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	<title>Comments on: Why it&#8217;s too much trouble to educate girls past the 5th grade</title>
	<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/29/why-its-too-much-trouble-to-educate-girls-past-the-5th-grade/</link>
	<description>Just another WordPress weblog</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 23:53:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Harukami</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/29/why-its-too-much-trouble-to-educate-girls-past-the-5th-grade/#comment-455494</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 15:33:44 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/29/why-its-too-much-trouble-to-educate-girls-past-the-5th-grade/#comment-455494</guid>
					<description>Catgirl: You're kidding, right? Heavy bleeding for six out of ten day periods during my teenage years, down to heavy bleeding for two out of five now that I'm older.

BEEN to doctors, had tests run: I'm totally normal, I just am a heavy bleeder. They happen. These people exist!

If I were you, I'd talk to &lt;i&gt;your&lt;/i&gt; doctor and get educated on the fact that heavy bleeders exist and it won't actually kill you. Because uh. You're not bleeding out a vein here. The fact that you think you can die from this is really amazing to me. Please educate yourself before arguing further, instead of advising everyone who has it that they're medical abnormalities. Some will be, and you're right that it can be a warning sign to check out that something MIGHT be wrong (as it can overlap symptom with other problems), but it is not a guarantee of a problem -- some people (many, to judge by personal experience, but that's not statistically sound!) are just like this.

Please educate yourself before talking further.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Catgirl: You&#8217;re kidding, right? Heavy bleeding for six out of ten day periods during my teenage years, down to heavy bleeding for two out of five now that I&#8217;m older.</p>
	<p>BEEN to doctors, had tests run: I&#8217;m totally normal, I just am a heavy bleeder. They happen. These people exist!</p>
	<p>If I were you, I&#8217;d talk to <i>your</i> doctor and get educated on the fact that heavy bleeders exist and it won&#8217;t actually kill you. Because uh. You&#8217;re not bleeding out a vein here. The fact that you think you can die from this is really amazing to me. Please educate yourself before arguing further, instead of advising everyone who has it that they&#8217;re medical abnormalities. Some will be, and you&#8217;re right that it can be a warning sign to check out that something MIGHT be wrong (as it can overlap symptom with other problems), but it is not a guarantee of a problem &#8212; some people (many, to judge by personal experience, but that&#8217;s not statistically sound!) are just like this.</p>
	<p>Please educate yourself before talking further.
</p>
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		<title>by: hp</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/29/why-its-too-much-trouble-to-educate-girls-past-the-5th-grade/#comment-455257</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Oct 2007 22:30:17 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/29/why-its-too-much-trouble-to-educate-girls-past-the-5th-grade/#comment-455257</guid>
					<description>I'm not even sure how active this thread is at this point . . . 

Catgirl: here's the thing. When it's recommended that you call the doctor if you're using more than 1 pad an hour, what's inherent in that recommendation is that you overflowing a pad an hour is UNUSUAL for your body. Because if it's unusual, it's an indication of something, quite possibly a early miscarriage (which you want checked out because if it's incomplete you may want to/need to have a D&amp;amp;C). 

