Someone from Details sent along this article making fun of fake breasts to Lauren, and she sent it to me. I’d be lying if I said it didn’t make me smile; it’s both funny (especially the joke about how you can hear the sea in them) and a nice reminder that fake tits can actually be a huge turn-off to straight men who value women’s independence or confidence. Fake tits symbolize two general themes that directly conflict with that—low self-esteem and dependence on men. That’s why I can’t really begrudge anyone who gets them, in my heart of hearts. I don’t doubt that women who perceive that their value in society rests with the judgments of men and get implants to improve that value are actually rational actors. One of the women mentioned in the article, Victoria Beckham, would, for instance, have completely faded from the glow of fame if she hadn’t married a famous athlete. Her value in society is almost solely dependent on her famous marriage. To a lesser extent, that sort of calculus works for a lot of women who get breast implants.
As for the self-esteem thing, well, I don’t buy that getting the universally recognized symbols of desperation implanted into your body is good for the long-term self-esteem, but what do I know? I did grow up with the benefit of the indie/punk subculture, where being kind of flat is something of a badge of pride. I haven’t walked in the shoes of someone who moves in circles where being flat is so damn shameful.
By the way, Details magazine is so confused sometimes. Sometimes they like to hearken back to their pro-queer, pro-woman past and sometimes they publish stuff that celebrates sexual assault.
I’m entirely unsure why on earth they singled out Lauren to send this to. Maybe did a search on “feminist blogs” and pulled up her email? I feel weird about this. On one hand, my usual knee-jerk fuck you attitude is kicking in. On the other hand, it would be kind of funny if positive response from the blogs made them more and more willing to slaughter a few sacred cows, like the big cultural myth that women get breast implants for themselves instead of to broadcast a certain message to men.
Now, that’s not very fair. There’s her work with the Spice Gi…..
OK, maybe it is fair.
Charming.
I tend to read this as just one more way to denegrate women by a large segment of misognistic men. they value women by their attributes, so when women start getting fake tits, after the inital amusement wears off, they turn on them. after all, it’s easy to point to women as using these breasts as another way to ‘be fake’ towards men; to prostitute themselves to the highest ‘bidder’; to lie to men.
on the other hand, i feel this fake breast & plastic surgery pressure on women , & from a ridiculously young age, has got to stop, & if this hastens it, great. there are legit reasons for breast reconstruction. getting attention isnt one of them.
Don’t forget that some of us had reconstruction after breast cancer. Yes, I understand that in a non-patriarchal, less boob-obsessed culture women wouldn’t feel pressured to have reconstruction done after mastectomies but we don’t live in that culture so tread softly on this subject.
Personally, I didn’t want to live with the daily decision to whether to go boob-less or to conform to the patriarchy’s expectations so I just replaced what I lost. I just don’t always have it in me to put up with the stares of being boob-less and I don’t always want to be known as Cancer Girl. Sometimes I just want to blend.
Frankly, though, implants scared the hell out of me and I opted to use all my own tissue. Just don’t trust ‘em.
I did grow up with the benefit of the indie/punk subculture, where being kind of flat is something of a badge of pride
As someone who was born with (well, not literally, but you get my drift) 36 DD’s on a very petite frame, I am so fucking tired of that sort of thing. Physical traits should never be a badge of pride. I don’t think you’re endorsing that view, necessarily, but I’m just saying it’s not wholly beneficial. Any time one physical trait is assumed to convey superior personal traits, it hurts the people who don’t have it.
Also, I actually disagree with:
the big cultural myth that women get breast implants for themselves instead of to broadcast a certain message to men..
That’s certainly how they’re sold to women, but I’ve never met anyone who asserts that with a straight face unless they’re having it done themselves. Everyone I’ve ever known to talk about implants (from Texas to Massachusetts, from poor public high school to rich liberal suburb) takes for granted that people who say that are A) lying to themselves or B) trying to sell something. That’s why, as you point out, they’re a universal sign of desperation. Thus, I don’t think it’s really a dominant belief in our culture that women ACTUALLY do it “just” for themselves.
And BadKitty, I wasn’t thinking when I wrote - I do think that reconstruction is a different issue. Related, but different. I apologize for not considering that facet.
Trouble is, many men cannot tell the difference.
Moreover, many convert that negative “turn-off” energy into misogyny. As in, let’s make fun of women who get implants. It’s the usual slut shaming based on appearance, but it’s socially accepted. Example:
The article isn’t funny at all.
i meant, it’s easy for those kinds of men to say that stuff. theyre the same kinds of males that always declare that they want a woman who never wears make-up, “cause it’s so fake!”. they actually expect women to look like shania twain does in a video. they dont actually know that she has a trowel full of makeup on in it, under the lights & shadows, to achieve that ‘natural look’. you know. the kind that want ageless 17yr old pussymachines ;p
“The Beauty Myth” came out during my formative feminist years, so I am probably the wrong person to opine about this, but I tend to think that ALL non-reconstructive, gender reassignment, or medically necessary cosmetic surgery on women is questionable from a feminist standpoint.
As the Kanye West thing proved, this stuff really is quite dangerous, and, though I agree it MIGHT be rational for a small subset of the population (celebrities, strippers, etc.), it is very bad for women as a whole. In addition to endangering women, it contributes to the unrealistic beauty standards of our society, contributes to the idea that womanhood should be all about whatever is most pleasing to men, and causes HUGE self-esteem issues in many women.
I don’t know: I have a good friend who had an oscillating weight issue for a number of years, and while she’s got that under control now, it apparently did a number on her breasts, so she went out and got the firmer and bigger breasts she’d always wanted. She was pretty clear that she was doing it for her and not for her husband — though her husband does seem to appreciate them, FWIW.
I personally on those incredibly rare occasions when I check out pr0n find fake breasts to be an instant turnoff. They just don’t look “right,” for lack of a better term. But I guess if a woman wants to do it, it’s up to her: not my business.
I thought the article mostly held up individual women for mockery. It’s easy to make fun of Heidi for caring what other people thought. No, you shouldn’t care. But the writer doesn’t have to live with his primary worth as a human being being defined in terms of his hotness.
And I’d like to second Betsy on the “badge of pride” comment. I spent most of my teen years slumped over hoping people wouldn’t notice my chest. It didn’t work.
Don’t forget that some of us had reconstruction after breast cancer. Yes, I understand that in a non-patriarchal, less boob-obsessed culture women wouldn’t feel pressured to have reconstruction done after mastectomies but we don’t live in that culture so tread softly on this subject.
If you’d had, say, your ear removed because of cancer, no one would think it was bizarre for you to want to have something that at least vaguely resembled what had been there. But breasts have been so sexualized that some people have gone too far the other way and declared that replacing a missing body part is bowing to the patriarchy.
(Not that anyone should be forced to have reconstructive surgery if they don’t want it. Just pointing out that wanting to go back to the way you used to look before the surgery is a very human and understandable desire.)
Geez, that’s the double-blind back-loop of misogyny right there. See, he’s not saying that he thinks that women with big tits are stupid. He’s saying that women think that women with big tits are stupid, and who is he to argue since women must know other women better than he does?
Not everyone getting breast implant is going for the ginormous - and saline does look much more natural than silicone. It’s no wonder lots of people can’t tell the difference.
For the record, for about 14 years I had a DD cup on one side and a AA cup on the other. I got tired of the stupid looks and jackass reactions to the lopsideness - I got a breast implant on one side and a reduction on the other to even me out to a C.
On an interesting sidenote being Canadian, I got it for free. Not because all breast implants are covered - they’re not - but because the medical establishment felt that this was justifiable cosmetic surgery, on par with facial reconstruction. YMMV
Not everyone getting breast implant is going for the ginormous - and saline does look much more natural than silicone. It’s no wonder lots of people can’t tell the difference.
For the record, for about 14 years I had a DD cup on one side and a AA cup on the other. I got tired of the stupid looks and jackass reactions to the lopsideness - I got a breast implant on one side and a reduction on the other to even me out to a C.
