob job done by a reputable surgeon with full medical disclosure beforehand is less dangerous than getting into a car, much less so than a motorcycle. Would you volunteer the possibility of death to a woman biker? If not, it’s worthwhile thinking about whether there’s something else going on here.
Amanda, for the record (and I know you don’t know me from Jane, but still), I didn’t think you were saying you were better for not having large breasts or that there was anything wrong with having big breasts. I think that was plenty clear. What I was saying in my comment was that even seeing that phrasing “badge of honor” brought back a certain sting from a certain time period in my life.
But I still didn’t like the Details article. I thought it was mean. (And I’m in the camp that doesn’t really think women get boob jobs “for themselves,” because if it weren’t for external social factors, why would the size of your breasts make you feel one way or the other? But I still thought it was mean.)
And EvolutionRenegade, yes, that does include all the other body modification we do, large and small. Breast implants are on a continuum. More significant than wearing makeup. Less significant than foot-binding, but it’s all the same stuff.
chingona; oh, no choice is made in a vacuum, that is for certain…but it isn’t always all about the men either. That’s my theory anyway.
Amanda wrote:
Or maybe even to sexist pigs like me who just doesn’t like fake.
Mnemosyne, that totally bites. Being unremarkably- cupped myself, I’ve never had to cope with it, but I’ve heard enough to not be at all shocked by it. I hope no self-identified feminists were among those women, because it pains me to say “bad feminist!”
Anyway, I still really like my Details-guy-as-product reviewer trope. So, using that, perhaps some of the anger people like Mnemosyne are feeling stems from the way only the result (whether natural or surgical) is being judged? Amanda is critiquing the choice to drastically alter oneself. Details guy just seems to think that large-breasted women are akin to Nascar, Kid Rock, Donald Trump- so tacky! It’s not about questioning the woman’s choice, it’s about rejecting her product category.
octogalore: As a woman biker, people think nothing of reminding me of my impending doom.
Amanda, I have to agree with Mnem. You’re really being willfully dense here, not being willfully misinterpreted.
I can’t believe that you can just flippantly dismiss what the people here are saying with “Yeah, it sucks you can’t find cute lingerie.” It also sucks that young girls who develop early are labeled sluts and told their bodies are vulgar and that they’re just trying to tempt men (remember that Carol Lloyd piece in which she freaked out about her 3-year-old daughter’s weight because she might become some kind of middle school tart, sauntering around with tampons in her purse and breasts for all the world to see?). It sucks that those damn modesty surveys make it very clear that there is NO WAY that the large-breasted can ever conform to those ideals, and the women and girls are told they can’t conform because they’re sluts. It sucks to be a target of taunting, gossip and speculation just because you developed breasts — not to mention that it sucks that men feel like they can put their hands on you because you have a body that says “sex” to them. It sucks to be told that you must be stupid, it sucks that people feel free to make comments about your chest and your intelligence and your sluttiness. It sucks to have people ask you whether your breasts are real or bought.
In short, it sucks in a million little ways that have nothing to do with cute lingerie and have *everything* to do with how women are valued and devalued in this culture, and I’m really disappointed that you think that’s the best you have to do just because you went out of your way to say that in your subculture, a flat chest is a “badge of pride” — and then didn’t bother to examine just *why* it’s a badge of pride, who considers it a badge of pride, and what kind of message that sends to the women in your subculture (which you weren’t raised in, so I don’t see how you never had *any* pressure to the contrary) who don’t have flat chests.
nell: “But that won’t stop them from *also* becoming one more example of a woman who chose to spend a lot of money on a permanent alteration to make her body closer to the current dominant ideal, and every one of us women who has not yet made that choice has to live in a world where that choice moves closer to being one she has to actively make. ”
This is another example of something that’s already so much more problematic in many other ways that the bemoaning of the very remote likelihood (especially given the indie punk and other looks trumpeted here) of BJs becoming par for the course seems insincere.
If women were going to make decisions about presentation based on uniform availability of those decisions, we should close down shopping malls, hair salons, shoestores, jewelry stores, etc. We should not frequent expensive gyms or spas. We should not get body art at specialty shops that aren’t pro bono.
In a similar vein, we know that certain jobs which didn’t used to require grad degrees now do. That excludes women who cannot afford grad degrees. So, to avoid perpetuating and adding to an unfair standard, we should stop pursuing grad degrees. These, like boob jobs, are optional, after all. Many times they are cosmetic — we’re just doing them for job attractiveness.
Finally, not all women have access, financial or otherwise, to birth control. By utilizing this and being sexually active before we are married or otherwise want children, we are making it more difficult for these women to remain abstinent. Therefore, we must cast aside birth control.
Clearly, this is all BS. Women have every right to bodily and other autonomy in our choices. Unless one would apply the “don’t do it if it could be exacerbating an unfair standard” meme in other areas, insisting on its application in the boob job example is hypocritical. And indicative of another agenda besides fairness.
nell: “But that won’t stop them from *also* becoming one more example of a woman who chose to spend a lot of money on a permanent alteration to make her body closer to the current dominant ideal, and every one of us women who has not yet made that choice has to live in a world where that choice moves closer to being one she has to actively make. ”
This is another example of something that’s already so much more problematic in many other ways that the bemoaning of the very remote likelihood (especially given the indie punk and other looks trumpeted here) of BJs becoming par for the course seems insincere.
If women were going to make decisions about presentation based on uniform availability of those decisions, we should close down shopping malls, hair salons, shoestores, jewelry stores, etc. We should not frequent expensive gyms or spas. We should not get body art at specialty shops that aren’t pro bono.
In a similar vein, we know that certain jobs which didn’t used to require grad degrees now do. That excludes women who cannot afford grad degrees. So, to avoid perpetuating and adding to an unfair standard, we should stop pursuing grad degrees. These, like boob jobs, are optional, after all. Many times they are cosmetic — we’re just doing them for job attractiveness.
Finally, not all women have access, financial or otherwise, to birth control. By utilizing this and being sexually active before we are married or otherwise want children, we are making it more difficult for these women to remain abstinent. Therefore, we must cast aside birth control.
Clearly, this is all BS. Women have every right to bodily and other autonomy in our choices. Unless one would apply the “don’t do it if it could be exacerbating an unfair standard” meme in other areas, insisting on its application in the boob job example is hypocritical. And indicative of another agenda besides fairness.
nell: “But that won’t stop them from *also* becoming one more example of a woman who chose to spend a lot of money on a permanent alteration to make her body closer to the current dominant ideal, and every one of us women who has not yet made that choice has to live in a world where that choice moves closer to being one she has to actively make. ”
This is another example of something that’s already so much more problematic in many other ways that the bemoaning of the very remote likelihood (especially given the indie punk and other looks trumpeted here) of BJs becoming par for the course seems insincere.
If women were going to make decisions about presentation based on uniform availability of those decisions, we should close down shopping malls, hair salons, shoestores, jewelry stores, etc. We should not frequent expensive gyms or spas. We should not get body art at specialty shops that aren’t pro bono.
In a similar vein, we know that certain jobs which didn’t used to require grad degrees now do. That excludes women who cannot afford grad degrees. So, to avoid perpetuating and adding to an unfair standard, we should stop pursuing grad degrees. These, like boob jobs, are optional, after all. Many times they are cosmetic — we’re just doing them for job attractiveness.
Finally, not all women have access, financial or otherwise, to birth control. By utilizing this and being sexually active before we are married or otherwise want children, we are making it more difficult for these women to remain abstinent. Therefore, we must cast aside birth control.
Clearly, this is all BS. Women have every right to bodily and other autonomy in our choices. Unless one would apply the “don’t do it if it could be exacerbating an unfair standard” meme in other areas, insisting on its application in the boob job example is hypocritical. And indicative of another agenda besides fairness.
nell: “But that won’t stop them from *also* becoming one more example of a woman who chose to spend a lot of money on a permanent alteration to make her body closer to the current dominant ideal, and every one of us women who has not yet made that choice has to live in a world where that choice moves closer to being one she has to actively make. ”
This is another example of something that’s already so much more problematic in many other ways that the bemoaning of the very remote likelihood (especially given the indie punk and other looks trumpeted here) of BJs becoming par for the course seems insincere.
If women were going to make decisions about presentation based on uniform availability of those decisions, we should close down shopping malls, hair salons, shoestores, jewelry stores, etc. We should not frequent expensive gyms or spas. We should not get body art at specialty shops that aren’t pro bono.
In a similar vein, we know that certain jobs which didn’t used to require grad degrees now do. That excludes women who cannot afford grad degrees. So, to avoid perpetuating and adding to an unfair standard, we should stop pursuing grad degrees. These, like boob jobs, are optional, after all. Many times they are cosmetic — we’re just doing them for job attractiveness.
Finally, not all women have access, financial or otherwise, to birth control. By utilizing this and being sexually active before we are married or otherwise want children, we are making it more difficult for these women to remain abstinent. Therefore, we must cast aside birth control.
Clearly, this is all BS. Women have every right to bodily and other autonomy in our choices. Unless one would apply the “don’t do it if it could be exacerbating an unfair standard” meme in other areas, insisting on its application in the boob job example is hypocritical. And indicative of another agenda besides fairness.
Octagalore, Kanye West’s mom JUST died. Top of my brain.
Cars, motorcycles, or anything else that transports you or is just damn fun- that has nothing to do with surgery for the sole purpose of altering your appearance (and by that, I mean a woman’s appearance). Sure, people of both genders can get on a bike to look hot, but they can also do it to get to work or enjoy the speed. So, I’m afraid it’s kind of a specious comparison.
The day I say “Women are jumping out of planes in order to conform more fully with the beauty standard” then you can come back and throw it in my face.
Agree with Rei. Breast implants are a source of debate more than other forms of body modification precisely because surgery is, by its very definition, dangerous.
As an aside, I tend to fall into the patriarchy-blamers camp, in as much as I think the decision to have a breast augmentation (and ONLY augmentation, I’m not talking about reduction or reconstruction) has much more to do than patriarchal oppression and pressure to conform to the beauty standard than with any personal reason that the patient may have, although I do grant that the patient’s personal preferences may have some influence on the decision. Just a lesser influence. I think of it more in terms of a “preponderance of the evidence” standard (51% vs. 49%) than a “beyond a shadow of a doubt” standard (100% vs. 0%).
Rei, come on. Dig a little deeper. Wasn’t it obvious that my caveats about full medical disclosure and reputable surgeon were in reference to exactly that? West’s mother had a heart condition, her previous surgeon refused to operate on her, and the guy who did had a number of malpractice claims. Also, a tummy tuck is much more radical than a boobjob, if we’re drawing lines, which I’d prefer to avoid.
Also, if “is just damn fun” is your requirement for “feminist approved boob jobs,” then mine qualifies. Too bad my husband prefers the before pics, but then again it wasn’t about what he wanted.
Hey, just realized that my comment #86 sounds really condescending. Sorry. No idea how that happened.
Anyway, Mezosub, though I do think that implants are dangerous, I stated earlier that the real reason they come in for more criticism from certain publications and websites is that they are associated with cultures that said publications and websites despise. See comment #70. Only your radical feminists will argue that women shouldn’t conform to a beauty ideal. Everyone else argues about what beauty ideal they should conform with.
And I believe that’s “somewhat different beauty ideal” is what Amanda meant by “badge of pride.” The phrasing was perhaps unfortunate.
Octagalore, you seized on the throwaway comment at the end of my post. I’d much prefer you responded to the substance. There’s no such thing as a “feminist approved boob job.” If there was, how would I know? I’m not on the board. (There is no board!) But there’s also no such thing as a body modification that a woman undertakes for “herself” or “for the fun of it.”
For the record, I probably would have gone in for surgery if I had a substantial size discrepancy. But it wouldn’t have been remotely comparable to motorcycling, which is undertaken for the process, not the end result. I mean, unless you actually enjoy the process of having your body cut open and bits shoved into it. Which… hey. Whoah. I would really have nothing to say to that.
What puzzles me, honestly, is that there’s this assumption that we can’t question the choices of women who decide to get breast implants because there’s the chance that yes, those choices were the best for these women. And, granted, I do not for one moment believe in banning plastic surgery and I’m sure some women’s breast augmentation improved their overall quality of life.
What this makes me think of, though, if that if we must not look at breast implants critically how should we deal with cosmetic vaginoplasty?
I’m not at all talking about sex reassignment surgery, which I believe is always valid, or corrective surgery. I’m talking about pure cosmetics: labia tucks, reconstruction of the hymen, “designer vaginas”, etc.
Sure, some of these procedures might stem from the woman’s desire alone, but I have my honest doubts. Women are pushed to have the perfect body, the perfect features, and now the perfect sexual organs.
I think most of us can agree that the stimulus behind elective cosmetic vaginoplasty is, at the very least, coming from a damaging, coercive, patriarchal ideal.
Why can’t the same be said of breast augmentation?
Now, I don’t think the two are on the same level, but I do think that there are similar patriarchal forces behind them.
Disclaimer: I say this as someone who is satisfied with her pierced, scarred, slightly lopsided, 34Cs, so you’re free to take it with a grain (or more) of salt.
I hope so. I only know of the ones who say they “like real breasts” but whose standards require that “real breasts” look just like the ones with (obvious) implants.
Not only don’t you need a license if you have a minister in Connecticut, but in Alabama, Colorado, Washington DC, Iowa, Kansas, Montana, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Texas and Utah you don’t even need a minister/rabbi/whatever. You just live together for long enough and represent yourself as married, and — poof, the law considers you married. (Oh, and in New Hampshire the law doesn’t consider you married in this fashion unless one of you dies, in which case the other inherits as if you were married, including, I expect, the spousal advantages for federal estate-tax purposes.)
So I don’t think Connecticut is really an outlier at all. But I do wonder what would happen if two members of the same sex in a common-law state (that hasn’t passed a pro-bigotry amendment) were to follow that path toward “legitimizing” their union…
oops, I am terribly sorry. Wrong thread.
mael: people can question all they want, its when they simply assume or never believe a single word that comes out of the mouth of the person answering that it gets frusterating and ugly.
rei: a lot of people get scarification, tattoos, piercings and other sorts of implants, tongue spiltings and other such things because of a personal preference as well as a form of expression, and some of those things do involve getting cut open as well.
as for the danger involved…well, I am a fan of fast cars myself. I looked at getting a GTO the same way I looked at getting implants…I wanted both, and I wasn’t going to let fear stop me from getting either. After all, I could slip in the shower and break my neck on any given morning…might as well enjoy myself and do what I enjoy doing and modify my body as I wish, just incase that happens some day.
I’m not sure I agree with you here.
To speak to the motocycle issue, there’s more reasons to ride a motorcycle than the simple experience of having done so. One can also ride because one wants to be a person who rides, or wants to be seen as a person (or ‘the sort of person’) who rides. There’s a whole set of symbols associated with riding a motorcycle.
Similarly, it seems entirely possible that there are reasons to get a boob job outside the literal fact of the end result. Maybe someone does it as a symbol of… something. Survival of breast cancer. Rejection of the physicality they were born with (similar to tattoos and piercings for some people, extending as far as tying into gender dysphoria and SRS). Correction of an aesthetic they dislike in their body.
Women, I agree with mael, are pushed to make aesthetic judgments about their bodies that are often destructive and unfair. But making aesthetic judgments about bodies, one’s own and others’, is pretty normal and not unhealthy in moderation. Part of sexism and the patriarchy is that women are told to do so to an unhealthy degree (and then judged for doing so).
NBarnes, I agree that the “end result” vs “process” differentiation here is questionable.
Rei, you are saying that in motorcycling, the “process” is riding whereas with boobjobs, the “process” is the operation. Wrong. The process is walking around with a physicality that pleases you afterwards. The surgery is like the buying of the motorcycle.
Also, what’s really wrong with doing something for the end result? Law school, cleaning up your room, exercising, pregnancy — many of these things are worthwhile and done primarily for the end result (although, granted, many people enjoy law school and pregnancy more than I did). Using that as a test specifically to discredit boob jobs is pretty transparent.
Here’s the problem that I and some of the other large-breasted women posting here are trying to point out: we are often treated by our fellow feminists as having made the “choice” to have large breasts even though it came from our genes.
First, as I haven’t offered up my own band or cup size, you have no idea which end of the scale I fall on, or, as a result, any notion of what kind of life experiences as a female mammary gland owner I might have.
Second, this is my point. Today - in the U.S. in the first decade of the 21st century - observers are able to presume a choice in womens’ boob size, and then make judgments about that ‘choice’ in the same way we do about piercings or hairstyle or clothing choice. This is *why* I, personally, am skeptical of embracing a world view that treats bodies, and particularly female bodies, as infinitely mailable to prevailing fashion trends.
We’re blamed for conforming to a societal ideal that we didn’t create. Sometimes, we even get accused of having gotten implants even though we didn’t, because no one can believe that some women naturally have DD or larger.
Well - yeah - some people, even some self-named feminists, are assholes. People who are into public criticism of people they don’t know well will always find something. Today, boob size, shape, bouancy - it’s all modifiable and so all up for public discussion. Personally - I wish for a world where boob size is not considered an optional fashion statement, with all that brings with it.
That’s the other side of the coin that you’re ignoring. We’re getting judged every day by both misogynist men and “feminist” women, and it gets really, really tiresome.
I’m not ignoring it - this is my point. Boob are currently being treated more like fashion accoutrement’s than basic body parts. Personally, I think that kinda sucks.
Amanda: sorry to come across so snotty out of the blue like that. “My point is that it was a beauty standard that was easier to meet for me than the beauty standards that encourage breast implants. Not saying that’s great, in fact the opposite. Saying that I don’t deserve to preen and take personal credit for resisting the siren call of breast implants largely because I wasn’t really hearing the siren call.”
That makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up.
Also, if I may chime in here with a potential reason why a woman may get breast implants purely for her: pregnancy can do a number on breasts. In my case, I was not only smaller afterwards, but — well, they just didn’t look as pretty after going from barely a B on a good day to nearly a D and back again. I gained and lost 75 during my pregnancy. When the weight was gone and I took at look at my breasts, I cried.
During sex, I’ve enjoyed my breasts far more than I bet my partners did. Leave them out of the equation and nothing much happens below the belt, if you get my drift. Now I found myself ashamed of them. The problem was with me, as my partner assured me over and over again HE had no problem with them. Still, I considered implants because I wanted MY body back the way it was.
One could say, if breasts weren’t such a big deal in this culture, I might not have cared so much.
I don’t know tho: I like my ankles and feet a lot, my arms, my neck. I’d miss these other favorite areas also if they changed in any way.
I really like the last two paragraphs of Kim’s post as an excellent short summation of the problem.
Just wanted to claify: my little tale of woe aside, if a woman decides to have implants Just Because, well, that’s okay by me also. I don’t feel there are Good Reasons and Bad Reasons to have them.
I once nearly shot my mouth off about how I felt implants were basically just bullshit, the product of a misogynist culture, etc. Then I learned the woman I nearly shot my mouth off to HAD implants. Was I glad I held my tongue as I hadn’t meant to hurt/anger/insult anyone — I was well, ready to make a Big Feminist Noise, dammit!
This made me rethink implants, that maybe I didn’t know what I was talking about. Over the course of this, I basically decided it wasn’t my business.
Just wanted to say that.
if you meant i had willfully misinterpreted you, i have to plead otherwise. your statement really had gotten me thinking and i wanted to kno what you thought. i think basically we agreed that within said subculture there isnt a huge emphasis overall on breasts. i enjoy reading the things you write and i have a ton of respect for you and wouldnt misinterpret you except unintentionally.
oh, and to Rei who thought i was a he, nah, im a jessi with a vagina.
one of my best friends in junior high developed full D cups at age 11 and was already at that age 5′6′’. she had just finished the 5th grade, and yet everywhere she went she had adult men propositioning her and making vulgar remarks about her body. i remember how she would cry. her self esteem was destroyed by the behavior of her body, something she had no control over. and i guess thinking of this whole thing in that context i can understand women getting implants. i imagine, and i think someone said this upthread, that even better than implants would be the ability to live in a world where we aren’t constantly treated as tho were on display like show ponies.
i was lucky as my breasts stayed a nice average c until i hit my mid twenties at which point my whole body seemed to go through a second puberty, i started developing hips finally after having teenage boy hips my whole life, i got adult acne (clearing up now thanks to african black soap, aloe, and shea butter, thank god/dess), i gained 15 pounds, and my breasts grew 2 cup sizes in a year. now i’m a DD and i still havent figured out how to dress this new body.
It’s probably already been said, but I haven’t finished wading through all the comments.
I am seriously perplexed at all the self-proclaimed feminists showing up to call Amanda a meanie because she pointed out that boob implants are, in general,* NOT A FEMINIST CHOICE. Do feminists get boob implants? Yes. But it’s still not a fucking feminist choice.
I love my larger breasts– and I admit that a large part of that does come from the potent sexual power contained within them. I love to wear makeup, and high heels, and to get my hair done. I love to dress in ways that make me sexually desirable. I am a feminist. BUT NONE OF THESE CHOICES ARE FEMINIST CHOICES. They are culturally informed choices that reek of the pressures placed on all women to be visually appealing. And you know what? I accept that this is my capitulation to patriarchy– we all capitulate to the patriarchy in some ways because it’s easier than fighting it all the damn time.
But you don’t see me whining that Amanda is “shaming” women who choose to capitulate to the patriarchy by getting fake tits and wagging her finger at them because she points out that IT’S NOT A FEMINIST CHOICE.
*for those intent on willfully misreading, that means that in the aggregate it is not a feminist choice, but on an individual level circumstances may make it at least a neutral choice.
And just to add:
The comparison to reproductive rights is specious. I fully support a woman’s legal right to get an abortion at any time during her pregnancy. That does not mean I am not allowed to make my own judgments about her reason. I could think her reason is ridiculous, and say it, and it would still not change my support for her to get an abortion. That does not make me a bad feminist.
It’s the same with breast implants. I do not favor legislation to prevent women from getting implants or place obstacles to their right to do so. That does not mean that I have to pretend that their reasons for getting them are just as valid as another person’s reasons. I am allowed to judge the woman who gets implants to conform to beauty standards differently than the woman getting reconstructive surgery. What would make me an asshole is if I decided to say that so and so is better than so and so because if it.
Thank god history mom showed up and got to the point. All the reasons people are giving for getting implants “for themselves” are so obviously rationalisatons: women get the “right” boobs due to societal pressure. God knows we shouldn’t shame them for internalising patriarcal shit. As history mom pointed out (and, for fuck’s sake, someone is always forced to point out when these discussions crop up–I’m dying for the day when we can just bloody take it as read), we all make our deals with the patriarchy.
But jesus h christ in a fucking sidecar, own up to it instead of making up lies about how “it’s all for you.” When I put on the eyeliner, I do occasionally try to kid myself that I’m doing it just becauase I like the way it looks, but that’s bullshit: I do it because it makes me look “nicer” and, of course, younger. It is not a feminist choice.
I do have to say, though, that using an article written in an assholish, sneering way that bashes women for what society puts them under constant pressure to do, as an example of a ray of hope doesn’t score that high on feminist points, either.
“Amanda, I have to agree with Mnem. You’re really being willfully dense here, not being willfully misinterpreted.
I can’t believe that you can just flippantly dismiss what the people here are saying with “Yeah, it sucks you can’t find cute lingerie.” It also sucks that young girls who develop early are labeled sluts and told their bodies are vulgar and that they’re just trying to tempt men (remember that Carol Lloyd piece in which she freaked out about her 3-year-old daughter’s weight because she might become some kind of middle school tart, sauntering around with tampons in her purse and breasts for all the world to see?). It sucks that those damn modesty surveys make it very clear that there is NO WAY that the large-breasted can ever conform to those ideals, and the women and girls are told they can’t conform because they’re sluts. It sucks to be a target of taunting, gossip and speculation just because you developed breasts — not to mention that it sucks that men feel like they can put their hands on you because you have a body that says “sex” to them. It sucks to be told that you must be stupid, it sucks that people feel free to make comments about your chest and your intelligence and your sluttiness. It sucks to have people ask you whether your breasts are real or bought.
In short, it sucks in a million little ways that have nothing to do with cute lingerie and have *everything* to do with how women are valued and devalued in this culture, and I’m really disappointed that you think that’s the best you have to do just because you went out of your way to say that in your subculture, a flat chest is a “badge of pride” — and then didn’t bother to examine just *why* it’s a badge of pride, who considers it a badge of pride, and what kind of message that sends to the women in your subculture (which you weren’t raised in, so I don’t see how you never had *any* pressure to the contrary) who don’t have flat chests. ”
ayup. and say: d’you think Althouse also sees her less than zaftigness as a “badge of pride?” d’you think Jessica would’ve had it coming if she -had- gotten implants rather than y’know just -stand- there, having tits?
and yeah, saline splashing around like the sea is fucking hilarious. i’ll tell my Mom; at least she’d probably say it beats the sounds and sights and feelings she went through with the cancer. is that okay? did she earn her “I suffered enough to have reconstructive surgery” supra-feminist badge?” because, you know, “body modification when it’s only to make yourself fit in and look normal, but NOT just for your own pleasure,” that’s -totally- feminist. and also punk! whoever heard of a punk who was into bodymod for its own sake!
