According to the San Antonio newspaper, as of this morning, there are still 20,000 people stranded on roofs awaiting aid in the Mexican state of Tabasco. 1.5 million have been displaced from their homes due to heavy flooding.
There is much to be outraged about besides nature’s utter indifference to human suffering. Brownfemipower notes the racism of the coverage of the flood:
Fox News: Mexico Floods Swamp 900,000 Homes; Disease Outbreak Feared
UPDATED Fox News: Thousands Depart Mexico Flood Zone Amid Disease Fears, Reported Looting
CNN: Devastating floods prompt outbreak fears in Mexico
MSNbc: Headline news:Teacher arrested after allegedly fleeing with boy (scroll down and down and down some more, and there nestled between sports and politics, is a small little link announcing “Mexico state 80 submerged”
ABCnews: Headline News: “Teacher Arrested In Mexico” World news section: Nothing
Detroit Free Press: Mexicans flee as region floods: Infectious waterborne diseases could surface
AP: Mexico Fears Disease Outbreak From Flood
Bloomber.com:Mexico’s Red Cross Is Preparing for Disease in Flooded Tabasco
This should surprise no one; I remember how, in the wake of Katrina, conservatives were more angry that people were looting than the fact that there were corpses floating in the street, and the threat of even temporary price controls to keep people from dying of dehydration sent many a free market cheerleader straight to the fainting couch. That the majority of victims were black drove so much of the casual cruelty towards survivors.
Another point of outrage: The U.S. is still only pledging $300,000 in aid. Hell, that’s weak even if our only concern was a sincere one about disease, since making sure every refugee from the flood has proper medical attention is going to cost a hell of a lot more than $300,000. Of course, the disease thing is mostly racist scare-mongering, barely taken seriously by the people who engage in it.
That the U.S. is trying to get away with a number that’s as low as possible while still looking like our government gives a shit isn’t much of a surprise, for BushCo, it’s SOP. After reading Naomi Klein’s The Shock Doctrine, I have reason to believe that this stinginess is about more than basic stinginess, too. Free market capitalists pray for natural disasters and catastrophes in our environment, because when people are down, you can control them better and make sure they don’t agitate for economic systems that help the working class survive even as they keep the rich from hoarding more wealth than you can spend in a lifetime. (Watch this video for the general gist of the argument.) I’m not saying that there’s a special reason to put the screws to Mexico right now, but that it’s gotten to the point where the screws are put on first and questions are asked later. In the wake of disaster, there’s generally some way to rush in and rearrange things so the poor get screwed over and the rich get richer, and thus mitigating the disaster reduces the chance that such opportunities will present themselves. Like I said, SOP. And of course, stinginess in aid is now tied to pressures on developing countries to make up the difference by borrowing the money, putting them ever more at the mercy of free market scavengers.
With disasters like this, you can’t say they are directly caused by global warming, because any single weather incident has a multitude of causes, of which global warming is just one. That said, welcome to the future—we won’t be seeing less, but more incidents of extreme weather that displaces people and creates refugee crisises. And the standard way the wealthier world will respond is to skimp on the aid, encourage debt, and try to exploit the situations. I used to think of global warming denialists as coming from this position of valuing the oil-driven economy more than they cared about the disasters that await them, but now I realize it’s quite possible that denialists want those disasters as well.
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Setting aside the wacky, unsubstantiated conspiracy theories above, I thought I’d highlight this point:
Another point of outrage: The U.S. is still only pledging $300,000 in aid.
…. which is precisely $300,000 more than we’re obligated to pledge. It’s like giving a homeless guy a sandwich and having him complain that you haven’t given him a McMansion.
Shorter Observer:
“Empathy is for fags!”
Sounds to me like your favorite Fox News is the one most closely on the story.
Uhhh, no. Floods like this overwhelm sanitation facilities and sometimes hydraulically exhume buried corpses. Whatever water there is to drink has not gone through normal purification processes. To note that disease outbreaks are possible is neither racist (anybody can get sick) nor scare-mongering.
This morning, it was only briefly mentioned on CNN. This is our next door neighbor. IIRC Mexicans were more generous in helping out Katrina victims. Why aren’t we caring more? Is it because it’s in an area visited rarely by Americans?