On an interesting sidenote being Canadian, I got it for free. Not because all breast implants are covered - they’re not - but because the medical establishment felt that this was justifiable cosmetic surgery, on par with facial reconstruction. YMMV
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Argh! I have so much trouble reading the anti-spam numbers.
I tend to read this as just one more way to denegrate women by a large segment of misognistic men.
Me too. Pressure women into getting implants by making small-breasted women feel inferiour, and then mock them for giving into the pressure. Gross.
Delurking because while I usually enjoy your posts very much I have a slight issue with one line here:
“…the universally recognized symbols of desperation implanted into your body…”
I realize that you mean breast implants are said “symbols of desperation,” but due partially to phrasing and partially to the nature of the discussion, that could be read as meaning that larger breasts in and of themselves are symbols of desperation.
The problem I have with that is complex: first, there are already widely known ideas about what it “means” if a woman has large breasts–she’s a nymphomaniac, a slut, immodest, probably a homewrecker, etc. Even though it’s unintentional, it’s jarring to hear that idea repeated here.
The second problem is that breast implants themselves are not universally recognized. Between the growing skill of cosmetic surgeons, the varieties of implants, the kinds of clothes worn (undergarments included), the incredible variety of the bodies and breasts of women with or without implants, and the increasing Photoshopization of the images we consume via MSM, a surgically modified breast and a natural one cannot always be told apart by sight alone.
In light of this, it seems that without confirmation of surgery, “breasts that look surgically altered” are the “universal symbols of desperation,” as well as “breasts that look like the end goal of surgical alteration.”
Possibly, this could be because of your wording. Mentally substituting “breast implants” in that phrase creates a redundancy (”[implants] implanted into your body…”) so perhaps I tried to make sense of it by reading just plain [breasts] or [larger breasts], which I then parsed as being “the universal symbol of desperation” and then came the dissonance…either way, my two cents, and I am sorry to bother you.
Sometimes I wonder about where the line between body mods for oneself (piercings, tattoos, whatever) and body mods for others (breast augmentation) lies. I mean, the theory of getting a boob job for the same reasons that one gets a tattoo isn’t irreparably flawed, it’s just that the context of our sexist society makes them very different.
Mnemosyne makes a good point in 12 related to this. I don’t think vanity is a sin, in moderation. I think it’s hard to have a ‘moderate’ breast augmentation, simply because our medical technology doesn’t allow it. But if we had the ability to have moderate boob jobs, and we had the social circumstance that allowed women to make honest and personal choices about their breast-related vanity, women could choose breasts the way they choose hairstyles.
We, of course, don’t live in that world.
Wow Amanda…aren’t you charming?
Pretty amazing how you have the hardline lowdown on the esteem levels and worldly worth of women with implants like that! How hip and indie punk cool of you! I mean, it takes a set of brass ovaries for a feminist to rip on women’s appearances, possible motivations, position in society and feelings like that!
Funny, a lot of people would suggest that moreso than implants a woman who does this sort of thing and tears down other women in order to show how much more superior, intelligent, hip and cool she is might be the one suffering from esteem issues and a sense of desperation. Because wow, aren’t you just so much better and confident than those girls with the tits full of saline?
Hell, I have implants, yet I’ve never felt the need to crack on women without them or assume to know their motivations or levels of self esteem or apparent worth in the world, funny that a woman without them feels the need to do exactly that.
Interesting indeed.
I can definitely see wanting reconstruction after a mastectomy, or evening out very lopsided proportions (if one breast is far bigger than the other, that can cause back and balance problems), or getting very large breasts reduced (again, back problems). And I’m also thankful that when I had breast cancer and surgery, I was able to have a lumpectomy. I’m rather attached to my body parts and would like to keep ‘em!
I’m also grateful to have spent my youth in various indie/punk/goth/artsy subcultures where “conventional attractiveness” was not an issue. Especially in San Francisco, there was a lid for every pot. Someone wanting plastic surgery “to be sexier” would have been met with puzzled stares or outright laughter.
I would not want the kind of man I’d have to have plastic surgery in order to attract. This means I lose out on being an idle rich trophy wife, I guess. Boo hoo. Too bad, so sad.
I agree with Pussy and Roses. I see this as just another example of men requiring women to look a certain way and then mocking them for the tools they use to achieve that look.
Men want their women to be stunningly gorgeous, but if she spends time in front of the mirror or drops money at Sephora she’s “vain” or “high maintenance.”
They worship big tits and then turn around and ridicule those women who get theirs artificially.
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Unless you’re naturally perfect-looking, of course.
I’m filing this under men trying to hide behind ostensible feminism to shame women, and other women hiding behind ostensible feminism to enable them to do it.
Whatever. For those with fingers not reflexively placed on the “shame” button, there are clearly other options besides “doing it for the menz” and “doing it to bolster flagging self esteem.” How ’bout cause you want to do it? Why is it anyone’s business whether it’s too drastic a step to take for a look you want?
For the record, like wondering, I too had a substantial size discrepancy, although not as substantial as hers. The time and energy spent on trying to sew pads in one cup to allow bras to fit was much more, cumulatively, than the 2 days it took to be back in the gym after the surgery.
If it’s impossible to take any step appearance-wise without being insecure or doing it for the men, then the slippery slope includes manicures, makeup, frequent hair styling, etc. Or high heels. Or suntanning. Can we prove there’s more health risk with implants than the other things? I don’t think so. I know more sun gods and goddesses with melanoma than with implant malfunctions.
I agree with Elaine: the article’s not funny. And to the extent this post is geared to fall under the rubric of feminism, it doesn’t. It just gives the misogynists at Details exactly what they don’t need: a cheerleader.
Looks like they didnt single out Lauren.
As a naturally big-busted woman (yup, 38D), I don’t find the article too amusing. I’ve spent a good portion of my life wishing my breasts were smaller, since they sometimes get in the way (such as doing sports), need a bra for support even when it’s sweltering hot outside, are too big for many fashions, and, most irritatingly, seem to have the power to prevent some men from looking me in the eye. I’ve often felt that I’d be taken more seriously as a B cup. “Funny” articles about fake breasts just reinforce the idea that busty women (since many men can’t distinguish between real and fake breasts) are dumb and only interested in attracting the male gaze.
The thinking seems to be that even God-given 38Ds were fashioned at the expense of cerebro-cortical mass; wit and tit are inversely proportional.
As someone with natural 38Ds (God didn’t give me these tits; my genetics and 15 years of hormonal contraception did), and quite a bit of what passes for intelligence in this culture, I’m going to have to jump on the “ha ha, very funny, asshole,” bandwagon too. I’ve never found that anyone treats me like I’m a bimbo because of my chest size. (Of course, the fact that I evince none of the other cultural signifiers of bimbodom probably has something to do with it.) People are more likely to treat me as if I’m stupid as soon as they notice that I’m physically handicapped, actually (because a physical handicap always means someone’s metally retarded,* right?).
Then again, if I actually kept track of how many different permutations of the “[insert characteristic here] women are stupid” trope there are out there, I’d probably crawl into a hole and never come out, except maybe to bite a few misogynists’ throats out…
(*Pejorative for rhetorical effect.)
Snore, Renegade. I don’t remember the part of the feminist manual where I have to pretend that all women act out of purely altruistic, pure motivations at all times. Your desire to misread my post is beyond obvious; what’s the deal? I’m sympathetic to both low self-esteem and the need for men to give you status. I’m not immune to caving to either pressure, nor did I claim I was.
I can admit it, though. There’s something genuinely pathetic about a woman coming up with a bunch of self-justifying reasons. If a woman said, “Yeah, I got breast implants because it helped me marry up and now I don’t have to work,” I’d at least applaud her forthright no-bullshit attitude.
It’s confusing to me why it’s so easy to get breast augmentation surgery. Look at how many hurdles exist for sex reassignment surgery. I’m not saying the two are on a level (most obviously, sex reassignment destroys reproductive capability and requires a great deal more cutting), but it seems like there ought to be SOME medical or psychological reason necessary to getting breast augmentation. Otherwise, every model is going to be walking around with them and making young girls feel bad! Holy shit, my prophecy came true retroactively! I’ve gotta be careful with that.
