Ha, this is the most awesome unscientific-but-damning study I’ve read in awhile: Gawker kept track of Pitchfork’s record reviews and found that they have more men named Mark writing reviews that women of any name. (Via.) And I had just sent off this article about how girls get subtly and not-subtly dissuaded from pursuing science at a young age to a blogger I thought could take that article very well. I can’t speak as well on that, but I can talk about the structural sexism of Insufferable Music Snobbery quite well. Because I’ll bet, if you ask them, the editors at Pitchfork would make all sorts of noises about how they want women to write more record reviews, but there’s not enough women out there to do it. Which I suspect is true to a degree, though it’s probably also true to a degree that sexist assumptions about women’s lack of taste also factor in. As a wee IMS, though, I encountered many difficulties that have run me off of any pretensions to being a professional IMS, and I imagine my experiences are pretty common in this regard, which does in fact whittle down the pool.
Myths That Run Women Out Of Insufferable Music Snobbery
1) Women are born with bad taste and need men to set them straight. Therefore a woman with good taste probably got it from her boyfriend. I’ve mentioned this noxiously specific stereotype before, so now I want to address why it has a lot of staying power: Confirmation bias. Hey, our lovers have influence on our taste. If anyone’s worth dating for any stretch of time, he/she is going to be able to turn you on to new bands and new songs and show you stuff in a new light. And if a guy teaches a woman about some stuff, then that becomes a confirmation of the “women get their taste from men” stereotype. But because there’s no converse stereotype, a man’s acquisition of taste from women doesn’t get noticed—hell, most people probably assume straightaway that he gathered that knowledge himself in a female-free fashion. Women can internalize this, too. It took me awhile to get over feeling weird that my high school boyfriend got me into Bowie, even though I in turn got him into the Pixies, until I realized I was dealing with an internalized stereotype and that it wasn’t as one-sided as I assumed it was. But I’d gone so long with the assumption that I didn’t have native good taste that it was too late to really get into writing record reviews.
2) Women don’t have enough role models, part one. IMSes might, by the time they’re 30, mostly be cantankerous farts who have learned to cultivate their basic nerdiness into a veneer of cynical sexiness (the geek glasses look has been perennially popular since Elvis Costello for a reason), but deep down inside we all have romantic dreams of rock-and-roll excessiveness. Sure, there’s nothing wrong with having a giant and impressive record collection or a vast knowledge of obscure punk bands, but we all know that we’re going to our graves having never even run the risk of dying in a bathtub of overdose and while we know this is a good thing, it’s also a tad unromantic. Part of the traditional rock star allure, of course, is that the place of women in it is prone. Even though the 60s ended long ago, the fantasies of having groupie culture be cool again never completely fade. I suspect that the return of the guitar hero has as much to do with this as the video game does (which is J Train’s learned opinion). A percentage of male IMSes secretly (or not, depending on how drunk you get them) long for the days of hair metal, when the stage was all men and women were all spandex and hairspray, and hope through a properly ironic resurgence of guitar-heavy rock, they can get those days for themselves.
In addition, every female musician knows that the “women should be prone, not on stage rocking out” attitude means that you get routinely harassed at shows. Be conventionally attractive? Get it for that. Don’t be? Get it worse for that. Obviously, some weather through, but it has an effect on gender parity.
3) Women don’t have enough role models, part two. Then there’s the insidious tradition of shoving women off to roles where their talents can be downplayed, which is why women gravitate towards singing so often—it’s a “safe” role in no small part because it’s easy to write off singers as if they aren’t real musicians. This is improving dramatically in the past 15 years, though the late 90s rock had a “fuck those bitches” backlash. Maybe the next generation of IMSes will have more women, now that younger girls now have more female musicians to point to as evidence that women totally belong in the inner circle.