…. which is precisely $300,000 more than we’re obligated to pledge. It’s like giving a homeless guy a sandwich and having him complain that you haven’t given him a McMansion.
Nice reductionist world there, foolserver!
Not that a refugee crisis EVER drove migration or illegal immigration, oh noes.
BTW, it would be interesting to do a google search on “tabasco factory Katrina” and “tabasco flooding” and see which had more press interest.
Observer, I hope you die of a waterborne disease spread to that Mexican produce you bought by displaced people needing aid and living in/shitting in the fields.
yup, no problem spending Billions tearing a country down, but spending a miniscule percentage of that building up a large trading partner when they need help, that’s ridiculous.
Yes, there is no legal obligation. However, that does not eliminate the moral obligation to help those who need assistance. Where are all those pundits who scream that America is a Christian nation now? Where’s walking a mile in their shoes, and giving not just the cloak off your back but the shirt as well?
…. which is precisely $300,000 more than we’re obligated to pledge. It’s like giving a homeless guy a sandwich and having him complain that you haven’t given him a McMansion.
(A) We’ve basically pledged 30 cents per person displaced. I know the housing market is bad right now, but I’m pretty sure you have to pay more than 30 cents for a McMansion these days.
(B) When your house catches on fire and you beg your neighbor to lend you his garden hose so you can keep it from spreading before the fire department arrives, don’t be surprised when he refuses. After all, he’s under no obligation to help you, and you’ll just increase his water bill by a few dollars, so why should he care if your house burns down?
Of course, the disease thing is mostly racist scare-mongering, barely taken seriously by the people who engage in it.
Wrong.
Waterborne diseases, spread through water or food, are a constant threat in even a non-flooded Mexican city, I’m sad to say. Even in a top hotel in Mexico City, an international conference of epidemiologists traced extreme stomach distress running through the venue to the Thursday buffet.
Even people who are careful an know a lot about protecting themselves in developing nations and who didn’t eat the street food or drink from fountains got sick because the sanitation levels are really that bad to start with. Water quality is on the radar in Mexico and the government is developing ways to deal with it that verge on heroic, but the infrastructure is still not quite there and the population pressures tend to rapidly outstrip all infrastructural initiatives.
Add this kind of flooding and the already serious disease threat that comprises a hefty portion of Mexico’s before-age-five mortality explodes beyond imagination.
I think you have to pay more than 30 cents for a sandwich, too.
The part that continues to infuriate me the most is that if we weren’t engaged in a homicidal misadventure in Iraq, we could damn well extend much more humanitarian aid — and not just to Mexico, but in places like Darfur, where they need the assistance of a “first-world” nation in a way that we can’t even begin to comprehend.
It’s not just global climate change that’s in play here. The wastrel, shortsighted selfishness of Bush, Cheney et. al. is costing the lives of thousands of human beings every damned day.
“Shining beacon on a hill” no longer.
That said, welcome to the future—we won’t be seeing less, but more incidents of extreme weather that displaces people and creates refugee crisises.
That’s one of the things that has so strongly affected my father (a former conservative, now liberal) being able to dialogue with his friends (some conservatives, now leaning on liberal fences.) Because even these blue-collar guys that he works with, who never liked Al Gore and scoffed at the concept that the world was getting warmer; are now able to see in very real terms the extreme weather that global warming actually produces. It’s heartening to me, at least, that people are starting to care; since I’m flat-out terrified at our government’s response to disaster.
Also, Observer, may you never fall on hard times, and be forced to endure the version of “charity” that occurs to people like you.
Even 60-something miles north of New Orleans and the coast, myself and many of my friends and family were stricken with colds, flus, and general crud-like illness for months after Katrina. We weren’t flooded, but the combination of the mass migration north and what my mom called “that stuff the wind stirred up” brought us illness. And that’s not even close to the weird parasitic infections some people on the coast showed up with…little tiny worms coming out of their skin. ::cringe::
So no, the disease thing isn’t so much racist as it is something that is going to happen, albeit probably unproportionately to poor people, AKA “the brown ones”.