I realize that you mean breast implants are said “symbols of desperation,” but due partially to phrasing and partially to the nature of the discussion, that could be read as meaning that larger breasts in and of themselves are symbols of desperation.
Okaaaaaay, we ALL know I didn’t say that, so why streeeeetch the reading?
I have trouble with the idea that reproductive rights are unquestionable but that cosmetic surgery is somehow wrong. It’s all about bodily autonomy, yes? I mean, whatever the reasons we choose to do whatever we do to our bodies, they’re our bodies, right?
So why reinforce negative attitudes about large-breasted women to begin with? I mean, speaking as someone who’s 38D who has had people say insulting and dismissive things to me because they assumed I had implants (I don’t), I don’t see the point in stigmatizing or criticizing this stuff.
Also, Dilan Esper,
It’s really obnoxious to talk about the decisions people make about their own lives when you don’t understand those decisions in the first place. It’s really poor feminism to judge other people’s actions based on your prejudices about their motivations, rather than bothering to learn the truth about them in the first place.
Seriously, feminists - hell, everyone - should just shut up about SRS if they’re just going to complain about it. Would you accept men telling you what your political priorities would be? No? Then don’t tell trans people what our political priorities should be. That’s not your place.
Put me down as another 38D, although mine didn’t grow in until after kids. I started as a 36B about five years ago. Two children later, I’m ginormous and they don’t seem to be going anywhere. They do get in the way of some activities that I used to take for granted, like yoga, and the bouncing is just painful. I haven’t really noticed a huge difference in the way that I’m treated, other than I do get stared at more often and eye contact is definitely less, but no one has implied (to my face) that I’m otherwise less intelligent or accomplished because of the large rack. Although I haven’t had a shirt fit me correctly in years and I kind of miss that (and wearing strappy tank tops without requiring a bra).
I see this as just another example of men requiring women to look a certain way and then mocking them for the tools they use to achieve that look.
Men want their women to be stunningly gorgeous, but if she spends time in front of the mirror or drops money at Sephora she’s “vain” or “high maintenance.”
Yeah, really. My ex complained once when he felt I was taking too long to get ready that I wore too much make up. I wore, and still wear, merely Neutrogena foundation with salicylic acid, and oil-absorbing powder. That was it.
36DD here, and i’m only 5′1′’! i’ll second the inability to find a shirt that fits. one company makes button down shirts based on cup size along with regular size and those are over $100 a shirt. i’m pretty sure i’ve lost out on jobs i was qualified for becos of inability to dress in standard interview clothing like button down shirts. i spend my summers in men’s A style tank tops because nothing else fits. in order for a coat or jacket to fit my bust i have sleeves that go almost to or sometimes even past my fingertips. the world is not kind to the busty amonst us.
and i’m echoing the ewww at the original article.
I am curious to hear you describe how you differentiate between reconstructive surgery and cosmetic surgery, and to have you elaborate on the nature of ‘medically necessary’ cosmetic surgery?
PS: Amanda or someone with mod access, please feel free to delete my typo’d post immediately prior to this one.
I have trouble with the idea that reproductive rights are unquestionable but that cosmetic surgery is somehow wrong. It’s all about bodily autonomy, yes? I mean, whatever the reasons we choose to do whatever we do to our bodies, they’re our bodies, right?
No one is advocating a ban on it. So your analogy falls apart completely right there. But for what it’s worth, women’s liberators had more than “choice” as a reason that birth control is critical. Pregnancy is the site of women’s oppression in so many ways, and birth control is the return of control over pregnancy to the hands where it belongs, which are women’s.
Plastic surgery, however, is largely not about liberating our bodies from male determination, but returning our bodies to male determination, in fact having our bodies carved up to meet standards set by men, and not just any men, but sadistic men who get a rise out of how much they can tell women to jump and find women who’ll say, “How high?” Or in this case, to augment and find women who’ll say, “How big?”
When you live in a patriarchy, even things you do “for yourself” can be problematic. If a significant part of the reason that X makes you feel better about yourself is that you’ve been assaulted for 10, 20, 30 years with messages that not-X is bad, ugly, evil or uncool, then saying you’ve done X for yourself is a statement that can’t just be taken at face value. It may be a sensible choice, or the best thing under the circumstances, but it’s not simple and uncomplicated the way that the phrase seems to suggest. (I think, for example, that many of the people in this conversation would have less trouble seeing the possibility of issues if a black person using skin lightener said they were doing to just to feel better about themselves, without any expectation of a change in attitudes from others.)
Also, am I right in thinking that the “non-” in Dilan Esper’s comment should be taken to apply to all the things in that list?
Nothing about any prior comments should even remotely be considered somehow anti-big-boobs. As a rule, my sympathies are largely with my more be-mammaried sisters. I’ve bristled my whole life at suggestions that I should be jealous, but only a paranoid person would think that’s even in the same ballpark as trashing big breasted women. I am insulted that everything between women is a competition for being the bestest girl. I am also well aware that there’s a real lack of cute lingerie for big breasted women, which is in itself this kind of oppression. My old roommate had huge breasts and would root through my underwear giving me gentle hell over the cute bras that I could find. I felt for her; it seemed a worse oar to row to me than the frequent comments about my small breasts that I find easy enough to brush off.
All of which is why breast implants baffle me, since my whole life there’s been an equal number of messages about why being flat has its good sides to balance the pressure to get implants. I’ve gotten a lot of shit about being flat-chested, but I’ve never had the urge, even once, to “correct” it. It couldn’t sink in, because there’s a genuine countermessage of very beautiful, flat women out there, so you don’t even need to be feminist to see that breast implants=bullshit. I refuse to believe that women who get implants are largely dumbasses, because that makes no sense, so they must just have a much different level of pressure than I’ve been exposed to.
Oh cool, there’s a company that makes shirts based on cup sizes?! I can’t find anything button-down in my size that doesn’t gap at the buttons. I can go one size up sometimes, but it requires shopping exclusively at Catherines and having the rest of the shirt hang like a circus tent. Whether or not being flat chested is a source of pride, it’s got to be a damn sight easier finding clothing that fits, or even a brassier that doesn’t look like the aerospace industry was involved in it’s engineering.
I can’t blame any women who get artificially enhanced chests, though from my perspective it’s hard to understand. Big boobs are nothing but a pain in all kinds of ways. The pressure to conform hits women no matter what their cup size. Women who undergo breast enlargement are easier targets than the culture that bullies them into it, I suppose.
I realize that there isn’t any serious activism to ban plastic surgery, but I do think that the question of bodily autonomy is pretty much inseparable from questions of self-determination and reproductive freedom. Sure, getting breast implants isn’t about whether or not you want to have a baby, but it is about you choosing what you want to do with your body and about whether other people can choose for you. Whether you have control over your own life. Should women feel pressured to have plastic surgery? Not at all. Should women feel pressured to not have plastic surgery? I don’t believe so.
I know that reproduction is used to oppress and control women. I don’t see how the idea that women shouldn’t want larger breasts, or to be thinner, isn’t going down the same path.
I also think it’s overly simplistic to reduce the question of motive for plastic surgery down to nothing more than returning bodies to male determination. Condemning plastic surgery simply shifts from one imperative (this is the idealized female body) to another (no one should want to change her body in particular ways). It’s not really liberation to shift from extreme to the other.
On the other hand, especially with SRS (which was my main point of contention), the reasons for questioning it in the first place are questionable, driven largely by prejudice, and accompanied by unflattering, uninformed, and largerly insulting stereotypes. If someone constantly characterizes my choices in ways that make it clear they have no idea what they’re talking about, should I take their criticism to heart and reexamine a decision I’d already spent most of my life making?
It’s really easy to go from “what you’re doing is questionable because I think it supports the patriarchy” to “I hate what you’re doing and I’ll use the patriarchy thing to justify why you should hate it too.”