When it's exactly how it occurs every four weeks, doctors shrug and tell you you're a heavy bleeder. A doctor may recommend HBC, but it doesn't always work as advertised for heavy bleeders. As long as you're not presenting with other symptoms of blood loss (dizziness, headache, etc) they will assign it to the realm of &quot;normal.&quot; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m not even sure how active this thread is at this point . . . </p>
	<p>Catgirl: here&#8217;s the thing. When it&#8217;s recommended that you call the doctor if you&#8217;re using more than 1 pad an hour, what&#8217;s inherent in that recommendation is that you overflowing a pad an hour is UNUSUAL for your body. Because if it&#8217;s unusual, it&#8217;s an indication of something, quite possibly a early miscarriage (which you want checked out because if it&#8217;s incomplete you may want to/need to have a D&amp;C). </p>
	<p>When it&#8217;s exactly how it occurs every four weeks, doctors shrug and tell you you&#8217;re a heavy bleeder. A doctor may recommend HBC, but it doesn&#8217;t always work as advertised for heavy bleeders. As long as you&#8217;re not presenting with other symptoms of blood loss (dizziness, headache, etc) they will assign it to the realm of &#8220;normal.&#8221;
</p>
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		<title>by: hp</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/29/why-its-too-much-trouble-to-educate-girls-past-the-5th-grade/#comment-455255</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Oct 2007 22:20:23 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/29/why-its-too-much-trouble-to-educate-girls-past-the-5th-grade/#comment-455255</guid>
					<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;This is NOT a situation that can be going on for a few days - you’d loose to much blood. Of course you can decide to change a pad without soaking through it even every 5 minutes, but that’s not the issue.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Ha. And it's a situation where if you go to an OB/GYN about it, they'll either use it as a excuse to do some testing and get some money from your insurance before declaring you &quot;normal&quot; and &quot;over-reacting,&quot; or they'll simply tell you to stop &quot;over-reacting&quot; and diagnosing your ills via the Internet. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<blockquote><p>This is NOT a situation that can be going on for a few days - you’d loose to much blood. Of course you can decide to change a pad without soaking through it even every 5 minutes, but that’s not the issue.</p></blockquote>
	<p>Ha. And it&#8217;s a situation where if you go to an OB/GYN about it, they&#8217;ll either use it as a excuse to do some testing and get some money from your insurance before declaring you &#8220;normal&#8221; and &#8220;over-reacting,&#8221; or they&#8217;ll simply tell you to stop &#8220;over-reacting&#8221; and diagnosing your ills via the Internet.
</p>
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		<title>by: mathpants</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/29/why-its-too-much-trouble-to-educate-girls-past-the-5th-grade/#comment-455166</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Oct 2007 17:15:37 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/29/why-its-too-much-trouble-to-educate-girls-past-the-5th-grade/#comment-455166</guid>
					<description>Chet,

I'd watch with the &quot;nearly universal trait&quot; up there. There are a good deal of us who understand a bit more of what we are doing and what we are NOT doing when we attempt to model some weak reflection of some semblance of &quot;the real world.&quot; Sometimes the results are pretty awesome. Often they're crap. Unfortunately, tenure committees don't always make that distinction. 

To the rest of the thread; I humbly apologize for this epsiode of NerdFight and will shut up immediately.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Chet,</p>
	<p>I&#8217;d watch with the &#8220;nearly universal trait&#8221; up there. There are a good deal of us who understand a bit more of what we are doing and what we are NOT doing when we attempt to model some weak reflection of some semblance of &#8220;the real world.&#8221; Sometimes the results are pretty awesome. Often they&#8217;re crap. Unfortunately, tenure committees don&#8217;t always make that distinction. </p>
	<p>To the rest of the thread; I humbly apologize for this epsiode of NerdFight and will shut up immediately.
</p>
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		<title>by: mathpants</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/29/why-its-too-much-trouble-to-educate-girls-past-the-5th-grade/#comment-455165</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Oct 2007 17:09:31 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/29/why-its-too-much-trouble-to-educate-girls-past-the-5th-grade/#comment-455165</guid>
					<description>catgirl,

to derail well further:

I did alg geometry in an earlier life and still use a few of the tools now. If you haven't already, I strongly urge you to read &quot;Undergraduate Algebraic Geometry&quot; by Miles Reid. Despite its title, it's actually a pretty damn good explanation of what's actually going on behind all the weird abstract nonsense. He wrote it after getting frustrated with, in his words, &quot;students who did two semesters of Hartshorne and couldn't draw a fucking curve.&quot; I'm also a huge fan of anything Sturmfels writes on the subject (for some downright weird applications of algebraic geometry to phylogenetics, check out the book written by Bernd Sturmfels and Lior Pachter).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>catgirl,</p>
	<p>to derail well further:</p>
	<p>I did alg geometry in an earlier life and still use a few of the tools now. If you haven&#8217;t already, I strongly urge you to read &#8220;Undergraduate Algebraic Geometry&#8221; by Miles Reid. Despite its title, it&#8217;s actually a pretty damn good explanation of what&#8217;s actually going on behind all the weird abstract nonsense. He wrote it after getting frustrated with, in his words, &#8220;students who did two semesters of Hartshorne and couldn&#8217;t draw a fucking curve.&#8221; I&#8217;m also a huge fan of anything Sturmfels writes on the subject (for some downright weird applications of algebraic geometry to phylogenetics, check out the book written by Bernd Sturmfels and Lior Pachter).
</p>
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		<title>by: Cultural Catgirl</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/29/why-its-too-much-trouble-to-educate-girls-past-the-5th-grade/#comment-455162</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Oct 2007 16:27:06 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/29/why-its-too-much-trouble-to-educate-girls-past-the-5th-grade/#comment-455162</guid>
					<description>mathpants:
Your area of research sounds very interesting. Personally I'm now actively interested in pure math (algebraic geometry and representation theory to be specific) but I have a kink for all biology related stuff. I don't know too much about the ways they apply mathematics to biology, and it's always really interesting to hear something about it.  
Regarding your point about explaining stuff to non-mathematicians - actually some consider your ability to explain stuff to an amateur a test of how good you understand it yourself. However you can only explain it up to some point, and then maybe some people are just not interested in explaining, despite being able to.
Good luck to you too. It's probably about time I stop derailing the thread (btw on the topic I think that the ban on backpacks is pretty stupid simply because you can easily hide a weapon beneath your clothes):-)
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>mathpants:<br />
Your area of research sounds very interesting. Personally I&#8217;m now actively interested in pure math (algebraic geometry and representation theory to be specific) but I have a kink for all biology related stuff. I don&#8217;t know too much about the ways they apply mathematics to biology, and it&#8217;s always really interesting to hear something about it.<br />
Regarding your point about explaining stuff to non-mathematicians - actually some consider your ability to explain stuff to an amateur a test of how good you understand it yourself. However you can only explain it up to some point, and then maybe some people are just not interested in explaining, despite being able to.<br />
Good luck to you too. It&#8217;s probably about time I stop derailing the thread (btw on the topic I think that the ban on backpacks is pretty stupid simply because you can easily hide a weapon beneath your clothes):-)
</p>
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		<title>by: Cultural Catgirl</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/29/why-its-too-much-trouble-to-educate-girls-past-the-5th-grade/#comment-455157</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Oct 2007 16:08:00 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/29/why-its-too-much-trouble-to-educate-girls-past-the-5th-grade/#comment-455157</guid>
					<description>What you said, and this discussion has absolutely nothing to do with mathematics or mathematical proof.
Your attempt to delegitimize my claims by pointing to some strange analogy with the gap between mathematicians and other scientists is childish at best.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What you said, and this discussion has absolutely nothing to do with mathematics or mathematical proof.<br />
Your attempt to delegitimize my claims by pointing to some strange analogy with the gap between mathematicians and other scientists is childish at best.
</p>
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		<title>by: Chet</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/29/why-its-too-much-trouble-to-educate-girls-past-the-5th-grade/#comment-455152</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Oct 2007 15:44:55 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/29/why-its-too-much-trouble-to-educate-girls-past-the-5th-grade/#comment-455152</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;it’s amazing&lt;/i&gt;

No, it's not. It's obvious in the way you refuse to abandon your &lt;i&gt;a priori&lt;/i&gt; conclusions in the face of empiric contradiction.

It's a nearly universal trait of mathematicians that once they prove something on paper, they almost always ignore the myriad ways in which the real world proves them wrong.

Here, you're doing it now. You've previously concluded that there's no way normal menstruation could be so heavy, therefore any woman who menstruates so heavily must be abnormal, despite a weight of medical opinions to the contrary. &lt;i&gt;You've already assumed it;&lt;/i&gt; therefore, nothing so profane as &lt;i&gt;real-world observation&lt;/i&gt; could possibly change your mind.

