Comments on: Military standards: how low can we go? http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/10/12/military-standards-how-low-can-we-go/ Just another WordPress weblog Sun, 12 Feb 2012 14:50:14 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=1.5.1-alpha by: iice http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/10/12/military-standards-how-low-can-we-go/#comment-466083 Tue, 13 Nov 2007 13:29:43 +0000 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/10/12/military-standards-how-low-can-we-go/#comment-466083 This message is mainly for Pam, but anyone may resond to this. I'm a convicted felon (Class B Felony - Assault) and currently waiting to interview with a recruiting battalion commander to get a waiver. Since my release I've earned myself a Bachelor of Arts in Psychology and enrolled in a MA degree toward Mental Health/Education. Since my release, I have over 8 years of "professional" work experience - I don't work a rinky dink job. If I get into the military I will also undergoing a huge paycut. My intentions in joining are personal, but I will inform you of this ... it's specifically to remove stereotypes and test my own pre-defined discipline. Please explain to me why someone like myself would be detrimental to the armed forces. If anything, I have more credentials such as education and real-life (including urban street experience) that will make me an ideal candidate to fight in such a vague war as "the war on terror". To deny an "American" the right to serve their country is wrong. To indicate that people like myself do not have the ability to rise above or to be the same cut as "normal" citizen implicitly will make anyone doubt your moral ethics as a true "American". You're like the politicians picking political parties to align yourself to and not really serving the interest of the "American" people. Some people have it good and think they got there all on their own merits ... This message is mainly for Pam, but anyone may resond to this. I’m a convicted felon (Class B Felony - Assault) and currently waiting to interview with a recruiting battalion commander to get a waiver. Since my release I’ve earned myself a Bachelor of Arts in Psychology and enrolled in a MA degree toward Mental Health/Education. Since my release, I have over 8 years of “professional” work experience - I don’t work a rinky dink job. If I get into the military I will also undergoing a huge paycut. My intentions in joining are personal, but I will inform you of this … it’s specifically to remove stereotypes and test my own pre-defined discipline. Please explain to me why someone like myself would be detrimental to the armed forces. If anything, I have more credentials such as education and real-life (including urban street experience) that will make me an ideal candidate to fight in such a vague war as “the war on terror”. To deny an “American” the right to serve their country is wrong. To indicate that people like myself do not have the ability to rise above or to be the same cut as “normal” citizen implicitly will make anyone doubt your moral ethics as a true “American”. You’re like the politicians picking political parties to align yourself to and not really serving the interest of the “American” people.

Some people have it good and think they got there all on their own merits …

]]> by: mythago http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/10/12/military-standards-how-low-can-we-go/#comment-458158 Sat, 13 Oct 2007 14:55:11 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/10/12/military-standards-how-low-can-we-go/#comment-458158 I'm not really following the notion that it's OK to shit on the "cat-4s" Matt talks about because the military has an idiotic policy towards GLBTs. And you think none of those kids who sign up because the military will pay for your doctors are gay? I’m not really following the notion that it’s OK to shit on the “cat-4s” Matt talks about because the military has an idiotic policy towards GLBTs.

And you think none of those kids who sign up because the military will pay for your doctors are gay?

]]> by: drydock http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/10/12/military-standards-how-low-can-we-go/#comment-458099 Sat, 13 Oct 2007 09:25:41 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/10/12/military-standards-how-low-can-we-go/#comment-458099 While the military's policy is obviously homophobic and should be opposed, at this juncture in history with a lot of frightening war-mongering towards Iran happening the liberal/left should be organizing against military enlistment. Starve the war machine!!! Among blacks recruitment levels are down 58% since 2001-- a positive sign. Couldn't find a link but here's an excerpt from the Boston Globe: BOSTON GLOBE - African-Americans, whose longstanding relationship with the US military helped them prove their abilities and offered a way to get ahead, have turned away from the armed forces in record numbers since 2000, a period covering the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks and the start of the Iraq war. Defense Department statistics show the number of young black enlistees has fallen by more than 58 percent since fiscal year 2000. The Army in particular has been hit hard: In fiscal year 2000, according to the Pentagon statistics, more than 42,000 black men and women applied to enlist; in fiscal year 2005, the most recent for which a racial breakdown is available, just over 17,000 signed up. While the military’s policy is obviously homophobic and should be opposed, at this juncture in history with a lot of frightening war-mongering towards Iran happening the liberal/left should be organizing against military enlistment. Starve the war machine!!!