4) Women get less wiggle room. I’ve often joked in the past on Insufferable Music Snob columns about the habit of reworking guilty pleasures into revivals. The hair metal thing is an attempt to do that ironically. Alt country is sincere. But ironic or sincere, reworking music that was once treated as a guilty pleasure into a hip new thing is a male privilege most of the time. If a woman likes something that’s usually considered corny, well refer to point #1—it’s assumed that her bad taste is a leftover from the days before some dude got a hold of her and set her straight. I’ve seen women who have exquisite IMS credentials get teased for having some guilty pleasure and if they tried to defend it, got brusquely dismissed. I cannot tell you the number of bands I’ve liked over the years that I only was able to be out about after getting some man to back me up.
5) The preponderance of wankfest music. It’s hard to say if this has much influence on Pitchfork, who I mock a lot, but deserves credit for being blatant pop whores who reject music that’s got a tendency to show off chops without doing a damn thing to entertain the audience, which is, for whatever reason, a kind of music scene that is even more male-dominated than most. Austin, for instance, has a really nightmarish stoner rock scene, which I will admit strangled my hopes of being any kind of even amateur record reviewer in the cradle. I used to write occasional show reviews for a local zine a number of years ago, and they liked that and started asking me to review records. But stoner rock (which is about 95% male, for whatever reason) was a big deal then, and pretty much everything they sent me to review was in the genre. And so my reviews amounted to, “This sucks and I fell asleep listening to it,” which is not even fun-nasty, so basically we all gave up hope of moving me into that section of zine writing.
It could be meaningless, but I imagine that if you write reviews for Pitchfork, you have to start somewhere and work your way up, and the brutal process of having to listen to album after album of men showing off their chops to other men with music that distinctly leaves you out of the loop (for reasons that are hard to articulate) could probably pick a lot of women out of the process. Or not, and maybe my experience in this regard was unique.
101 Responses to “But women attract bears who will then EAT the records”
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I won’t pretend to know much at all about music, beyond the very basic “I know what I like,” (classical and country, which may or may not be a weird combination), but other than the women as scenery for videos I had never given the first thought to whether music critics are somehow being taken seriously, or not, based upon their sex.
It’s always possible that I’ve missed an already existing article of yours, but I’d be interested in knowing what fields of endeavour you don’t think are laden with “structural sexism.”
In my experience, the only place nerdier than richdork media for reviews is the onion av club, which is also dominated by guys, all of whom also seem to really like lots of dull, wordy bands.
Is it falling into a stereotype to suggest women generally like music because it’s got a good kick to it or it sounds nice, whereas men need to analyse it sociologically to some extent? Maybe that’s why there are less female reviewers, because they don’t feel the need to fit every band/song/album into the history of rock n’roll in terms of who it’s been influenced by or what it means in a greater context.
And note, I said ‘generally’. Obviously it varies from person to person.
Dana, I think that you don’t know this about music because you’re not obsessed with it, but the trend is very real. how many women have ever been, say, buyers for amoeba records? (this involves accurately rating and paying for the used albums people bring into the vast music stores in California). if you told me it was 30 to 1 I would be modestly surprised they let a chick do it ever. a woman doing that job would be constantly sniped at and second-guessed. there’s seriously a lot of cock-swinging bullshit in the world of IMSnobbery. the point about being rated unqualified to re-valorize the cheesy is spot on. I can remember arguing about the greatness of Van Halen with this smug jerk whose assumption was that I only liked them because I was lame, rather than that I was going through a phase when I suddenly wanted to hear runnin’ with the devil rather than another can song (and I love can.) a guy in that situation has a lot more room to be overbearing and just insist: no, man, warrant was awesome. you just ‘don’t get it.’
Erm….I kind of like stoner rock. But then, I also love lots of the artists on Def Jux, so I guess I have a high tolerance for wankery.
I actually did work in rock journalism for quite a long time, and I’m a woman. I didn’t notice any of my editors discounting my opinions because I was female. Some of the musicians I interviewed behaved as if I was just a groupie with a job, but once you make it clear that you’re not there to distribute blow jobs, it’s not so bad.
I mainly stopped because it had ceased to be fun. I’d say that it’s actually far, far better to be a music fan than to work in the music industry for two main reasons. The first is like that quote that says people who love politics or sausage should never watch either one being made. Same for the music industry. It’s really a pretty sickening biz.