It's the gulf between mathematicians and scientists. It's the reason so many of you are creationists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>it’s amazing</i></p>
	<p>No, it&#8217;s not. It&#8217;s obvious in the way you refuse to abandon your <i>a priori</i> conclusions in the face of empiric contradiction.</p>
	<p>It&#8217;s a nearly universal trait of mathematicians that once they prove something on paper, they almost always ignore the myriad ways in which the real world proves them wrong.</p>
	<p>Here, you&#8217;re doing it now. You&#8217;ve previously concluded that there&#8217;s no way normal menstruation could be so heavy, therefore any woman who menstruates so heavily must be abnormal, despite a weight of medical opinions to the contrary. <i>You&#8217;ve already assumed it;</i> therefore, nothing so profane as <i>real-world observation</i> could possibly change your mind.</p>
	<p>It&#8217;s the gulf between mathematicians and scientists. It&#8217;s the reason so many of you are creationists.
</p>
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		<title>by: mathpants</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/29/why-its-too-much-trouble-to-educate-girls-past-the-5th-grade/#comment-455099</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Oct 2007 12:28:14 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/29/why-its-too-much-trouble-to-educate-girls-past-the-5th-grade/#comment-455099</guid>
					<description>6) in my defense, I'm actually almost ecstatically happy with &quot;my profs&quot;: my advisor, my co-advisor in the CS department, and two teaching faculty who trained me to teach the undergrads are all wonderful human beings. The rest of the lot are less than ideal, but thankfully they have no effect on my career arc and thus can function merely as cautionary examples.

My area of research is &quot;computational topology.&quot; In theory, this involves trying to make educated guesses at various homological features of unknown 
(generally high-dimensional) spaces from a rough point sample. The
immediate applications are to image cleanup and compression. The more pie-in-the-sky applications (but the ones that bring in big grant money) are to a variety of biological problems, in which the data is so fuzzy that more geometric data analysis techniques aren't really all that helpful; the hope is that more holistic descriptors from topology (like number of clumps, local dimension, periodicity or not) might help make sense from chaos.

Inevitably, the work involves talking to a lot of CS and Bio people and attempting to explain some math to them. It's perhaps this that makes me generally a bit shirty with the attitudes of most pure math folks towards communication: they may well have fancy definitions memorized, but if they can't communicate the basics of an idea to a smart but not technically informed person, they aren't really worth shit in the greater scheme.

5) good lord, I hope you're kidding in your response. The difference between reasoning abstractly about Stieffel-Whitney classes and shit that affects real people should be apparent; one comes with a great deal more accountability attached.
Have you gotten to the point yet where you walk into a crowd of people and start trying to define who should be allowed to vote, working only from first principles? That kind of shit blends in well at your better faculty lunches.

As for the rest, whatever. I really don't think the studies you read, or indeed the terms you use, are well-defined enough to use in order to dismiss &quot;anecdotal experiences.&quot; Perhaps the symptoms that some people feel monthly and describe quite articulately are caused by the phases of the moon. And perhaps they may have done as much research into the topic as you have.

Nonetheless, peace. Good luck with your program. 