Something just clicked for me while reading this thread…
As a long time player of the SimCity series (which provides a fascinating glimpse into the uses of government, the pressure of making correct policy decisions, the difficulty in balancing competing public needs, etc.), I just realized that this is basically what the “disaster republicans” and the “Free market capitalists” are trying to do: It’s like playing the IRL version of SimCity - only with real people being killed, maimed, and made homeless. What Fun! (for sick fucks…)
If you get excited by the profit potential of somebody else’s misfortune, do us all a favor and off yourself - you aren’t fit to live among the rest of us…
If you’re going to quote BFP, you really ought to link to her blog.
Oops, meant to. It was an accident. Don’t assume ill intent when Occam’s Razor dictates that it was likely to be a simple mistake. —Mod.
Several comments
1) As far as I know, black people suffered disproportionatly from Katrina’s ravages, but on the whole, white people suffered most in property and in lives losts. The kind of people who died was mostly elderly. The media certainly wants you to think that New Orleans was a black disaster. It makes Bush look not as bad to his racist base.
2) The thing I most resent about Naomi Klein’s popularity is that people who read her book thinks that disaster capitalism/shock doctrine is new or that it works. Actually, over the long run, it almost never works out for the people who tries this stuff. When it *does* work, it is because the perps have some measure of control over the system. Shock doctrines based on natural disasters and wars rarely work due to the chaotic results. Shock doctrines based on finance sometimes does work. Leading onto the next point…
3) The main reason that there is low reporting from Mexico, despite the media’s desire for schadenfruede is that the flooding potentially represents a major geopolitical event. Much or most of Mexico’s oil goes through Tabasco’s ports, and at least 20% of exports is shut down while the emergency proceeds. Moreover, the type of oil Tabasco pumps, as opposed to the off-shore oil in the Bay of Campeche (Canterel), is the favored light, sweet stuff that’s easy to refine and getting hard to find. The media wants to keep inflation expectations among the public manageable. They did this when Hurricane Gonu threatened the Persian Gulf and the floods that impacted Oman. Nothing new here, move along, and 52 days later, we have a mild reduction in stock from lost oil shipping (bottled up at Hormuz). We *will* feel the lost of Tabasco oil, as the flooding represents a near Katrina event wrt oil facilities…
While we’re at it, I bet Obs thinks that no one in Mexico has been impoverished by anything the US has done (like, say, destroying much of their agricultural sector by subsidized exports).
It would make more sense to focus on water sanitation rather than on disease, since it would address not only the possibility of an increase in water-borne illnesses but also would address the lack of potable water, thereby keeping the focus on those who are suffering.
I am very doubtful that the word disease was used to make us think of the suffering in Tabasco, but was instead used to sensationalize the idea that it could spread to us Americans and then we’d be infected by this “disease.” I find it interesting to think back on my time living in a border state, when the word Mexican was actually synonymous with being dirty and diseased. What a coincidence!
You forgot a few points.
George Bush caused this flooding! No particular reason, that’s just the way he is.
Free market capitalists want much more aid given so that they can sell more emergency goods for the rescue of the victims. Getting rich off of disaster is their cup of tea, kind of like Halliburton and war.
Calling Mexicans “Mexicans” is as racist as it gets.
I’m sure the U.S. will eventually give much more aid. We always do.
It would make more sense to focus on water sanitation rather than on disease, since it would address not only the possibility of an increase in water-borne illnesses but also would address the lack of potable water, thereby keeping the focus on those who are suffering.
I am very doubtful that the word disease was used to make us think of the suffering in Tabasco, but was instead used to sensationalize the idea that it could spread to us Americans and then we’d be infected by this “disease.” I find it interesting to think back on my time living in a border state, when the word Mexican was actually synonymous with being dirty and diseased. What a coincidence!
It would make more sense to focus on water sanitation rather than on disease, since it would address not only the possibility of an increase in water-borne illnesses but also would address the lack of potable water, thereby keeping the focus on those who are suffering.
I am very doubtful that the word disease was used to make us think of the suffering in Tabasco, but was instead used to sensationalize the idea that it could spread to us Americans and then we’d be infected by this “disease.” I find it interesting to think back on my time living in a border state, when the word Mexican was actually synonymous with being dirty and diseased. What a coincidence!