The second reason is that you really have to be careful of what you wish for. I found that when what I loved became a job, and I couldn’t just enjoy a concert but had to worry about turning in an 800-word, wittily-written, insightful review by 10am the next morning, that it sort of lost the fun.
Anyway, if you still want to be a rock journalist, there’s nothing stopping you. From my experience, if you want to be a rock journalist, you write some reviews of new music or interview a local band you know, write an article, and turn it in to whatever publication you want. I started small, with a local music fanzine (eventually becoming the music editor), and built up to the local weeklies. Over time I made relationships with record label PR folks and band managers. Then I started submitting pieces to more national places. Like I said, if the writing is good, most editors won’t give a crap if you’re male, female, or other.
As far as submitting unsolicited pieces, you’ll get turned down a lot, but that’s part of it.
Rockit- it is falling into a stereotype that sounds just a bit “Men are from Mars- Women are from Venus”.
I know plenty of guys who like crap music cause “it’s got a good kick to it or it sounds nice” and plenty of women who I can spend hours obsessing over the complexities of “dull, wordy bands” (me included- though dull is not how I’d describe well written hyper-verbose lyrics)
“Is it falling into a stereotype to suggest women generally like music because it’s got a good kick to it or it sounds nice, whereas men need to analyse it sociologically to some extent? Maybe that’s why there are less female reviewers, because they don’t feel the need to fit every band/song/album into the history of rock n’roll in terms of who it’s been influenced by or what it means in a greater context.”
I feel like that is falling into a stereotype, yes. Women love to deconstruct popular culture, and that includes the music we listen to.
I’m afraid I might be contributing to the problem a bit. I don’t write music reviews, but when I post movie reviews on other sites I tend to use a man’s name. So people will read the review, you know?
Oh, and the only place that was actually rude and unpleasant was Juxtapoz magazine. What a bunch of pretentious fucksticks.
It’s always possible that I’ve missed an already existing article of yours, but I’d be interested in knowing what fields of endeavour you don’t think are laden with “structural sexism.”
Nothing. Next, Dana acts like it’s a conspiracy theory when Amanda says, “The earth’s atmosphere wraps around the entire planet.”
When I met my wife she noticed how many albums I had with smal women playing guitars. As it was I didn’t have that many, but since I had everything by Susanne Vega and everything by Lisa Ekdahl, I guess she was going volume over diversity.
I pulled out my many albums featuring guys with guitars, thus avoiding the topic of how I ended up with these two women with guitars in my collection.
Susanne Vega was introduced to me in high school by a girl a carried a crush on for 2 years. Lisa Ekdahl was introduced to my via my actual high school sweetheart.
As it happened my one and only time of infidelity was when I was with the Susanne Vega girl, when I was dating the Lisa Ekdahl girl.
So when my then girlfriend, now wife, asked me about little women with guitars, I avoided getting into the whole old crush, sweetheart, infidelity thing.
the result is that even today I have an irrational sense of embarrassment when I think about the two artists.
My wife turned me on to faith no more, Bowie, Destiny’s Child and countless other bands, while I am guilty for introducing her to Nick Cave and Leonard Cohen.
Dana — in answer to #
I’d be interested in knowing what fields of endeavour you don’t think are laden with “structural sexism.”
— none of them. The WORLD is laden with structural sexism.
Also, I never tried to submit my stuff to Pitchfork, because it didn’t exist when I was doing this. Wouldn’t surprise me if they weren’t exactly like the Juxtapoz crew, though. They have that same whiff of “desperate geek who shores up his own ego by being a raging shithead” vibe.
Belle, I have found that by being blatantly willing to throw sexism in guys’ faces, you can often get “qualified” to re-valorize the cheesy. Classic example: My ex used to give me shit over liking Prince (who was presumably too femmey or whatever), until I pointed out that one of his favorite Ween songs is actually a reworked Prince cover. Ween had proven me right, and I wasn’t afraid to bring that up every time he started to get all anxious masculinity on me about music.