I can’t imagine why it’d be any of my business how anyone else does or doesn’t modify her own damn body.
–slip. oh jesus hrist, crys T. yes, that’s right; you know -every- other woman’s mind better than they do because Men Control Everything and that’s the way it is. no, there couldn’t -possibly- be -any- other reason. women can’t like artifice! women can’t make any “choice!” because they can’t think for themselves ! except some women, sometimes, apparently! and they do all the thinking for the rest of us poor deluded slobs, too, THANK YOU , GOD, i’m so glad to know that when -i=- put on eyeliner it’s fot the men, never mind that -i don’t fucking like men-. i have no taste, no preferences, no culture; it’s -all- the men; except for the fucking crunchy granola wimns’ culture shit because that’s VERY DIFFERENT FOR FUCK’S SAKE.
you know, if someone tells you -she- feels a different way about something than you do? that doesn’t mean she’s “lying;” that means -she and you are two. different. people.- Yeah? You; her. You; her. It’s NOT -that- hard, -is- it?
christ, i give p.
history mom: sure, you’re allowed. and other people are allowed to tell you to fuck off in their turn; and ain’t life grand.
“I could think her reason is ridiculous,
and say it, and it would still not change my support for her to get an abortion. That does not make me a bad feminist. It’s the same with breast implants.”
I think Belle’s “and other people are allowed to tell you to fuck off” is very apt here.
Because, really, what is your point in “saying it”? Do you think the person you’re saying it too is going to think “wow, this person suggesting I’m a tool of the patriarchy has completely changed my mind about something I chose to do.” Wrong. It will just anger and/or hurt her. It would serve no effective purpose.
That’s why saying it would, in fact, make you a bad feminist. Because secondguessing women’s choices with no other reasonable, productive goal is ineffective policing rather than effective feminism.
You want to do something effective? Then think about the root goal of all this. Women making decisions that are about making themselves happy. To do or not do a beauty ritual are end results of such thought processes, why not concern yourself with the thought processes rather than attempt to police an already-made decision that you can never get inside and parse?
Getting involved in the process, talking to young women, sharing your guidance about independence and self determination, writing about these topics, etc. That to me is good feminism. Stating your opinion after the fact is about self justification — period. That ain’t going to get you the good feminist badge, in my book anyway.
You both assume I am saying it to that person’s face. Umm…no. I was raised with better manners than that and in my personal life I scrupulously avoid shaming other women for their decisions. Alternatively, I’m not going to pretend that makes it a feminist choice just to protect their precious fee fees.
When I said that I can voice my judgment of someone’s choice to get implants– or any of the thousand other little things women do to function in a patriarchal culture– I meant that I can come on a blog such as this and say that I think certain decisions are not good ones, not feminist ones, and THAT DOES NOT MAKE ME AN ASSHOLE OR MEAN I WANT TO STOP SOMEONE FROM MAKING THAT CHOICE. You can have all the rationalizations you want, but it still won’t make it a feminist choice. Sorry, but thems the breaks.
Is it clear now? Or will y’all keep up this whinging a bit longer trying to pretend that this culture has no influence on your decisions?
Sorry… now that we’re viewing your statements through the clear-eyed gaze of “not to their FACES,” I’m still not overwhelmed by what you refuse to engage with: WHAT BENEFIT, FEMINIST OR OTHERWISE, CAN COME FROM YOUR UNINFORMED JUDGMENTS.
For one thing, at least two women on this thread have BJs, so you are saying it to our online faces, sugar.
More importantly, why? Does blogging your opinion make it more effective? Are you convincing anyone that our personal reasons for doing something are “rationalizations” for caving in to the patriarchy? I don’t see that happening, do you?
Finally, who is claiming BJs are a feminist choice? Does every choice a feminist makes have to be specifically “feminist?” Ideally, her choices should be HER CHOICES. And you can’t demonstrate that this one isn’t.
Octogalore: Seriously, have you read most of the responses? Because I saw a lot of rationalizations and proclamations about how some women “just do it for themselves uninformed by our cultural socialization.” My response was “bullshit, I’m calling you out on it.”
Part of figuring out a feminist response to the question of how we respond to cultural messages that make non-medically necessary boob jobs attractive is to unpack the various reasons women use to be okay with their decision. I am a woman and have had to grapple with my own body issues and have known many women with fake boobs (I live in a mecca for boob jobs), so it is not an uninformed opinion to suggest that some women get fake tits for bad reasons– no different than my decision to wear make-up, high heels (the kinds of things discussed endlessly on feminist blogs without this much opposition to the premise that we can critique women’s justifications for capitulating to the patriarchy as a way to figure out how to counter the strong cultural messages we all receive). That is the point you are determined to miss.
We all make judgments about what other people do all the time. Many of us come to blogs like this to discuss our judgments of other people’s choices and usually few people have an issue or whine that talking about our personal opinions just doesn’t serve a feminist purpose.
Just because I said that a woman’s choice bears the weight of her cultural conditioning does not mean I deny she made a choice or has the right to make it. It also doesn’t mean I just have to smile and nod and pretend all choices are valid feminist choices. If that offends you, then really it’s your problem.
And don’t ever call me sugar. I have not used misogynistic diminutive phrases in addressing you, if you are truly a feminist I would expect the same courtesy from you.
Um, h_m, your “will y’all keep up this whinging a bit longer” was what prompted “sugar,” so if you’d like to turn this discussion into a tit for tat, so to speak, have at it. And turn the misogyny radar a little to the left of “paranoid,” I use sweetener nicknames for both genders.
Further, your incredulousness as to my reading comprehension skills notwithstanding, I continue fail to see how you are qualified to read the minds of the women who’ve commented here.
Of course it’s fine to suggest some women get fake boobs for bad reasons, just like it’s fine to suggest some women wear heels or drive cars after a chardonnay for bad reasons. That’s not what you’re doing here. There’s a distinction between discussing an abstract linkage that operates in some cases and pointing your finger at specific women.
I will hereby cease asking you about the practical utility of “critiquing women’s justifications” for beauty choices. Obviously, your admission of discussing such things “endlessly” on feminist blogs suggests the frequency with which you actually grapple with pedestrian issues like real life benefits of your so-called feminism.
well, gosh, h-mom, i’m -allowed- to -judge- your behavior as assholic, aren’t i? i mean, it’s just my (non-feminist) -opinion.- stop -silencing- me, dammit. i mean, just because you -think- you’re not being an asshole doesn’t mean you aren’t, you know. not that it’s your fault, of course; assholery is a tool of the Patriarchy.
p.s. just because you don’t believe in the Baby Flying Spaghetti Patriarchal Asshole-Devouring Cthulhu doesn’t mean It doesn’t believe in -you.- them’s the breaks. don’t shoot the messenger!
p.p.s. i’ll pray for you.
This isn’t a feminist analysis; it’s a slur & a clumsy attempt to condescend, revealing in ways that couldn’t have been intended. It ascribes an inferior form of life to women who value big(ger) breasts enough to get implants. If the criticism were meant to be taken seriously, the underlying questions of agency and structure would have been handled more thoughtfully. If it were a serious feminist analysis, there’d be at least some effort to show that the women in question really do lack independence of mind worthy of respect, really do unreflectively take their values & self-understanding from the patriarchal culture that conditioned them, including in ways that other women have the mental strength to reject, & really do know their minds so little, or are such abject liars, that they claim to act autonomously when they don’t. Either that or they’re acceptably rational & autonomous, but correctly intuit that, given the constraints they face, their capacities are so much more limited than other women’s that they’re driven to do things to themselves that other women don’t have to stoop to. Either way, wouldn’t want to be ‘em.
There’s nothing peculiarly feminist about this. It reproduces familiar, crude stereotypes, which nobody pretends are feminist. It satisfies the adolescent need to confirm (paraleptically, if we’re feeling gracious) the superiority of our tastes, bodies, & forms of life. It projects a status hierarchy that advantages the ‘critics’, their milieus & unenhanced breasts, & allows them to feel righteous about it. But these are bad, unfeminist reasons to pass judgment on other women. It’s too transparent & too meretricious to persuade, & dressing it up as some kind of feminist home truth is the intellectual equivalent of fake tits.
history mom:
I don’t think a single women here with implants (I think there are only two of us here who’ve admitted to it) ever said it was a FEMINIST choice….i think we said it was OUR choice. There is a difference. I don’t think getting fake tits is Feminist choice. I do think it was my choice to do so…no man was there with gun in hand forcing me to go under the knife, and sure, no choice is made in a vacuum, but ulitimately the decision was mine.
ANd just over all…Why yes, absolutely, women, feminists, are allowed to examine and question the practice of getting breast implants. Certainly. I wonder and question why people like sea food or wear diamonds. You are absolutely free to examine and question. I don’t think anyone has a problem with that.
But, if you happen to ignore or utterly discount every single answer a person who has implants gives you regarding your questions, roll over them with your own rhetoric and assumtion, blanket statements and preconceptions…you know, your universal truth for all women… do not expect others to think too highly of you or your feminism. The whole this feminism is right and this practice is wrong bullshit then becomes oppressive in it’s own right. If what’s best for women is what you say it is and damn anyone and everyone who disagrees…that’s called dicatorship. Point is, you do not and cannot know the minds of other women. You do not and cannot know their reasons. You do not and cannot speak for them. You do not and cannot know what it is like to be them.
How hard is that to grasp?
And when you dismiss any and every woman who doesn’t fall in with your universal, you aren’t really listening. You aren’t really here to hear or learn or discuss or undersstand anything, because your mind is already made up. You can act for all the world like you know the ultimate truth and motivations of every woman who goes under the knife. It still doesn’t make you right. And yes, women face pressure in the world, but they also have a right and a choice to attempt to be as comfortable and happy in the world as it is now as they would like.
This whole thing, this is part of what is wrong with feminism. People so broke with their own imperious righteousness and intellect they can’t even afford to pay attention. Women who can’t be bothered to hear the voices of women who aren’t just like them and assume such simplistic views of their motivations as universal truth make me sick, really. It’s dismissive, it’s arrogant, it’s rude, it’s othering, it’s divisionary. Seems like we’re still doing the good smart girl thing and the bad dumb girl thing even after all these years!
Amazing, that.
Wondering: is my friend, who’s as dyke as they come, also a blind and deluded victim and of Teh Patriarchy because she has fake tits? Or does she get to keep her Feminist Card because she obviously didn’t do it to attract men, being queer and all?
Funny how getting a fake set of tits is decried as catering to the male gaze and male approval, but an article that ridiculizes women with fake boobs is “a nice reminder that fake tits can actually be a huge turn-off to straight men who value women’s independence or confidence.” Great. As a queer woman with ‘natural’ breast, I feel so much better about myself now: not only do I get to keep my Feminist Card for not having fake boobs, but I also won’t kill the woodies of the Feminist Enlighted Straight Dudes.
Wondering: is my friend, who’s as queer as they come, also a deluded victim of Teh Patriarchy for getting a set of fake tits? Or does she get to keep her Feminist Card since she obviously didn’t do it to get male approval?
Funny how women who have fake tits are decried as catering to the male gaze in search of male approval, but an article that ridiculizes women who get fake boobs is “a nice reminder that fake tits can actually be a huge turn-off to straight men who value women’s independence or confidence”. Great. As a queer woman with ‘natural’ boobies, I am so relieved that I not only get to keep my Feminist Card, but i ALSO won’t kill the woodies of those Feminist Enlighted Straight Dudes.
Wondering: is my friend, who’s as queer as they come, also a deluded victim of Teh Patriarchy for getting a set of fake tits? Or does she get to keep her Feminist Card since she obviously didn’t do it to get male approval?
Funny how women who have fake tits are decried as catering to the male gaze in search of male approval, but an article that ridiculizes women who get fake boobs is “a nice reminder that fake tits can actually be a huge turn-off to straight men who value women’s independence or confidence”. Great. As a queer woman with ‘natural’ boobies, I am so relieved that I not only get to keep my Feminist Card, but i ALSO won’t kill the woodies of those Feminist Enlighted Straight Dudes.
Wondering: is my friend, who’s as queer as they come, also a deluded victim of Teh Patriarchy for getting a set of fake tits? Or does she get to keep her Feminist Card since she obviously didn’t do it to get male approval?
Funny how women who have fake tits are decried as catering to the male gaze in search of male approval, but an article that ridiculizes women who get fake boobs is “a nice reminder that fake tits can actually be a huge turn-off to straight men who value women’s independence or confidence”. Great. As a queer woman with ‘natural’ boobies, I am so relieved that I not only get to keep my Feminist Card, but i ALSO won’t kill the woodies of those Feminist Enlighted Straight Dudes.
Women get elective breast implants, other women blame it on men…sigh
My sister in law decided to get implants after her husband died. She is 40ish and runs half marathons. I tried all manor of persuasion to talk her out of it. Push came to shove,(not literally),and it turns out its none of my damn business. OK
DB: I can answer that for you, channeling through my (natural) (ample) ass:
Yes, of course she’s still blinded by the Patriarchy, and of course it’s ultimately about men, because EVERYTHING Bad (which fake tits indubitably are) is for, by, and about men. and particularly anything that’s
1) remotely smacking of artifice for “beauty’s” sake,
2) femme
3) sexual in any way other than touching pinkies and engaging in the Serious Clear-Eyed Lesbian Gaze ™
Even if your friend thinks her fake tits make her happy, even if it makes her smile when other women love the way she looks (or when she herself loves the way she looks and feels, all by herself), she’s deluded. And, she’s -hurting women.- Somewhere, -right now-, a -man- is sitting and -wanking- to the fantasy image of pneumatic saline-assisted girl on girl action. And as long as that’s happening -anywhere,- wimmin, we cannot rest.
We cannot rest.
The Revolution will never happen until all womyn can struggle free of Patriarchal influences. Probably the -best- way to do that is to sit adoringly at the Birk’d feet of a small, vocal clatch of ex-nuns, fundamentalists, and bluenosed elitist conservative mens’ daughters, the -real- lesbians, i.e. the ones who never talk about sex except to explain how disgusting and dangerous it all is; just ask all the straight women who hang on their every pronouncement, at least the ones that suit them, anyway.
The problem with your friend, DB, is that she doesn’t understand the proper role of the lesbian-feminist (who is the only worthy kind of lesbian and/or feminist): a cutely cranky asexual-type Mentor for the straight gals, who wish to learn how they, too, can be so wise and pure as to be free from the taint of menmenMEN.
in the meantime, though, we can all bond by never fucking shutting up about them. what they -do- want, what they -dn’t- want, even if we’re now reacting to it instead of adhering to it; because either way, what -we- want isn’t important; what -they- want is all that matters. the Men that is. who’d you think?
Oops. Sorry for the multiple posts there.
You’re right belledame: my friend is such a tool of Teh Patriarchy. But now, my question is: what’s worse - fake tits or a fake cock? I rather like straping on my fake cock when I get some action, but I guess that’s bad too, right?
This comment is not on whether or not women with fake breasts can call themselves feminists, of course they can.
This comment is not on whether or not women’s medical choices are influenced by patriarchal society, of course they are.
This comment is about Amanda’s choice to recommend a misogynistic Details article that bashes both women with fake tits and women with large tits. She said
The article is neither funny, nor a “nice reminder” of anything other than the fact that sexist assholes have large audiences. And Amanda’s choice to not only link to it, but also to recommend it makes me wonder what her motives are.
Belledame222: You are entitled to your opinion that I am an asshole. Some will agree, some will disagree, but it’s all good. I’m curious why you’ve decided to invoke the strawfeminist and suggest that those who disagree with you are anti-sex. Truly bizarre indeed.
RenegadeEvoution: I know for a fact that I said that *in general* breast implants are not a free choice, but a choice made in the context of patriarchy– that means in the aggregate, not necessarily on the individual level, the decision is made because this is cultural message women receive about ideal breasts.
And it’s really nice to say “we should take everyone’s word that their motives are perfectly clear to them” but the reality is that sometimes we are not the most objective observers of our own reasoning. Does it mean I interfere with someone’s choices? Nope. Does it mean I think they are less feminist or just less? Nope and I never suggested such a thing. And on a blog that examines culture with a critical eye, you cannot expect your reasoning to be taken at face value. You should expect to be challenged if your reasoning appears flawed. I am not being despotic, you are just unwilling to be challenged. I have opened myself to challenge and critique on this blog many times, and I expect to continue to have what I say closely critiqued. It doesn’t threaten me in the least.
General: The comments suggesting that lesbians with implants disprove the thesis of patriarchal influence is also confusing to me. While lesbians may not be trying to attract the male gaze, they were still raised in the same patriarchal culture that fetishizes big breasts as the rest of us het women. That some internalize that and get boob implants doesn’t disprove the thesis at all.
It’s funny, I’ve noticed that posts about boob implants, animal rights, veganism, and porn bring out the defensiveness to the nth degree.
historu_mom: of course a queer woman with fake tits doesn’t disproved the general idea that we all live in a heteronormative society, which, among other things, ‘values’ big boobs on female-identified bodies. It does however questions the idea that “Fake tits symbolize two general themes that directly conflict with [women’s independence and confidence]—low self-esteem and dependence on men” or that women who get fake tits do so to ‘marry up’ or other crap that has been suggested here.
And pardon me, but I don’t really see how linking and recommending an article that basically say ‘girls with fake tits are dump and unatractive’ is examining culture with a critical eye, even less so with a feminist eye. Unless of course by ‘feminist critical eye’ you mean ‘you’re a tool of Teh Patriarchy for getting fake boobs and see these straight dudes agree with me’.
I’m not defending the article. I thought it was just another example of the double-bind for women– if we don’t live up to unrealistic ideals, then we are belittled for it, but if we do manage to approximate the ideal we are ridiculed for being stupid and not really sexually appealing after all.
I think the fact that queer women also feel pressure to conform to these norms for other reasons besides attracting men demonstrates how many levels this kind of conditioning works on. Some women get breast implants because they like big breasts, some to have more proportional breasts, some to lift sagging breasts, and probably a hundred other reasons. And at their root, most of those reasons cannot be disentangled from the cultural messages women are bombarded with on a daily basis fetishizing big breasts. That’s the critical feminist eye I am talking about.
Sure enough, the desire for bigger/perkier/more proportional/etc. boobs is not coming out of a vacuum. But what is? This kind of ‘analysis’, which shame women who get fake tits, is based on the assumption that there are some choices that are less inflected by this cultural context than others, that some women are in a position to make choices that are coming from a mythical space above or beyond the current heteronormative order.
And refusing to see any other factors than the pressure to conform in women’s decision to get fake tits also assumes power to be only repressive, and as such denies any space for resistance. Call me deluded if you want, but I’d rather believe that there is space for something else than falling victim to Teh Patriarchy by getting fake boobs or wearing the ‘badge of pride’ of being flat.
There’s a difference in my opinion between questioning the politics of bodies in our current heteronormative context and shaming women who for whatever reasons decide to get fake boobs. The former open up space to some productive re-thinking. The later sounds awfully similar to what women hear all the time by Teh Oppressor. This post falls in the later category. I prefer my feminism to be of the former category.
history mom-
“And it’s really nice to say “we should take everyone’s word that their motives are perfectly clear to them” but the reality is that sometimes we are not the most objective observers of our own reasoning. Does it mean I interfere with someone’s choices? Nope. Does it mean I think they are less feminist or just less? Nope and I never suggested such a thing. And on a blog that examines culture with a critical eye, you cannot expect your reasoning to be taken at face value. You should expect to be challenged if your reasoning appears flawed. I am not being despotic, you are just unwilling to be challenged. I have opened myself to challenge and critique on this blog many times, and I expect to continue to have what I say closely critiqued. It doesn’t threaten me in the least.”
I’ve been challenged plenty of times as well on a whole slew of decisions. Point is, of course, ‘in general’, everyone in the world without implants assumes they know why, in general, most women who have them, once again in general of course, get them. Last time I checked, non-implanted women, in general, did not have psychic powers, so best, in general, to lay off the assumptions about movivation, esteem levels, reasoning and those women’s actual truths.
In general, of course
>> This kind of ‘analysis’, which shame women who get fake tits, is based on the assumption that there are some choices that are less inflected by this cultural context than others, that some women are in a position to make choices that are coming from a mythical space above or beyond the current heteronormative order.
And refusing to see any other factors than the pressure to conform in women’s decision to get fake tits also assumes power to be only repressive, and as such denies any space for resistance. Call me deluded if you want, but I’d rather believe that there is space for something else than falling victim to Teh Patriarchy by getting fake boobs or wearing the ‘badge of pride’ of being flat.>>
dingdingding!
I mean, yes, obviously, no one lives in a vacuum. The question is, why does the “examine your choices” shibboleth always seem to come down to teh same dreary and narrow catalog. And why the answer is -always- the same, to hear some people. Listen: there are over three BILLION women in the world. I promise you, no matter how many women you know personally who agree with you about this particular interpretation of this particular phenomenon, no matter how in touch with your inner womanly self you are, you still aren’t Every Woman (unless you are, indeed, Whitney. hey,someone has to be).
as for the anti-sex thing
1) it ain’t straw, or well let’s just say a number of animate scarecrows walk the ’sphere and the world, I’m happy to cite them for you
2) that bit wasn’t actually a direct response to you. Although, now with your whole, “queer women also feel pressure to conform to these norms for other reasons besides attracting men demonstrates how many levels this kind of conditioning works on. Some women get breast implants because they like big breasts, some to have more proportional breasts, some to lift sagging breasts, and probably a hundred other reasons. And at their root, most of those reasons cannot be disentangled from the cultural messages women are bombarded with on a daily basis fetishizing big breasts.”
…kind of sounds suspiciously like my point. Listen, do you think all fetishes are “conditioned?” Do you think women maybe ever have fetishes of our very own? I know -I- do. (no, I’m not telling you what they are, but big artificial tits aren’t among them, -personally-). They are certainly influenced by the culture in which I live, but it also isn’t a one-one correlation of “oo, i been indoctrinated, -whirr-.”
I mean, there are people (women and men) who fetishize balloons, okay. There are people who love hirsute women, and women with shaved heads, and multiple piercings (on themselves or others). There are even straight vanilla dudes who are into “natural,” small tits; hell, apparently maybe even most of ‘em, we now hear (which is apparently something we should all be overjoyed over, I take it). But: Earlobes. Sneakers. Vampires. Clown suits. Coughing. Bandages. Nosepicking. You name it, there’s a fetish for it. Yeah, sure, not everyone who goes along with what appears to be the trend is truly following her/his own inner bliss; but it doesn’t necessarily follow that they AREN’T, either.
>>but the reality is that sometimes we are not the most objective observers of our own reasoning.>>
And the -other- reality is that those times in which we might want to cede that objectivity to other people generally do not include random encounters with total strangers breezily bloviating on the Internets. And that frankly, it’s fucking rude and stupid to act as though any of us should, merely because one thinks one has access to The One True Feminism, as though no one else had ever examined this shit from -multiple- perspectives, feminist and otherwise.
>>I am not being despotic, you are just unwilling to be challenged. >>
hoo brother. Well, of course you’re not being “despotic,” Mary, you -have no power- to be so. What you’re being is a tool who, for whatever reason, isn’t hearing what other people are actually saying.
What you’re saying isn’t a “challenge,” on account of -we’ve all heard all this before a million times.- It’s not a -challenge.- It’s -dull.- It’s -boilerplate.- Saying O tsk tsk women shouldn’t do thus and so with their own bodies, (especially if it’s ornamental, maybe even sexual, and not utilitarian) isn’t -radical-. It’s not a -novelty,- you know. Making fun of excuse me “criticizing” women who get tit jobs excuse me the tit jobs, the -choices-, not the women (never the women) isn’t a -challenge-, or -it wouldn’t be in fucking Details magazine, now would it?-
My wife was a ‘DD’ in the first days of junior high.
She was teased incessantly throughout junior and senior high and even got a proposition from a very older man on the street.
I just have to say thanks to all those men and little boys that teased the shit out of that woman. She never recovered from that treatment. She grew to be extremely self conscious of her ‘gifts’ from that very first day in junior high. She tells the story about how she went to sleep with mosquito bites and woke up with mountains and had the stretch marks to prove it.
But, yes. Thank you Mike Smith and all the other assholes that tortured her through the years. It took months to get her to have sex with the lights on. She rarely wore a bikini in our early years of dating and then when she did, she felt awkward and embarrassed.
Shopping at Victoria Secret wasn’t an option except for non form fitting items. She also got the hate looks from many other girls in school and college because she ‘had tits’ and distracted their knuckle dragging primate boyfriends.