</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>6) in my defense, I&#8217;m actually almost ecstatically happy with &#8220;my profs&#8221;: my advisor, my co-advisor in the CS department, and two teaching faculty who trained me to teach the undergrads are all wonderful human beings. The rest of the lot are less than ideal, but thankfully they have no effect on my career arc and thus can function merely as cautionary examples.</p>
	<p>My area of research is &#8220;computational topology.&#8221; In theory, this involves trying to make educated guesses at various homological features of unknown<br />
(generally high-dimensional) spaces from a rough point sample. The<br />
immediate applications are to image cleanup and compression. The more pie-in-the-sky applications (but the ones that bring in big grant money) are to a variety of biological problems, in which the data is so fuzzy that more geometric data analysis techniques aren&#8217;t really all that helpful; the hope is that more holistic descriptors from topology (like number of clumps, local dimension, periodicity or not) might help make sense from chaos.</p>
	<p>Inevitably, the work involves talking to a lot of CS and Bio people and attempting to explain some math to them. It&#8217;s perhaps this that makes me generally a bit shirty with the attitudes of most pure math folks towards communication: they may well have fancy definitions memorized, but if they can&#8217;t communicate the basics of an idea to a smart but not technically informed person, they aren&#8217;t really worth shit in the greater scheme.</p>
	<p>5) good lord, I hope you&#8217;re kidding in your response. The difference between reasoning abstractly about Stieffel-Whitney classes and shit that affects real people should be apparent; one comes with a great deal more accountability attached.<br />
Have you gotten to the point yet where you walk into a crowd of people and start trying to define who should be allowed to vote, working only from first principles? That kind of shit blends in well at your better faculty lunches.</p>
	<p>As for the rest, whatever. I really don&#8217;t think the studies you read, or indeed the terms you use, are well-defined enough to use in order to dismiss &#8220;anecdotal experiences.&#8221; Perhaps the symptoms that some people feel monthly and describe quite articulately are caused by the phases of the moon. And perhaps they may have done as much research into the topic as you have.</p>
	<p>Nonetheless, peace. Good luck with your program.
</p>
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		<title>by: Cultural Catgirl</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/29/why-its-too-much-trouble-to-educate-girls-past-the-5th-grade/#comment-455076</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Oct 2007 11:09:43 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/29/why-its-too-much-trouble-to-educate-girls-past-the-5th-grade/#comment-455076</guid>
					<description>1)My first abstraction is &quot;I haven't seen the proof that PMS psychological symptoms are caused by premenstrual hormonal changes&quot;. The comments on this site don't prove this abstraction to be wrong, they just list anecdotal accounts of personal experiences, which I never claimed to be nonexistent. They do nothing whatsoever to prove that the symptoms in question are caused by physiological changes in ones body.
2)My other abstraction is &quot;&lt;i&gt;Most&lt;/i&gt; women don't have to change a pad every hour for a few days. Such a situation if persistent is usually indicative of some underlying medical problem&quot;. It's easy to check this claim - google &quot;exessive menstrual bleeding&quot; and read the definition and the follow up. This claim is similar to saying &quot;most people aren't clinically depressed&quot; - and a bunch of intelligent people on some site coming out and saying &quot;but I usually don't want to get out of bed on most days&quot; doesn't refute this claim.
3)I'm not insulted, I'm amused :-) 
4)BTW, personally I always thought the existence of PMS claims to be &lt;i&gt;antifeminist&lt;/i&gt;, as I explained in one of my previous posts.
5)&lt;i&gt;why would anyone ever be offended by simple abstract reasoning in a noble quest for a good definition?&lt;/i&gt; Why, indeed? I don't understand your sarcasm.
6)Oh, so you're just pissed off with your profs ;-) i knew your conjecture about my status wasn't meant as compliment :-( BTW what's your area of research?
7) This site is so damn slow I have to type my responses in notepad! 
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>1)My first abstraction is &#8220;I haven&#8217;t seen the proof that PMS psychological symptoms are caused by premenstrual hormonal changes&#8221;. The comments on this site don&#8217;t prove this abstraction to be wrong, they just list anecdotal accounts of personal experiences, which I never claimed to be nonexistent. They do nothing whatsoever to prove that the symptoms in question are caused by physiological changes in ones body.<br />
2)My other abstraction is &#8220;<i>Most</i> women don&#8217;t have to change a pad every hour for a few days. Such a situation if persistent is usually indicative of some underlying medical problem&#8221;. It&#8217;s easy to check this claim - google &#8220;exessive menstrual bleeding&#8221; and read the definition and the follow up. This claim is similar to saying &#8220;most people aren&#8217;t clinically depressed&#8221; - and a bunch of intelligent people on some site coming out and saying &#8220;but I usually don&#8217;t want to get out of bed on most days&#8221; doesn&#8217;t refute this claim.<br />
3)I&#8217;m not insulted, I&#8217;m amused <img src='http://pandagon.blogsome.com/wp-images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
4)BTW, personally I always thought the existence of PMS claims to be <i>antifeminist</i>, as I explained in one of my previous posts.<br />
5)<i>why would anyone ever be offended by simple abstract reasoning in a noble quest for a good definition?</i> Why, indeed? I don&#8217;t understand your sarcasm.<br />
6)Oh, so you&#8217;re just pissed off with your profs <img src='http://pandagon.blogsome.com/wp-images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' />  i knew your conjecture about my status wasn&#8217;t meant as compliment <img src='http://pandagon.blogsome.com/wp-images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':-(' class='wp-smiley' />  BTW what&#8217;s your area of research?<br />
7) This site is so damn slow I have to type my responses in notepad!
</p>
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