Setting aside the wacky, unsubstantiated conspiracy theories above
It’s a strong indicator that you’re slow-witted that you can’t tell the difference between “systematic analysis” and “conspiracy theory”. Maybe a few classes in learning how to reason and think might help?
Also, Observer, may you never fall on hard times, and be forced to endure the version of “charity” that occurs to people like you.
Why not? If it has to happen to someone, I hope it’s to an asshole like that who deserves karmic justice.
Sorry. That was a very good introduction for me on how a mod queue works, and I am now sufficiently embarrassed (but now armed with knowledge on how all this new-fangled technology works!).
*Slinks away.*
Not that it would matter if he did. The Army Corps of Engineers flat out admitted, with no argument whatsoever, that they were responsible for the flooding of New Orleans. But everything we need/ask for from the federal government is still looked upon as a request for “charity”, rather than the reparations which we are DUE.
And I guess you feel no one should help anyone unless they actually directly caused their plight — note the “your house is on fire” example given to Observer above. Your neighbor refusing loan of the hose will just say that, hey, he’s not the one who set your house on fire, so you can just step aside and watch it burn while he breaks out the marshmallows.
Sigh….there are just so many people who seem to think that life will NEVER go badly for them, that they’ll never be sick and need medical care their insurance won’t pay, they’ll never be affected by a natural disaster, their country’s economy will never collapse, they’ll never have to personally deal with war, etc. etc. etc. And, by extension, that people who experience misfortune and don’t have the resources to recover on their own are obviously defective or deserved it in some way. Well guess what — no matter who you are, how rich you are, how connected you are, life is still dreadfully unpredictable, and while odds are you’ll be okay there’s no guarantee: EXTREME MISFORTUNE CAN HAPPEN TO YOU TOO. I hate to wish misfortune on anyone, but part of me really wishes for that to be made painfully, personally clear to these people who have no sense of compassion.
When I think of how much money we spend on KILLING people halfway around the world (mostly civilians), compared to what we’re willing to spend to HELP people, it just makes me want to cry. It’s not like our leaders are making a choice of spending money in foreign countries or not, we spend plenty no matter what — it’s just a choice of HOW we want to spend the money.
Is the US media coverage really the result of rascism or is it just the fact that the media in any country tends to cover what’s going on within the borders? How well were the floods here in the UK in June and July covered by US media? How well were the floods in Uganda, Ghana and Sudan in September covered by US media?
Ms Kate, my point is that worrying only about disease instead of worrying about lives speak to a sense that Mexicans are “dirty” and not worth caring about as anything other than a potential source of infestation. Which is, I do believe, pretty damn racist. The headlines were all disease, very little “massive homeless crisis”. Which is telling. And of course there’s the telling hand-wringing about the out of control poor looting to keep themselves alive.
Amanda– I do believe that the people who blame the CIA for assassinating JFK claim they’re running “systematic analysis’ as well. Same for the 9/11 ‘Truth’ Movement. Pretty much every conspiracy nut finds evidence to justify his or her paranoid fantasies.
Er — what’s SOP stand for?
Understood, Amanda. There is a racist component in the sensationalized aspects of the reporting, sure. There is also a truth component to the explosive potential for waterborne disease pandemics.
Note that there are no calls for clean water shipments or humanitarian assistance with this aspect of the situation. There is also no analysis of how an increase in waterborne diseases can translate into a food poisoning crisis in the US, as these things do not remain contained to specific flooded areas and follow the refugee trails.
Though I suppose it’s not really so much a thoughtless system, but an intended one. Quoth Milton Friedman:
Quoth Observer:
DADvocate — I don’t have the cites at hand and no time to get them now, but you can look into it for yourself: You will find that the US record for relief contributions to other countries is abysmal, behind nearly everyone, including small, poor nations.
Mrs. Nice Guy
SOP = Standard Operating Procedure…
Fair enough, Ms Kate. The sensationalized coverage doesn’t do a thing to help actually slow down the spread of disease; it just increases the noise about immigration.