She got a reduction and now feels comfortable in her body. She even wore a black sheath dress, bra less to a party a few years ago. (And the smoldering looks from the other women there were priceless)
The ‘you should have saved what they took out for me’ jokes have died down too. (thank god!)
It’s interesting being on the ‘other team’ in this situation. It helped me learn that a woman isn’t just a nice place to hang tits. A woman with big tits can be just as smart (and in many cases, with her, smarter than) the slobbering fools speaking to her cleavage. She now jokes that she missed her calling. She could have put herself through college by ‘leveraging her assets’. At least she can joke about it now…
Belledame222: Cite me one place where I expected anyone to do anything based on what I’ve written or prescribed any behavior whatsoever. That does not mean that I cannot share my own observations about the reasons women get implants, BASED ON CONVERSATIONS I HAVE HAD WITH WOMEN WHO GOT IMPLANTS. And I’m sorry, but I have never claimed to have access to the “one true feminism”.
On the fetish thing– I would imagine that the prevalence of certain fetishes can be strongly correlated to historically specific moments in a culture. That does not mean a fetish isn’t an expression of personal taste, just that the expression of the fetish is in part predictive of other cultural trends. I never suggested anything as simplistic as a one-to-one relationship. What I did suggest was that the rationale for breast implants cannot be divorced from the strong pressures women receive to mutilate their bodies in conformity with unrealistic standards just to get male approval (which then, of course, is withheld anyway).
DeservingBitch: I think you are absolutely right that even “feminist” decisions are not made in a space free from cultural conditioning. Who’s to say that the little thrill I get bucking gender norms isn’t more about the rebellion rather than my actual preference? But that is why it is all the more important for each of us to engage in intense self-reflection about the decisions we make and realize those that are concessions to conformity, those that really do express our individual tastes, and those decisions that fall somewhere in between.
If we lived in a society that had as strong a message telling women they are wonderful in all their shapes without artificial enhancement and that we are not simply ornaments for the male gaze, we might be able to talk less problematically about women getting breast implants “for themselves.”
Thank you ladies for an interesting discussion. I think we are probably at the point where we are just talking in circles.
DB: No, see, UR Doin it Rong. THIS is how to be a proper lesbian, mkay: it’s got -nothing- to do with fake -anything-. It is about a Serious Clear Eyed Gaze.
http://superbabymama.blogspot.com/2007/11/cuz-i-feel-like-bitch-right-now.html
see? SRS BIZNESS.
h_m, one last: but the thing is, we create society, too. Us, too. Right now, not in some future post-Revolutionary Utopia. It isn’t just -done- -to- us. So, as far as I’m concerned, the best way to go about trying to create that sort of society is -not- sitting in judgment for other womens’ choices about what to do with their bodies. “be the change you seek,” neh?
and i mean, damn: isn’t there enough else in the world to be sitting in judgment about? listen, if someone’s helping to make the world a better place in concrete ways–fighting for legal change, helping the downtrodden, giving support–she can have -twelve- fake breasts including out of her forehead if she wants to. This is not what this is about. Go after the industry, if you like; talk about the ads, sure, the doctors, whatever. But at the end of the day: is someone -making- you get them yourself? No? Then live and let live.
In any feminist discussion about boob jobs, the chance that Ren Ev and her friends show up to defend capitulating to the patriarchy approaches 1 as the discussion goes on. Sorry, it’s not a feminist choice and seeing as how you’ve proclaimed you’re not a feminst, RE, I don’t see what the big deal is. The point is, we all do shit that’s not feminist. You’d think that not being a feminist, you wouldn’t want anything to do with the label, now would you?
We all do shit to get along. It’s just that some people own up to it. Evidently some people can’t and won’t.
Lisa, the person you quoted was not saying that they were against SRS. They were saying that any surgery that isn’t for health reasons or SRS reasons ought to be considered politically suspect. They could have been better gramatically about it, but cut ‘em a break, mmkay?
The rest of you who are defending this: Can you not tell the difference between a temporary, non-invasive change like makeup and something invasive and dangerous like surgery? Even a tattoo is safer than surgery; yeah, it’s sticking a needle into you, but you’re also not in danger of dying from an allergic reaction to anaesthesia, and the invasion is limited to the upper layers of your skin.
Exactly why should a woman put herself at risk of INFECTION AND DEATH on account of she is “improving” her appearance? Why is that considered an “option” on par with picking a color of eyeshadow? Chemical exposure aside, the eyeshadow isn’t going to eat your flesh away while you live out the last weeks of your life on a respirator. Drug-resistant staph, on the other hand, *will.*
With all that in mind I sometimes think about what I could do when I’m done losing this weight. I may need to get excess skin removed, and I wouldn’t mind getting my boobs lifted and reduced somewhat. But I started out my adult life slender, and I started out with boobs that were small enough I could actually sleep on my belly if I wanted to, without trouble. And yet, I still acknowledge it’s a stupid risk to take, and if I do it I will very likely wait until my daughter is old enough to remember me should the worst happen.
And I will NOT go around parading myself like I’m all enlightened and stuff and am doing this completely free of societal influence. Mostly I’d be doing it because I would like to be able to fit into clothes properly and would like to be able to wear a wider variety of clothes without disgusting everyone around me. Because it sucks to be considered gross.
But I didn’t make those rules. And aside from the pain, health risk, and expense, I likely will not go through with either kind of surgery because I feel on some level like I am proving the assholes right.
And mostly I would like to be valued for who I am and not how I look–you know, like men can be now.
*not taking it not taking it not taking*…
“It’s like in the olden days, in the days of France, when men would slap each other with their gloves say, y’know…”D’Artagnan!”… y’know, “how dare you talk to me like that, you!,” and smack ‘em.”
*it, not taking it not taking it not…*
Gee, BD, why don’t you just do what you always do and post that three-year-old fight I had? After all, it’s not like anything else has happened in my life since then that might be more relevant.
Every feminist discussion on plastic surgery gets derailed by RE trumpeting about how her tit job was her personal choice, without mention of how it increases her profit margin in the ultimate patriarchy-pleasing job field. Then you show up and browbeat everybody who points out, simply, that she needs to own her shit. If you want to bitch at somebody, take it up with Ren Ev herself, for so deliberately and obviously–oh, yeah, and self-servingly, to—missing Amanda’s point.
The analogy with the duel is bullshit, too. In a duel, two guys come out face to face. You’re more comfortable with back stabbing and other cowardly bullshit. Have at it.
“If we lived in a society that had as strong a message telling women they are wonderful in all their shapes without artificial enhancement and that we are not simply ornaments for the male gaze, we might be able to talk less problematically about women getting breast implants “for themselves.””
See, that’s what I mean by this desire for a space above or beyond the current hegemonic order. Sure, it’s fun to dream about it. But until it’s there, why is it so difficult to accept that some women get fake boobs because it makes them feel good/better for whatever reasons? Why the need to shame them and blame them for falling to the pressure of Teh Patriarchy? How many of those decrying women getting fake tits are in a monogamous heterosexual marriage? What institutions holds more power and provide more privileges and is more influencial in reproducing the current unequal power relations: the fake tits industry, or monogamous heterosexual marriage?
Am I critical of the institution of marriage? You bet. Do I want to partake in it? Fuck no. Do I blame and shame straight women who get married? No. Do I suggest that they do so because they are dependent on men, insecure, self-loathing and deluded participant of their own oppression? No. Do I thing that there is no way for straight women in monogamous marriage to resist and subvert and transform this institution? Yes. Do I believe those women when they tell me that their straight monogamous marriage is a source of power and support for them. Yes.
Why is it so difficult to apply the same reasoning for fake tits?
History_mom, in any discussion with the sex pozzes, be aware that they have a script in mind for you already. In your case, you’ve become the big mean feminist for saying that acts like cosmetic surgery should be accompanied by feminist reflection.
History Mom pretty much said it. It’s not a feminist choice. We all do what we have to get along, but dammit, own it and admit it. Big tits—barring medical necessities—–are all about Teh Menz and the patriarchy, or making more money in certain fields. Own it. What’s so difficult about that?
Feminism doesn’t mean I have to like every woman out there or her choices. As BD so charmingly said while she was making up shit to put in other peoples’ mouths, then you get to say fuck you back to people you disagree with. It would help if she actually read what they said, though. Neither HM nor Amanda have said what they’re being bitched at for saying, but why let reality stop a good thread derail?
We live in a patriarchy. It seeps its way into our consciousness and unless we examine it, it informs our actions. I guess some people just don’t want to ask themselves the hard questions. They’d rather spend their time putting bullshit into feminists’ mouths. Not that that says anything about them.
Sorry, I’m trying to see the connection between blaming and shaming and just owning up to less than pure happy motives for a patriarchal choice. Gotta love hyperbole.
ginmar: putting aside the article in itself which can be summarized by “fake/big tits make you look dump and kill my hard-on”, let me quote Amanda for you:
“this article making fun of fake breasts to Lauren, and she sent it to me. I’d be lying if I said it didn’t make me smile; it’s both funny (especially the joke about how you can hear the sea in them) and a nice reminder that fake tits can actually be a huge turn-off to straight men who value women’s independence or confidence. Fake tits symbolize two general themes that directly conflict with that—low self-esteem and dependence on men”.
If you don’t see blaming and shaming there nor in the original article, I’m afraid I’ll have to take away your feminist card from you.
And btw, nobody suggested that it was a ‘feminist’ choice to get fake tits. A few of us however did suggest that blaming and shaming women for their body is usually seen by feminists as a technology of power to exploit and oppress women, and as such, not exactly the best feminist strategy of critique and/or resistance. Of course, I’m talking of feminist that is supposed to make women’s life better, not add to their oppression.
Bitch, please. You don’t get to take away my feminist card for shit, nor do you get to joke about it. Fact is, fake tits are about more than bra size. Deal with it. It’s a patriarchy. You wanna click your heels together three times, that’s fine for you. Don’t tell me what to do. Your opinion?
If you see blaming and shaming in that, it’s your issue. I see sarcasm and a few punchlines that didn’t work. Get over yourself and stop projecting. Also? Own your shit. That’s what the whole point was and I see you ignoring that hard enough to give you whiplash. Own your shit and stop blaming other people for calling you on it. Just because I’m a feminist doesn’t mean I have to tolerate every fool thing some woman does just because she’s another woman—and at least one of the tit jobbers here has proclaimed she’s not a feminist.
If you can’t handle feminist critique, go off to the kiddie table where the Grrl Power girls sit, while they dismiss anything deeper than Grrrl Power, rah rah rah!
I think it was a poor choice to use this Details article as the reason for this post. If you wanted to start a discussion on plastic surgery, surely there are better choices. Why not find an article written by a woman on the subject and using examples of real women from everyday life with breast implants rather than actresses on the public stage like Heidi Montag from an MTV fucking reality show and Victoria Beckham? The whole post left a bad taste in my mouth, it just came off as an opportunity to belittle a group of women. I know I am going to get jumped all over for that, because as feminists you are truly only interested in helping women and showing them the error of their ways in bowing to the patriarchy, right?
“without mention of how it increases her profit margin in the ultimate patriarchy-pleasing job field.”
First of all, reading comprehension 101 would clarify that this wasn’t in fact the motivation. If we are so intent on examining, perhaps we should examine why we have such a burning need for another woman to be lying, when the reasoning provided makes sense.
Next, note the words “HERprofit margin (emphasis added).” According to rad fem theory, most “fields” are patriarchal. So, even though profit increase wasn’t the motivation here, and assuming you’re correct about increase of profit margin, what is your problem exactly with a woman’s increased paycheck?
“It seeps its way into our consciousness and unless we examine it, it informs our actions.”
The proof of absence of examination is not-so-surprisingly missing here, despite continued requests to demonstrate it. Just sayin’.
Finally, whether you call it “feminist critique” (stated more eloquently by DB as blame-n-shame) or “calling women on their shit,” just as history_mom has done before you, you fail to demonstrate the utility of such a strategy. If an action has an (ostensible) feminist motive, shouldn’t it have a potential feminist result? I see a number of possible results here, and none of them support any remotely possible feminist goals.
I lied — here’s the “finally.” To my knowledge, the First Amendment hasn’t been repealed, and DB’s joke didn’t fall into any specially protected areas. She has every right to make a joke about feminist cards. You have the right not to laugh. Personally, I didn’t exercise that one.
DeservingBitch
ginmar: putting aside the article in itself which can be summarized by “fake/big tits make you look dump and kill my hard-on”, let me quote Amanda for you:
“this article making fun of fake breasts to Lauren, and she sent it to me. I’d be lying if I said it didn’t make me smile; it’s both funny (especially the joke about how you can hear the sea in them) and a nice reminder that fake tits can actually be a huge turn-off to straight men who value women’s independence or confidence. Fake tits symbolize two general themes that directly conflict with that—low self-esteem and dependence on men”.
If you don’t see blaming and shaming there nor in the original article, I’m afraid I’ll have to take away your feminist card from you.
Oh please. Pointing out that women living in patriarchy often suffer from low-esteem & are dependent on men doesn’t “blame & shame” anyone - except perhaps the patriarchy-perpetuators. Oh noes! What about teh menz!!!
octogalore:
“I see a number of possible results here”
such as?
“you fail to demonstrate the utility of such a strategy.’
Depends what your goal is, doesn’t it.
oh, and OG, DB? -That’s not funny.-
Pointing out that “women” often suffer from low-self-esteem isn’t particularly offensive in and of itself. Trying to pin all that on those OTHER women as opposed to o say oneself, regardless of what the designated Other Women actually have to say for themselves, is something else.
Not of course that anything said here would -contribute- to anyone’s loss of self-esteem if anyone took it seriously, because of course only -men- have power to do that; or, well, anything else. I mean, who -would- be offended at the OP, or anything else said in this thread? I mean, besides the -everyone- who’s spoken up here. Many of whom, as far as I know, aren’t “sex pozzes,” or indeed people I know at all, in some cases.
*giggle* *flufflebunny* *poot*
I’ll explain it slowly: nobody has said that non-enhanced women are suffering from low self-esteem caused by other women who have had boob jobs. The implication is that the *women who have had boob jobs* are the ones who had low self-esteem.
“If you can’t handle feminist critique, go off to the kiddie table where the Grrl Power girls sit, while they dismiss anything deeper than Grrrl Power, rah rah rah!”
I heart me a feminism that dismiss a woman who criticizes a particular point of view or ‘critique’ by telling her that she’s a kid and that she should let the grown ups talk among themselves.
Funny how ‘feminism’ can sometime looks/sounds/feels exactly the same as what it allegedly purports to transform.
“Oh please. Pointing out that women living in patriarchy often suffer from low-esteem & are dependent on men doesn’t “blame & shame” anyone - except perhaps the patriarchy-perpetuators. Oh noes! What about teh menz!!!”
And the best way to show how the patriarchy-perpetuators are the ones to blame and shame is by linking to and refering as ‘funny and a nice reminder’ an article written by straight dewds which ridiculizes women with fake/big tits and makes the very feminist critique that straight dudes find fake/big tits soooooooooo unnatractive.
What about teh menz????? indeed.
Oh thank you for explaining it slowly. I am slow, notoriously so. Yeah; see, Sheena, I -know-. The problem is that there are women here who HAVE had boob jobs; they explain their reality, some other women explain -to them-, s-l-o-o-w-l-y, because, you know, inverse proportion between wit and tit, *guilty snicker aren’t we naughty*, that no, they do not understand their own motivations for their own actions.
“You only did this because you have low self-esteem. If you weren’t so self-deluded/stupid/unfeminist you’d understand why you do what you do, like I do. Low self-esteem! What’s wrong with you, anyway?”
>>And the best way to show how the patriarchy-perpetuators are the ones to blame and shame is by linking to and refering as ‘funny and a nice reminder’ an article written by straight dewds which ridiculizes women with fake/big tits and makes the very feminist critique that straight dudes find fake/big tits soooooooooo unnatractive.>>
Oh come on, DB, that’s -totally different.- I mean, I totally rely on straight women who talk like that to tell me what is and isn’t about the menz! Don’t you? It’s a -nice reminder.- We all have the same experiences! Except those of us who are -lying- and/or, you know, sparkly, fluffy, man-obsessed…
oh, look, a White Rabbit. and a very happy unbirthday to you too! woohooHOOhooHOOhooHOO
bd:
Hehe. Yeah, as a queer woman, I always find it amusing to be accused — no make that ‘constructively criticized’ — by other (straight) women of being all grrl-power-woo-hoo and men-obsessed. Especially when I was suggesting that blaming women for their bodies and doing so by starting from a sexist article written by a straight dewd ranting about big/fake tits is maybe not the most productive feminist strategy or critique ever. Or even worse, because I suggested that maybe, those women with fake tits may - gasp - have some sort of agency even under the current oppressive order. Suggesting that women may have a mind of their own — how men-obsessed is THAT?
Well hell gin, it’s not a party until you show up. and technically, i refer to myself as a feminist expatriate. also, wrt to my profit margin, implants haven’t really changed it that much-and since you’re not my accountant you are in no position to say otherwise- , and I would have gotten them anyway. never said getting them was a feminist choice, either, but it was my choice, and my reasons for doing so (and there were more than a few) do not fall directly into ‘because the men dig it’ catergory. sure enough, no choice is made in a vacuum, i’ve said that several times, but the fact remains, other women cannot say ipso facto what makes any other woman do things. and yep, when there is a post on plastic surgery that finds it amusing when women with large/fake tits are assumed to be stupid, and rah rah, see, the men dig small tits anyway, and assumptions are made about motivation, intelligence, and esteem in a blanket manner, you can bet your ass i will show up and say something about it.
unless the comments get deleted or banned, of course.
Sheena asked about the number of possible results. Well, let’s first go in with the understanding that the women who’ve been open about having cosmetic surgery here have frequented feminist bloglandia and such appearance, tool-of-the patriarchy, what-have-you topics for some time. Any intelligent reader of our comments will be aware of the fact that this issue and the various reactions here are not new information.
Therefore, what are the possible results?
1) if the BJ was indeed motivated in significant part by the desire to please men, this will have been examined and accepted. Any further commentary along these lines will serve to bore, annoy, prompt further disengagement withj various branches of feminists, or all of the above.
2) if the BJ was not motivated in significant part by this desire, as stated ad nauseum above, insistence of mindreading ability along these lines will serve to bore, annoy, prompt further disengagement withj various branches of feminists, or all of the above.
3) for those commenters who have not and are not contemplating cosmetic surgery, competitive feminism Olympics will serve to bore, annoy, prompt further disengagement withj various branches of feminists, or all of the above.
4) for those commenters who have or are contemplating cosmetic surgery, opinions of complete strangers as to their present and future motivations will serve to bore, annoy, prompt further disengagement withj various branches of feminists, or all of the above.
Whaddya know? I erred! There really is only one possible result.
But Renegade, if someone insists that yer boobage or career (as opposed to that nice unPatriarchal line of work, the Army) is an -unfeminist choice- and you argue, you MUST be saying that it IS a “feminist choice,” and is empowering for -everybody-! What other possible option is there? I bet you make totally unfeminist choices for breakfast, too, and then try to shout, in your sparkly way, “Woo! Look at me! I’m eating toast! As a feminist! Witness me and my feminist toast! I feel so empowered!” Like you do.
I bet you’d say so even if someone was trying to tell you everyone in the world has wheat allergies and stop lying and saying that you actually -like- toast and why must you force your toast down their throats? God, what -is- it with you, anyway? Why can’t you just shut up and let other women speak -for- you? Don’t you know that your very existence is doubleplusunfeminist? Yer so SELFISH.
BD… I know. Bagels are so oppressive, aren’t they? And sure enough, I am out there everyday, pistol in hand, forcing people to eat and love them, in shiny jackboots and everything! Same with boobjobs, too. And of course, I always say these choices, bagels and boobjobs, are absolutely feminist choices and women should just bow the fuck down and do them. I mean, if they don’t, surely they are just trying to please the men, and have not really examined why they don’t want bagels or boobjobs, and suffer from esteem issues and a false sense of motivation. I know, because my experiences are universal and all.
Now, eat your fucking bagel.
OG: yes, but on the other hand it might attract more people who never realized they can continue the sort of “I’m okay, you’re kind of tacky, she’s just a big ol’ slut” they learned in junior high with all kinds of exciting new rationalizations and techniques. How “fun” is -that-? Snark your way to the Revolution! Whee!
BD and RE, are you done blowing each other? RE, I wouldn’t trust you to say ‘wet’ if you feel out of a fucking boat. The same goes for BD, who follows you like a train. So your point would be what? You make money of your tits. Therefore, you have a bias. Oh, and to whoever pointed it out—BD, of course?—-nice class bias. Grrls like you may have college on the table but not me, not my class. Thank you, privileged person for criticizing the choies you didn’t have to make. I had to make do on my own muscle and you had to..get a tit job. Yeah, thanks. I can do fifty pushups in two minutes. You can sneer at a real feminist in college-educated vocab and fill out a D-cup. Who’s the snotty college girl here?
Hey, where’s the link where I fight with two conservative women? You haven’t posted that yet! It’s not an argument with you where you don’t do that. C’mon, let’s see you justify that. It’s been three years. You’ve never dared address that. What’s with the omission, Oh Rebellious One?
And, look, BD is trying to claim some women are calling other women sluts. How fun! Except for the reality, which is that radfems are doing the hard work, while the sex pox are the ones dancing around the poles. Meanwhile, feminists are the ones fighting words like slut and cunt and whore. You can send the thank you notes any time. Somehow I don’t think we’ll be overwhelmed.
RE. you’re not entitled to attempt sarcasm till you achieve reading comprehension. Until you address your first bullshit response to Amanda, you’re out of credibility luck, not that you ever had it before.
Have fun with the whole feminist expat thing! I’m sure your clients will be totally loyal once those purchased tits droop! Good luck! You obviously don’t need feminists, so…why don’t you fuck off?
Pointing out that “women” often suffer from low-self-esteem isn’t particularly offensive in and of itself. Trying to pin all that on those OTHER women as opposed to o say oneself, regardless of what the designated Other Women actually have to say for themselves, is something else.
God, this is rich, coming from the bitch who keeps posting three year old links about me, while omitting that the women I’m fighting with are Ann Coulters. Not to mention the whole PTSD, get hospitalized, suicide thing. Funny the things the Sex Pox pays attention to, isn’t it? You’ve done far more than your fair share in trying to lower my self esteem for quite a while, and I don’t believe for one moment you did it without knowing I was being treated for various illnesses. How do you reconcile the two? C’mon, oh Arbiter of All Things Intellectually Pure. How do you reconcile the two? I want an answer. I’m owed an answer. You can’t bitch at other women without accounting for your own behavior. Let’s hear it. How feminst are you?
Wow ginmar. Shaming a sex-worker/’sex-positive’* feminist for being a stripper and telling her to shut the fuck up while you ’save’ her, and calling another women who happens to agree with her a bitch. That’s your feminism? Why don’t you go ahead and tell me that I need some deep-fucking to get the dyke out of me? Usually, that’s the kind of comment i expect after hearing what you said to those two women. Especially when I agree with the whores/bitches.
And you wonder why the thank you cards are not overflowing you?
*in quotation mark given that I have no idea if RenEv identifies as such.
Ginmar: Ohhh, gonna play the class card with me now too? Listen, yeah, I went to college. On scholarship and via money I had to work for, you know, that whole via my own muscle thing, right back at ya. I worked hard to do it, it was not just handed to me, so don’t speak of what you do not know, okay? And this college girl with fake tits comphrends what was said just fine. You’ll note I’m not the only one who objected to Amanda’s post here, and I’ve been over my problems with it several times. If you’re too dense to catch that, it is not my problem. I can also do 50 pushups in 2 minutes, what’s your point? And I make money off of more than my tits, Gin.
And I wouldn’t talk about being snotty, Ms. I’m ALways Right…I mean, let’s see, I never asked you to personally to trust me on anything, yet, teehee, I’m a what now? Snotty classist insane fucktoy? Your words, Gin, right off your own post about me (one of them anyway). And your once upon a time theory that one day I would come running to the rad fems begging for your help? It’s never gonna happen. See, I never said I didn’t need feminism, but feminists like you? Nah, I don’t need you. And since you have no idea what I might be doing when I’m not swinging on a pole, why don’t you fuck off instead, eh? And seeing as BD is a lesbian and I’m not, well, we don’t spend much time blowing eachother.
Now, you can talk about half truths and lies all you want (after all, you are a damn expert at them yourself) but you sure as hell don’t know the motivations or reasoning in the minds of women who have implants, so let’s not pretend otherwise. And seeing as the damn things are more or less anchored to my ribcage, I don’t much worry about them dropping.
And Gin, you are not entitled to tell me anything about what I’m entitled to do. Hey, you have an issue (or several with me, which you do, its utterly obvious) my door is always open. And unlike you, I will allow those with differing opinions to speak their piece over at my place. Yep, this snotty college girl can read after all, and if the shit being said (once again, half truth, lies, and a whole lot of attacking the woman rather than the practice) on yet another of the lovely posts you’ve dedicated to me (not that I am a regular reader, but whenever you show up to engage on a thread such as this, it is merely a matter of time before you post on it) where of course, my comments would probably never see the light of day (can’t mess with the onesided stories and wisdom of Gin, after all) is feminism, you’re sure right… I don’t need it. Not one iota of it. It reaks of Animal Farm, and that is not a good smell.