In related news:
Rumble, I don’t want to be a rock journalist, for exactly the reasons you state. Dealing with musicians is a real crapshoot, going to shows is exhausting, etc. It can’t be bad for your career to sleep around with musicians (also, fun), so I can’t say that I’m surprised if some slow-witted musicians tend to think it comes with the territory.
Amanda wrote:
No, actually, it was an entirely serious question. It wasn’t meant to be some sort of trap or “gotcha” moment.
Well, yeah. That’s the end result of the thought process that starts with the video game. “You know, I bet if I could do this for real, I’d have to duck to avoid the pussy that gets thrown at me. Mom, can I have an Ibanez for Christmas?”
I think that the music wankery that exists in places like P4K (which, I admit, is the first thing I read every morning) has less in common with the casual music listener or concert-goer than the D&D-playing, sci-fi-quoting, con-attending geek. That community also skews strongly male.
my god. as a musician and music enthusiast, this article hits home and basically confirms everything I’ve had to deal with my entire life as a female playing in bands, djing and buying records, and instruments. The snobbery one must swim through to get the guitar you want is insane! Not to mention that I’ve always wanted to write for a music magazine of ANY sort and basically not being able to because of the sausagefest thats hogging everything. I could go on but i shouldn’t.. i’m a very bitter musician. But I’ll leave you with this :
http://painfulreminder.blogspot.com/2007/07/almighty-man-and-his-imaculate-music.html
This is where I fall. When it comes to music, I mostly feel it; music is for dancing to, or for setting a mood (relaxing, hard rock for the gym, upbeat background noise for doing chores around the house). Music is not my life, something I get an ego trip from (”I’m so smart! And so deep!”) discussing, it’s just something I enjoy. And, conversely, every boyfriend I’ve had has been an IMS to a degree (some worse than others), who have condescendingly mocked me for my “horrible taste” or “lack of interest” in music. I was particularly sensitive to it when I was in my teens; I had not quite grasped the exact concept of the “pretentious asshat”; luckily, by the time I was 22, I rather easily called by boyfriend on it, and asked him to check his damned ego at the door.
The irony of course being that (much like men’s attitudes towards sex ultimately creating a culture that discourages women to have sex with them), this snotty attitude about music discourages men from having honest, bonding discussions about shared tastes with girlfriends (or potential girlfriends). If they started talking from a place that wasn’t condescending and sexist, they might have an interesting discussion, learn something, discover a new band, appreciate something from a different angle; instead, they cut off the exchange from the beginning. I know that whenever I’m at a bar and some guy (boyfriend or potential) starts up on some musical tirade, I inwardly roll my eyes and head off for another drink - from experience I know that that kind of conversation holds no interest for me, as I do not like to be told that I’m stupid, and have bad taste. It tends to make me churlish.
This is where I fall. When it comes to music, I mostly feel it; music is for dancing to, or for setting a mood (relaxing, hard rock for the gym, upbeat background noise for doing chores around the house). Music is not my life, something I get an ego trip from (”I’m so smart! And so deep!”) discussing, it’s just something I enjoy. And, conversely, every boyfriend I’ve had has been an IMS to a degree (some worse than others), who have condescendingly mocked me for my “horrible taste” or “lack of interest” in music. I was particularly sensitive to it when I was in my teens; I had not quite grasped the exact concept of the “pretentious asshat”; luckily, by the time I was 22, I rather easily called by boyfriend on it, and asked him to check his damned ego at the door.
The irony of course being that (much like men’s attitudes towards sex ultimately creating a culture that discourages women to have sex with them), this snotty attitude about music discourages men from having honest, bonding discussions about shared tastes with girlfriends (or potential girlfriends). If they started talking from a place that wasn’t condescending and sexist, they might have an interesting discussion, learn something, discover a new band, appreciate something from a different angle; instead, they cut off the exchange from the beginning. I know that whenever I’m at a bar and some guy (boyfriend or potential) starts up on some musical tirade, I inwardly roll my eyes and head off for another drink - from experience I know that that kind of conversation holds no interest for me, as I do not like to be told that I’m stupid, and have bad taste.