There is a racist component in the sensationalized aspects of the reporting, sure. There is also a truth component to the explosive potential for waterborne disease pandemics.
Well, the point is that, out of eight headlines quoted above, only two of them mention that people are even fleeing the flood zone, and the two that do state it as though the fleeing itself is a cause of disease, i.e. wherever there are Mexicans, there is disease. Cause; effect. The best you can say about that kind of coverage is that it reflects a kind of privileged perspective by which those dirty people should just keep their disease to themselves. Any hint of a homelessness crisis? Or, for that matter, the number of people likely to have died so far? Disease is part of the story, but not the only story.
Ms Kate,
As much as i don’t want to minimize the seriousness of food poisoning in the US in general (and I realize that you are absolutely correct that the possibility exists), I’m not sure if it is one of the first things that I would focus on while people are dying/homeless. Bringing everything back to how it affects the US seems to be just another way of shifting the focus off the people of Tabasco.
Well, disease IS a major concern whenever there is flooding, and has the capacity to kill more people than the floods, if untainted water isn’t available.
That’s not a racist message, that’s just biology. The bugs don’t care whether the Homo sapiens individual is white brown or black.
What’s racist , xenophobic, and typically stupid is ignoring the whole situation. We do it with all countries and individuals not immediately benefitting us.
“You will find that the US record for relief contributions to other countries is abysmal, behind nearly everyone, including small, poor nations.”
Not really. At least according to this,
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/01/05/MNGPEALB2B1.DTL
Cholera, dummies! And every other kind of diarrheal disease transmitted by drinking untreated sewage. This isn’t rocket science, folks - a lot of infants and even adults are at serious risk of death from water-borne disease in a flood zone without a safe water supply.
Observer, I assume that if you’re working in your front yard and accidently amputate a foot, you’ll be suitably grateful when your neighbor hands you a Band-aid, since he wasn’t obligated to help at all?
“…you’ll be suitably grateful when your neighbor hands you a Band-aid, since he wasn’t obligated to help at all?”
WTF? “Hand you a Band-Aid”? What kind of socialist crap is that?
Observer would be offend if his neighbor didn’t charge for the bandaid - and considering Observer’s plight if he amputated a foot, his neighbor
should- neigh MUST! - charge what the market will bear.Capitalism, baby!!!…
Young Feminist,
You are both correct and incorrect. Empathy is lacking here, seriously lacking, but empathy alone will not mobilize an apathetic people. The US is highly dependent on shipments of produce grown in Mexico and, as Shah8 tells us - oil from this region.
The more people realize this, the more likely aid will be forthcoming. The fewer people realize this, the more likely they are to just chalk it up to yet another foreign bunch of “dirty” “overbreeding” “those people” “living where they shouldn’t” getting their due for having the gall to exist. Never assume that charity and aid are selfless acts - they very rarely are for individuals and are almost never so for larger units of social organization.
Is the US media coverage really the result of rascism or is it just the fact that the media in any country tends to cover what’s going on within the borders? How well were the floods here in the UK in June and July covered by US media? How well were the floods in Uganda, Ghana and Sudan in September covered by US media?
You may want to check a map, Ole: the US does not share a border with the UK. Nor does it share a border with Uganda, Ghana or the Sudan.
However, the US does share a border with Mexico. Our economy is very involved with Mexico’s economy. A lot of our produce come from Mexico.
Massive floods in Mexico are very much our problem, just as massive floods in Canada would be, if only because of the geographic closeness. Would people in London ignore massive flooding in Scotland because, hey, it’s not their problem?
“Would people in London ignore massive flooding in Scotland because, hey, it’s not their problem?”
If Observer lived in London, he would ignore flooding in Scotland. That’s just how he rolls…
Amanda– Obviously, the response to disasters is going to rely upon the ideas lying around. A flood isn’t going to cause a spring of new notions. What you’ve stated is a truism, and then you turn around and try to use it to denigrate capitalism, which is the greatest poverty-reduction system in the history of the world.
Re: Neighbor. If a neighbor provided help, I would obviously insist on repaying him the value of what he gave me. Mexico will never repay any help; as a country, it is unwilling to even prevent people from committing a felony by illegally entering the country. One of its biggest exports to us is criminals. Some neighbor.