You’re so special and tough, and everyone else is just a privileged little whiner. Bullshit, Ginmar. Total bullshit.
DB: well, yes, it is okay to consider women bitches and whores and whatever else if you’re a real feminist, doncha know.
DeservingBitch – I get the feeling we’re witnessing some personal vendetta that have nothing to do with breast implants or feminism.
That said,
“And if whatever they do, things little or big, if it makes them happier…why thrash it?”
“Why can’t you just shut up and let other women speak -for- you?”
I cannot get past these statements. They’re just so . . . ridiculous. No one has ever promised that in feminist circles everything women do is okay and never to be called in question. Just because a woman makes a decision doesn’t make it a good one or one above discussion. Neither did anyone ever say differences of opinion aren’t allowed.
It’s fine to point out what one considers offensive and discuss, but to tell someone else to essentially shut-up because you don’t like what they’re saying is absurd. Simply because people disagree with you doesn’t mean they’re trying to dictate for you how to live. Since everyone gets a voice you don’t get to shut down those you don’t like.
If you don’t like this blog, don’t read it. If you don’t like feminists, don’t come here. If the lot of you don’t like each other, then don’t talk to each other.
And stop embarassing the rest of us
Betty: I asked a question, if something makes a woman happier, why thrash it? Thrash and examine are not the same thing.
Ren Ev loves to justify her tits without mentioning that they increase her tips in her job where she feeds men’s fantasies. As opposed to, you know, women who fight those fantasies. So your ire is a wee bit shallow and conveniant. Ordinarily I don’t call women bitches, after some soul searching, but frankly, I’ve about had it with the sex pozes traipsing onto feminist blogs and pulling the same shit over and over again. I don’t consider the sex pozes my feminist sisters at all. Oops. That’s as close as you’ll get to an apology from me. I really don’t give a shit if they get bitten in the ass by the sexism they practice themselves. Sex poz, rah rah rah. Oh, yeah, and spare me bullshit about the sex worker crap. There’s no such thing as a sex worker. There’s women who are forced into stripping and prostitution and then there’s a whole class of women who deny that it’s that bad for other women. Sex pozes in a nutshell.
Ren Ev, sweetie, thank for confirming that class bias. I could give less than a shit how you worked your supposed way through college. It’s obviously been wasted. And by the way? You can’t justify your bullshit excuses to me, though you sure keep trying to justify them every time some feminist brings up boob jobs—always without mentioning how they make you money. That’s dishonest. The fact that you leave that out means you’re only telling part of the story. Oh, yeah, and you do it on feminist blogs, even though you’re not a feminist. You’ve pulled the same innocent act at least three times on three feminist blogs, all omitting the profit motive in your supposed personal decision, and as long as you pull that crap, I’m going to be your own personal BD, pointing it out every time you omit it. Yeah, and I don’t give a shit for your excuses. As Betty Boondoggle said…..I don’t have to accept every damn fool thing a woman does. Don’t like it? Stay away from feminist blogs. You’ve already admitted you’re not a feminist.
You haven’t gotten thrashed. You’ve gotten called on your bullshit. I suppose calling BD a bitch was mine, but I’m not making money at that. and that’s a fall off the wagon for me. Then again, I’m not selling mens’ fantasies to men….I’m fighting them.
Gin: As I said, I would’ve gotten them anyway, and you have no idea how it affected my tips, you’re not my accountant. And cupcake, what about the other women here talking about implants who aren’t sex workers?
Forget it, rock on with your bad self you amazing righteous warrior you. Pfft, pathetic. You know nothing about my class, or my education, or how wasted it is or isn’t, what I did to get it, whatever. And I do usually mention my job, btw, but since in the almight mind of Gin, the matter is solid as stone, why the hell bother?
Smirk.
And no, you are not selling fantasies to men, but you sure have a lot invested in judging women who don’t fall in line with you. How special for you, really.
There’s that wonderful college education talking. What college did you even go to, where they never graded your papers critically? You really do seem to expect hugs and kisses from the very movement you rejected. I’m sure you’ll be inspired to whine about it some more on the shoulders of your sex poz sistren. In fact, I’m betting on it. More death threats this time, too? You sure do have differing standards for yourself and for feminists.
So where did you mention your job here on this thread? I must have missed it while I was wading through your insulting comments to Amanda where she called you on your shit, repeatedly. Poor little Ren Ev, always so misunderstood by those mean nasty radfems. What do you expect? Kisses and dollar bills?
For you to get defensive about your professional enhancements is kind of cute, it’s so transparent. Own your shit. Here’s mine: I called BD a bitch and I’m sure over the next three years, she’ll bring it up in every discussion of everything ever. But it’s owned. You still haven’t done anything but whine about the mean ebil feminists.
BEing a feminist doesn’t mean I have to accept every damned fool thing a woman does. And I think it’s transparently obvious, by the way, that Amanda was talking about cosmetic boob jobs like yours, instead of medically necessary ones, but hey, dishonesty works for you, go head.
I was shocked by the ferocity of this post - “universal symbols of desperation” indeed - but even more shocked by some of its defenders, particularly ginmar.
ginmar I think I have argued with you before about sex work, and I did so thinking you were arguing in good faith. now I read about how angry you are at a woman for “feeding” the fantasies you “fight”, and your scorn at her choice of breast implants “for cynical profit”, and I think you’ve internalised the fantasies you claim to fight a lot more than you let on. I also think you were not arguing with me about sex work in good faith, since you clearly believe sex workers and “sex pozzes” (women who enjoy sex, I presume?) are a fifth column, traitors to all the women you want to “help”.
This whole post has been a hyper-exercise in insecurity, “false consciousness” and violent language, mostly aimed at women who have taken a “radical” decision about their own bodies. Interesting…
and this
is just ridiculous.
Presumably you think that the “whole class of women” who deny it’s bad for other women are doing it too? Like the women posting here? Why don’t you just come out and call them the word you want to…
OG: yes, but on the other hand it might attract more people who never realized they can continue the sort of “I’m okay, you’re kind of tacky, she’s just a big ol’ slut” they learned in junior high with all kinds of exciting new rationalizations and techniques. How “fun” is -that-? Snark your way to the Revolution! Whee!
Oh, I missed this one. How deliciously dishonest of you, but that’s hardly surprising, considering the source. I see you still haven’t owned your shit, either, but then again, who would with that much shit?
I don’t care who RE fucks, except when she fucks and fucks with feminists. Enabling men sure falls into that category.
And RE, sweetie, I went back and it’s all about self esteem and all that crap. You didn’t mention you had a solid—and common, in your profession—motive to get implants. It’s about as honest as DB pretending that patriarchal institutions will magically change by themselves without women entering them and changing them. Rah sex poz logic!
Gin: Oh, you will just love this I am sure, but for the sake of honesty…I went to Duke. Go ahead and have a field day with that as you will.
And lookie, watch…I will continue to say me getting implants was not all about my job, however, I am pondering botox, leaning real hard towards getting it within the next month or so, not a feminist choice either, and that is totally about vanity and my job and pressures in society. 100%. My boob job had deeper and other reasons behind it, you can accept that or not, I don’t really care.
And nope, I didn’t mention my job here. The post wasn’t about sex work, it was about boob jobs, and since unlike the botox I am planning on getting, my boob job was not focused utterly on my job…so I did not mention it.
And not every women here was talking about medical boob jobs, Amanda only addressed me once and I replied to her…and sure, you don’t have to accept everything that other women say…the reverse is also true…and sure enough, collect your winnings, I have ranted about this whole thing-just like you have.
And trust me, the last think I want out of you is hugs and kisses…as for dragging shit up, the death threat thing-which anyone with reading comprehension could figure out was not a threat- is so beaten to death. So, go ahead and pick on my boobs, my job, my intelligence, whatever makes you feel best at the moment, I will still be smirking.
Yeah, flashheart, I call them prostitutes, if that’s what they do. That’s the technical term, and according to any research in the field, aside from the college girl rebels and cheerleaders, something like 70 to 99% of them want to get out of prostitution. For most prostitutes, life is not college education and debates. It’s disease, tricks, and a much higher likelyhood than normal of being reaped, beaten, and murdered. Sign me up! No, wait, let’s talk about prostitution from the point of view of the prostitution justifiers. That sure works!
My, my, my, aren’t we being dishonest and psychic! It’s so cute. And so typical.
“But the post wasn’t about sex work.”
Huh. There’s that dishonesty again. Blah blah blah self esteem, and oh, just coincidentally, I make money off them, but that’s not the topic of discussion so I’ll just let that off.
Yeah, RE, I joke about sex poxes winding up bleeding out under the wheels of trucks all the time. It’s so obviously a joke! Haha. I see the main topic here has once again conveniently eluded you. How nice.
Smirk away, babe. I guess this means you won’t address a single thing actually brought up on this post, instead choosing to blather on again about self esteem and how mean feminists are. Despite not being a feminist. Darn, I had such high hopes for that college education to show itself.
Gin: try harder, really. The point is, flat out, mocking women for breast size, real or purchased, isn’t about examining shit. It’s mocking. Very basic for you. I mean, let us look at this bit from the OP:
“it’s both funny (especially the joke about how you can hear the sea in them) and a nice reminder that fake tits can actually be a huge turn-off to straight men who value women’s independence or confidence. Fake tits symbolize two general themes that directly conflict with that—low self-esteem and dependence on men.”
Yes, funny, a Details article where men mock women with large breasts (real or fake). Oh, it is important to remember that the straight men might prefer real tits! Let’s assume to know all about the independence level and confidence level of women with fake tits…I mean, since the themes of low self esteem and dependence are so right there in your face.
I found it offensive. There is no examining of the why, the influences of society on women, none of that whatsoever. Even if I wasn’t involved in sex work, I would have found it offensive…same way I find it offensive when people assume heavier people are lazy and have no self control, because so very often it is simply not true. I am allowed to be offended. Just like you, I don’t have to agree with everything a woman says, and in this case, I did not agree with Amanda.
And actually, you quoted my statement almost exactly yet changed it to sex pozs and seemed to find it amusing. Nevermind the statement was made in a very angry moment, appoligized for, and intended towards various other people throwing hate as well, all that just got lost in the “woo, look how mean Ren is being” shuffle.
And I could say something really bitchy with regards to the whole college education thing, but I won’t.
What do you mean, you could say something bitchy? You’ve been bitchy this whole topic, yet another thing you haven’t owned up to. So don’t pretend about that, either.
Let’s recap: Here’s your first comment:
Wow Amanda…aren’t you charming?
Pretty amazing how you have the hardline lowdown on the esteem levels and worldly worth of women with implants like that! How hip and indie punk cool of you! I mean, it takes a set of brass ovaries for a feminist to rip on women’s appearances, possible motivations, position in society and feelings like that!
Funny, a lot of people would suggest that moreso than implants a woman who does this sort of thing and tears down other women in order to show how much more superior, intelligent, hip and cool she is might be the one suffering from esteem issues and a sense of desperation. Because wow, aren’t you just so much better and confident than those girls with the tits full of saline?
Hell, I have implants, yet I’ve never felt the need to crack on women without them or assume to know their motivations or levels of self esteem or apparent worth in the world, funny that a woman without them feels the need to do exactly that.
Interesting indeed.
Yeah, you’re the soul of sisterhood. If I had sisters like you, I’d pray for fratricide, frankly.
Meanwhile, Amanda’s chosen topic was breast implants not jeering at large breasted women. She’s said that a couple of times. Either you’re lying or you’re calling her a liar about…her intentions and stated aims. Of course, you were so worried about big breasted women that you mentioned them in your very first comment.
The suspense is killing me! I’m sure you’ll address that point instead of doing some more sneering. By the way, I can give you lessons in being bitchy. You’re just not trying hard enough and only achieving spite.
If I’ve been bitchy this whole time, why do I need lessons, oh guru? And if I haven’t lived up to being bitchy, why own up to it? I’m not calling Amanda a liar or saying I lied, I am saying I found it offensive. I was offended. Point blank. I never claimed to be the soul of sisterhood either. I think sisterhood is a crock for the most part, and that whole fratricide thing, the feeling is mutual.
Now, what I was going to say about college is it takes a real feminist woman to mock the intelligence of a woman who had to work hard to get there and work hard while there in the first place, especially if she has not done so herself. You like to make it sound like everything was so easy for me and you have suffered so mightily in comparision…without knowing jack about it. But that seems to be typical.
It’s funny, your just-discovered anger over your big-boobed sisters. You never mention them once before now.
You know, Ren, you really oughtn’t hold yourself up as a model of suffering. I really don’t want to go there, because of course, if I do, I’m sure you’ll respond like BD with her classist prejudice about the Army, ignoring of course how the only way to change the patriarchy is in a g-string. Then again, I really don’t care to discuss my past with somebody with such detailed revenge fantasies—-over such very, very petty things. Feel wronged by feminists? Blood death fantasies. It’s funny. I’ve been in battle, and I wouldn’t wish that on anybody even as a—what did you call it? A joke?
But, anyway, so when did you discover this offense on behalf of women with big boobs? You didn’t mention it in your first comment or any of the subsequent ones and as I said, you accused Amanda of various things. Your own words, not mine. You say you’re offended; where does accusing her of various things come into that? You make actual accusations, but you’re righteously offended when somebody tries your own tricks on you.
Gin: I don’t hold myself up as a model of suffering. Your assertion that I have is erronous. I’m a person, just like everyone else. We all have things that anger us, and get upset over them. And I’ve never, nor would I ever, disparage your military service. I have no doubt being in the military is rough, being in a war is horrible, and I admire the service of people in the military. If you’re expecting comments or pot shots regarding your service, they won’t be coming, I have nothing ill or mean or nasty to say about any of that.
What offended me, once again, was the assumptions about the esteem and motivations of women with implants. I’ve said that several times. I hope not to have to repeat it. And here and elsewhere I have heard women who are naturally busty say how assumptions about breast size affect them, and I don’t think that is right or fair or productive either.
And I am most positive there are better ways to fight for feminism than in a g-string. You do it your way, others will do it in a different manner, and right o, no one needs to like anyone elses methods.
“I asked a question, if something makes a woman happier, why thrash it”
Why is something that might make a woman happy above examination?* Why do you say in one post:”There is no examining of the why, the influences of society on women, none of that whatsoever.” while at the same time repeatedly attempting to prevent that very discussion?
Seems to me that why an artifically and unecessarily** inflated chest can make women feel better about themselves is a fundamental feminist concern. Especially given the toxic environment it can create for other women.
Therefore, feminists will talk about it. You don’t get to decide for us what we can’t talk about or, more to the point, to shame us for what we talk about.
Lastly, I’m sorry you feel that sisterhood is a “crock”. That makes me a bit sad to hear given the giant crockpot*** of sisterhood I live in. I certainly would not want to live in a world without it.
* I’m not going to say “trash” because that’s not what this post did.
** as opposed to surgeries that are medically necessary
*** cue rim shot
Betty: sigh, once again, examine all you want. have at it. examine away. but if a woman says “i got them because….” is it by default necessary to assume she’s lying through her teeth, or has not examined and found, in her case, her reasons to be valid and in ways her own…and is it necessary to make assumptions about her motivations and esteem? I hope not. But it appears otherwise. Yes, ask, examine, but listen too, you know? And I am in no way telling you can or cannot talk about…talk away, but don’t expect everyone to agree with you on matters. And the shaming thing, wooo, it’s been spread around do everyone indeed.
And I am glad you have a sense of sisterhood with…um, your cooking buddies? That’s great. But, once again, all experiences are not universal and all.
Now, what I was going to say about college is it takes a real feminist woman to mock the intelligence of a woman who had to work hard to get there and work hard while there in the first place, especially if she has not done so herself. You like to make it sound like everything was so easy for me and you have suffered so mightily in comparision…without knowing jack about it. But that seems to be typical
I can guarantee you, Ren, old buddy, that I doubt you would survive some of the stuff I’ve been through, however much your buddy jeers at it. It’s a simple statement of fact.
And I’m still waiting for an explanation for how you feel such concern for women with big boobs yet somehow never mentioned them once till this comment thread approached the 200 mark.
Are all the “sighs” and belitting insults supposed to foster conversation, or are they designed to end a conversation? Once again, you can’t ask why we aren’t talking about something while you do your best to prevent us from doing such.
“is it by default necessary to assume she’s lying through her teeth, or has not examined and found, in her case, her reasons to be valid and in ways her own…and is it necessary to make assumptions about her motivations and esteem”
It is by default necessary in a patriarchy to question someone who does something that both supports and reinforces patriarchy and makes things worse for other women. Perhaps you should do some listening yourself. It’s not, after all, just about one woman making one choice.
I have already stated that we don’t have to have monolithic agreement.
” with…um, your cooking buddies?”
Cute. If this dismissive attitude is what you give all feminists I’m unsurprised your reception is less than warm.
I was a cop and therefore have been around all manner of people in the worst moments. Whenever such involves women in sex work there has been only one constant throughout – should (fate forbid) anything bad ever happen to you all the people who fawn over you now will be the first to say you deserved it, asked for it, and that you don’t deserve protection or justice.
You can hate on feminists for not supporting your choices. You can hate feminists for calling into question your motives, or the reasoning behind these choices. You can hold personal grudges against feminists forever. But (fate forbid) should anything ever happen to you, you can count on one thing – feminists will be the only ones who will stand behind you, support you, defend you.
Sisterhood is no illusion. I have much more than a “sense” of it. I feel very sad for you that you don’t and feel the need to belittle it. And, I already know you’ll belittle and dismiss this too - while complaining that others are belitting and dimissing you, I’m sure.
Gin, come on, we’re not old buddies, and you can no further judge what I would survive than I can judge what you would survive, it’s not a contest, and we have no scale upon which to compare. Do I relish the idea of going to war? Being there and see it? No, not particularly. Would I relish some of the other things you’ve been through in your life? Well, I don’t know what they are, but chances are, no, probably not. I’ve not jeered it, so why blame me for something I’ve not done and assume I’ve not been through things that were, to say the least, rough?
And I may not have mentioned it here, but in various other places I have stated repeatedly that I don’t like to see anyone picked on because of their looks and the choices they make regarding them. That sentiment is on record in lots of places.
Betty: cooking buddies was an attempt at humor regarding you crockpot comment. Not intended as an insult at all, sorry if it came across that way. And like I said, I am glad you have a sense of sisterhood, I am not begrudging or belitting that in the least.
And for some reason, if something bad happened to me, I don’t think the people I honestly consider friends, have proven themselves to be as such, and where there is some sort of deeper bond there would be saying I deserved it. ALL feminists? I am not so sure and remain skeptical.
And the sigh is because I am tired of answering the same question over and over and over. Talk and question all you want, but don’t expect that I will answer the same question several times and not grow tired of it.
Betty:
“It is by default necessary in a patriarchy to question someone who does something that both supports and reinforces patriarchy and makes things worse for other women. Perhaps you should do some listening yourself. It’s not, after all, just about one woman making one choice.”
Several issues here:
1) I agree that questioning choices made under the current oppressive order is a necessary endeavour for people - like feminists - who want to transform such oppressive order. But as OG mentioned above in the thread, the results/effects of such questioning should open up space for transformation rather than allienate the very women you see as being ‘victims’ of this oppressive order.
2) This post, the article it refers to, and many of the comments here have nothing to do with ‘critical questioning’, and everything to do with ridiculizing, shaming, and blaming women with big/fake tits.
3) One of the technology of power under the current oppressive order is the common assumption that women are stupid and unable to think for themselve. Contrary to what Teh Patriarchy would like us to believe, big/fake tits doesn’t come at the expense of a brain and the ability to use it. Refusing to give credit to the women with fake tits who came here to comment that they are as able as you are to be self-reflective about their choice is playing the game of Teh Patriarchy.
4) Indeed, fake tits is not the choice of only one woman, and as such, I agree with you to a certain extend that said choice participate in reproducing oppressive views and practices regarding female-identified bodies. But blaming the women who make such choice — especially when you are at the same time suggesting that they are deluded victims of the pressure of Teh Patriarchy to conform — for ‘making things worse for other women’ is unproductive at best, and unfeminist at worst.
5) Following from point 4 above, unless you’re ready to argue that straight women in a monogamous state-approved marriage are making a choice that makes things worse for other women — especially women such as myself who happen to be queer and poly — AND that such choice is much more significant in reproducing the current oppressive order than the choice of getting fake tits, I’ll keep seeing your argument as a very convenient way of blaming some women for the choices you don’t want to make while reminding blind to your own shit.
Obviously, the inaccurately-named Renegade Evolution is upset that Amanda’s post questioning the widespread practice of breast augmentation did not affirm her (RE’s) personal choice to get breast implants. The fact that Amanda did not fall over herself in remorse seems to have further angered her, as she has apparently enlisted the usual suspects (belledamme222 et al) to assist her in derailing and disrupting meaningful discourse on this subject. It would seem that there is nothing that offends RE so much as failing to affirm her choices as feminist and empowerful.
My question is this: so fucking what? Why must we all affirm you, RE? Why do you take such personal offense at feminist inquiry into this widespread cultural phenomenon? And more to the point, why is your offense at this OUR problem?
You know, Ren, that is one of the most dishonest things you’ve said, and that’s quite an accomplishment. I don’t care if you’ve said it elsewhere. The question is, why are you suddenly changing your story here and now? That’s what I’ve asked you about. You don’t give a shit about women with big breasts and what they go through. YOu never expressed any concern about them in any of your comments till late in the game, when you suddenly switched gears. You only pulled that out at the last minute. When I pointed that out to you, out came the attitude.
And that snotty attitude is how you’ve always treated feminists. Run back to your blog and have some more bloody death fantasies, why don’t you? And can we dismiss with the pretense that that was a joke? “I hate radfems and hope they choke to death on their own blood under the trucks that ran them over,” is not a joke, it’s a revenge fantasy on behalf of your friends, who bent over backward to make excuses. But I’m a soldier and I’ve seen that kind of thing, and I don’t have fantasies like that, nor do I consider that humorous in the slightest. It’s vile. It’s a despicable thing to say and if you do in fact think it’s funny, you’re fucked up badly.
Why you seem to want validation from women you so despise is beyond me. You’re not a feminist; why do you spend so much time with them, then?
“she has apparently enlisted the usual suspects (belledamme222 et al) to assist her in derailing and disrupting meaningful discourse on this subject”
A bunch of women mocking/blaming other women with fake tits = feminist and sisterhood and all.
A few women voiving dissenting views = a deluded and unfeminist woman ‘enlisting’ other women in her deluded and unfeminist ways.
“it’s both funny (especially the joke about how you can hear the sea in them) and a nice reminderfake tits can actually be a huge turn-off to straight men” = meaningful discourse
War is Peace, Slavery is Freedom, and all that.
All right, ginmar. Renegade’s already showed up herself and addressed the class business, which is frankly more appropriate since it was her you were snotting at and her I was speaking up for. Yeah, she made a choice; you made a choice. We all make choices. She’d never gotten on your ass for yours; you’re not entitled to come in and lay Pronouncements on her head because you’ve decided that tits are ever so much worse than guns (of course her real sin is that she actually enjoys herself; if she’d wrung her hands and talked about how much she regretted it it’d be fine, right?) And of course, you are, as always, the Voice of Feminist Authoritah.
The fact that you may or may not have “been through” more than anyone else here does not, in fact, entitle you to act like a big ol’ giant asshole every time you think someone’s looked at you cross-eyed, or the moon aligns with Saturn or whatever the fuck it is, because you know what, whatever it is that makes you act like a meth-addled badger all the time, it is officially Not My Problem, or anyone else’s whom you’ve decided is going to be the Toxic Baggage Dump Du Jour. And you want to know cause why? Because 1) it -really- isn’t 2) -in- my (unfortunately fairly extensive) online experience of you you’ve consistently failed to show any such consideration or even basic human interest for -anyone- but yourself.
As for the “bitch” business: really, I wouldn’t worry about it. In this thread alone you’ve already used “tit-jobbers” which frankly I think is a hell of a lot more offensive than “bitch;” as other people are pointing out your entire attitude all through this thread has been rampantly sexist; you’ve been consistently tossing around all kinds of femme-baiting shit here and elsewhere; hell, you’ve already used “bitch” in a cutesy way right here (see? her handle is Deserving Bitch; ginmar says, Bitch, Please. Ginmar Make Funny. ah-ha-ha-ha-ha). And, since you seem to actually -want- me to bring up the ancient fight again (please don’t throw me in that briar patch): it’s still nothing compared to “you stupid cunt, please” or “you’re that professional virgin who had her vagina embalmed.” ‘K?