Here’s a fun little assignment for any women questioning how our culture influences us as individuals:
When you’re getting ready for bed tonight, take off your shirt, stand in front of a mirror and look at your breasts. Look at your body as a whole. Now, imagine you’ve been told that you need a double mastectomy. The breasts nature gave you have to go. You’re going to need surgery. The choice of how to do it is all yours.
Do you “replace” your breasts with something as close to your own breasts as possible? Do you take advantage of the opportunity and make them smaller? Or larger? Or do you just say, no thanks because any reconstructive method is painful and has its complications?
What do you want? Why does society tell you to want? What can you live with and look at every single day? How much does having breasts vs not having breasts affect your identity as a woman? Your sexuality? How does your partner feel? Does that matter? If so, should it? What if this relationship ends? Does the idea of getting naked with a new partner affect your decision?
The personal meets the political pretty hard in this situation. For me, it was hard to tune out all the other voices and figure out what I really wanted, and I’ve defined myself as a die-hard feminist my whole life.
I’ve been on both sides of the boobed issue; I was small (34B) for most of my life, then in about 6 months grew to something like a 38D or more. I’ve been dealing with these ginormo things for about a year now, and it’s rather annoying.
The worst thing about this was that this happened after I bought my wedding dress, and before my wedding. I barely fit because of it, and since then grew another 2 inches. I don’t fit into my wedding dress anymore, but only in one dimension. I wonder what MeMe Roth would say about that?
Learning how to live with large breasts sucked. Having to get a new wardrobe sucked. Feeling like I have something sticking out of my chest is annoying, but I’m getting used to it. Having to alter all of my clothes sucks.
I honestly preferred being small, and find it somewhat ironic that nature gave me a boob job at 22. I feel sorry for any woman who undergoes breast implants because of the pain and annoyance that it entails.
Seriously? A badge of pride? Do you also get badges of pride for having detached earlobes and outie bellybuttons and other uncontrollable physical traits? Or is this a special kind of “pride” that comes from having the approved kind of women’s body?
I didn’t grow up in that subculture, but wouldn’t pressure to have small breasts be just as bad as the pressure to have large breasts? Sounds like the same bullshit with a cooler soundtrack.
I’m wary of the way you say fake tits ’symbolise’ this, that and the other, Amanda. They’re parts of female bodies, and I generally don’t think it’s cool to assign innate meanings to female body parts that way (even artificial ones). Yeah, in an ideal world some of the reasons people might want breast implants wouldn’t be there. Some of the reasons people diet wouldn’t be there. A lot of the reasons people identify with the indie/punk subculture and perform their subculture with their body and adopt different physical norms because of that wouldn’t be there either.
godless heathen, the company that makes the dress shirts is called “rebecca and drew” but i warn you, they’re seriously expensive.
on “what not to wear” they suggested finding dress shirts that fit in the bust and having them altered by a tailor to fit everywhere else, but that sounds so freaking time consuming.
i do imagine everything would fit better if i found a good bra, and maybe my ribs would cease hurting too.
(an aside to amanda: having grown up in the punk/indie subculture myself i sort of wonder if the preference for breast size/female appearance is regional. when i picture the quintessential texas indie girl she would be smaller chested and wearing cute plaid button down shirts and stuff like that. i’ve been in the chicago area and the punk/indie boys here seem to prefer the russ myers large breasted pin-up girl types, at least the guys i’ve been friends with which is a decent amount. i wonder if it isn’t partially based on outside factors, chicago has that whole working class pride/deep dish pizza thing, whereas austin seems more intellectual/quirky with of course a southern flavor. this is completely unimportant, but you got me thinking.)
Gee Amanda…is being able to find bras and clothes that fit an okay reason for you? Because I know for a fact it is pretty hard to find bras in a 38 almost A in a lot of stores out there.
People get implants for a whole lot of reasons, and you know what, if some of those reasons are to make them feel more attractive, what’s the big deal? People get braces and dye their hair for similar reasons, they also dress in various manners, groom in various manners, so on. And yep, people may also do it to fit in with various people…the same way some people in some groups get tattoos, or get pierced, or engage in other body modifications. Sometimes they do any and all of these things as a point of self expression.
My problem, you see, is that so many people apparently think it is all about the men, 100%, which is the way you came off, and that you assume to know so much about other people’s (well, women with implants anyway) motives & level of self esteem. Which you can’t, and you don’t. It’s arrogant and dismissive, and women take enough of that in daily life.
A woman can do a lot of things to make herself feel better about herself or change her body or take some control over it. She can work out. She can diet. She can dye her hair. She can bleach her teeth. She wear what she wants and makes her feel good or comfortable. Most people don’t make a huge deal out of this, but if she gets implants, oh shit, suddenly she has issues! I don’t understand why boobs- something that women have naturally in some form or another- become such a huge deal when altered. A fake set of tits are not the window to the soul.
Nothing about any prior comments should even remotely be considered somehow anti-big-boobs.
Why make a point of the whole small-breasts-being-a-hipper-than-thou-badge-of-pride thing then?
when i picture the quintessential texas indie girl she would be smaller chested and wearing cute plaid button down shirts and stuff like that. i’ve been in the chicago area and the punk/indie boys here seem to prefer the russ myers large breasted pin-up girl types, at least the guys i’ve been friends with which is a decent amount.
Uh, yeah but. Picturing the quintessential indie girl and picturing the kind of girl indie boys dream about fucking are two different things though. Aren’t they? I mean, if “indie girls” means anything apart from “indie boys’ girlfriends.”
.Bravissimo.com also sells clothes for the busty, including button down shirts. For cheaper than $100 — though they are a UK company so, uh, maybe not that much cheaper any more.
I can buy someone getting breast implants for herself. Lots of women ilke boobs, het women even. I’m on the small end of “busty”– 28F– and, frankly, my boobs make me happier. No real reason. Not out of smugness because I have some kind of perfect body or anything. They just do. And they make me happier when they’re bigger.
I don’t think it’s just a sex thing, although I’m not heterosexual. It’s definitely not an man-appeal thing. I think it’s maybe just that I like the curves of women’s bodies and big boobs are slightly less stigmatised and so easier to enjoy than curvy hips or thighs or butts. But that’s over intellectualising it– mainly it’s like “Whee! Boobs!” I am certain that’s not just me and I can see it as a reason to get implants for some women. Though most unlikely to be the most common reason.
BadKitty: “The personal meets the political pretty hard in this situation. For me, it was hard to tune out all the other voices and figure out what I really wanted, and I’ve defined myself as a die-hard feminist my whole life. ”
I take your point, but I’m not sure how this implicates feminism. You could do a similar analysis about a guy losing a testicle or getting excess mammary tissue.
Sure, women make more physical adjustments than men, on average. But an extreme example like this, IMO, doesn’t really tell us anything. Making adjustments after an illness may be more about not looking as if one has had the illness than about regaining femininity or masculinity. Or it may be a combination. Any statistician would reject this out of hand as an authoritative isolator of feminist sensibility.
i find myself unable to properly articulate what i meant.
i could explain myself much better if i were speaking not typing and able to gesture wildly with my hands, i promise.
as it is, i agree i phrased that like an ass.
im trying here. i guess for me picturing the quintessential indie girl involves my own sexual desires as i’m attracted to women, and i feel sort of lousy that i cant divorce my desire from what i picture. but i think she would look different based on her community, i mean, the consumate rockabilly queen is going to look different from the coolest crust punk girl, but when it comes to people who arent part of some very specific sub-genre there tends to be an overlap of styles which would be different in different places and i think what body types are common in the area might influence the way such a girl presents herself, here in the midwest you have alot of plus sized people, myself included. and i wondered if maybe part of that was regional, what is seen as positive within a given community. i had never heard much about breasts either way within the subculture with the exception of what those attracted to breasts prefered so that could have led me to misinterpret the original statement. i can say definitively that there is an emphasis in the punk/indie community on non-augmented breasts overall when it comes to elective cosmetic surgery. which i imagine is standard nationwide.
if i have to give a concrete answer, where i dont ramble incoherently and actually make some semblance of sense, im going to have to say carrie brownstein from sleater kinney is the quintessential indie girl. and my hero.