Scotland analogy: I’m not saying that London would stand idly by. What I am saying is that it wouldn’t be *obligated* to do anything. London can obviously help if it chooses to, but it is not obligated. Nor is the US obligated to help Mexico; it may do so out of compassion, or if it is in its self-interest, but the option is theirs. I’m surprised such a position is so controversial among a blog full of people who argued that Saddam-era human rights atrocities “weren’t our problem”, and not only were we not obligated to help, we shouldn’t bother.
“I’m surprised such a position is so controversial among a blog full of people who argued that Saddam-era human rights atrocities “weren’t our problem”, and not only were we not obligated to help, we shouldn’t bother.”
If GWB had wanted to actually HELP, that would have been worthy of discussion and possible action - if we had the capability to help.
As it is, in the case of Iraq, it was as if our neighbor and his wife were fighting - then we got the brilliant idea to get rid of the husband and take his place - now the wife and the kids are fighting us instead of each other.
Oh, and we thought we could rob the place while we were over there…
(”help” at no time figured into anything we wanted to do in Iraq. As many have said before, if there was oil in Darfur, we’d have already been there for years by now…)
Just to jump in- There are plenty of reasons why the Mexican government’s response to illegal immigration isn’t as effective as you would like it. Not caring about illegal immigration is not that reason.
While in the hypothetical situation given, you might want to repay your neighbor for his or her help, this shouldn’t affect your neighbor’s willingness to help you in the first place. It’s our moral responsibility to help others in need, regardless of whether or not preventing widespread homelessness, displacement, starvation, and disease will benefit us personally. So, even though we’re not legally obligated to help, we’re morally obligated to do so. And we shouldn’t care about whether or not Mexico can ever repay us, because doing what’s right is more important than receiving gratitude for it..
The reason natural disaster relief attracts so many supporters here and the Iraq War doesn’t may have something to do with the fact that the Iraq War was a solution that caused an even worse problem than it purported to fix. The argument was never that we shouldn’t care or do something about Saddam’s atrocities, only that we shouldn’t fight a costly, ineffective war over it. There were plenty of alternatives that were never considered by the administration, probably because the original rationale behind the war had precious little to do with human rights.
If a neighbor provided help, I would obviously insist on repaying him the value of what he gave me. Mexico will never repay any help; as a country, it is unwilling to even prevent people from committing a felony by illegally entering the country. One of its biggest exports to us is criminals.
Really?
I hope you don’t own a car from GM, Ford or Chrysler — it was probably made in Mexico.
Check all of your produce before you buy it — it was probably grown in Mexico. And if it’s from California, it was picked by migrant workers, most of whom are from Mexico and many of whom are here illegally. No more fruits or veggies for you, because you’re getting them from Mexicans. And if you’re all worried about employing criminals, you’ll have to skip produce from Colorado, too — they cracked down on illegal workers and now have actual prisoners do the agricultural work. If you’re so scrupulous that you don’t want criminals touching your produce, make sure it’s not from Colorado.
Oh, and make sure you never buy any products from Tyson Chicken ever again — they’ve been caught using illegal workers multiple times and even placed orders with coyotes specifying how many they wanted and what age range.
But, hey, I guess it’s okay for US companies to use illegal workers in the US as long as you keep getting your cheap produce and poultry, right? They just shouldn’t expect anything for doing our dirty work.
Mnemosyne, Observer doesn’t eat “fruits and veggies”.
No Real Man, which Observer obviously is due to his total lack of compassion, would ever eat anything besides meat and (maybe) potatoes. And we all know potatoes come from Idaho…
In related news, Bush vetoed a bill that would provide funding for various Engineer Corps projects to fix water systems around the nation.
“…Bush vetoed a bill that would provide funding for various Engineer Corps projects to fix water systems around the nation.”
Thank GOD somebody is minding the American fiscal store!
…well, except for that whole $1-trillion Iraq thing. Maybe we can write that off as research or something…
No Real Man, which Observer obviously is due to his total lack of compassion, would ever eat anything besides meat and (maybe) potatoes.