Among blacks recruitment levels are down 58% since 2001– a positive sign. Couldn’t find a link but here’s an excerpt from the Boston Globe:

BOSTON GLOBE - African-Americans, whose longstanding relationship
with the US military helped them prove their abilities and offered a
way to get ahead, have turned away from the armed forces in record
numbers since 2000, a period covering the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist
attacks and the start of the Iraq war. Defense Department statistics
show the number of young black enlistees has fallen by more than 58
percent since fiscal year 2000. The Army in particular has been hit
hard: In fiscal year 2000, according to the Pentagon statistics, more
than 42,000 black men and women applied to enlist; in fiscal year
2005, the most recent for which a racial breakdown is available, just
over 17,000 signed up.

]]> by: witless chum http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/10/12/military-standards-how-low-can-we-go/#comment-458072 Sat, 13 Oct 2007 00:19:37 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/10/12/military-standards-how-low-can-we-go/#comment-458072 I'd tend to agree with Matt, along the lines that it comes off as more insulting to the category 4, as he says, soldiers when it's aiming for the lackbrains who keep 'Don't Ask Don't Tell' going. I'm also not at all sure these regulations were a good idea in the first place. Having a peacetime (especially) military as a place you can go and work yourself back into societies' good graces if you've fucked things up good in high school/the legal system seems to me like a good idea. It's certainly getting harder and harder for people who have a felony conviction to make it here in the "real world." The fact that they're willing to take people who need waivers in wartime but not peacetime seems to me a lot more insulting than anything Pam posted here. I’d tend to agree with Matt, along the lines that it comes off as more insulting to the category 4, as he says, soldiers when it’s aiming for the lackbrains who keep ‘Don’t Ask Don’t Tell’ going.

I’m also not at all sure these regulations were a good idea in the first place. Having a peacetime (especially) military as a place you can go and work yourself back into societies’ good graces if you’ve fucked things up good in high school/the legal system seems to me like a good idea. It’s certainly getting harder and harder for people who have a felony conviction to make it here in the “real world.”

The fact that they’re willing to take people who need waivers in wartime but not peacetime seems to me a lot more insulting than anything Pam posted here.

]]> by: Samantha Vimes http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/10/12/military-standards-how-low-can-we-go/#comment-458069 Fri, 12 Oct 2007 23:50:11 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/10/12/military-standards-how-low-can-we-go/#comment-458069 Seems like "the soldiers are dying for you/your freedoms" is an exact parallel to "Jesus died for your sins". I have a problem with both, in that I didn't believe I was in danger from Iraq or from a vengeful God. But those who are seriously insecure might be swayed. Seems like “the soldiers are dying for you/your freedoms” is an exact parallel to “Jesus died for your sins”. I have a problem with both, in that I didn’t believe I was in danger from Iraq or from a vengeful God. But those who are seriously insecure might be swayed.

]]> by: Meg Thornton http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/10/12/military-standards-how-low-can-we-go/#comment-458058 Fri, 12 Oct 2007 22:43:16 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/10/12/military-standards-how-low-can-we-go/#comment-458058 "I have only comparatively recently emerged from the United States army so that I am now of course in the radio-active reserve and, the usual jokes about the army aside, one of the many fine things one has to admit is the way that the army has carried the American democratic ideal to its logical conclusion in the sense that not only do they prohibit discrimination on the grounds of race, creed, and color, but also on the grounds of ability. [...] When Pete was only in the seventh grade he killed a cop He's real RA material, and he was glad to swap His flicknife and his old zip gun For a bayonet and a new M1 It makes a fella proud to be a soldier! [...] Now Ed flunked out of second grade, and never finished school He doesn't know a shelter half from an entrenching tool But he's going to be a big success He heads his class at OCS It makes a fella proud to be a soldier" (Preamble and lyrics from <i>"It Makes a Fellow Proud To Be A Soldier"</i> by Tom Lehrer - recorded in 1959) Not much has changed in 48 years, has it? “I have only comparatively recently emerged from the United States army so that I am now of course in the radio-active reserve and, the usual jokes about the army aside, one of the many fine things one has to admit is the way that the army has carried the American democratic ideal to its logical conclusion in the sense that not only do they prohibit discrimination on the grounds of race, creed, and color, but also on the grounds of ability.

[…]

When Pete was only in the seventh grade he killed a cop
He’s real RA material, and he was glad to swap
His flicknife and his old zip gun
For a bayonet and a new M1
It makes a fella proud to be a soldier!

[…]

Now Ed flunked out of second grade, and never finished school
He doesn’t know a shelter half from an entrenching tool
But he’s going to be a big success
He heads his class at OCS
It makes a fella proud to be a soldier”

(Preamble and lyrics from “It Makes a Fellow Proud To Be A Soldier” by Tom Lehrer - recorded in 1959)

Not much has changed in 48 years, has it?