Well, I had SRS and I always assumed I would have implants at some point, but recently, I think it’s less and less likely that I will. Why? I dunno, I just feel less and less like I need them to prove my womanhood. I’m more comfortable with my own body now than I was. My best friend used to have implants and was a topless dancer in her younger years (before I knew her). Yes, I believe that women are to different extents pressured by a society that values larger breast, but… Knowing that SRS is seen as some sort of patriarchal-enforcing procedure by some (which I don’t personally believe) makes it very hard for me to see anyone else’s decision to modify their body as anything but personal. My friend was a dancer before implants and after and she said she made a LOT more money after. I also had a friend that had very large breasts and had to get a reduction because they were wrecking her back. I just… well… I just can’t throw stones. I liked Bitch, Ph.D.’s reply to the e-mail she got about the article. Mocking or praising women because of their breasts, large or small, just seems remarkably anti-feminist.
“…there’s a real lack of cute lingerie for big breasted women, which is in itself this kind of oppression. “
::fatal eyeroll:: “To the barricades!”
The above sentence will now be found as the leading example in the definition of “unmitigated hyperbole”.
Certainly no one should mock (or praise) anyone on the size of their breasts, but someone who can type the offending sentence above should definitely be mocked.
De-lurking momentarily just because this is something I care about.
I’m a 36F, completely natural, and I cannot stand it when people assume anything about me based on my chest size. Yes they are large. No I am not an idiot. And you know what? Despite the pain and annoyance, I love them. They give me a curvy hourglass figure that I adore. I think that they are pretty. And I’m not het and I don’t generally give a damn what men think. I just happen to like my boobs. And I don’t think that that makes me any less feminist than liking the fact that I have wide hips.
I also have a thing about symmetry. If I wasn’t symmetrical would I get implants? I don’t know. But if I did that would be my business and no one else’s. Harping on womens’ choices about cosmetic surgery reminds me to much of the way anti-choicers harp on womens’ abortions. Well, she should only get one if it’s for the reasons that I think are good enough. I’m sorry, but it’s her body, her choice and nobody else’s damn business.
Also, an hour long sewing/alterations course in your local fabric store is a huge help to all of the busty women out there trying to find clothes that fit. It’s a lot easier and quicker than most people think it is and the best way I know of to get clothes that fit you rather than the standard fashion industry model which is based on a 1940s just out of boot camp, in a girdle, b cup silhouette.
OK. Re-lurking now.
My theory is that they want you to feel bad about yourself no matter what you do if you’re woman who doesn’t naturally fit their ideals (not that their ideas are “natural”, but that’s a different subject).
Don’t fit the ideal? You suck. Have to take surgical/cosmetic/other steps to fit the ideal. You’re a loser.
Oo, I do like it when men come and tell us what we ought to get annoyed about and what we shouldn’t bother our pretty heads with.
Stupid unrealistic beauty standards are oppressive. The fact that most women can’t buy well-fitting clothes that are pleasant to wear is part of said stupid unrealistic beauty standard. It’s a small thing, but there are thousands of small things like it and they add up.
(34DD here, but nobody’s called me a bimbo to my face since my hair faded from blonde to light brown.)
It was sort of a sad day for me when I realized I would never really be able to wear the cute frilly bras and would forever have to wrangle my jugs into the Playtex 18 Hour Bras (which, don’t get me wrong, are a godsend–but it would be nice to have something “special” to wear for a romantic evening).
It was another sad day when I realized that most clothing manufacturers fail to realize that most women don’t make it to sizes “L” and beyond with B cups (although bravo to the ladies who do), making most of the casual summerwear completely unwearable.
Now, and I’m thinking out loud here… I realize that if I were that committed to finding clothing that fits and looks nice, I could, but I would have to invest more time and energy into the search process than I do now. And I’ve always been a bit of a freak in that department — but looking at the stories that people have posted here, both from being a little “too big” or a little “too small” (not to mention all of the weight issues) and comparing that with the stereotype that women are dizzy little shopoholics who would spend all of their time and money at the mall … something tells me that there’s probably more of a reason that women “spend so much time at the mall” than simply “We’re obsessed with pretty clothes.”
I don’t get the holier-than-thou tone of this post and I’m a fellow flat-chester who never once considered implants. How on earth do you think that passing around an asinine article about how men laugh at fake boobs is going to slay a “big cultural myth”? You’re only reinforcing that what men think about women’s bodies is the ultimate arbiter of what women do with them. You’re just shaming women.
My friends have fake boobs and hell if I want to shame my friends for that. They think my ink and hair dye are dumb. We all do what we do to get by. You got baited into drawing lines between women that are stupid and arbitrary and you took that bait. Congrats.
I’m utterly baffled by the people choosing to read this as a slam on naturally large breasts. Baffled. The *only* way you could get that reading is if you were seeking to be offended. I should have never mentioned my chest size; I was just pointing out that some people are lucky enough to be spared the social pressures for whatever reason. I do believe we’re instructed—-all the fucking time, actually—to own our privilege, admit it, etc. But man, if *admit* a privilege, acknowledge it, etc. that seems to make other angrier than mere oblivion. Fascinating.
Amanda, me and my naturually bodacious ta-tas were not offended by your article.
Oh, yes, men ran away from women with low self esteem as if from the plague.
It’s a good thing that in this neat world of ours, no one is interested in murdering women’s self esteem by, say, constant bombardment of female perfection, subliminal messages that we need to be fixed, female objectification that says to us straight on the face that unless we are fuckable we are as well as dead, etc.
Good thing that no woman ever develops low self esteem.
My issue isn’t with implants, or plastic surgery, so much as - Why “marry up?” Why marry the kind of man you have to be physically perfect to attract? What are the benefits, besides possible fame or at least sitting on your butt eating bonbons until you are traded in for a younger model?
I would think that marrying someone who likes you for who you really are would result in happier marriage. And less insecurity, because men who marry women because they have “great tits” are the ones who are prone to adultery and divorce on a whim (Y HALO THAR DONALD!).
Let’s put it this way, I would never want Victoria Beckham’s life.
My big-breasted sisters, don’t wear men’s undershirts in the summertime! Athleta.com has a cami with bra that goes up to 42DD. Floating underwires, molded cups–really decent support in a spaghetti-strap cami, and pretty comfy to boot.
“I did grow up with the benefit of the indie/punk subculture, where being kind of flat is something of a badge of pride.”
Ah, not to a complete dick or anything, but I too had the benefit of growing up in the indie/punk subculture and boys still liked tits, sometimes to my small-chested chagrin.
Not sure what indie/punk subculture has to do with anything.
I gotta say your whole first paragraph, Amanda, is dripping with self-righteous condescension, generalizations and cut-and-dried absolute subjective observations. In fact, it’s creepy. Sorry.
For me the article sounds a lot like a fasion backlash. When breast implants were relatively uncommon they were exciting for men. “Are they or aren’t they?” A guy could tell his friends about the “the chick” he dated with fake ones and they would all gather around and ask how they felt, et. It was a novel thing.
Now they are so common there is no mystery anymore, and men can now brag about their girl with natural breasts.
And this: “The thinking seems to be that even God-given 38Ds were fashioned at the expense of cerebro-cortical mass; wit and tit are inversely proportional”, just pisses me off. My tits went from AA to DD seemingly overnight when I was 12, and I am so tired of being judged by them.
“If I wasn’t symmetrical would I get implants? I don’t know. But if I did that would be my business and no one else’s. Harping on womens’ choices about cosmetic surgery reminds me to much of the way anti-choicers harp on womens’ abortions. Well, she should only get one if it’s for the reasons that I think are good enough. I’m sorry, but it’s her body, her choice and nobody else’s damn business.”
Now, THAT, I like.
Well said, Mea.
I never have liked fake tits and, truth be known, I tend to prefer the Netherlands in its natural state. Not sure what kind of asshole that makes me and don’t care.