Well, there are plenty of reasons not to pursue music writing as a career, as Rumblelizard and Amanda have pointed out–nearly went down that path myself quite a few years ago, before realizing that I simply don’t have the social skills or endurance to handle endless networking.
Just have to add that a newer (maybe not new, but definitely more prevalent) obstacle to reviewing music is the sniper attitude that outlets like Pitchfork and Vice Magazine seem to nurture–reviews that fall into “this sucks” smartassery, mostly using guilt by association insults, as in: ________ sucks, sounds like a bad Journey/hair metal/Lilith Fair/NSYNC/prog rock/VH-1 song.
It’s a pet peeve of mine in music reviews when someone just throws out an insult comparing an artist to one they hate as shorthand for “I don’t like this”, on the assumption that everyone who’s anyone out there would simply chuckle and agree.
I think this dynamic helps create the “ironic” hipster revivals that most of us rightly hate, as it becomes a badge of honor to defend a hated genre from straw IMS bullies.
As I’ve said here a bunch of times, I’m an unironic fan of both hair metal and stoner rock, but I can also appreciate why they’re the butts of so much mockery. They deserve it–but there are plenty of smart, tasteful men and women who appreciate dumb music (and Dungeons and Dragons) in non campy ways.
I must be in touch with my feminine side Amanda, because I go along with my wife’s assessment of music; “You either like it or you don’t.” Now she is a trained Opera singer so I respect her view.
So I have to say you missed a golden opportunity here to point out that women don’t write music reviews because they know life is too short for time to be wasted in telling everyone why they should like what we ourseves like.
I always want to yell at the patronising jerks who tell me why I should like the latest cool band, “I’ll make my own mind up, knobhead!”
As for girld being dissuaded from science at an early age, I can’t speak for America but in Britain girls tend to lose interest in science the moment they learn Margaret Thatcher was a scientist.
Amanda - I apologize, I’ve sent a comment in three times now - I didn’t get a “your comment is in moderation” notice, so I thought something was wonky with my connection. You can delete two of ‘em if you want.
Ian:
“women don’t write music reviews because they know life is too short for time to be wasted in telling everyone why they should like what we ourseves like.
I always want to yell at the patronising jerks who tell me why I should like the latest cool band, “I’ll make my own mind up, knobhead!”
Wait a minute. A GOOD review isn’t a waste of time, nor is it telling someone what they should or shouldn’t like. A good review is like any good piece of writing–someone talking about something in a way that’s idiosynchratic, interesting, insightful, articulate, and inspiring. Inspiring is the key word, because I can’t tell you how many times I’ve discovered a favorite band because a good reviewer hit the right note.
I do like stoner rock, just not stoner rock fans. Hee
That Venn diagram is the best thing I will see today. Even though IMS-Pro™ is a sexist nightmare, I would suggest it could say something good about those not included- it is possibel that they don’t obsess over entirely trivial narcissistic wank, desiring to set the tenor of public opinion about an entirely subjective thing. You could see a little Patriarchy there- that is what the Patriarchy does , therefore Pitchfork gets staffed with dudes. The P tells people what to like and how to act, and creates little sociopaths trying to control other people’s opinions.
On that note, has anyone been to our website, Song of the Day?
#1 is so huge it dwarfs all of the rest of the list combined. I bet if the women on this board collected a nickel for each time they’ve heard someone say, “Oh, wow, [band X] is really cool — who turned you on to them?” we could totally start that feminist separatist utopia on some island somewhere and still have enough money left over for a really good sound system for the colony’s rec room.
The first is like that quote that says people who love politics or sausage should never watch either one being made. Same for the music industry. It’s really a pretty sickening biz.
That goes for the entire entertainment industry. The creative vision of multi-talented individuals working on shows created by and filtered through 2-3 layers of salesmen, MBAs, and lawyers.
I hope a distaste for stoner rock isn’t gendered.