]]> by: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/10/12/military-standards-how-low-can-we-go/#comment-458023 Fri, 12 Oct 2007 19:41:57 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/10/12/military-standards-how-low-can-we-go/#comment-458023 You know, I understand the rhetorical effect of "look at how low they're willing to lower the standards while keeping perfectly capable and willing queers out of the military" but I can't go along with it. It's not that I object to equal treatement under the law for queers, but that as an opponent of this war, I don't want to make it easier for the machinery of warfare to continue working. We shouldn't be fighting to get into an unjust war. You know, I understand the rhetorical effect of “look at how low they’re willing to lower the standards while keeping perfectly capable and willing queers out of the military” but I can’t go along with it. It’s not that I object to equal treatement under the law for queers, but that as an opponent of this war, I don’t want to make it easier for the machinery of warfare to continue working.

We shouldn’t be fighting to get into an unjust war.

]]> by: Bitter Scribe http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/10/12/military-standards-how-low-can-we-go/#comment-458020 Fri, 12 Oct 2007 19:16:52 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/10/12/military-standards-how-low-can-we-go/#comment-458020 Matt: You had me up until "...they're dying for you in the desert..." They're not dying for ME, or for anyone else who opposed this debacle from the get-go. They're dying because a fool named George W. Bush and a lot of other fools around him can't admit they made a mistake. I certainly don't look down on people for serving in the military <i>per se, </i>and I daresay most of the people who post here feel the same way. At the same time, the military is experiencing personnel problems as a direct result of this utterly pointless, asinine war. There's a grim sort of justice in that situation. Matt: You had me up until “…they’re dying for you in the desert…”

They’re not dying for ME, or for anyone else who opposed this debacle from the get-go. They’re dying because a fool named George W. Bush and a lot of other fools around him can’t admit they made a mistake.

I certainly don’t look down on people for serving in the military per se, and I daresay most of the people who post here feel the same way. At the same time, the military is experiencing personnel problems as a direct result of this utterly pointless, asinine war. There’s a grim sort of justice in that situation.

]]> by: teac http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/10/12/military-standards-how-low-can-we-go/#comment-458009 Fri, 12 Oct 2007 17:41:06 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/10/12/military-standards-how-low-can-we-go/#comment-458009 "And they joined the infantry to put their lives on the line out of a sense of patriotism." And that's different from gays, lesbians, and bisexuals who want to serve . . . exactly how? "So how about you cut them some slack. . ." Right back atcha, pal. “And they joined the infantry to put their lives on the line out of a sense of patriotism.”

And that’s different from gays, lesbians, and bisexuals who want to serve . . . exactly how?

“So how about you cut them some slack. . .”

Right back atcha, pal.

]]> by: Matt http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/10/12/military-standards-how-low-can-we-go/#comment-458007 Fri, 12 Oct 2007 17:31:14 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/10/12/military-standards-how-low-can-we-go/#comment-458007 As an enlisted e-4 infantryman in the Illinois Guard, a professional employee, a student at Northwestern, and a liberal....I'm a bit insulted by the post. I went through basic at Ft. Benning with a solid number of "cat-4's"...guys who needed some form of waiver to get in, mostly because of low asvab scores or lack of high school diploma. (Note that a high percentage of these guys go into the infantry because the army limits their access to other job codes or mos's). The archetype for the cat-4 was an 18yr old kid from a low-income broken family who joined because he was desperate for some foothold to gain towards middle-class comfort. The dirtbags don't make it through basic training...drill sergeants see to that. The guys who graduate are dedicated and professional at what they've learned. My point? These are generally the kids that this country has failed. We haven't given them a damn thing but poverty and a non-support structured family. And they joined the infantry to put their lives on the line out of a sense of patriotism. So how about you cut them some slack and let the fact that they're dying for you in the desert make up for the fact that they might not do well on standardized tests or that they maybe had to get a GED. As an enlisted e-4 infantryman in the Illinois Guard, a professional employee, a student at Northwestern, and a liberal….I’m a bit insulted by the post. I went through basic at Ft. Benning with a solid number of “cat-4’s”…guys who needed some form of waiver to get in, mostly because of low asvab scores or lack of high school diploma. (Note that a high percentage of these guys go into the infantry because the army limits their access to other job codes or mos’s).

The archetype for the cat-4 was an 18yr old kid from a low-income broken family who joined because he was desperate for some foothold to gain towards middle-class comfort. The dirtbags don’t make it through basic training…drill sergeants see to that. The guys who graduate are dedicated and professional at what they’ve learned.

My point? These are generally the kids that this country has failed. We haven’t given them a damn thing but poverty and a non-support structured family. And they joined the infantry to put their lives on the line out of a sense of patriotism. So how about you cut them some slack and let the fact that they’re dying for you in the desert make up for the fact that they might not do well on standardized tests or that they maybe had to get a GED.

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