Octagalore said:
“If it’s impossible to take any step appearance-wise without being insecure or doing it for the men, then the slippery slope includes manicures, makeup, frequent hair styling, etc. Or high heels. Or suntanning.”
Yes! Precisely! Women don’t do any of these things for themselves- but not because they’re insecure. We all do that stuff- not “for the men” precisely- but in order to signal our conformity with the culture that values us as sex and status objects for a supposed male delectation. (Individual males of any sense can and will disagree.) A woman, like myself, who spends time putting on make-up and removing hair, and who periodically shoves her feet into crippling shoes, is not insecure, stupid, or a bad feminist- she’s just conforming to the culture to the extent that she’ll benefit. But if she thinks she’s doing it “for herself,” she’s just crazy wrong.
jessislikewhoa’s discussion of the “perfect indie girl” is very illuminating here. I knew EXACTLY what he meant. The “perfect girl” will vary according to cultures and subcultures- just like a designer bag, she is a status object and subject to the vagaries of fashion. A punk kid from Austin wouldn’t listen to corporate country, and he wouldn’t want to walk around with a big-haired beauty queen. It would be kind of UNCOOL, right? And what’s cool in Austin isn’t necessarily what’s cool in Chicago, so adjust your objectification process accordingly.
I think that boob jobs are coming in for extra scorn because they are linked with cultures that most of us here find gross- strip-club culture, trophy-wife culture, teased, conservative, overtly misogynist red-state culture. Even Details thinks these cultures are dorky. But let’s not fool ourselves. No matter how punk or indie we are, we still have an ideal woman-product. There is still a “perfect girl.”
Oh, and boob jobs can kill you right away. So there’s that.
Octagalore said:
“If it’s impossible to take any step appearance-wise without being insecure or doing it for the men, then the slippery slope includes manicures, makeup, frequent hair styling, etc. Or high heels. Or suntanning.”
Yes! Precisely! Women don’t do any of these things for themselves- but not because they’re insecure. We all do that stuff- not “for the men” precisely- but in order to signal our conformity with the culture that values us as sex and status objects for a supposed male delectation. (Individual males of any sense can and will disagree.) A woman, like myself, who spends time putting on make-up and removing hair, and who periodically shoves her feet into crippling shoes, is not insecure, stupid, or a bad feminist- she’s just conforming to the culture to the extent that she’ll benefit. But if she thinks she’s doing it “for herself,” she’s just crazy wrong.
jessislikewhoa’s discussion of the “perfect indie girl” is very illuminating here. I knew EXACTLY what he meant. The “perfect girl” will vary according to cultures and subcultures- just like a designer bag, she is a status object and subject to the vagaries of fashion. A punk kid from Austin wouldn’t listen to corporate country, and he wouldn’t want to walk around with a big-haired beauty queen. It would be kind of UNCOOL, right? And what’s cool in Austin isn’t necessarily what’s cool in Chicago, so adjust your objectification process accordingly.
I think that boob jobs are coming in for extra scorn because they are linked with cultures that most of us here find gross- strip-club culture, trophy-wife culture, teased, conservative, overtly misogynist red-state culture. Even Details thinks these cultures are dorky. But let’s not fool ourselves. No matter how punk or indie we are, we still have an ideal woman-product. There is still a “perfect girl.”
Oh, and boob jobs can kill you right away. So there’s that.
I’m sorry Amanda, I adore your writing and maybe have a mad crush on your brain, but I can’t get behind this. I don’t think that women who get implants are all doing it for men any more than anyone who gets any other cosmetic alteration done. Many? I’ll say maybe, but it just seems a little off to me to claim all women do x because of y.
While not aesthetically a fan of (cosmetic) fake boobs myself, I do think that they should be seen as another body modification, not a special category. That said, there is definitely a social pressure for a certain size among women.
I’m an A cup, and my girlfriend’s a D. We tend to , especially in the course of clothes/lingerie shopping, talk about the difficulties of our respective sizes. We’re both indie types, her more hippies, and me more goth, and we’ve never felt like we had the “right” build, subculture or no. We both have issues finding clothes that fit, as fitted things are generally made with a B/C in mind. And we both have a hell of a time finding lingerie, as bigger=”practical” and really small=”cutesy” in so many designer’s minds. But overall, I’d say larger breasts definitely get the worse treatment, culturally. (This was rambly, pardon me.)
I know that the question of fake tits gets endlessly replayed and often compared to reproductive rights in the feminist blogsphere (and in RL).
But I don’t think that’s the right frame - I can’t help but think the better comparison is something closer to foot binding or circumcision (male and female) or having lower ribs removed for smaller waists or head flattening or plate lips or neck stretching or scarification or massive tattooing or toe removal or nose jobs or vagina jobs or multiple piercings or steroid use - permanent, invasive body modifications for current social and cultural fashions - that will pass in time.
In comparison — which is not really a comparison at all -
All women everywhere have always needed and always will need the full panoply of reproductive rights.
While I would never dream of imposing my skepticism of embracing permanent body modifications for passing fashion trends on anyone else via law, I think it is important feminist and humanist (overlapping but not identical categories) work to always keep questioning the social and cultural forces that ask some (but never all) to undergo permanent body alterations in order to better ‘fit in’ to whatever the temporary ideal is.
I know this is hard to do without making it sound like we/I/whomever is doing the talking are calling individuals who choose to do the body modification stupid *as individuals* when calling into question the standards they are participating in. Maybe even impossible.
But as feminists say to men, and POC to clueless white people, if you are not part of the problem - then don’t take offense when we name it and describe it. If maybe you are - well, then, you have some shit to be thinking about.
And sometimes what you have to deal with is that you can’t escape being part of the problem. I will never stop being a highly educated white woman, and I will never be able to escape the privilege that comes with that. What I do with that knowledge is what I can control - and struggle mightily to always be thoughtful about - and sometimes I fail.
Women who get - in this case - cosmetic breast enhancements - will (or did) do so for whatever basket of reasons makes the best sense to them. But that won’t stop them from *also* becoming one more example of a woman who chose to spend a lot of money on a permanent alteration to make her body closer to the current dominant ideal, and every one of us women who has not yet made that choice has to live in a world where that choice moves closer to being one she has to actively make. When that kind of surgery was an affectation of the very rich, it didn’t matter so much.
Now that it is - more or less - available to all of us if we want it badly enough - choosing not to have or to secure permanent body modifications is increasingly a fraught social and even political choice.
I think these fights are going to get way worse before they get better.
I do believe we’re instructed—-all the fucking time, actually—to own our privilege, admit it, etc. But man, if *admit* a privilege, acknowledge it, etc. that seems to make other angrier than mere oblivion. Fascinating.
Weird that in the course of bashing women who get implants, you get bashed in return for saying that you have naturally small breasts and have never felt the social pressure?
Seriously, I know you have more self-awareness than that.
Yes, you’re lucky that you weren’t teased for having large breasts starting at the age of 10. You’re very lucky that you didn’t have boys calling you “Jugs” every day until you went to high school where you could wear baggy sweatshirts to disguise yourself. Being lucky doesn’t excuse being smug about being lucky.
Women who get - in this case - cosmetic breast enhancements - will (or did) do so for whatever basket of reasons makes the best sense to them. But that won’t stop them from *also* becoming one more example of a woman who chose to spend a lot of money on a permanent alteration to make her body closer to the current dominant ideal, and every one of us women who has not yet made that choice has to live in a world where that choice moves closer to being one she has to actively make.
Here’s the problem that I and some of the other large-breasted women posting here are trying to point out: we are often treated by our fellow feminists as having made the “choice” to have large breasts even though it came from our genes. We’re blamed for conforming to a societal ideal that we didn’t create. Sometimes, we even get accused of having gotten implants even though we didn’t, because no one can believe that some women naturally have DD or larger.
That’s the other side of the coin that you’re ignoring. We’re getting judged every day by both misogynist men and “feminist” women, and it gets really, really tiresome.
orange, those camis you linked to look great, but are the cups actually supportive? the only top ive ever had with a built in bra didnt support anything and my tits just fell out of the cups as i moved. not fun.
