after it becomes self-aware (which has gotta happen at some point before the exit from the womb)

Wrong. Even an infant, already born, is not self-aware.

Sixties said:

For the ones you persuaded, MP, I don’t suppose you started your discussions with them by calling them evil liars.

Did you even bother to read what she wrote?

Autrobean, I am tempted to snark back, did you even bother to read all the posts in this string?

That question was rhetorical for the folks on the board who have crossed swords with me over whether anti-choices or pro-lifers are all evil liars. I have argued that it is a tactical, and often an actual, mistake to label those folks that way, even though the logical consequences of their position is bad for women. Undoubtedly MP was successful in her efforts to persuade because she was able to engage them without being overtly hostile. I give her credit for it.

I think the distinction between the different groups *is* important. We live in a democracy, which means that in order to create a truly pro-choice society we need to convince people who are currently uninterested and even hostile to the idea that it is in their best interest. That’s all that I was thinking–just that its good to have some idea of who isn’t going to listen no matter what, and who will.

Jesurgislac
November 29, 2007 at 4:46 am
By the way, something Rob claimed upthread that bothered me at the time: “By “self-awareness” I mean that they react to their surroundings (i.e., they express displeasure if you circumsize them), can feel emotions, etc.” - who has ever tried to circumsize a fetus? Why would anyone want to? What is Rob talking about?

Well, I’m not sure why that would bother you, but here’s the explanation.

Nobody ever tries to circumsize a fetus, obviously. I was taking an example of a baby reacting to its surroundings, to having part of its body cut off, and reaction emotionally by crying. So I was just using it as an example of what I had been mistakenly calling “self-awareness”, at a time when I was asking when “self-awareness” began.

That’s all.

But you’ll note that the way that fundamentalists leave the authoritarian world-view is not based on what we think or say about them.

Which is why this maundering about motives is useless and satisfying only to those making the distinctions.

I was thinking specifically about the series of posts at Orcinus called “Cracks In the Wall.” It’s a three-parter, this is the second part where Sara Robinson talks about the ways in which fundies leave their authority-based worlds: http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/08/cracks-in-wall-part-ii-listening-to.html

For the ones you persuaded, MP, I don’t suppose you started your discussions with them by calling them evil liars.

Did you even bother to read what she wrote?

Why does it matter when the results are the same?

And I’m far from convinced that the so-called stupid ones, if acting out of religious belief, are any more likely to be convinced of the wrongness of what they do since it means questioning their faith. I don’t think that’s likely. I know that there are people who post here who have made the long transition from religious, even fundamental religious backgrounds. but really are they in any way a majority?

At the center of the “pro-life movement” (or pro-birth movement as someone said up-thread) are the anti-choicers. I doubt that this group can be reached. These are the ones for which the strongest language about standing firm is necessary. These are the ones who do everything in their power to keep Planned Parenthood facilities from opening, or make it a requirement that ob/gyn’s that perform abortions have to live under siege.

The first group will follow the second into hell, perhaps, but it will be out of stupidity (not that they aren’t necessarily intelligent people, but they aren’t applying their intelligence to this, in the same way I am stupid about a great deal of financial things simply because I don’t take the time to try and understand them). As to the second group being evil or stupid…I would say the truly committed ones are evil.