Yeah, I know. You’ve changed -so much- in the interim. There’s so much more one could bring up besides that. And, well, sure. Hell, you make more dwama every fucking day; why single that out? Why indeed. Only because, well, it was rather -telling.- Not the level of upset, the epithet choice. See the thing is, ginmar, you know the Mel Gibson business? You know how his getting drunk may have lowered his inhibitions but didn’t suddenly implant the -idea- for calling someone “sugartits” or anti-Semitic ravings? You know how Seinfeld dude didn’t know what came -over- him but somehow threatening to lynch a black guy for making fun of him came tumbling out of his gob? Yeah. There’s no magic misogynist fairy, ginmar, that comes and alters the -contents- of what’s already in your brain. As we’ve just seen.
But that’s not even the real problem. The real problem is, you’re completely solipsistic (o look, Big Mothering College Word, can you -stand- it?) Even now, you don’t care about what “bitch” or anything else might mean as per how it affects anyone -else-. It just rattled your sense of yourself as Supra Feminist for a second, am I right? O dear, where’d that come from. It came from exactly the same place as everything else you come out with comes from, ginmar, speaking of -owning your shit.- Yes, other people are familiar with the concept of -owning one’s shit.- I own -my- shit. Yep, I’ve been mean about you, because you give me a giant asscramp. Yep, I have class privilege, and a few others besides. Yep, no doubt something I need to examine and deal with more.
What I’m not going to own, ginmar, is -your- shit. The college mishegos? Your shit. The rampant heterosexism? Your (and -many- others’ here): your (and their) shit. Your explosive rage-diarrhea problem? -Your shit.- And, no one else should have to own your shit either. Particularly, in THIS context, the -unexamined misogynist shit, of which you have a fuckload.-
All right then? Was that -direct- enough for you? Did that satisfy your battle jones for at least this morning, you haddock, was that your adrenaline shot, your energy boost for the day? I certainly hope so, because that’s all I’ve got for you, you tiresome little nose goblin, I haven’t the time for any more, and frankly I haven’t the patience.
-and *I* don’t have fantasies like that*
Of course you don’t, dear.
DB - i see from you subsequent comments that you’re more interested in stopping the convo than continuing it. However:
” But as OG mentioned above in the thread, the results/effects of such questioning should open up space for transformation rather than allienate the very women you see as being ‘victims’ of this oppressive order.”
I admit to inexperience in this respect. I see no alienation except that to the degree to which they want to be alienated. No one said one can’t have breast implants, we simply aren’t celebrating them and that, apparently, is enough to make some very overly-sensitive types get very overly defenses about choices they claim to be totally at peace with.
” This post, the article it refers to, and many of the comments here have nothing to do with ‘critical questioning’, and everything to do with ridiculizing, shaming, and blaming women with big/fake tits.”
That’s subjective. I see nothing that shamed anyone with breast implants. The shame is clearly directed at that which tells women their value is in a perfect rack to begin with. Those that are taking it personally want there to be an insult there that Amanda has already explained wasn’t there. I make no claims for Details, since it’s a men’s mag and therefore isn’t likely to even recognize misogyny exists.
“Contrary to what Teh Patriarchy would like us to believe, big/fake tits doesn’t come at the expense of a brain and the ability to use it.”
No one here – or other feminists anywhere – have said it does.
“Refusing to give credit to the women with fake tits who came here to comment that they are as able as you are to be self-reflective about their choice is playing the game of Teh Patriarchy.”
No one said they aren’t self-reflective. Others have said their self-reflection is self-serving and self-reinforcing and I happen to agree. As someone up there pointed out, all of us make un-feminist decisions – some of us can admit that, and some can’t. And those that can’t have a great deal invested in keeping up the pretense that it’s all okay and harmless.
” But blaming the women who make such choice — especially when you are at the same time suggesting that they are deluded victims of the pressure of Teh Patriarchy to conform — for ‘making things worse for other women’ is unproductive at best, and unfeminist at worst.”
I blamed no one. And I certainly did not suggest they are deluded victims. They are not personally making things worse for other women. I thought that was clear, but obviously I underestimate everyone’s desire to be offended. I’ll repeat – they, themselves, are not personally making things worse for other women. They are, however, capitulating to that which does make things worse for other women. By and large one can’t blame them for that as we all capitulate to some degree. But denying that it is capitulation is just absurd.
We are not required to be happy with, support, or be silent about these issues as they effect us all.
Don’t like it? Don’t read it.
__________________
RE: first, apologies for the confusion over the cooking buddies remark.
“And for some reason, if something bad happened to me, I don’t think the people I honestly consider friends, have proven themselves to be as such, and where there is some sort of deeper bond there would be saying I deserved it. ALL feminists? I am not so sure and remain skeptical.”
I must have failed woefully in stating my point. I’m not talking about your friends. I’m talking about all those who enjoy, profit from, or are otherwise benefiting from sex work. They’ll be the first to turn their back on you should you dispense with the supporting rhetoric. You are perfectly free to doubt my point, and I sincerely hope you never have to find out how right I am. I, however, have seen it play out a million times.
BD think I have bloody fantasies about people choking to death on their own blood because—following RE’s model here—-those people said mean and cruel things about my esteemed friends. She says this with great certainty. That’s about as accurate as the rest of her screed, which I am pleased to report is so off base it’s not even worth dealing with. The truly amusing thing is that she thinks the comment about fantasies is about me, rather than her. Sweetie, you’ve just revealed your hand.
Blood fantasies. You’re a sick, sad, pathetic little patriarchy apologist, BD. Try and get some help. You have no honor, no integrity, and your projection of your own issues onto me, bloody death fantasies and all, plus the class bullshit—just makes me feel better about every time I’ve pissed you off, called you on your pretentious bullshit and just in general did something that annoyed you. I look forward to much more of it in the future. In fact, I feel invigorated. I thought there was some hope for you. There obviously isn’t.
Have fun fantasizing about people dying and choking. I’m sure I know who some of those people are. You’re a reprehensible excuse for a human being.
Betty:
“No one said one can’t have breast implants, we simply aren’t celebrating them and that, apparently, is enough to make some very overly-sensitive types get very overly defenses about choices they claim to be totally at peace with.”
Women disagreeing with the ‘analysis’ presented here are ‘overly-sensitive types’. How original. And how very feminist. And not at all reminescent of mysogynist dewds who call women ‘overly-sensitive’ when we point out sexism in society.
So tell me, how do you explain MY objection and critique of this post/article/comments supporting this post? I have all ‘natural’ boobies, small ones at that — just like Amanda — I have no intention of getting fake ones, and being queer, I can hardly be accused of seeking men approval or men attention. So, what do you make of my own critique? What is it that I’m being overly-sensitive and overly-defensive about?
“I see nothing that shamed anyone with breast implants. The shame is clearly directed at that which tells women their value is in a perfect rack to begin with. Those that are taking it personally want there to be an insult there that Amanda has already explained wasn’t there.”
Again, I don’t see how my objection and critique of this post can be seen as me ‘taking it personally’ for reasons just mentioned above. And at the risk of repeating myself, this post starts by linking to and referring as ‘funny’ a blatantly mysogynist article that can be summarized by ‘women with fake/bits tits are dump and men don’t even find fake/bits tits attractive’. Oh - and according to Amanda, the fact that straight dewds don’t find big/fake tits attractive is apparently a ‘nice reminder’. Yes yes indeed, how nice to be reminded that my natural small boobies are approved of by straight dewds. I like me a ‘feminist critique’ that reminds me that I should care what straight dewds think about my boobs. And I’m not even going to go into some of the comments made here, which refers to women with fake tits as ‘tit jobbers’ for instance. Because really, those women are clearly being overly-sensitive and seeing insults and shame where there is only feminist questioning of Teh Patriarchy.
Ahh, shaming and blaming. That’s a common accusation hurled at feminists who question things, you know. Or maybe you don’t.
Regardless, it’s obvious that this “discussion” is not about breast implants anymore, it’s a massive pile-on against Ginmar, who has had the audacity to call Renegade Evolution (such a misnomer!) on some truly vile bullshit. Heavens, anything but that.
“Tit Jobbers.”
*Preens*
I liked what Amanda had to say. If a woman said she had a boob job because she wanted to marry up and that was the best way to accomplish that, it’d be great and it’d be honest. BD and RE get to call people assholes and did so long before I got to this thread. I’m just returning the favor. I believe HM was the previous object of their ire.
Oh, and here’s an example of how the patriarchy affects tit choices: Younger and younger girls are having the operations. Viva patriarchy! http://media.www.dailyorange.com/media/storage/paper522/news/2007/11/27/Feature/Bigger.Is.Better-3116436.shtml
Nothing amuses me more than someone accusing me of not being a “real feminist” based on a deliberately skewed take down of what I wrote.
“Women disagreeing with the ‘analysis’ presented here are ‘overly-sensitive types’. How original. And how very feminist. And not at all reminescent of mysogynist dewds who call women ‘overly-sensitive’ when we point out sexism in society.”
Deliberately twisted take-down, as I’m quite sure you intended. I say overly-sensitive because the personal attacks being heaped on those of us who aren’t celebrating implants are far worse than anything that’s been said about breast implants. Not because they disagree with the analysis.
“So, what do you make of my own critique? What is it that I’m being overly-sensitive and overly-defensive about?”
Your “critique” has yet to consist of anything more than attempting to shame those of us who don’t agree with you. I fail to see what I’m supposed to say to that.
“Again, I don’t see how my objection and critique of this post can be seen as me ‘taking it personally’ for reasons just mentioned above.”
When I came into the thread I said it was clear a large portion of what the thread consisted of at that point was personal vendettas (against Ginmar, apparently). And given the truly vile crap BD posted about Ginmar, I think its hilariously hypocritical that you ire is up at me, who hasn’t a dog in that fight. At this point I’m thinking you’re another friend of BD and RE who feels the need to go way overboard in snuffing out any whiff of feminist thought that doesn’t fall directly in line with yours –while pretending that’s only something us “fake feminists” do.
And if Ginmar said something objectionable to you, why are you asking me to answer for it? There’s clearly some long-running anger going on between Ginmar and the other two – how is it my responsibility to answer for it?
Flewellyn has a good point - Y’all achieved your goal. You successfully derailed a conversation with your personal vendettas.
” Ahh, shaming and blaming. That’s a common accusation hurled at feminists who question things, you know. Or maybe you don’t.”
OK people. Lets try an exercise in ‘compare and contrast’.
Here is what Amanda wrote:
“Someone from Details sent along this article making fun of fake breasts to Lauren, and she sent it to me. I’d be lying if I said it didn’t make me smile; it’s both funny (especially the joke about how you can hear the sea in them) and a nice reminder that fake tits can actually be a huge turn-off to straight men who value women’s independence or confidence.”
Now, compare this to what Bitch PhD had to say about same article (sorry for the lack of direct link - I can’t be bothered right now to figure out how to do it). From Bitch PhD’s blog:
“Details thinks “uber-boobs” are unattractive! I bet all the girls are just falling on their knees thanking god that we’ve got permission from Details magazine not to get breast implants.
Isn’t that white of them? No lady wants to have “out of control” boobs!
I just feel so much better about my feminism now that I know that Details doesn’t approve of breast implants. Whew.”
I’ll help you with the exercise: Amanda’s post participates in mocking women who choose to get fake tits (”it’s both funny”) AND suggests that we should care that (some) men don’t find fake tits attractive. Questionable feminist claim at best, and heteronormative at worst.
Bitch Phd’s post: Call the author of the article on their sexist crap, AND accuratly remind them and others that women and their bodies exist for other purposes then pleasing the men.
Hey Belledame, thanks for dragging me into this by calling me a “nobody.” See, you said Gin’s not interested in helping anyone. But just yesterday she helped ME. If Gin is interested in helping no one, but she helped me yesterday, that makes me a nobody.
What the fuck did I ever do to you?
By the way? The guns vs. tits thing? In a pinch, if somebody was about to kill me, I’d rather defend myself with the former than the latter. “Oh PLEASE don’t kill me, look here, aren’t I KEYUTE?” Puke.
Please get rid of this ridiculous fantasy that you are doing ANYTHING for my gender by–wait for it–looking like a living 3D version of what the patriarchy hawks as the Ideal Woman(tm) every. goddamn. day. When you can turn guys on looking like ME, I’ll believe you’re “empowered.”
If you squint real hard, and maybe stand on your head, it can look that way. That’s why you have to make the onerous effort to, oh, I don’t know, read the rest of the fucking post maybe?
Just a thought.
“If you squint real hard, and maybe stand on your head, it can look that way. That’s why you have to make the onerous effort to, oh, I don’t know, read the rest of the fucking post maybe?
Just a thought. ”
Hmmm. OK. Lets go further down the tread. Quoting Amanda again:
“There’s something genuinely pathetic about a woman coming up with a bunch of self-justifying reasons. If a woman said, “Yeah, I got breast implants because it helped me marry up and now I don’t have to work,” I’d at least applaud her forthright no-bullshit attitude.”
I still see this as a questionable feminist analysis at best, and heteronormative at worst.
So the argument boils down to for or against bullshit excuses. Thank for clearing that up.
Betty:
“Nothing amuses me more than someone accusing me of not being a “real feminist” based on a deliberately skewed take down of what I wrote.”
I never accused you of not being a ‘real feminist’. I did however point out how your critique sounds strangely similar to the silencing techniques used against women who dissent. In other word, I accuse you of using an ‘un-feminist’ technique to make your point.
“Your “critique” has yet to consist of anything more than attempting to shame those of us who don’t agree with you.”
My critique has consisted of many points:
1) this post participate in mocking and shaming some women for their bodies and their choices — if only tangentially by linking to and referring as funny and a nice reminder a blatantly mysogynist article.
2) this post and many of the subsequent comments serve more to shame, blame, and allienate some women and their choices than open up space for a productive and transformative critique of the politics of women’s bodies.
3) there is a lot of unacknoweldged heteronormative biases going on in this post and in many comments
4) there’s a difference between acknowledging that no choices are made in a vacuum (such as getting fake tits or being in a straight monogamous state-approved marriage), and refusing to acknowledge that there is still agency and potential for productive and subversive power in those choices.
Among other things I’ve said.
“So the argument boils down to for or against bullshit excuses. Thank for clearing that up.”
Pretty much. Apparently our choices are obey the patriarchy or be called a fake feminist.
Yeah, getting called a fake feminist by somebody who evidently believes in bloodthirsty fantasies is a huge worry of mine. It’s just that now after mention of ‘dwama’ all I can picture is Elmer Fudd. With big fake tits.
“I never accused you of not being a ‘real feminist’.”
Dclareing my point “oh so feminist” wasn’t an accusation of not being feminist? Hmmm. Are you actually Karl Rove? because that level of spin and denial is impressive.
Your “critique” has already been dealt with. We clearly don’t see eye to eye. I fail to see the point in continuing this aimless conversation.
please feel free to manufacture yet another insult from this post too.
“Dclareing my point “oh so feminist” wasn’t an accusation of not being feminist?”
No. It was an accusation that your point is not very feminist.
As for whether or not you are a True Real Feminist™, or just a feminist, I’ll let you decide of that. See, I’m all about giving people the same credit as I give myself to self-identify as they wish.
But more importantly, I don’t really care how you or other people self-identify as. To me, the outcome of what you do with your politics is more important and significant than how you label your politics.
It’s kind of funny how that standard only gets applied to one side in this debate, though.
“Your “critique” has already been dealt with. We clearly don’t see eye to eye. I fail to see the point in continuing this aimless conversation.”
Oh really? Where? I don’t see anyone explaining how what is going on here is contributing to any productive transformation of the current oppressive politics around women’s bodies. Except for repeating ad nauseum that women who get fake tits should be self-reflective about their choice. Which most who posted here have clearly been doing. What next? Is that the extent of the transformative strategy here?
Where’s the conversation about the fact that maybe - just maybe - Amanda’s approach in introducing a discussion on the politics of women’s bodies was not the best strategy ever, nor the most coherent with her feminist politics? Where’s the discussion and ‘critical feminist questioning’ of Amanda’s choice in writting this post?
Where are the comments reacting to some posters, such as ginmar, calling other women ‘bitch’, ‘tit jobber’, or other such lovely names? Where’s the ’sisterhood’ when those women are attacked?
Where’s the discussion of the complex and messy issue of power as oppressive and subversive in relation to women’s bodies?
“If a woman said, ‘Yeah, I got breast implants because it helped me marry up and now I don’t have to work,’ I’d at least applaud her forthright no-bullshit attitude.”
This kind of reminds me of something that happened in fourth grade. I was a nerdy loner in a public school in which I alternated between getting pushed around by the “burnout” and “popular” gropus and wanting to be part of them. We were given some advanced math problems in an area we hadn’t learned yet, and without thinking I raised my hand and answered one of them. The teacher looked at me, as did some of the “popular” girls I wanted to like me, and asked how I had gotten the answer.
I said “my mom taught me how to do this.” It was the right answer. It was what the popular group wanted to hear and I escaped getting taunted for lying or being a “geek” — for the afternoon, anyway.
As it happened, my mom has a math phobia and doesn’t even feel comfortable helping my three-year-old with addition. But still, it was the right answer.
Similarly, here, “I did it for the menz! I did it to marry up!” appears to be the “right answer.” It will ensure, apparently, that one is not taunted or accused of lying.
Even if, sadly, “for the menz” would be a lie. Or a small grain of an answer that lies elsewhere.
It’s too bad that even with big girls, some answers just aren’t good enough, even if they’re true.
Gee, I notice the way you once again ignore any offense given by the lovely Ren Ev, BD, and others of that ilk. You know, the ones you agree with. You can’t really expect anybody to take you and your faux outrage seriously, can you?
Basically, what it comes down to is that women who have TIT JOBS—I’m so happy I said that again—-want feminists to kiss their ass and simper and hold their hand and coo and praise them. Ain’t gonna happen. Kind of like you guys being honest about wanting that level of ass kissing over your decisions. Somehow I don’t think that’ll happen. Nobody’s stopping you from having a tit job. You’re just whining because you’re not getting the applause you think you deserve for enhancing yourself.
It’s funny, Octogolore, how the feminists in this thread are being accused of both thinking we’re psychic and yet being stump stupid in your case, for rejecting answers you’re sure are accurate. Which is it? RE accuses Amanda of arrogantly thinking she knows all; you accuse ‘big girls’ of rejecting answers that don’t fit the dogma.
You want to have your cake and eat it, too. You want tit jobs and silent feminists, but at the same time you want to bash away at feminists while declaring anything we do to be of limits and out of line.
It’s kind of charming, actually, because it’s so obvious.
Gin;
I don’t have to reaffirm my dislike of cracking on womens appearances in every post ever to appease you. I’ve said it countless times. Not saying it this time does not discount all the other times I’ve said it. I am under no obligation to do what you think I should do and say what you think I should say at all times, ever.
Oh, and I never said it was a joke…apparently, once again, someone said that I said it was a joke, which I did not. It was not a threat, but I never said it was a joke either. So, let’s not be oh so dishonest about what it is that I said.
Move to strike as nonresponsive.
ginmar:
I have absolutely no idea who you are. I’ve never had a conversation with you prior to this thread. However, you’re first engagement with my comments here has been to tell me that I’m a little girl who see feminism as ‘grrl-power’ and that I should shut up and let the grown ups real feminists talk among themselves. Next, you used my handle as a way to condescendingly call me ‘bitch’. Which btw, as I always say to the boys online who do the same, calling me a bitch after I’ve already appropriated the term in my screen name is not the most creative nor effective insult in the world.
So yeah - pardon me if I don’t jump to your defense when people seem unpleased by the way your treat them and engage them.
Yeah, Ren, except you claimed you’d done it here. Which you hadn’t. The whole abrupt switch from ‘boob jobs’ to ‘big breasted women OMG’ thing didn’t fool anybody, but it was pretty obvious. IOW, you didn’t get away with it. I have only your word for what you do elsewhere, and your word is shit to me, so who cares? Oh, yeah, and your bloodthirsty fantasy thing evidently is quite popular with at least one of your friends, so color me unimpressed, but you knew that already.
You know, DB, I was kind of sorry I called you and BD bitch both but now I’m not. And you’re missing all the bullshit pulled in this thread not directed at me, but hey, you just go on ahead, sparky. It doesn’t show or anything.
So, once again, it boils down to people who want feminists to kiss their asses and validate their choices. I mean, I could use lots of big words and shit, but that’s what it boils down to. You want your boob jobs and you want feminists to either shut up or kiss your ass about it.
Try wishing for a pony, too.
There’s a real simple solution to that dilemma, DB; don’t ask feminists to kiss your ass and hold your hand. Nobody’s entitled to that.
Nobody’s trying to take your saline away. I do notice, however, that you were the one threatening to take people’s feminist cards away; that’s the very first thing I remember about you. Evidently you’re the feminist enforcer. I wasn’t aware there’d been an election.
Also, how fucking hard are these damned numbers to read? It took me something like seven tries to post.
“Also, how fucking hard are these damned numbers to read? It took me something like seven tries to post.”
Registration is your friend. Eliminates CAPTCHA…
Gin, look around this thread, there are big breasted women (natural) saying it upsets them. On their own, of their own volition, I don’t need to speak for them.
And yeah, I said some nasty stuff in this thread. Look, owning up. And really, I don’t care if you shut up, and I certainly do not want your lips anywhere near my ass. However, what would be nice is for the assumption that everything is always done, 100%, because the patriarchy wants it with no aspect of free will or thought whatsoever. I mean, shit, that is damn depressing. Botox, yep, a not feminist choice I am totally making for work/Patriarchy/vanity reasons. Tit job, not so much….and I think a lot of women make many choices on that kind of a sliding personal/patriarchy scale. You don’t have to agree at all, but it is something to consider.
And I’m not all that impressed either. Two sides to all bullshit and all. I think as highly of you as you do of me, with all the same qualifications and whatever else. Shrug. Oh well. Cynical capitalist me and all, I suspect I will sleep just fine tonight.
“So, once again, it boils down to people who want feminists to kiss their asses and validate their choices. I mean, I could use lots of big words and shit, but that’s what it boils down to. You want your boob jobs and you want feminists to either shut up or kiss your ass about it.”
Well, I can’t speak for women who have fake tits or are considering getting fake tits, but given that I don’t have fake tits for feminists to approve or disapprove of, I’ll say that your analysis there is missing the point, at least when it comes to my critique of what you and others have been arguing here.
More generally, I’m not looking for feminism to approve of my choices, nor do I expect feminists to either shut up or kiss my ass for the choices I make. I am however looking for feminism to help me deal with our fucked up world on a daily basis, and to work toward its transformation into something more just, more equal, more democratic. And in my views, strangely enough, that has never included refusing to acknowledge that most women, while clearly under much pressure to conform, also have a mind of their own. But then, my feminism allows for complexity, messiness, tensions, and isn’t satisfied with a oppressed/oppressor dichotomic understanding of our reality.
Yeah, and Amanda already shot that down. I have big boobs, thank you very much, and I used to have little ones, and I can see both sides of Amanda’s comments about her own size. Some people came here loaded for bear and you were one of them.
Look, have all the plastic surgery you want. I really don’t give a shit. But just like BD is going to call me every name under the sun just because she’s got rage issues that make me look well-adjusted, I’m going to have something to say about it and so are lots of other feminists. You want to shut us up. You don’t want us to have the option of analyzing that, or even saying something as simple as “own up”. You want to shut us up because we won’t validate your choices. Hell, it appears that some of the sex pozzes aren’t even happy with that, they want feminist ass kissing, just because a woman did something.
And that has nothing to do with women who have big boobs. All along you’ve been commenting on tit jobs, not big boobs. I’ve said it before and you keep ignoring it in the vain hope it will go away. It won’t. I read all your comments to the point where I first commented, and you had nothing to say but boob jobs, so your concern for your big breasted sisters arrived rather tardily.
As to how you sleep I simply couldn’t give a shit. With friends like BD you obviously have standards I can’t and don’t want to imagine.
“There’s a real simple solution to that dilemma, DB; don’t ask feminists to kiss your ass and hold your hand. Nobody’s entitled to that.”
Huh? What dilemma? Why exactly do you see me as expecting feminists to kiss my ass and hold my hand? For what? The only feminists I expect to kiss my ass are the ones I fuck. But I don’t expect them to do so because they’re feminist - I expect it because they’re naked in my bed.
“Nobody’s trying to take your saline away. I do notice, however, that you were the one threatening to take people’s feminist cards away; that’s the very first thing I remember about you. Evidently you’re the feminist enforcer. I wasn’t aware there’d been an election.”
Read again. I don’t have saline for you to disapprove of. Not that it should matters.
As for the feminist card reference — I wasn’t aware that such a thing exists for real. To all of you holding a Real Feminist™ card in your wallet: I apologize for making a comment that made you feel threatened that I would take it away from you. I assure you that I have no intention of taking your card away from you. Really. It was a joke. Yes yes, a bad one. I apologize and promise to be more careful in future to not make any of you insecure about me revoking your right to this card.