Agreed about the perfect indie girl trope, in case there was a shred of doubt (fueled I believe by willful misinterpretation). My point is that it was a beauty standard that was easier to meet for me than the beauty standards that encourage breast implants. Not saying that’s great, in fact the opposite. Saying that I don’t deserve to preen and take personal credit for resisting the siren call of breast implants largely because I wasn’t really hearing the siren call.
Mnem, has someone really given you a hard time for having naturally big breasts? I sure wouldn’t blame “feminists” for that, especially if it’s like one woman who maybe has issues. Was it online, because I’d be interested in reading that thread, to see what the hell someone could be thinking to give someone a hard time about that. I can’t comprehend someone giving a naturally big-breasted woman anything but sympathetic murmurs for her troubles in the bra-buying and asshole-bouncing departments.
Again, my entire point in bringing it up was that there’s clearly a lot of anti-boob beauty standards, and I don’t see how women with breast implants were prevented from seeing that.
Eh, I also got sort of a smug “well I didn’t bow to the pressure so it’s ok to make fun of those who did” vibe from the article. Can’t win ‘em all.
But anyway, I have done the “What Not To Wear” thing and bought my shirts large and gotten them tailored. It really isn’t that big a deal and not terribly expensive. Having one good shirt that costs $15 more is better than cheaper shirts you don’t wear because men stare sideways at your bra through the gap in the buttons.
Of course after this many years of wearing knits starched button-down shirts just feel incredibly uncomfortable anyway. But it’s a good tactic for those who like them.
Amanda;
Women with implants are very aware of a lot of attitudes and standards and stereotypes placed upon them. Very, very aware. We hear men say “natural is better”, we hear women say everything from natural is better to “omfg, how could you DO that!” We hear all kinds of shit, and deal with all kinds of assumptions, and it gets old. Very, very old. It’s good you never faced pressure in your group to get implants. And yep, growing up most girls get teased about something, or a variety of things, and a whole lot of women do a whole lot of things to change their appearances…little things like hair dye and big things like stomach staples. But with each of those women, they deserve to be comfortable in their own bodies, and they do have the choice and autonomy to modify as they will. And if whatever they do, things little or big, if it makes them happier…why thrash it?
More on “the perfect girl.”
Here’s why the details guy is a dick. (I think we all know this instinctively.) His criticism of breast implants is not directed towards the pressure to conform, it’s directed toward the aesthetic choice. He’s reviewing an album or a movie that isn’t sufficiently “counter-culture” for his tastes. But he’s nowhere near radical enough to wrap his mind around the idea that women are fundamentally different from consumer products. The message is “don’t conform to the taste of the tacky porn culture, conform to the taste of the “Details” culture.” I think Vice Magazine once made some utterly ridiculous dolls that illustrated this point to a perfection. Idiots.
Amanda has written on the male dominated world of rock snobdom. I wonder if some of the hostility directed towards female music snobs is related to them acting as consumers/critics/arbiters of taste when their real role is as product.
Mnem, has someone really given you a hard time for having naturally big breasts?
Many people have, my entire life. It gets very tiresome to be constantly treated as though you must be stupid because, after all, you have big breasts! You’re only there to be an object of fun, and if you don’t find it funny, you must not have a sense of humor! And, yes, there have been women who assumed I must be stupid/slutty/overly competitive because my ancestors gave me the genes for large breasts.
It’s not a problem on the internet because — surprise! — no one knows I’m a D-cup unless I tell them. One of the many, many, many reasons I guard my anonymity so fiercely. It’s just not worth dealing with the harassment.
Sorry, but dismissing the problems of large-breasted women as “oh, they can’t find cute lingerie” is probably the most condescending thing I’ve heard you say, and I’ve been reading you for quite a while now.
Rei — thanks for the kind words.
However, not so sure about: “Oh, and boob jobs can kill you right away. So there’s that.” A boob job done by a reputable surgeon with full medical disclosure beforehand is less dangerous than getting into a car, much less so than a motorcycle. Would you volunteer the possibility of death to a woman biker? If not, it’s worthwhile thinking about whether there’s something else going on here.
Amanda, for the record (and I know you don’t know me from Jane, but still), I didn’t think you were saying you were better for not having large breasts or that there was anything wrong with having big breasts. I think that was plenty clear. What I was saying in my comment was that even seeing that phrasing “badge of honor” brought back a certain sting from a certain time period in my life.
But I still didn’t like the Details article. I thought it was mean. (And I’m in the camp that doesn’t really think women get boob jobs “for themselves,” because if it weren’t for external social factors, why would the size of your breasts make you feel one way or the other? But I still thought it was mean.)
And EvolutionRenegade, yes, that does include all the other body modification we do, large and small. Breast implants are on a continuum. More significant than wearing makeup. Less significant than foot-binding, but it’s all the same stuff.
chingona; oh, no choice is made in a vacuum, that is for certain…but it isn’t always all about the men either. That’s my theory anyway.
Amanda wrote:
Or maybe even to sexist pigs like me who just doesn’t like fake.
Mnemosyne, that totally bites. Being unremarkably- cupped myself, I’ve never had to cope with it, but I’ve heard enough to not be at all shocked by it. I hope no self-identified feminists were among those women, because it pains me to say “bad feminist!”
Anyway, I still really like my Details-guy-as-product reviewer trope. So, using that, perhaps some of the anger people like Mnemosyne are feeling stems from the way only the result (whether natural or surgical) is being judged? Amanda is critiquing the choice to drastically alter oneself. Details guy just seems to think that large-breasted women are akin to Nascar, Kid Rock, Donald Trump- so tacky! It’s not about questioning the woman’s choice, it’s about rejecting her product category.
octogalore: As a woman biker, people think nothing of reminding me of my impending doom.
Amanda, I have to agree with Mnem. You’re really being willfully dense here, not being willfully misinterpreted.
I can’t believe that you can just flippantly dismiss what the people here are saying with “Yeah, it sucks you can’t find cute lingerie.” It also sucks that young girls who develop early are labeled sluts and told their bodies are vulgar and that they’re just trying to tempt men (remember that Carol Lloyd piece in which she freaked out about her 3-year-old daughter’s weight because she might become some kind of middle school tart, sauntering around with tampons in her purse and breasts for all the world to see?). It sucks that those damn modesty surveys make it very clear that there is NO WAY that the large-breasted can ever conform to those ideals, and the women and girls are told they can’t conform because they’re sluts. It sucks to be a target of taunting, gossip and speculation just because you developed breasts — not to mention that it sucks that men feel like they can put their hands on you because you have a body that says “sex” to them. It sucks to be told that you must be stupid, it sucks that people feel free to make comments about your chest and your intelligence and your sluttiness. It sucks to have people ask you whether your breasts are real or bought.
In short, it sucks in a million little ways that have nothing to do with cute lingerie and have *everything* to do with how women are valued and devalued in this culture, and I’m really disappointed that you think that’s the best you have to do just because you went out of your way to say that in your subculture, a flat chest is a “badge of pride” — and then didn’t bother to examine just *why* it’s a badge of pride, who considers it a badge of pride, and what kind of message that sends to the women in your subculture (which you weren’t raised in, so I don’t see how you never had *any* pressure to the contrary) who don’t have flat chests.
nell: “But that won’t stop them from *also* becoming one more example of a woman who chose to spend a lot of money on a permanent alteration to make her body closer to the current dominant ideal, and every one of us women who has not yet made that choice has to live in a world where that choice moves closer to being one she has to actively make. ”
This is another example of something that’s already so much more problematic in many other ways that the bemoaning of the very remote likelihood (especially given the indie punk and other looks trumpeted here) of BJs becoming par for the course seems insincere.
If women were going to make decisions about presentation based on uniform availability of those decisions, we should close down shopping malls, hair salons, shoestores, jewelry stores, etc. We should not frequent expensive gyms or spas. We should not get body art at specialty shops that aren’t pro bono.