I’m joining Dr. Locrian in objecting; critics get to pick which new bands make it and they get to set the terms in which they get talked about. Pitchfork makes bands’ careers. That’s why it sucks that there are so few women there.
I had never even heard Bjork or Leonard Cohen before I met my current girlfriend/partner. Nuff said about disconfirming number one.
I’ll still send Erin a nickel if I can visit said Utopia occasionally. Don’t abandon me here with my unworty brethren.
I’m listening to an indie channel on Live365 right now. The guy has good taste, but I feel like writing to him and asking if he has ever heard of any female musicians. Sometimes I really miss women’s voices, and I know they’re out there. This guy (who programmed the channel I’m listening to) is a major supporter of contemporary music but can’t even make a little space for Rilo Kiley or Tegan & Sarah.
Diverse voices = diverse choices. I want lots of different kinds of people writing about and playing music, not just the same guy (named Mark) with the same damned nerd glasses. I’ve got space for him, and a certain amount of respect from time to time, but his limitations are obvious.
Look at it from a male perspective. For many (hererosexual especially) men the only conversations they have with each other, other then “I’d tap that” and “pass the cheese whiz” are about music. Its literally the only way many men have to discuss emotion. Women on the other hand talk about emotions more.
Here is the big problem.
if the music is edgy and not established yet. Women simply don’t have a voice. In such situation, it is often about confirmation and obscure nods. The groupie aspect is pronounce.
.. well that and women has no taste..
(the serious comment is true. There aren’t enough women doing things that are different and can talk about it in “credible” manner. Credible being the boys can understand.
This is a simple chicken and egg problem. the boys in the group can’t understand what a girl is talking, And she has no market. And since there is no girl talking, women doesn’t understand “guy” music. … etc etc.)
about women not having a taste… heh.
stoner metal … ?
Oh, well if I can’t have musical taste expertise because I’ve inadvertently swapped it for the ability to cry and talk about my feelings, then that’s all right. My feeling is that that statement is bullshit.
Was thinking about this a bit and it occurred to me, wasn’t this a big factor in the zine revolution around the early nineties? The sense that women could construct their own personal spaces where they could approach music and culture on their own terms?
The reason I ask is that most of the publications/websites mentioned above started out small and homemade. The question should possibly be why, over the course of the internet revolution there aren’t more music sites/magazines started up and controlled by women. Like why isn’t there a musical version of say, Pandagon?
And lastly, I like nastiness in rock writing as long as it’s witty and focused on a deserving target. Buddyhead used to do that really well, although Pitchfork and too many others don’t manage it because they’re essentially a basis for annoying grad students to pontifcate to others rather than an honest look at the band themselves.
Somehow I bypassed developing my taste in music from guys. It’s most likely due to having an older sister who was a)a musician and b)really into music — all genres, pretty early on in her teens. Sure, there have been a few guys that turned me onto some great bands, but as I got into college and beyond the tables turned. It was me going to shows, making mixed tapes and spreading the word about music I loved.
I currently call myself a music geek (some might even say IMS, I sure hope not) and I love to share bands that I have discovered with friends. In all honesty, my friends that are the most interested in new music and going to shows are guys. Could that be part of the reason I’ve always had a lot of male friends? When I find women who share my passion, I’m thrilled!
All this being said, I can’t imagine working in the industry. Whether it’s Pitchfork or a record label, the testosterone factor must be unbearable.
And of course there can be a competitiveness about rock journalism that’s dorky in a very masculine way. THESE are the Top 100 Albums Ever, etc., etc. Hear me elaborate on why and observe why my taste is inherently better and more obscure than yours!
Somehow I bypassed developing my taste in music from guys. It’s most likely due to having an older sister who was a)a musician and b)really into music — all genres, pretty early on in her teens. Sure, there have been a few guys that turned me onto some great bands, but as I got into college and beyond the tables turned. It was me going to shows, making mixed tapes and spreading the word about music I loved.
I currently call myself a music geek (some might even say IMS, I sure hope not) and I love to share bands that I have discovered with friends. In all honesty, my friends that are the most interested in new music and going to shows are guys. Could that be part of the reason I’ve always had a lot of male friends? When I find women who share my passion, I’m thrilled!