Oh, please. This thread is about nothing but the fact that women who get boob jobs are threatened by any feminist analysis of that decision, even when it takes Amanda’s form of owning up to it. So feminists are supposed to shut up and sit on their hands when women do something stupid or whatever because those women…what, exactly? The horror expressed at the mere concept of feminist speech has been constant and almost overwhelming.
The saline reference was sarcastic.
ginmar, I have pointed out to you before that your understanding of sex work is America-centric and puritanical and wrong. Repeating your error won’t correct it. For starters you might like to try reading the work of the Sex Worker Outreach Project, a union of sex workers in Australia.
I particularly like your unwillingness to use terms which the women themselves have chosen, because it doesn’t suit your particular view of them as victims.
I am particularly amused that you claim to be fighting men’s fantasies. Is the part where you go to war fighting men’s fantasies? Would that be the fantasies of the 101st Fighting Keyboarders, perchance? Or did you mean to say “fighting for men’s fantasies”? I suppose you didn’t get to go to college though, right, so it’s okay for you…
You have chosen a very tolerant forum in which to insult other women, ginmar, because in most forums I have ever visited, a soldier girl bragging about how many push ups she can do and insinuating that she has killed people while telling sex workers they are sluts and whores isn’t really very welcome. Particularly when there is an illegal and criminal war on. But hey, it’s just a job right? Killing muslims and imprisoning women without trial, to be raped by their captors, that’s just a job. But performing sexual acts for money? What sluts!
flashheart
But performing sexual acts for money? What sluts!
No flashheart these women are not “sluts” in the eyes of feminists - only men. Why should women need to “perform” for men - to pay the rent or buy some food? Okay, I’m not talking of the miniscule percentage of “happy hookers” here I’m talking of the vast majority of male demanding poverty stricken women who have no choice but to “perform” like seals for male pleasure.
It’s called survival.
Apparently, some people are happy to stay within a (sexist) understanding of reality where there can be only two choices: being a whore to Teh Patriarchy or being the madona of True Feminism™.
Me and my all natural kissable ass are therefore going to leave this thread to find a cute feminist chick to kiss said ass. ‘Cause I’m a whore that way.
Gee, Flashheart, please point out where I bragged about killing Muslims and called prostitutes whores and sluts. I did none of those things and I’ll thank you to ditch the attitude right now. I also demand an apology for the things you have accused me of.
Like BD and her type, you seem to have a class bias that sees soldiers as heartless killers. In fact, in the US the military is often the only way out of shitty neighborhoods and lives. I’m not going to justify myself to anybody who’s so ignorant and hateful. In your own rage-spitting way, you’re just the same to me as the 101st Fighting Keyboardists, who sound just like you do, except they don’t believe ‘girls’ are in combat. You’re just at the opposite end of the spectrum. You see the Army as a monolith. Whether you’re a man or a woman, you’re an asshole. I’ve met better liberals than you in the military.
The fact is, women the world over are trafficked into prostitution and abused. Every study that researches prostitution finds that women want to get out in overwhelming numbers. Get over your Australia centric attitude, and hell, just learn to read. I said none of the things you accused me of. Apologize or fuck off.
Here’s some helpful tips:
1. Someone else accused feminists of calling prostitutes and strippers sluts. This is bullshit, probably from Ren Ev, who’s good at this kind of thing.
2. Ren Ev tried to back away from a bloody revenge fantasy she wrote about on her website, which BD then accused me of sharing, because of course she think that soldiers must be bloodthirsty killers.
3. 101st Fighting Keyboardists are a bunch of guys who never serve and who harass women like me. As a matter of fact, they hate women in the exact same way that you’ve exhibited hatred toward me.
4. I came back from Iraq with a Koran, a knowledge of Islam and Muslim culture, a changed view of the Middle East and Middle Eastern friends. Not that I expect you to give a shit, because you’re one of those types that think that soldiers are all savages. WAy to go. I can safely ignore anything you say from now on now that I know what a lying, illiterate asshole you actually are.
The interests of lesbianism and what passes these days as feminism will never be the same.
As a woman who actually likes sex with women, boobs are an qualified good thing. Real, fake. Saline, saggy. Big or barely there. All good.
Oh, yeah, Flashheart, and while we’re at it, take that puritan label and your sex worker justifcations and pound it up your ass in the name of all the trafficked and prostituted women and children out there who don’t meet your happy hooker illusions.
And don’t call me a girl again, asswipe. I’m not a girl and I’ve forgotten more about real prostitution than you’ll ever know. Stick to your happy hookers and your ten percenters. Just get out of my way.
Christ, I hate the exceptionalists. They always take the call girls and ignore the street prostitutes who are doing what they do to survive.
((((((((((((ginmar!))))))))))))
First off, thank you for your service.
Second, thanks for fighting the good fight on your own lj and on this thread. You are fabulous!
“1. Someone else accused feminists of calling prostitutes and strippers sluts. This is bullshit, probably from Ren Ev, who’s good at this kind of thing.”
Incorrect. Though I do note that certain radical feminists are great at accusing me of saything things I did not say. But hey, thats typical bullshit from Gin, who is good at that kind of thing.
“2. Ren Ev tried to back away from a bloody revenge fantasy she wrote about on her website, which BD then accused me of sharing, because of course she think that soldiers must be bloodthirsty killers”
I never backed away from it. I have admitted since day one that I said it. I never said it was a joke, I said that it was not a threat. I said it was a violent statement made while angry. And I have never once denied saying it.
Now, you can ask people to own up to shit, but you need to do the same. You can accuse people of lying/half truths/whatever else, but you do the same. The wonderful hobbey of attributing things to me that I’ve never said and accussing me of things I am not doing or have not done and making all sorts of wonderful assumptions seems to be quite popular in some circles. Fine, you all need your entertainment I suppose….but it doesn’t make it true.
Quoth DeservingBitch:
I suppose it’s just possible Amanda is a human being, with personal foibles, and it struck her funny because, despite years of feminist work, it can still be difficult to throw off early social programming.
Or she could secretly be supporting Teh Patriarchy while trolling the feminist community at large.
Two points on the spectrum…
Yeah, Ren Ev, you’ll excuse me for doubting your spotless credibility with your little group, but I don’t give a shit. Flashheart’s obviously learned the tactics from the bullshit artists here. Oh, yeah, that’s right. That would be your faction, where not mentioning that you make money off tit jobs passes for an excuse.
So, anyway, did you have anything to share with the class or is it the same old bullshit? Ah, yes, same old bullshit. What a shock.
And BD’s your buddy, and she accused me of sharing her bloody fantasy. You can have a chat with Flashheart, seeing as how it’s the fault of you two. Good job, that. Get to work, chop chop.
I don’t even know who flashheart is. Nice blame placing though. You have a special gift for it, really. Nevermind proof or fact. Deny deny deny and be right because obviously there is something in you that cannot ever afford to be wrong. Hell, even Belle and I can do that. Down the rabbit hole and into never never land once again you go. This is my lack of surprise out of you, Gin.
And enjoy your own back pats and cheers based on half truths and lies, because we both know you are getting them for both.
” suppose it’s just possible Amanda is a human being, with personal foibles, and it struck her funny because, despite years of feminist work, it can still be difficult to throw off early social programming.
Or she could secretly be supporting Teh Patriarchy while trolling the feminist community at large.
Two points on the spectrum… ”
See, contrary to you and others who’ve commented here, I’m not really interested in the blame game or in determining to a precise degree how much of Amanda’s choice here was affected by Teh Patriarchy. But yes, if you won’t to go there, I’d agree with you that it probably has something to do with the first option you suggest there, with a dose of straight privilege.
But while this exercise of critical reflection to examine what could explain her choice as an author may be productive for Amanda herself to do, me, what I would have been interested in is a discussion on the effects/outcomes of such choice with the idea of discussing more productive ways of addressing this issue.
In case my multiple comments about Amanda’s post were not clear enough: I have never suggested that Amanda is not a feminist, or that she’s a bad/fake feminist. I have merely pointed out that her post and some of her comments were problematic and maybe a tad incoherent with her feminist politics. And that some of the effects of it were to close rather than opening up space for productive and transformative discussion, which I assume was her goal.
And pointed out the hypocrisy of many commenters here asking women with fake tits to spend their life reflecting about their choice to get fake boobs while refusing to see the blatant heterosexism going on in Amanda’s post, in the article she linked to, and in many of the comments here.
And yep, I lied. I’m still here. There was no cute feminist chick around to kiss my ass.
Oh for the sake of Saint Fuck of Fucksenbourg, RE, why don’t you just give up?
Some of us have read the whole thread, we saw how you acted, we saw how Ginmar and others responded, and we can tell who is full of shit here.
Flewellyn…I don’t even know you to the best of my knowledge…and really, you must be standing downwind of yourself then. Gin came here specifically looking for a fight with me and Belle, her first comment isn’t anything but an attempt at picking one. Yeah, I layed into Amanda, backed off a bit, and tried to engage after in a more civil manner. But no, not Gin…she just kept right on at it. So why don’t you give it up, whoever the hell you are? Psh, must be the snotty girl in me talking again, you are so not even worth engaging. Same old song and dance. Here’s the deal, you want to accuse me of something…have proof. Don’t move the goal posts, don’t just say well I bet you did, don’t assume…prove it.
Otherwise, its all just more of that bullshit you’re smelling, which, you know, check the bottom of your shoes.
I suppose it’s just possible Amanda is a human being, with personal foibles
She’s not a feminazi-bot sent back from the future to emasculate 21st century Mankind and render the Earth vulnerable to alien invasion?
Well, there go my operating assumptions.
Heterosexism? Oops. I guess DangerousBitch or whatever the fuck her name is was making it up when she said a Lesbian friend of hers had a tit job.
Oh, and flashheart, this one’s for you. This is how I feel about Iraqis and Muslims: http://ginmar.livejournal.com/258019.html
Fuck you so very very much.
When you think of Iraq, don’t think of terrorists or Saddam Hussein. Think of Rania and her mother’s hospitality, of the American soldiers sweating on her doorstep and sipping tea from little glasses on a ninety-degree day. Muktadi Sadr does not represent Iraq and no matter how many people he kills or attacks, he never will.
Fuck you so very very much. I hope you visit the States. I hope you try and say shit like this to my face. I doubt very much your ignorance and arrogance will be a punishment to you: you’re going to wind up punishing other people, probably women, witht your pretenses for a long time. But, still—fuck you.
flashheart - December 3, 2007 at 7:15 pm
So is there no sex slavery in Australia then, no human trafficking? No women engaging in sex work to support their drug addiction?
Amanda: I’m large breasted, and I didn’t think this was a slam on large breasts. I’m mystified. I saw it more as a laugh at the stereotypes associated with large fake breasts. Conversely, as a woman with large breasts and *gasp* PALE BLONDE HAIR (Yes. The double whammy), I constantly CONSTANTLY get dished out with the exact stereotypes you’re talking about for the fake ones. I work in tech, and constantly get people assuming I’m stupid. I’m not. I’m actually one of the best they have. I get talked to differently. Conversations with guys at work always carry some sexual undertone. Not that they’re hitting on me, just that they think I “get it.” Because y’know… blonde with DDs. Clearly I’m all about the sex, all the time. The problem is not the breasts, or the size of the breasts, the problem is with the association to fecundity we’ve put onto them. The proof in that pudding? My FAVORITE (sarcasm here) slang for breasts: Fun bags. I don’t begrudge anyone their vanity, or their boob jobs. I simply posit that having bigger ‘fun bags’ isn’t going to make you a better person. Just a person with bigger breasts.
Gosh I love my breasts.
But never for a moment would I hold it against anyone who chose to change theirs. My motives are often questionable, but I don’t deserve to have them questioned.
“Heterosexism? Oops. I guess DangerousBitch or whatever the fuck her name is was making it up when she said a Lesbian friend of hers had a tit job.”
Huh? Color me confused here. Yep, I know a few queer women with fake tits, one of which is a friend. Why is it exactly that you’re accusing me of lying about it? I can’t be pointing out heterosexism in a post/article/comment AND have a queer friend with fake tits???
And it’s DeservingBitch. Easy to look it up, I’ve been posting a few comments here. You can also call me DB, I don’t mind. Or Bitch, but don’t forget the big B.
flashheart - December 3, 2007 at 7:15 pm
So is there no sex slavery in Australia then, no human trafficking? No women engaging in sex work to support their drug addiction?
Christ on a fucking crutch already. You have lesbian friends with tit jobs and you want to argue about semantics? What the fuck is wrong with you?
“Christ on a fucking crutch already. You have lesbian friends with tit jobs and you want to argue about semantics? What the fuck is wrong with you?”
What now? I’m not queer enough? My queer friend with fake boobs are not queer enough? Here’s another one for you: I wear high heels AND I love to fuck women with a big fat strapon cock. How un-queer is THAT?
And how fucking unfeminist of me to - gasp - not give a flying fuck about the origin of my friends’ tits, be they straight or queer? What’s wrong with me indeed?
God, you’re as dishonest as the rest of them. If lesbians embrace the dominant paradigm, it’s okay?
RenEv, Miss College Girl, doesn’t understand the difference between “Layed” and ‘Laid.” I came here looking for a fight? You came here with the usual bullshit in tow. Here’s an offering: Here’s your first two comments:
Wow Amanda…aren’t you charming?
Pretty amazing how you have the hardline lowdown on the esteem levels and worldly worth of women with implants like that! How hip and indie punk cool of you! I mean, it takes a set of brass ovaries for a feminist to rip on women’s appearances, possible motivations, position in society and feelings like that!
Funny, a lot of people would suggest that moreso than implants a woman who does this sort of thing and tears down other women in order to show how much more superior, intelligent, hip and cool she is might be the one suffering from esteem issues and a sense of desperation. Because wow, aren’t you just so much better and confident than those girls with the tits full of saline?
Hell, I have implants, yet I’ve never felt the need to crack on women without them or assume to know their motivations or levels of self esteem or apparent worth in the world, funny that a woman without them feels the need to do exactly that.
Interesting indeed.
Gee Amanda…is being able to find bras and clothes that fit an okay reason for you? Because I know for a fact it is pretty hard to find bras in a 38 almost A in a lot of stores out there.
People get implants for a whole lot of reasons, and you know what, if some of those reasons are to make them feel more attractive, what’s the big deal? People get braces and dye their hair for similar reasons, they also dress in various manners, groom in various manners, so on. And yep, people may also do it to fit in with various people…the same way some people in some groups get tattoos, or get pierced, or engage in other body modifications. Sometimes they do any and all of these things as a point of self expression.
My problem, you see, is that so many people apparently think it is all about the men, 100%, which is the way you came off, and that you assume to know so much about other people’s (well, women with implants anyway) motives & level of self esteem. Which you can’t, and you don’t. It’s arrogant and dismissive, and women take enough of that in daily life.
A woman can do a lot of things to make herself feel better about herself or change her body or take some control over it. She can work out. She can diet. She can dye her hair. She can bleach her teeth. She wear what she wants and makes her feel good or comfortable. Most people don’t make a huge deal out of this, but if she gets implants, oh shit, suddenly she has issues! I don’t understand why boobs- something that women have naturally in some form or another- become such a huge deal when altered. A fake set of tits are not the window to the soul.
Unless, that is, she wants to deny any sort of capitulation to the patriarchy.
I have no need to prove what is patently obvious! It’s right up in this thread for all to see. You came in loaded for bear, and threw down the gauntlet of “you’re not affirming my choices!”
I read your “Why are feminists so mean to me?” post back on Feministe, as well. That was basically more of the same: all must bow to the sanctified, untouchable glory of YOUR PERSONAL CHOICES, regardless of whether or not those choices reflect the greater culture, or even make any sense.
Frankly, you’ve not given us any reason why we should care what you think to begin with.
“God, you’re as dishonest as the rest of them. If lesbians embrace the dominant paradigm, it’s okay?”
First, you’ll note that I’ve identified as queer and not as lesbian. There are some real, serious, political, and personal reasons for that. If you don’t mind, I’d like you to respect the way I choose to self-identify and use queer rather than lesbian when referring to me or my sexuality.
Second, what dominant paradigm are you talking about? And what exactly makes me dishonest? My queer friend with fake boobs? My heels? My strapon cock? Or the fact that I don’t judge someone or the value of their politics based on their tits? All of the above?
Ginmar, I think you’re overreacting. I was merely trying to point out that one should extend to others the same understanding and consideration one asks for oneself. Particularly in this case:
if one were to join an institution whose stated purpose is to murder, torture and rape other people; which had failed to sign certain internationally accepted protocols aimed at minimising the catastrophes it could cause; and whose purpose is questioned by many feminists, or even seen as universally evil; well, one’s motivations would be considered questionable. If one were then to ask others to understand your choice - because, you know, you “couldn’t go to college” or it is a “good career” for working class people - well, i would hope that one would be interested in extending the same consideration to others. Say, for example, women who choose to work in an institution where some people get raped.
I know you are going to question my initial sentence there, so let me remind you: your administration has a policy of torture, torture is used in Guantanamo Bay, and there is at least one case of an individual in Guantanamo Bay being anally raped. The people who did that can surely be identified (the person’s interrogators are known, after all) but have not been, nor will they be punished. This is because torture is a policy at Guantanamo Bay. Torture applied by your institution, of which you are a member. So if you want people to understand that this is “Just a job” to you, if you want us to understand that the difference between you and the rapists is not merely that they received the order and you didn’t, well, you should probably extend the same consideration to others. (And let’s not forget that million dead when we tot up the balance sheet of who needs to understand whose choices…)
Also as I have said before, I am not an “exceptionalist” about sex work - I just happen to know about more aspects of it than the trafficking with which you are obssessed. I am disappointed that you insist on ignoring the information that is available about other forms of sex-work than slavery which occur every day and which normal, healthy women engage in.
You are also clearly using a madonna/whore dichotomy in your discussion of sex workers (witness how you refuse to even use their own term of empowerment!); and your original comment about the two types of women was the source of my insinuations about “sluts”. If you can accuse RenegadeEvolution of false consciousness, I feel I can do the same to you. Even though it has, by my present count, led to at least 4 sentences which contain an attempt at some kind of implied brutality (”get out of my way”, “fuck you”, “shove it up your arse” and “you better not meet me”).
Charming work there ginmar, and hence my original point: you are overreacting.
Hey, I admitted I was harsh to Amanda. Wooo, I guess only Ginmar is allowed to have a bad day! And soldier girl, for as much as you whine about attacking people you sure do a whole hell of a lot of it yourself. You dish it out constantly but get so offended when people give it right back to you. Pathetic. And gee, you can’t accuse me of disrepecting your military service because I don’t, or your intelligence, because I haven’t. You can drag up a violent statement of mine when you and your buddies have all sorts of fun talking about how you’d like to choke, slap, kick, punch, lobotomize whatever else the “sex poz”, and hey, you went ahead and took my own violent statement, changed a word or two, and used it yourself…oh, and always with the “I’d kick so and so’s ass if I saw them in RL”. Yeah, a lot of cred there on the condemnation of violent statements.
Flewelyn: Who the fuck are you again? Hey, I guess if Belle and I are a tag team, Gin needs a partner too, eh? And typical…”Oh you were harsh on Amanda….so OBVIOUSLY any other rumor or thing I heard from someone, somewhere, that I said is SOLID truth, right? You still play the telephone game?
And I can still see you are missing the ENTIRE point of my post on feministe, which was “why do women have to judge eachother on appearance?” NO, it wasn’t love the beauty standards and fake boobs- you MUST conform- it was all women face pressure and whether they don’t shave or wear make up or do wax and wear make up and whatever else, why, if we are sick of it ourselves, do we do it to eachother? Remember that reading comprehension thing? Try it on before judging it in other people.
And if either of you think I personally care if either of you ever accept me or my choices, you are nuts. At this point you just amuse me because you are so damn righteous yet full of it. Double standards alive and well. Sorry if when the type of women you are so busy “examining” tells you to step off, thanks I can think for myself” it screws with your perfect oppresed poster girl image, but alas, too bad. Us & Them indeed, but really, have you picked a team capitan yet?
Right Gin, I am back to smirking now.
“Oh really? Where?”
*snort* I suppose it was too much to ask for you to stop soapboxing long enough to actually read the replies.
__
Flewellyn:
“I read your “Why are feminists so mean to me?” post back on Feministe, as well. That was basically more of the same: all must bow to the sanctified, untouchable glory of YOUR PERSONAL CHOICES, regardless of whether or not those choices reflect the greater culture, or even make any sense.”
Exactly. And this dovetails nicely into what I said at the start - the only point is to silence the criticism. They want to be able to do and say whatever they like but can’t take what they dish out.
But, I’m still trying to figure out why women who want everyone to beleive they are oh-so-comfortable with their choices have such a desperate need to get validation from others.
This is useless. People only want to hear what they want to hear. Betty, I am not trying to silence anyone. Was I the one telling folk they should not be allowed to post/comment whereever they please? Um, no. I am all for accepting womens choices, and assuming they have examined them. After all, you don’t see me going off on women who don’t shave their legs…because I respect their decision to do so, be it for political feminist reasons, personal preferance reasons, or because they just don’t like shaving. More power to ‘em! That’s the difference right there. And it still amuses the hell out of me that people can moan and whine when I make a post on judging women, yet never bother to, oh, look at anything (for instance, on Feministe) that I said about law, sex ed, racism, ect. That leads me to believe that why yes, it is a personal hot button issue for people other than me.
Whatever, y’all have fun not accepting the choices of women that differ from your own and assuming they have not examined.
And Ren Ev has once again showed up on a feminist blog that she usually ignores solely to talk about her tits to feminists. Soldiergirl, eh? Well, stripper girl, have fun making money till you age out. I really liked the fake charge of calling strippers sluts and whores, or whichever of you porn apologists used that lie. Whatev. You all blend together after awhile, what with the same excuses.
And Flashheart, sweetie, no man gets to tell a woman she’s over reacting especially when he’s a lying piece of prostitute-abusing shit like you. Term of empowerment? Yeah, go fuck yourself and spare some poor prostitute the trouble. You’re just trying to justify what gets you off. I have a buddy over at my blog who remembers you, pornstitution consumer. Don’t talk to me about empowerment.
Try ‘hysterical’ next time, asshole. It’s just as sexist, but at least it labels you right up front for what you are.
Oh, yeah, and the stated purpose of the military is not rape, murder and torture. Thank for assuming the military is a monolith of savage killers, though! It’s such a revealing trope, but then again, your psychic powers aren’t that great.
Guess nobody on the pro-body mutilation side wants to support a woman’s right to a natural body unaffected by society’s demands that she mutilate herself to please men. I guess womens’ bodies really are revolting, if there’s a whole industry devoted to cutting them apart and sewing them back together to some unattainable standard.
Uhhh, HTML point here: the comment count has a leading black digit in the dark green area, so any comments over 99 seem to loop around. the number is there, it’s just near impossible to read.
As I discovered when I tried to navigate this huge ass comment area……….
“*snort* I suppose it was too much to ask for you to stop soapboxing long enough to actually read the replies.”
Oh I did read the entire thread, thankyouverymuch. And the constant that I see, is that none of the few comments criticizing what is going on here (for instance by Elaine, Lisa, Octagalore, belledame, Renegate Evolution, or me) have been honestly addressed and//or engaged with.
You are all happy to suggest that we’re only trying to silence the discussion and just want feminist to approve of our choices. No. That’s not what we’ve been saying.
A few of us however have been repeatedly asking what is the desired outcome of this discussion, and more precisely, what’s the desire outcome of repeating ad nauseaum that women with fake tits (WWFT) need to reflect on their choice — when no demonstration of lack of said reflection has been given — and/or telling them that their choice is all about the male gaze and male approval. What exactly are you trying to accomplish with this? What’s your feminist project? How is that project, and women, served by the discussion in this thread?
In addition to the above, what I fail to understand is your apparent attachement to women’s oppressed status. How can you fucking believe that anything can change if you are so adamant to believe that women can’t think for themselves, can’t make the best choices for themselves in the current order, and can’t of course be reflectixe about these choices unless you come to tell them that their choices are influenced by the current oppressive and exploitative culture?
I’m a queer femme. I perform ‘feminine’ in my daily life. I wear heels, makeup, short skirt, fishnets, and whatnot. And I’m sick of (straight) feminists telling me that i’m doing it for the men. Give me a fucking break. I could care less about what men think of my body or my appearance. Is my gender performance as femme influenced by Teh Patriarchy? Why, of course. Eh - I live in the same world you do. Of course my tastes and aesthetics is at least partly influenced by the dominant culture. Now what? Am I supposed to keep flageling myslef for my crime of living in this world that has influenced my tastes, desires, aesthetics, etc.? Or could you just fucking give me the same credit you give yourself that I have and am already being reflective about my choices? And that maybe, I’m happy with them. And that is has absolutely fuck all to do with pleasing Teh Menz.