In a similar vein, we know that certain jobs which didn’t used to require grad degrees now do. That excludes women who cannot afford grad degrees. So, to avoid perpetuating and adding to an unfair standard, we should stop pursuing grad degrees. These, like boob jobs, are optional, after all. Many times they are cosmetic — we’re just doing them for job attractiveness.
Finally, not all women have access, financial or otherwise, to birth control. By utilizing this and being sexually active before we are married or otherwise want children, we are making it more difficult for these women to remain abstinent. Therefore, we must cast aside birth control.
Clearly, this is all BS. Women have every right to bodily and other autonomy in our choices. Unless one would apply the “don’t do it if it could be exacerbating an unfair standard” meme in other areas, insisting on its application in the boob job example is hypocritical. And indicative of another agenda besides fairness.
nell: “But that won’t stop them from *also* becoming one more example of a woman who chose to spend a lot of money on a permanent alteration to make her body closer to the current dominant ideal, and every one of us women who has not yet made that choice has to live in a world where that choice moves closer to being one she has to actively make. ”
This is another example of something that’s already so much more problematic in many other ways that the bemoaning of the very remote likelihood (especially given the indie punk and other looks trumpeted here) of BJs becoming par for the course seems insincere.
If women were going to make decisions about presentation based on uniform availability of those decisions, we should close down shopping malls, hair salons, shoestores, jewelry stores, etc. We should not frequent expensive gyms or spas. We should not get body art at specialty shops that aren’t pro bono.
In a similar vein, we know that certain jobs which didn’t used to require grad degrees now do. That excludes women who cannot afford grad degrees. So, to avoid perpetuating and adding to an unfair standard, we should stop pursuing grad degrees. These, like boob jobs, are optional, after all. Many times they are cosmetic — we’re just doing them for job attractiveness.
Finally, not all women have access, financial or otherwise, to birth control. By utilizing this and being sexually active before we are married or otherwise want children, we are making it more difficult for these women to remain abstinent. Therefore, we must cast aside birth control.
Clearly, this is all BS. Women have every right to bodily and other autonomy in our choices. Unless one would apply the “don’t do it if it could be exacerbating an unfair standard” meme in other areas, insisting on its application in the boob job example is hypocritical. And indicative of another agenda besides fairness.
nell: “But that won’t stop them from *also* becoming one more example of a woman who chose to spend a lot of money on a permanent alteration to make her body closer to the current dominant ideal, and every one of us women who has not yet made that choice has to live in a world where that choice moves closer to being one she has to actively make. ”
This is another example of something that’s already so much more problematic in many other ways that the bemoaning of the very remote likelihood (especially given the indie punk and other looks trumpeted here) of BJs becoming par for the course seems insincere.
If women were going to make decisions about presentation based on uniform availability of those decisions, we should close down shopping malls, hair salons, shoestores, jewelry stores, etc. We should not frequent expensive gyms or spas. We should not get body art at specialty shops that aren’t pro bono.
In a similar vein, we know that certain jobs which didn’t used to require grad degrees now do. That excludes women who cannot afford grad degrees. So, to avoid perpetuating and adding to an unfair standard, we should stop pursuing grad degrees. These, like boob jobs, are optional, after all. Many times they are cosmetic — we’re just doing them for job attractiveness.
Finally, not all women have access, financial or otherwise, to birth control. By utilizing this and being sexually active before we are married or otherwise want children, we are making it more difficult for these women to remain abstinent. Therefore, we must cast aside birth control.
Clearly, this is all BS. Women have every right to bodily and other autonomy in our choices. Unless one would apply the “don’t do it if it could be exacerbating an unfair standard” meme in other areas, insisting on its application in the boob job example is hypocritical. And indicative of another agenda besides fairness.
nell: “But that won’t stop them from *also* becoming one more example of a woman who chose to spend a lot of money on a permanent alteration to make her body closer to the current dominant ideal, and every one of us women who has not yet made that choice has to live in a world where that choice moves closer to being one she has to actively make. ”
This is another example of something that’s already so much more problematic in many other ways that the bemoaning of the very remote likelihood (especially given the indie punk and other looks trumpeted here) of BJs becoming par for the course seems insincere.
If women were going to make decisions about presentation based on uniform availability of those decisions, we should close down shopping malls, hair salons, shoestores, jewelry stores, etc. We should not frequent expensive gyms or spas. We should not get body art at specialty shops that aren’t pro bono.
In a similar vein, we know that certain jobs which didn’t used to require grad degrees now do. That excludes women who cannot afford grad degrees. So, to avoid perpetuating and adding to an unfair standard, we should stop pursuing grad degrees. These, like boob jobs, are optional, after all. Many times they are cosmetic — we’re just doing them for job attractiveness.
Finally, not all women have access, financial or otherwise, to birth control. By utilizing this and being sexually active before we are married or otherwise want children, we are making it more difficult for these women to remain abstinent. Therefore, we must cast aside birth control.
Clearly, this is all BS. Women have every right to bodily and other autonomy in our choices. Unless one would apply the “don’t do it if it could be exacerbating an unfair standard” meme in other areas, insisting on its application in the boob job example is hypocritical. And indicative of another agenda besides fairness.
Octagalore, Kanye West’s mom JUST died. Top of my brain.
Cars, motorcycles, or anything else that transports you or is just damn fun- that has nothing to do with surgery for the sole purpose of altering your appearance (and by that, I mean a woman’s appearance). Sure, people of both genders can get on a bike to look hot, but they can also do it to get to work or enjoy the speed. So, I’m afraid it’s kind of a specious comparison.
The day I say “Women are jumping out of planes in order to conform more fully with the beauty standard” then you can come back and throw it in my face.
Agree with Rei. Breast implants are a source of debate more than other forms of body modification precisely because surgery is, by its very definition, dangerous.
As an aside, I tend to fall into the patriarchy-blamers camp, in as much as I think the decision to have a breast augmentation (and ONLY augmentation, I’m not talking about reduction or reconstruction) has much more to do than patriarchal oppression and pressure to conform to the beauty standard than with any personal reason that the patient may have, although I do grant that the patient’s personal preferences may have some influence on the decision. Just a lesser influence. I think of it more in terms of a “preponderance of the evidence” standard (51% vs. 49%) than a “beyond a shadow of a doubt” standard (100% vs. 0%).
Rei, come on. Dig a little deeper. Wasn’t it obvious that my caveats about full medical disclosure and reputable surgeon were in reference to exactly that? West’s mother had a heart condition, her previous surgeon refused to operate on her, and the guy who did had a number of malpractice claims. Also, a tummy tuck is much more radical than a boobjob, if we’re drawing lines, which I’d prefer to avoid.
Also, if “is just damn fun” is your requirement for “feminist approved boob jobs,” then mine qualifies. Too bad my husband prefers the before pics, but then again it wasn’t about what he wanted.
Hey, just realized that my comment #86 sounds really condescending. Sorry. No idea how that happened.
Anyway, Mezosub, though I do think that implants are dangerous, I stated earlier that the real reason they come in for more criticism from certain publications and websites is that they are associated with cultures that said publications and websites despise. See comment #70. Only your radical feminists will argue that women shouldn’t conform to a beauty ideal. Everyone else argues about what beauty ideal they should conform with.
And I believe that’s “somewhat different beauty ideal” is what Amanda meant by “badge of pride.” The phrasing was perhaps unfortunate.
Octagalore, you seized on the throwaway comment at the end of my post. I’d much prefer you responded to the substance. There’s no such thing as a “feminist approved boob job.” If there was, how would I know? I’m not on the board. (There is no board!) But there’s also no such thing as a body modification that a woman undertakes for “herself” or “for the fun of it.”
For the record, I probably would have gone in for surgery if I had a substantial size discrepancy. But it wouldn’t have been remotely comparable to motorcycling, which is undertaken for the process, not the end result. I mean, unless you actually enjoy the process of having your body cut open and bits shoved into it. Which… hey. Whoah. I would really have nothing to say to that.