He can keep the potatoes, but he’s gonna have to cut out the beef if he’s so worried about border crossings. When we’re importing over 4,000 head of cattle from Mexico every day, chances are that steak or burger Observer is eating originated in Mexico.
I guess he’ll have to go breathatarian.
Observer: Mexico will never repay any help; as a country, it is unwilling to even prevent people from committing a felony by illegally entering the country. One of its biggest exports to us is
criminalsdirt cheap, criminally exploited labor, so the corporations who supply your food and housing can make huge profits, so the native working class can afford these essentials even though the dollar is collapsing, and the investing class can wallow in ever-increasing wealth.Fixed that for you! The idea that illegal Mexican laborers are unfairly taking advantage of the U.S.A. rather than the other way around is absolutely moronic.
Observer: Mexico will never repay any help; as a country, it is unwilling to even prevent people from committing a felony by illegally entering the country. One of its biggest exports to us is
criminalsdirt cheap, criminally exploited labor, so the corporations who supply your food and housing can make huge profits, so the native working class can afford these essentials even though the dollar is collapsing, and the investing class can wallow in ever-increasing wealth.Fixed that for you! The idea that illegal Mexican laborers are unfairly taking advantage of the U.S.A. rather than the other way around is absolutely moronic.
Some of the ground in this thread has been covered before . . .
Well, let me give you an illustration: Suppose my neighbor’s home catches fire, and I have a length of garden hose 400 or 500 feet away. If he can take my garden hose and connect it up with his hydrant, I may help him to put out his fire. Now, what do I do? I don’t say to him before that operation, “Neighbor, my garden hose cost me $15; you have to pay me $15 for it.”–Franklin Delano Roosevelt
“nature’s utter indifference to human suffering”
As if nature had consciousness, which it doesn’t.
Kiernan– Empirically, that’s false. If Mexican immigrants were in fact exploited, then they wouldn’t come here to work. Rather, they can illegally take jobs, then impose the costs on Americans as externalities. It is a variant of the free rider/tragedy of the commons problem.
“If Mexican immigrants were in fact exploited, then they wouldn’t come here to work.”
Observer, what universe do YOU live in?
Has it ever occurred to you that many/most workers (”legal” or not, American or Mexican) are exploited? That for a Mexican immigrant the choice might be between being exploited here or being exploited worse at home?
The reality many people face is made up not of good choices vs. bad - often the choice is between bad and worse…
Dude, you gotta get out more often…
Wow, Garuda, what a great point. I don’t think that would have occurred to any of us without you. Thank goodness you were here to insist on literalism in literary devices… you think this is a real compliment, don’t you?
(seriously, did you mean to be that condescending or are you actually trying to get at something?)
Observer. No it bloody ISN’T a free rider problem. It just isn’t. These words actually have meanings, you know. Mathematatical meanings. I racked my brain for ten mintues trying to think how you could model illegal immigration as a collective action issue and all I could come up with is that you view the entire workforce of the USA as a giant trade union. Which… power to the people, comrade, and all that, but your model just isn’t realistic.
Mathematatical…
snert. I type bad when I’m cranky.
As the Blasted Captcha is about to remind me no doubt.
“Rather, they can illegally take jobs, then impose the costs on Americans as externalities.”
I love Observer’s twisted image of immigrant workers sneaking into America and then boldly stealing the jobs of Americans - while conveniently forgetting the company owner who pays so little he can’t get anyone else to take the job, or the farmer who wants their crop picked as cheaply as possible, or the construction company who wants to pay barely over minimum wage, or the estate owner who wants their garden tended and lawns mowed for half or less what an American worker would charge.
Yep, it’s really convenient when the poor exploited immigrant workers shoulder the entire blame for the grievous harm they do America by coming here and doing jobs we won’t do for the pay offered. Damn them for doing just what we want!!!…
1. Undocumented immigration is NOT a felony: it is not even a misdomeanor; it is not a crime at all. It may be “illegal” in being a civil infraction for which the immigrant can be deported, but that is distinct from being a crime.