So, unless you have something more productive to say than ‘you’ve capitulated to Teh Patriarchy by wearing heels/fake tits’, could we please move on already?
note: ‘you’ here is used mostly as a general, impersonal you, and not specifically directed at Betty.
“Guess nobody on the pro-body mutilation side wants to support a woman’s right to a natural body unaffected by society’s demands that she mutilate herself to please men”
Oh, they will as long as we celebrate their choice to capitulate to patriarchy. And as long as we don’t call it what it is - capitulation to patriarchy.
But if we talk about it and disagree with it - Oh no! That must be stopped! They can’t allow women to talk about something that effects women unless its in tone of complete and utter celebration.
They like to pretend otherwise, I notice, but it routinely comes back to the same point: “So, unless you have something more productive to say than ‘you’ve capitulated to Teh Patriarchy by wearing heels/fake tits’, could we please move on already?”
Which is “shut up, sit down, and stop talking about things that upset me” in prettier words. Though its still hilariously hypocritical since I already said enough already.
“They like to pretend otherwise, I notice, but it routinely comes back to the same point: “So, unless you have something more productive to say than ‘you’ve capitulated to Teh Patriarchy by wearing heels/fake tits’, could we please move on already?”
Which is “shut up, sit down, and stop talking about things that upset me” in prettier words.”
Read again.
What I’m saying (along with others) is unless you have a more productive goal than telling me what I already know (ie. no choices are made in a vaccum and my heels/her fake tits are influenced by the current culture), could we just please move on?
I’m not upset that you don’t approve of my or other women’s choices. I’m not the least offended that you disaprove of fake tits. I am offended though that you insult my and other women’s intelligence by assuming they can’t be self-reflective about their choice unless you shame them for those choices. And I am fucking offended when straight feminists assume that those choices are all about Teh Menz and capitulation to Teh Patriarchy. When you fuck boys, are you also capitulating to Teh Patriarchy? Or is it only my, and other women’s choices you disagree with that are capitulation to Teh Patriarchy?
Gin: you’re really reaching here. Do whatever you want with your body, it is yours after all. Be as all natural as you want, that’s great…just know not everyone will make the same choices as you…and round and round and round. And yeah, look another post where I comment (rare thou as it may be here…for which my reasons are not as simple as you might think) and look, another thread where you come in to rage all over me and belledame for…why? We have a different opinion and decided to voice it? What, you can tell us where to talk and not talk? How’s that for silencing, Betty? We shouldn’t be here because we’re not feminist enough so how dare we speak our opinions? In essence shut up?
Got it. Ayep.
“Guess nobody on the pro-body mutilation side wants to support a woman’s right to a natural body unaffected by society’s demands that she mutilate herself to please men”
My body is as natural and unmodified as they come. No fake tits, no cosmetic surgery of any kind, no ink, no piercing, no branding, nothing. So, yeah, I kind of support women’s right to not put her body through modification and surgery or whatnot if she doesn’t want to. And yes, I do support critique, activism, and work that serve to help women deal with society’s pressures to conform to particular ideals of beauty.
But I still fail to understand how this post and most of the comments that followed are productive in serving this goal.
And could we just please stop with the ‘pleasing men’ shit? In case you haven’t heard, there are quite a few queer women out there. Every fucking time that you say something like ‘women do this to please the men’ you erase queer women. At least, fucking own your straight bias and say ’straight women do this to please the men’. It won’t be more true or anything, but at least you won’t be erasing queer women from being ‘women’.
What’s got me up in arms, personally, about Ren Ev and her buddies isn’t that they got the tit jobs, really. It’s other stuff.
1. I am not a big visitor of feminist blogs on a regular basis, because I am lazy and I like LJ’s friendsview better for that kind of stuff. But the only time Gin gets fired up about Ren Ev is when RE’s commenting–and RE only ever seems to comment when someone’s talking about boob jobs. Either implants are THE ONLY FEMINIST ISSUE OUT THERE, or RE doesn’t give a flying fuck about feminism and only wants to take people to task when they talk smack about her favorite surgery. WTF?
2. RE and her buddies do not seem to know the difference between feminists discussing the political implications of tit jobs IN THEIR OWN BLOGS, and feminists going to RE’s and other antifeminists’ blogs specifically to give them crap about their tit jobs. Just because I or anyone else wants to wax philosophical about the implications of plastic surgery DOES NOT MEAN I’m saying that women who get the surgery aren’t thinking things through politically.
3. But, at the same time, just because you got the surgery doesn’t mean you thought things through all the way. AND, just because YOU think you thought things through all the way doesn’t mean you actually did so. AND, even if you did, just because you came to a decision doesn’t mean it was the right decision objectively. If I’m supposed to accept a decision on its own merits just because a thinking human being made it, why’d we fry Ted Bundy? OK, tit jobs are not murder, but isn’t there a whole range of possibilities on the spectrum between “objectively right” and “objectively wrong” where someone might still screw up?
It’s one thing to decide to wear makeup or not, to wear high heels or not. Those choices are reversible and non-invasive. But you’re asking me to believe that getting an unnecessary SURGERY, where YOU RISK INFECTION, ALLERGIC REACTION AND DEATH, is something you just did because you felt like it.
Are you a fucking MORON?
And…
4. Anyone who says they make choices ENTIRELY outside the purview of culture IS A LIAR. And AS you HAVE made your choices in the context of INFLUENCE BY CULTURE, you DID NOT make them all by yourself. Other voices weighed in to your decision. THEY ALWAYS DO. Homo sapiens is a social animal, and Homo sapiens is a creature of culture, not instinct. We get our cues on how to behave by observing others and taking other people’s opinions into account, ALWAYS. It is impossible to behave otherwise.
It wouldn’t have occurred to you to get a tit job if we didn’t have tit jobs to get. You didn’t invent them, someone else did. You didn’t do the surgery, someone else did. You didn’t decide that you couldn’t possibly find clothes that fit without the tit job, someone else did–because you don’t make your own clothes, someone else does. You didn’t decide that women with tit jobs make more money in sex work, someone else did. You didn’t decide you were prettier with plastic bags in your boobs, someone else did.
If those things aren’t true, explain to me why–say for instance–traditional Inuit women don’t get tit jobs.
The disingenuousness here is so thick you could scoop it up and sell it as ice cream. I don’t think you’d like the taste, though.
If you don’t have anything to contribute to a real discussion of feminist issues, may I suggest you look elsewhere for conversation. Because I feel I lose IQ points every time I read any of you. You’re contributing nothing here, and you aren’t doing anything revolutionary. You’re kind of pathetic, actually.
And quit assuming that just because someone criticizes a decision that you might have made at some point or another, that they’re attacking you. I wouldn’t even know who the fuck you were, Renegade Evolution, if you never went around yelling “LOOK AT MY TITS, I GOT THEM AUGMENTED AND I LOOOOOVE THEM.” Don’t you have anything better to defend or brag about? I’ve got tits too. I got mine augmented the natural way. Big fucking deal. I’d take the smaller ones back in a second–and guys liked them better, too, if that even matters. (It doesn’t. I’m about fed up with men at this point, actually, for very good reasons.)
And DB, Gin mentioned lesbian women because YOU mentioned a lesbian woman. This is what you did:
DB: I know a lesbian woman who got implants.
Gin: Why are lesbian women kissing up to the patriarchy?
DB: I identify as queer, not lesbian, thank you very much. Queer women queer women blah blah blah.
If you can’t address the conversation honestly instead of switching the parameters around then STFU.
“could we just please move on?”
Like I’ve stated TWICE now, yes we can move on. As soon as you’re done telling all of us what are opinions are. I wouldn’t want to deprive you of yet another opportunity to deliberately misrepresent the statements of those who don’t agree with you.
____
this comment:
Dana Seilhan
December 4, 2007 at 2:28 pm
Says everything I wanted to say, but better. Well done, Dana.
“And DB, Gin mentioned lesbian women because YOU mentioned a lesbian woman. This is what you did:
DB: I know a lesbian woman who got implants.
Gin: Why are lesbian women kissing up to the patriarchy?
DB: I identify as queer, not lesbian, thank you very much. Queer women queer women blah blah blah.
If you can’t address the conversation honestly instead of switching the parameters around then STFU. ”
Not sure what you are responding to here. First, I never refered to my friend as lesbian, but rather as a dyke (her gender self-indentification) or queer (her sexual self-identification). I’ve myself identified as queer, queer femme, but never as lesbian.
“Queer women queer women blah blah blah.”
I guess I shouldn’t be surprised to read such fucking heterosexism here after everything else that has been written. I’m so sorry to remind the straight girls that queer women exist and that a shit load of what is going on here is completely erasing our existence and experience.
And in case you didn’t get the point: I brought up the example of my queer friend with fake tits to highlight the fact that while fake tits are certainly influenced by the current culture, at least in her case, it is ridiculous to sugest that she’s doing it for the menz. I was hoping that this could then be aplied to review and re-think the analysis that women with fake tits are all capitulating to Teh Patriarchy and making this choice to attract men’s attention and approval.
As for the comment about lesbian/queer women kissing up to Teh Patriarchy… I won’t even go into how fucking wrong and offensive it is for a straight girl with straight privilege to come and judge lesbian/queer women and accuse them of kissing up to Teh Patriarchy.
And of course, bringing up queerness in a discussion on women’s bodies is switching the parameters around and I should just STFU.
Talk about examination, self-reflectiveness, and owning your shit.
Dana:
“1. I am not a big visitor of feminist blogs on a regular basis, because I am lazy and I like LJ’s friendsview better for that kind of stuff. But the only time Gin gets fired up about Ren Ev is when RE’s commenting–and RE only ever seems to comment when someone’s talking about boob jobs. Either implants are THE ONLY FEMINIST ISSUE OUT THERE, or RE doesn’t give a flying fuck about feminism and only wants to take people to task when they talk smack about her favorite surgery. WTF?”
Actually, I comment on lots of things in lots of places, just because you have not seen it does not make it so. Same goes for the other feminist issues- which I’ve also talked about in various places-among other things. So, keep your WTF.
“2. RE and her buddies do not seem to know the difference between feminists discussing the political implications of tit jobs IN THEIR OWN BLOGS, and feminists going to RE’s and other antifeminists’ blogs specifically to give them crap about their tit jobs. Just because I or anyone else wants to wax philosophical about the implications of plastic surgery DOES NOT MEAN I’m saying that women who get the surgery aren’t thinking things through politically.”
So we should just shut up and not talk about it either? Right then.
“3. But, at the same time, just because you got the surgery doesn’t mean you thought things through all the way. AND, just because YOU think you thought things through all the way doesn’t mean you actually did so. AND, even if you did, just because you came to a decision doesn’t mean it was the right decision objectively. If I’m supposed to accept a decision on its own merits just because a thinking human being made it, why’d we fry Ted Bundy? OK, tit jobs are not murder, but isn’t there a whole range of possibilities on the spectrum between “objectively right” and “objectively wrong” where someone might still screw up?”
You’re right, tit jobs are not murder…and the whole you may have think you have thought but you really didn’t so on? Well, you are free to think that, and think about it, if you really think and all…
“It’s one thing to decide to wear makeup or not, to wear high heels or not. Those choices are reversible and non-invasive. But you’re asking me to believe that getting an unnecessary SURGERY, where YOU RISK INFECTION, ALLERGIC REACTION AND DEATH, is something you just did because you felt like it.
Are you a fucking MORON?”
Feel free to think so. I also race cars, which is far more likely to kill me, but I do it because I feel like it. Jumped out of an airplane too. Swim in the ocean a lot. Plenty of things which could kill me, but I enjoy doing them.
“And…
4. Anyone who says they make choices ENTIRELY outside the purview of culture IS A LIAR. And AS you HAVE made your choices in the context of INFLUENCE BY CULTURE, you DID NOT make them all by yourself. Other voices weighed in to your decision. THEY ALWAYS DO. Homo sapiens is a social animal, and Homo sapiens is a creature of culture, not instinct. We get our cues on how to behave by observing others and taking other people’s opinions into account, ALWAYS. It is impossible to behave otherwise.
It wouldn’t have occurred to you to get a tit job if we didn’t have tit jobs to get. You didn’t invent them, someone else did. You didn’t do the surgery, someone else did. You didn’t decide that you couldn’t possibly find clothes that fit without the tit job, someone else did–because you don’t make your own clothes, someone else does. You didn’t decide that women with tit jobs make more money in sex work, someone else did. You didn’t decide you were prettier with plastic bags in your boobs, someone else did.
If those things aren’t true, explain to me why–say for instance–traditional Inuit women don’t get tit jobs.
The disingenuousness here is so thick you could scoop it up and sell it as ice cream. I don’t think you’d like the taste, though.”
Ahem, for time number whatever now, Yes, peoples choices are influenced by society, no choice is made in a vacuum. I’ve said that several times now.
“If you don’t have anything to contribute to a real discussion of feminist issues, may I suggest you look elsewhere for conversation. Because I feel I lose IQ points every time I read any of you. You’re contributing nothing here, and you aren’t doing anything revolutionary. You’re kind of pathetic, actually.”
The feeling is mutual. Tell you want, I will stop commenting on this thread the second people stop addressing me here.
“And quit assuming that just because someone criticizes a decision that you might have made at some point or another, that they’re attacking you. I wouldn’t even know who the fuck you were, Renegade Evolution, if you never went around yelling “LOOK AT MY TITS, I GOT THEM AUGMENTED AND I LOOOOOVE THEM.” Don’t you have anything better to defend or brag about? I’ve got tits too. I got mine augmented the natural way. Big fucking deal. I’d take the smaller ones back in a second–and guys liked them better, too, if that even matters. (It doesn’t. I’m about fed up with men at this point, actually, for very good reasons.)”
See, I’d call that an attack. And at this point, I think y’all are more obsessed with my tits than I am.
“And at this point, I think y’all are more obsessed with my tits than I am. ”
Lame. When one has dug themself into a hole, it’s probably best to not continue digging. Just a suggestion.
I mean, I get the whole point is to fight with feminists for whom you have a clear dislike, but c’mon the horse is dead - stop humping it.
God, Ren, you couldn’t hit water if you fell out of a fucking boat, much less hit the point.
You want silencing? Here’s silencing.
You never comment on feminist blogs until they’re talking about plastic surgery and then and only then you show up to justify your tits yet again. Nothing else. Not politics, not war, not anything. Just tits.
flashheart - you still haven’t answered my question about prostitution in Australia.
From ginmar’s LJ comment thread regarding the discussion going on here:
Quoting Dana:
“Dipshit Bitch is classic. This is what she did:
DB: I know a lesbian woman who got implants.
Gin: Why are lesbians kissing up to the patriarchy?
DB: Iiiiii identify as QUEER, thankyouverymuch. Queer women queer women queer women blah blah blah.
She wasn’t talking about herself originally, she was talking about A LESBIAN FRIEND. Then you questioned why a lesbian would be doing something that, let’s face it, is for MEN, and all of a sudden we weren’t talking about the lesbian friend anymore, we had been talking about DB all the while. Either DB was making up the lesbian friend and she got the tit job, or she’s trying to lead you around by the nose and confuse you and make you look bad. Or both.”
Read again. I was talking about a QUEER friend. The difference matters. Given that Gin herself has been arguing in at least one of her own post at her place (I can’t remember which one - I think it was about the suit against the transexual woman senator whose name I can’t remember right now) that we should respect how people choose to self-identify, I would expect that this shouldn’t be too hard to understand. Insisting that people use the term I or my friend choose to self-identify when referring to me and/or my friend has fuck all to do with trying to confuse or make anyone look bad. You’ll note that *I* made a point of being respectful in my disagreement with anyone here, that *I* didn’t throw names around, and that *I* didn’t attack the persons I disagree with, but only attacked their ideas.
The suggestiong that a queer/lesbian woman, such as my friend, got fake tits — “something that, let’s face it, is for MEN” is ridiculous. I have addressed your apparent misreading of my point about queer women getting fake tits in my comment above in the thread.
Quoting ginmar:
“I guess the boob job didn’t work. So she lied. Big surprise.”
Of course, I disagree with you, so I must be lying. I am happy to send you pics of links to pics of myself showing my all natural small boobies should you need me to prove my street creds.
Quoting crankycrone:
” giggled like a schooldgirl at the new handle: Dipshit Bitch
It’s just a classic MRA tactic - the exception proves the rule. If a lesbian got a tit job, then by gawd, it’s a feminist choice! I really hate *choice* feminism. It’s not even Feminist Lite(TM).”
Yep. Dipshit Bitch. *giggles* So funny. So creative. And such a feminist way of arguing disagreement with another feminist.
And again, the point was NOT to suggest that the exception should disprove the rule. The point was to suggest that ‘they are doing it for the menz’ is a little too simplistic of an analysis. ‘Cause you know, queer women are women too, and they have women bodies too, and at least from what I’ve seen in queer circles and my experience hanging out with queer women, there are enough queer women with fake tits to consider their existence and experience when discussing fake tits.
I would also be interested in seeing anyone quoting me — as in quoting my actual words — where I say that fake tits is a feminist choice.
Quoting ginmar again:
“Yeah, it’s pretty bad when they can’t keep their stories straight.”
Please, show me how i’ve done that. Show me where my ’story’ has been inconsistent.
Gin, unless you are following me around looking in on any and every post I ever comment on, you can’t know what I’ve commented on. Yep, I post on plastic surgery threads. I post on other threads as well. If you cannot prove otherwise, stop saying such.
Betty: I’ll stop humping when everyone else does.
Fuck it. I’ve seen the charming shit over at gin’s blog today. You’re right. No use talking to eachother about anything…oh, and this is not flouncing, this is smirk, file under typical.
Sheena, sorry I didn’t see your question before. At 257 right?
There is sex slavery in Australia. There is sex trafficking, and there are women engaging in sex work to support their drug habit.
Sex slavery is a crime covered by law, sometimes engaged in by brothel owners. BEcause brothels are registered, and regularly visited by police, council inspectors and sex worker representatives, it is difficult for sex slavery or child labour to be carried out for very long, and people who do so receive heavy penalties as well as the loss of their business. You can find many examples of these prosecutions (including of politicians who also own brothels) in the newspapers.
Sex trafficking is also a crime covered by law, due to the activities of sex worker unions, who have been campaigning both to eliminate the practice and to gain foreign sex workers increased rights since the 80s. These sex worker representatives are not fond of the US view of trafficking though: you can read about it at Bay Swan, or the Scarlet Alliance, if you are interested. Sex workers in Australia oppose sex trafficking but support the right of women to come to Australia from Asia to do sex work, since the money in Australia is better and the conditions safer. Since the women coming here are poor, sometimes they need to enter a contract (like any migrant worker). i.e the sex worker unions oppose sex trafficking but support migrant sex work.
Women do sex work to support their drug habit, as do men and children. They usually do street-based sex work, sometimes to support their partners too. Sometimes they have pimps, but usually they have a dodgy boyfriend protecting them. The sex worker union deals with these women too, helps them find drug treatment and other options for their income. But this is not sex slavery - this is slavery. Other women commit crime to support their drug habit.
The majority of sex workers in Australia are non-drug-addicted brothel workers, however, and these women are not abused. They choose to enter the trade, they work for a registered, licensed and regularly checked business, they pay taxes, they get health care, they are able to always use condoms, and they have a union. I don’t choose to make it my business why they do this work, except that they do and in many cases they prefer it to other work. If you are interested in this topic, I recommend reading Lisa Maher, Roberta Perkins, or any of the scholarly work coming from the National Centre for HIV and Social Research, the Sydney Sexual Health Centre, or the Academic Unit of Sexual Health Research. You might be pleasantly surprised.
Yeah, Ren, you get to stand in judgement when your blog is all about bashing radfems. It’s so funny to watch you get all offended at getting a taste of your own medicine.
Oh, yeah, and links, babe. I post here fairly frequently and I read most of the posts. You don’t show up except on other anti-radfem blogs and at sex pox havens. And you whine on and ON about radfems on your blog. Typical. Bitching about shit you do yourself. Oh, wait, that’s right. You’re speshul. You don’t have to do w hat you demand of other people.
Let me repeat that so it sinks in: You don’t get to demand what you don’t do yourself.
Love it that you read my blog. Until you pop up on yet another plastic surgery post, I won’t even remember you.
Ginmar, perhaps you didn’t read my last comment properly, I shall try again.
The US military commander in chief has a policy of torture, including water boarding.
Torture, including rape, is used at Guantanamo Bay.
The US military has a policy of rendition, sending “suspects” to other countries to be tortured and raped. It is known that US representatives are present at these sessions and know what is happening.
The US military has a history of massacres and rape stretching from Sand Creek to now.
The US military has a different targetting policy to other militaries, e.g. the Australian and British military. This policy includes schools and hospitals. The US military has not signed all the international conventions these other militaries have signed -e.g. on chemical weapons, land mines and cluster bombs.
Therefore, it is clear that the US military has a policy of torture, the murder of civilians, and rape. It has specific policy instruments for all these practises.
We all know that not everyone in the military (or even the majority) are cold-blooded savages. You therefore ask us to understand your decision to join the military as a career. We extend you that understanding.
We expect in exchange that you should extend the same understanding to sex workers, women who work willingly in an industry that includes some questionable practices, and occasionally rapes people.
Instead you argue that sex workers are either helpless victims, or are aiding and abetting the practice of rape. Given you judge a woman to be doing the latter if she enjoys or chooses sex work, and also derisively choose to refer to them as “sex poz”, i conclude that you are engaging in a madonna/whore dichotomy.
Please feel free to dispute:
a) the conclusion that you should extend to others the understanding you demand of them
b) the conclusion that you have divided sex workers into madonnas and whores
preferably without threatening me, or accusing me of abusing prostitutes (my personal life being none of your business nor open to your scrutiny, and my knowledge of this issue being entirely professional).
Yeah, Flashheart, I’m still waiting for my fucking apology for all your bullshit. And the term sex worker was and is invalid. I’ll call the sex poxes exactly what I want to. I won’t extend any courtesy to any of you assholes beyond that which you have shown me. You are of course included in that, with your accusations of murder and rape. You get what you give, and right now you’re getting nothing, and I still haven’t been as rude to you as you were to me.
You’re nothing but a john trying to justify using women.
Oh and btw, I really don’t understand where my point about queer women with fake tits is seen as me trying to disprove the rule with the exception.
If you follow my argument correctly, you’ll understand that by highlighting the fact that queer women do also get fake tits, I am agreeing with many of you regarding the pervasive influence of particular standards, expectations, or ideals of our current culture when it comes to female-identified bodies.
And then you would understand that my point is NOT to say that the choice to get fake tits is feminist NOR that it is made in a vacuum, but rather that arguing that this choice is only or predominantly done for the men is too simplistic at best, and wrong at worst.
If you are able to follow these two simple and clear points, then the next step is to at least consider the idea that if queer women can get fake tits for other reason than pleasing the men, then, it is also possible to consider the idea that non-queer women can as well be getting fake tits for other reasons than pleasing the men.
Obviously, none of this suggest that those other reasons are more ‘feminist’ or less problematic in the larger scale. For instance, if a woman get fake tits primarily because she feels that it would increase her success in her field of work, it obviously doesn’t make it less problematic or more feminist. It would still be worthwhile to criticize the fucked up world we live it where a woman feels that fake tits would bring her a bigger paycheck. However, blaming said woman for making a choice with the intention of increasing her paycheck IS problematic and questionable feminist critique.
Again - the point is not to suggest that any or most of the reasons why women get fake tits are feminist or unproblematic. The point is to suggest that blaming them for said choice, and assuming that they haven’t thought about said choice is completely unproductive, both in term of coming up with an understanding of the complexities of the practices and ideas around women’s bodies, and in terms of transforming those ideas/practices.
Now of course, this would require some listening, and a willingness to work a little bit harder than the ‘it’s all about the men’ kind of ‘analysis’ demands.
So, DB, when are you going to make the rounds of the blogs of the people here on this post? Am I the only one thus honored? How very special and unbiased of you.
Well yes ginmar, I have been visiting/commenting on other blogs. As I told you at your place, I visited yours for the first time last night to get a better idea of who you are and what your politics are about. And I spent quite a bit of time reading your stuff. I’m confused as to why you see this as a bad thing - I’m trying to get a better sense of who I’m arguing with, trying to read more of your writting to better understand where you’re coming from, and this is bad because…?
I would have remained silent - like I do most of the time around the blogosphere - had you and your commentators at your place not started pulling crap about me and calling me lovely names such as Dipshit.
You are welcome to go read the few comments I made over at RenEv’s blog.
i’ve also left a few traces back then when burkagate and other threads attacking WOC bloggers and transgender people were going on. But those comments were made under my real name. Since then, various reasons - mostly intimidation and threats of gangrape to ‘take the dyke out of me’ by men who didn’t like what I was saying - prompted me to use a screenname. But you’re smart, you should be able to recognize my style and my ideas if you really want to.