2. Does ANYBODY here know ANYTHING about free market theory? On one side here we have Amanda, who uses support of free markets as proof of sociopathic intent, and on the other side is Observer, who calls people willing to work at hard labor for subminimum wages 12 hours a day a “free rider / tragedy of the commons problem”. Mexicans who hang out at the Home Depot parking lot offering to carry heavy stuff and build things for cash are free riders?!? WTF?!?
For the record:
It is not “free markets” that cause injustice, it is the underlying system of property distribution. It is entirely possible to create free market systems with far more equal and empowering results than our current corporate feudalist system. To blame free markets in general and to go along with the assumption the free markets are synonomous with corporate feudalism is to cede a powerful, useful, and mostly correct idea to the status quo power structure.
Does ANYBODY here know ANYTHING about free market theory?
I know how the free market is supposed to work in theory: workers trade their labor to employers in exchange for compensation. Wages should go up and down depending on how many workers are available to do a particular job. In theory, if an employer has a hard time finding workers for a particular job at a specific wage, the wage for that job should rise until it gets to a level that someone will freely accept the job.
However, that’s not how our “free market” works. Right now, our “free market” keeps wages at an artificially low level by bringing in people who will work for sub-minimum wages at levels that free workers can’t afford to accept.
The free market is a very nice theory, as long as everyone on both sides plays fair. That ain’t what’s happening in our “free market,” though.
Dana,
Notwithstanding your complete lack of familiarity with the long and well documented history of associating disease with immigrants in racist anti-immigrant rhetoric, it bears asking why there is such a consistency in using the language of a feared outbreak of disease amongst Mexicans rather than using the usual discussion of water treatment and contaminated water…
To be fair Decnavda, I think Amanda was a pretty strong history of being pro markets that are actually free (i.e. with proper government regulation so as to prevent what you so aptly call corporate feudalism) as opposed to “free markets” as commonly conceived of in the US. Sometimes the line between snarky use of conventional terminology and not gets blurry though, especially if you’re not fully versed in the entire pandagonian oeuvre.
As an aside, Canada has pledged $500k, and will provide experts if requested, which while rather low, comes from a country with roughly 10% of the population of the US…
has, even. I think I better get back to my paper…
Observer,
Because of course it is impossible to even consider that working long hours for bellow minimum wage with no job security or benefits in potentially unsafe conditions in the U.S. might be a preferable option, while still exploitative, than barely scraping out a marginal existence in one of the slums ringing Mexico’s major cities.
Of course neither does it bear on this choice between bad and worse the effects of NAFTA in destroying the livelihoods of a vast number of peasant and semi-peasant agricultural producers in southern Mexico and the subsequent flood of rural outmigration into an urbanized Mexican economy well and truly unable to absorb the influx…
To blame free markets in general and to go along with the assumption the free markets are synonomous with corporate feudalism is to cede a powerful, useful, and mostly correct idea to the status quo power structure.
Nobody blames free markets per se. Free markets are a tool, an extremely useful tool, one which helps foster free societies and produces great wealth.
But they are just that - a tool. Not a god.
I, for one, don’t rail against free markets. I rail against the worship of free markets.
“Mexico will never repay any help; as a country, it is unwilling to even prevent people from committing a felony by illegally entering the country. One of its biggest exports to us is criminals. Some neighbor.”
Observer:
I hope one of these so-called “criminals” serves you unsanitary water while performing an underpaid job that you’re “too good for.” And then steals your place in line at the ER getting free medical treatment living off of your hard-earned tax dollar.
Please leave this thread and fall off a building.
Love,
Dr. Granger
Dr. Granger, I salute you.
For the record, these disasters are not caused by global warming. They are caused by governmental corruption that results in mismanagement of global warming related weather events.
Shorter version: Global warming + corrupt governments = displaced, injured, and dead people.
Observer: I’m no economist, but according to the CIA World Factbook, Mexico’s exports are $250 BILLION dollars, and the U.S. receives 77.4% of that, meaning 193 BILLION dollars. If criminals are “one of their biggest exports”, I want to know, fuckhead, what exactly are those criminals worth?
I’m also not a proctologist, but I see you are a perfect asshole.
You observe, but you cannot think, therefore you are useless.