So, don’t feel special or anything. I didn’t do it for you. I did it for my own understanding.
well Ginmar, I hope that you don’t dismiss all women’s experience as glibly as you dismiss sex workers. Perhaps you should read the work of the people I mentioned, to find out whether or not you are reacting too quickly from pre-conceived prejudices.
I’m not entirely sure why I have to apologise to you for pointing out many peoples’ view of the US military. The things I said are hardly accusations, more like facts I should think - do you reject the claim that the US president supports torture? Do you reject the history of US military atrocities? Do you claim the US has signed the convention on chemical weapons?
I am particularly amused that a radical feminist dismisses claims of rape by victims of a closed military prison as “accusations”. Are there any other classes of people from whom claims of rape are mere “accusations”?
I’m interested by your use of the phrase “sex pox” as well. An interesting change, that z to the x. Are all women who enjoy and appreciate sex a “pox”, or just thsoe who do so in a way different to you? You aren’t exactly dissociating yourself from my original claim that you dichotomize sex workers as madonna/whores. Perhaps that could extend to include other women?
I think arguing with you is a bit of a waste of time, but just in case you are actually interested in making a point through the insults, could you try and refute the 2 points I made? I am very interested to hear particularly about how women who work for a military institution deserve the benefit of the doubt, but women who work for themselves as sex workers don’t. And again, if you could do it without accusing me of lifestyle things which you know nothing about, that would be nice…
You’re ignoring my point. It’s not just recent posts, it’s who you decide to critique. You left RE and BD and FH out of your judicious consideration. Bullshit, plain and simple. Beyond that, I don’t know you from Adam.
flashheart - you still haven’t answered my question about prostitution in Australia.
Why I am suddenly made responsible for what RE, BD, and FH (who I have absolutely no idea who s/he is) are writting here or on their or other’s blogs?
DB: Consider it this way, if you only criticize those people with whom you disagree without similarly criticizing those who are being just as ill-behaved but with whom you agree, then it becomes apparent that it is not the method with which you have a problem.
Though you have generally maintained a respectful tone throughout, I do think you are being a touch dishonest on this point, especially since you have gone to RE’s blog to find sympathy for your viewpoint. If not actively condoning their behavior on this blog, you are tacitly approving their methods (even before Ginmar’s entry to the conversation, their conduct on this board was incredibly hostile and unproductive).
Is it possible that we can let this vendetta between Ginmar, RE, BD, et al. move along now?
history_mom: why of course if I’m feeling aggravated by the lack of productive discussion going on here, I will go to the blogs of people who as far as the topic of this discussion is concerned (ie fake tits) more or less share the same views as I do. That’s called regrouping, safe space, debriefing, venting, etc.
And while I have used a less ‘polite’ or patient tone over at RenEv’s place, you’ll note if you read my comments there that I haven’t once been disrespectful or called names at anyone who happen to disagree with me, nor did I cheer up anyone who did.
And as I said over at ginmar’s place, yes, I am biased. Yes, I have more sympathy for RenEv than for feminists who call her a whore, sell-out, tit jobber, men’s fantasies facilitator, or other sexist crap like that. It’s all about this power thing you see. Sex workers are constantly shat on by both Teh Patriarchy and those who claim to want to ’save’ them. So when a sex worker such as RenEv loose her cool and fight back, even if she does it in a nasty way, I still have more sympathy for her than for those who have been attacking, silencing, and dismissing her and her experience. And no, I’m not going to tell her to shut up, unless she starts being abusive. Which to my knowledge, RenEv hasn’t.
I guess we’re all familiar here with the significant difference between a man calling a woman a useless whore for instance and a woman fighting back by calling him a sexist fucking piece of shit of an asshole. Or that same woman telling him that she wish he’ll die chocking on his own shit. That power thing again. I’ll call the man on his crap. But no, I won’t tell that woman that she should make nice.
So yes, i’m biased. Generally in favor of those who are not in a position to call the tune and who get screwed by the system. And when it comes to sex work or feminism (within feminist circles), radfem are NOT the one who get screwed up.
Finally, for what it’s worth, RenEv and BD would have every reasons to call me a bad friend. Because except for agreeing with most of their arguments and once or twice calling someone up on the way they were addressing RenEv and BD, I haven’t spent much time defending them. So if there’s a trace of guilt in my conscience, it goes toward not being supportive enough of them rather than not defending someone who right from the beginning of her engagement with me has shown nothing but aggressiveness toward me.
DB:
“Yes, I have more sympathy for RenEv than for feminists who call her a whore, sell-out, tit jobber, men’s fantasies facilitator, or other sexist crap like that. It’s all about this power thing you see.”
Please point our exactly where feminists called RenEv a “whore”. And I don’t understand how it is sexist to call her a “men’s fantasies facilitator”.
If you can’t understand on your own what is sexist in calling a sex worker a ‘men’s fantasies facilitator’, I don’t see the point in me trying to explain it to you. Tell me, would you call your postergirl of women’s universal oppression - you know, the poor brown third world helpless prostituted woman that you so care about - a ‘men’s fantasies facilitator’? And if you would, would it be to criticize and shame her?
Oh but I know - RenEv doesn’t want to be your postergirl of the Poor Helpless Prostituted Oppressed Woman, she doesn’t want you to call her a victim of Teh Evil Patriarchy and she actually *chose* to do sex work. So that makes it all right then to call her a ‘men’s fantasies facilitator’. She had it coming I guess. Like all those sluts walking around wearing short skirt and all. They’re asking for it.
Oh FFS. “men’s fantasies facilitator” sounds like the kind of term a stripper (for example) in a comfortable situation would apply to *herself*, as a joke or to make it sound more corporate: like calling a housekeeper “domestic engineering facilitator”.
Right. The day I’ll read one radfem use that term to address a Third World Helpless Prostituted Women™ is the day I’ll give some credit to that response.
Sheena, I think I answered your question at 286. Was there another question you asked that I missed? This thread is getting kind of involved…
I see DB is still tenderly cooing over her friends’ fee fees while ignoring her double standards and the long history here. How charming.
And typical.
FH, you called me a murder and a rapist. You’re too much of a cowardly shit to own up and just masturbate with words. How typical. What a great john you are. Go fuck yourself and spare some poor desperate woman the obligation.
You know what, all this other shit aside….
FH, you did pretty much call Gin a murderer and a rapist, which is bullshit. I may not like the woman, but she served in the US Military and I have respect for her service to our country. She did not choose to go to war, the government chose for her, and she did her job. Everything else aside, giving her shit for that is plain out wrong, and implying in any way that she is a rapist and a murderer is wrong. I don’t have to like her or agree with anything she says to see that.
I’ll be damned. You deserve a thank you for that, Ren and I offer it without qualification. Thank you. I respect you for that.
ginmar:
*I* have not called anyone names. *I* have not waged any personal attack at anyone. *I* have kept my conversation focused on the arguments being presented, not on who was arguing them. I have not once suggested that someone was ‘flawed’ because of my disagreement with their opinion or arguments. And aside from some sarcasm here and there, *my* tone has been mostly quite respectful.
The worse unproductive and unnecessary thing I’ve said to you was a crack about taking away your feminist card - which as I said before, we both know don’t exist. I have to point out though that I was wrong - I wrote somewhere (i think over at your place) that i did so *after* you called me bitch and was patronizing to me. That’s not the case. I just double-checked that monster thread, and I made the crack *before* you made the patronizing and dismissive comments about my politics and feminism.
With that in mind, *your* first engagement with me was patronizing, referring to me as a kid (you later got pissed off at someone being patronizing toward you and calling you a girl - talk about double standards), and without knowing shit about me or my politics, dismissed me as grrr power raw raw raw. *You* called me bitch. *You* engaged me with constructive comments such as ‘what the fuck is wrong with you’ (what prompted said comment is still unclear to me). *You* have let people on *your* blog call me Dipshit Bitch. *You* have dismissed my desire to be referred to as queer rather than lesbian (and to refer to the friend I mentioned as queer rather than lesbian) as ’semantic’. *You* have suggested I’ve lied about myself or my friend - for reasons I’m still unclear about. *Your* tone with me was aggressive and dismissive from the start till the end. And *you* now have a post over at your place devoted exclusively to me - where *you* have the power to decide whether I can respond to it or not. *I* don’t have such a space of my own to respond to you (of course, I could start my own blog, but really, it’s not worth it).
So, with all that in mind: no, you won’t hear me going to RenEv to tell her to play nice. Even if/when she gets a little nasty. No, I won’t waste my time going all over the blogosphere to see what other people have written about you and calling them on their shit if they’re being abusive. If you were a friend, I may be inclined to do so. If you had showed me a iota of respect, I may be inclined to do so. If you were being silenced and generally in a unequal power relation vis-a-vis those attacking you, I may be inclined to do so. And while I respect RenEv for calling this FH on his shit regarding what he said about you and agree that it was the right thing for her to do so if he did indeed say those things, I had not bothered reading his comments. And in spite of your repeated demands that I address him, for all the reasons mentioned above, I felt no inclination to spend my time on reading the stuff he wrote for the only purpose of defending you.
Yep, I’m biased. Especially against people who have given me fuck all reasons to trust them and to trust that they’ll have my back in return.
Fuck me. Inspired by RenEv’s better nature than mine on this one, I went back on the thread trying to find that post where FH suggested that ginmar was killing muslims and raping women. And sure enough, it did imply that - if only by association. And while I think I can see the point he was trying to make there (although I’m also ready to assume I’m giving him too much credit), I still believe that it was wrong, uncalled for, offensive, and completely unproductive. And even if his intention was not to make those implications about ginmar, we all know that intentions don’t matter much when the result is wrong.
Gin: You’re welcome. I don’t deal with disrespect of the troops very well at all.
Like I said, sisterhood, while occasionally invisible, is no illusion.
is implying something - “if only by association”. So I stepped in to point out that there is a guilt by association with being a US soldier. Everyone clearly thinks this guilt doesn’t apply, and I think the same should apply to this “class of women who deny that it’s that bad for other women”. You can’t so easily pick and choose your categories of bad people, especially when you are in such a category.
And, I am quite happy to defend the point that the US military carries with it a certain amount of guilt by association. If you want others to extend understanding to that situation - and even Ginmar’s antagonists in this debate do - then you should extend it to others too. If ginmar thinks that women who work in an industry that is sometimes bad are bad by association, why can’t we think that about her? A woman somewhere in the US military donated her underwear to the cause of torturing muslims - we have the photographic evidence. If ginmar is not tainted by that, then why should we assume that RenegadeEvolution is tainted by the bad practises of some parts of the sex industry?
Also, if ginmar can take issue with someone’s work through cheap stereotypes, why can’t I take issue with hers the same way? What’s good for the goose…
Particularly, my most unreasonable comment was this:
in which I accuse ginmar of “insinuating” that she has killed people, I do not accuse her of murdering anyone. I then went on to smear her by association with the crimes of the institution of which (I read) she is a member. Which was exactly my point, because when you are in an institution you are associated with that institution, and if you want understanding extended to you for accidentally being in the wrong institution at the wrong time, you should extend the same understanding to others.
Probably “insinuating” is a bit harsh - I should have said “claims she has seen people killed”. But there you go, a brief rush of blood to the head after having my initial argument rejected as
which would also be a kind of smear by association, would it not?
Non non apology there, flashheart. I notice you left out the rape charge and the Muslim-murdereing charge. Keep digging!
DB, my problem with you has always been that you have one standard for the people you agree with and another for those you don’t. You’ve only just now examined FH’s attack on me. How many times did I have to ask you to do that?
flashheart - December 3, 2007 at 7:15 pm
So is there no sex slavery in Australia then, no human trafficking? No women engaging in sex work to support their drug addiction?
ginmar:
why yes i have different standard for different people. i usually give much more credit to people who aren’t in a position to call the tune, and to people who’ve historically been screwed up by the system. i also give more credit to people i trust, and people i can have faith that they will have my back. i give more credit to my friends. tell me you don’t? come on, i’m the perfect exemple of someone you give absolutely no credit to because right from the start, you’ve associated me with RenEv and BD.
and why? because i came here to suggest that the “it’s all about the menz and you’re capitulating to the patriarchy” kind of analysis was problematic, too simplistic, but mostly, unproductive. not because i think that fake tits/heels/tummy tuck/makeup and all that stuff is ‘feminist’ or a ‘feminist choice’. not because i don’t think that women make those choice in a vacuum. not because i think that every single woman who make those choice are actually being self-reflective about those choices. i’m even ready to suggest that a very large amount of women who go along with our current culture ridiculous standards of beauty are doing just that: going along.
and yep, sure enough, everytime i have my students read a (radfem) feminist critique of beauty standards for women, i usually face more resistance from women students than from the men students in my class. what’s my strategy? well, I usually point out to them that look, i’m wearing heels myself. I’m performing ‘feminine’ myself. And then, I explain to them that I usually do so because, even though I know it’s fucked up, it makes me feel more confident to teach in heels. And we talk about the politics behind that. I also ask them to reflect on their reaction to the (feminist) material I teach in relation to how I present myself. Ask them to think about why a few of them told me at the begining of the term that “you don’t look like a feminist”. I reflect with them about the implications of that. I usually use it as a way to talk about straight privilege, and how by performing femme, I often ‘pass’ as straight, which grants me some privilege, but also negate my identity,
both within straight and queer circles.
My point? I don’t want to shame my students for the choices they make. I don’t want them to see feminism as policing their life. I want them to see feminism as a framework to help them reflect about their life, and a starting point to think about and create something different. Because the best thing feminism has ever done to me is giving me a framework to understand my life and the world around me. I often say that feminism has done for me what therapy couldn’t. This to me is the power of ‘the personal is political’. By politicizing my personal, feminism has helped me take the blame away from my individual self. And as importantly, it has given my personal a source of political power.
That’s what I want to give to my students. Not a policing, shaming, and culpabilizing feminism. But a productive, powerful and transformative feminism.
That’s why I came here to suggest that maybe, the approach taken here was unproductive. That rather than mocking women with fake tits and culpabilizing them for ‘giving into Teh Patriarchy’, we could think of a different, more productive strategy to achieve the goal we all share.
And not once did you engage my arguments or critiques honestly and in good faith. Because right from the begining, you’ve associated me with what you see as anti-feminism, or anti-radfem, or what you dismiss as ’sex-poz’. So yes, I am biased. No, I don’t give the same credit to everyone. But so do you. And while I have not once been dismissive of you as a person, you have still not said anything about people on your blog calling me dipshit, accusing me of being a liar, or stood up for my right to be referred to with the term I choose to self-identify with. I have not once waged a personal attack on you or any of your friends/allies. There’s been plenty of personal attacks on me on your own blog. So again, you’ll excuse me if I’m not inclined to give you as much credit as I do others.
FH:
While I can see the point you were trying to make — ie, we shouldn’t assume guilt by association — I think that the strategy you’re using to make that point is not exactly productive. In addition to some of your statements being indeed quite offensive to both ginmar and countless other soldiers.
Why do I think so? Because sex work and the sex trade is a complex enough issue, with enough complexities, tensions, contradictions, and messiness on its own that bringing in the military as an analogy only ads another layer of complexities, tensions, contradictions, and messiness to it and serves more to blur things than to make it clearer. To say nothing of the emotional bagage that both issues carry with them.
There is certainly a discussion to be had about how the military and the sex industry are interwined — we only have to think about the rise in local prostitution we witness everytime and everywhere a military contingent is deployed and/or stationed somewhere, be it for a war or for ‘peacekeeping’. But that’s a different discussion, with a different purpose.
If you want to make the point that women who work in the sex industry deserve to be given credit and not be blamed for the work they do, whether they choose to do it or are forced to do it, I think there’s better and more productive way to make that point.
Sheena, I answered that question at comment 286, I have to go the dentist now but will repost later.
DB: I was not trying to say anything about the interrelations between prostitution and the military, merely contrasting ginmar’s explanation of why women work in each industry (the former: they’re forced to or they’re sluts; the latter: it’s a good job).
But you’re right, it’s probably counter-productive to introduce such a (strangely) flashpoint topic, since American liberals all have to prove so hard they’re pro-troop, while dancing around the fact that the US military condones and engages in torture.
Ginmar: I didn’t leave out the bit where I “accused” you of rape and torture - it’s right there in my quote. Only I didn’t accuse you of anything, I used two rhetorical questions to contrast your view of the military with its bad point, with your view of sex work. And I wasn’t trying for an apology, you won’t be getting an apology for insinuating that I’m a rapist, misreading my rhtetorical point, and then telling me to “shove it” up my “ass” (even though I don’t own a donkey)
FH:
“But you’re right, it’s probably counter-productive to introduce such a (strangely) flashpoint topic, since American liberals all have to prove so hard they’re pro-troop, while dancing around the fact that the US military condones and engages in torture.”
Maybe there’s something about that. But I’m not American, and certainly not a liberal, and I feel absolutely no need to prove that I’m pro-troop, whatever troops we’re talking about. And I’m not ‘pro-troop’, at least not in the way in has been spinned in the States, and is now being spinned here in Canada.
My point was that while the military and the current imperialist war that is going on certainly deserve to be criticized, the discussion here was tense enough that bringing up the military had nothing productive to add to it. As I’ve tried countless time here to point out, keeping in mind the purpose of bringing a particular argument and taking into account how it will/could be received matters. There are many ways to make a point and bring a reflection - I think that the one you chose was inneffective, counter-productive, and at times offensive.
Your friends are loathsome, BD, so that’s your problem. I stuck up for Ann Coulter recently because no woman should be harassed and stalked. Meanwhile, you don’t give a shit what your friends hae done and how that informs my interations with them. You’re not even trying but you want credit for trying and a cookie, too.
Don’t bother coming back to my blog. It’s like talking to a fuckin’ wall.
“You’re not even trying but you want credit for trying and a cookie, too.”
I don’t eat cookies. But I’ll settle for a set of fake tits. I’m trying to get RevEv to hook me up with a discount. I’m happy to send you pics as soon as I get them - that way, you’ll have some nice images to ad next time you want to bitch at me on you blog.
Your friends are loathsome, BD, so that’s your problem. I stuck up for Ann Coulter recently because no woman should be harassed and stalked.
Tch, tch, tch - and now you think you deserve a cookie for it too…
[/ginmar]
DB, offensive, counter-productive, ineffective… also true. The US military condones and engages in torture and rape, and ginmar is a member of that esteemed institution. Not only that, but she wears it like a badge of pride and demands we all understand it was a career choice, driven by her class background. She does not extend the same understanding to people willingly working in a field she disapproves of - sex work - and is quick to accuse them of aiding and abetting the things she disapproves of.
If this hypocrisy is difficult for ginmar to contemplate, that’s her problem. The argument remains valid regardless, and I was well aware of its offensiveness when I wrote it. Precisely because ginmar’s position is offensive, and pointing out same seeme the best thing to do, given she had just accused me of being a rape apologist.
FH, don’t think that I’m trying to defend or excuse ginmar, especially not her position on sex work or the way she has been treating people who disagree with her. I’m also not going to defend the military. I do however think that making statements which can be interpreted as blaming individual soldiers - especially when we consider which social groups are being targetted by recruiters and which social groups often face no better opportunity than the military to make a living and support their family - is not only wrong and offensive for said soldiers, but also counter-productive both as a critique of the military AND as a critique of ginmar’s position on sex work.
And if you don’t think that ginmar deserves to be given some credit or being played nice with, consider that your statements could be offensive to other soldiers who have nothing to do with this discussion. Dragging them in it to make your point is everything but fair.
“Your friends are loathsome, BD, so that’s your problem.”
For public record, and before going back to my previous policy of not commenting on blogs, I offer you this. From ginmar LJ’s place, talking about me:
“captainvanille: God DAMN are you a slimy, smarmy, manipulative little shit. You come in here all flowers and puppies, completely ignoring the fact that you are, behind your fuck-me red lips and pert tits, the epitome of what they mean by the word “viper” - not a snake, oh no, but a poisonous, smirking, betraying, Patriarchal collaborator.
Go rot, and take your two-faced friends with you.
ginmar: Now, now. You don’t know what color her lips are. And she’ll probably take you to task for it with all the vigor she’s got saved up from ignoring all those nice polite polite she agrees with.
captainvanille:Okay, you’re right. I hereby take back my comment about “fuck-me red lips” and replace it with “lips artfully posed in a permanent fuck-me pout”. Because that’s something that’s very nearly guaranteed with the sex poxes.
Isn’t it just so cute when they make-pretend that their buddies can do no wrong?”
Sweety (and yes, this is me deliberatly using a patronizing term of ‘endearment - because well, my patience has its own limit to - see how i own my stuff?), my lips arfully posed in a permanent fuck-me pout and my pert tits, I reserve them for cute chicks. Not for Teh Patriarchy/Teh Menz. Whether it’s projection or simply straight bias, because you fuck boys doesn’t mean I do. At least, get your shit straight when trying to insult me.
And before I go back to Collaborating with Teh Patriarchy, can I just point out again how charming it is for the True Freedom Fighter Against Teh Patriarchal Evil to use such sexist loaded imagery as ‘viper’ to describe a woman?
i’m impressed that your head hasn’t exploded yet from all your cognitive dissonance.
DB, your first paragraph is exactly the point I was trying to make - I do extend all that sympathy and consideration to soldiers generally and (more to the point!) so does everyone else in this conversation. Ginmar, as you have made very clear with your extract from her lj, does not extend equivalent consideration to other people in other industries. My point, made with rhetorical questions, consisted of no more and no less than that. The only individual soldier I blamed is ginmar, the person at whom the comment was directed.
(Though I should point out that, as a member of the international community who supports the position of his own govt on this issue, “I was just following orders” and “it’s just a job” aren’t excuses for war crimes, which the US military routinely commits, particularly in regards to its targetting policies in civilian areas. It is the responsibility of individual soldiers to justify how they avoid committing war crimes).
Moving on to your second paragraph…
Unfortunately to make that point I had to drag other soldiers’ good reputation through the mud. But it’s their institution which is destroying their reputation, not my repetition of the crimes of that institution. They aren’t off-limits from criticism in any circumstance, including where the instituion whose bad name is dragging them down is useful to make a rhetorical point.
By way of example, you wouldn’t let a commenter here off the hook if she was a syphilis researcher from the second wave of feminism, complaining about the ethics of sex work researchers today while justifying her own community’s natural history experiments on black women in the 50s. ginmar doesn’t get a special pass because she is a soldier, and other soldiers don’t get a free pass either.
FH: I agree with most of what you’ve said there. Small disagreements here and there, or qualifications to add maybe. At other times, I would want to engage you in that discussion. But my own personal life and this recent useless discussion on fake tits has left me with no desire, time, or energy to devote to such a discussion.
Another time maybe.
Back to collaborating with Teh Patriarchy.
well… (turns on sarcasm button) …. I can’t possibly see how you could be worn out… (turns it off again). Get collaboratin’!
Sheena, below is my post from 286, which is lost somewhere way above, in answer to your question:
#
There is sex slavery in Australia. There is sex trafficking, and there are women engaging in sex work to support their drug habit.
Sex slavery is a crime covered by law, sometimes engaged in by brothel owners. BEcause brothels are registered, and regularly visited by police, council inspectors and sex worker representatives, it is difficult for sex slavery or child labour to be carried out for very long, and people who do so receive heavy penalties as well as the loss of their business. You can find many examples of these prosecutions (including of politicians who also own brothels) in the newspapers.
Sex trafficking is also a crime covered by law, due to the activities of sex worker unions, who have been campaigning both to eliminate the practice and to gain foreign sex workers increased rights since the 80s. These sex worker representatives are not fond of the US view of trafficking though: you can read about it at Bay Swan, or the Scarlet Alliance, if you are interested. Sex workers in Australia oppose sex trafficking but support the right of women to come to Australia from Asia to do sex work, since the money in Australia is better and the conditions safer. Since the women coming here are poor, sometimes they need to enter a contract (like any migrant worker). i.e the sex worker unions oppose sex trafficking but support migrant sex work.
Women do sex work to support their drug habit, as do men and children. They usually do street-based sex work, sometimes to support their partners too. Sometimes they have pimps, but usually they have a dodgy boyfriend protecting them. The sex worker union deals with these women too, helps them find drug treatment and other options for their income. But this is not sex slavery - this is slavery. Other women commit crime to support their drug habit.
The majority of sex workers in Australia are non-drug-addicted brothel workers, however, and these women are not abused. They choose to enter the trade, they work for a registered, licensed and regularly checked business, they pay taxes, they get health care, they are able to always use condoms, and they have a union. I don’t choose to make it my business why they do this work, except that they do and in many cases they prefer it to other work. If you are interested in this topic, I recommend reading Lisa Maher, Roberta Perkins, or any of the scholarly work coming from the National Centre for HIV and Social Research, the Sydney Sexual Health Centre, or the Academic Unit of Sexual Health Research. You might be pleasantly surprised.
“But my own personal life and this recent useless discussion on fake tits has left me with no desire, time, or energy to devote to such a discussion.”
And yet you’re still talking about it.