All this being said, I can’t imagine working in the industry. Whether it’s Pitchfork or a record label, the testosterone factor must be unbearable at times. All this even further confirms reasons for supporting things like “Rock n Roll Camp for Girls”.
Well riot grrl music was a part of the zine revolution, Rockit.
Wow, thanks Ms. Marcotte! Even more good reasons to loathe insufferable hipster snobs! (Not that I needed any.)
well in a sort of literal sense there is
http://pandasongs.blogspot.com/
but that’s not what you meant
another good post, and i especially love the graphic - did you make that or is it from somewhere? it’d be a great t-shirt
Well Amanda, I have tried to comment twice and post times I encountered a hardware glitch.
So I will make this brief: you are an IMS extraordinaire, and you SHOULD write about music for the Chronicle. Go pitch something to Raoul Hernandez, and he will probably be thrilled.
If I were the IMS you are, I would write for them all the time.
By not pursuing writing about music, a passion that you have (music), you are letting the bastards get you down.
Also, music critics have never made or broken a band. Trust me on this one.
Hm, where’s this article you speak of about girls being dissuaded from science? I’d like to read that one.
Best Gawker comment ever.
Are you sure about that?
Who could ever forget the charming reaction the Go-Go’s got during their prime? While I remember major publications at least tried to be somewhat respectful, everyone else (”everyone else” being almost exclusively male) seemed to rip them to shreds. That attitude trickled down to Dudekind : It’s just chick music (I guess akin to “chick lit” or “chick flicks”)! They can’t play worth a fuck, they’re just chicks! Their music is just dinky crap, I like serious music! Etc. etc. While the Go-go’s had good chart success, the Conventional Wisdom was that they were just a throw-away novelty act.
Speaking of the Austin Chronicle, I read their review of Nellie McKay’s last album, Pretty Little Head. While it received good reviews elsewhere, the asshole male reviewer at the Chronicle savaged it. I suspect it’s because Nellie McKay has not only the temerity to be a woman, but one of those feminist bitches, too!
You want to know the latest pigeonholing trick from Dudekind? Despite the actual paucity of piano players in popular music of either sex, “woman + piano = OMG TORI AMOS CLONE!” That’s the crap Regina Spektor is having to put up now. Somehow “white dude + electric guitar” doesn’t seem to elicit a similarly cynical reaction, despite the fact that every other hipster dude owns a guitar, regardless of whether he knows the first thing about music.
David-
It’s from Diesel Sweeties, whose author also comes up with one brilliant t-shirt design after another. The diagram is from his “indie snob” collection.
Wow, thanks Ms. Marcotte! Even more good reasons to loathe insufferable hipster snobs!
We’re not all bad. For one thing, contrary to a lot of haters’ fondest hopes, we actually love music and can get you turned onto some good stuff.
My first thought, as a feminist, was what are the structures that keep women from reviewing music? My second thought, as a citizen of the world, was how can we apply those structure to men so that there are WAY less music reviewers? Because music reviewers, particularly on pitchfork, are the most obnoxious people I can think of and if you accidentally invite one to a party they will clear it out in record time by lecturing on the various virtues of each and every Replacements album.
Just saying.
The world needs another IMS writer (male or female) like it needs another folk singer, or a hole in one’s head or htf the song goes.
This discussion’s really tripping me out. I really came from a hippie background. I picked up tons of music recs from women. I actually started listening to shellac because a friend of mine recommended them to me. I picked up a lot of musical ideas from women. I actually am good friends with a female IMS, so all of this gendering is really bizarre to me. And, I know men with worst tastes than women that I know. I know women and men with no taste but that’s because they don’t listen to music at all.
I am still puzzled by people who don’t have a solid grasp on music. It’s just around us all of the time. You can’t avoid it unless you don’t use any sort of media. It’s such an enlightening and relaxing form. But, then again, this is coming from someone who listens to music for hours everyday. I just find it strange for people to not have an opinion about music, much in the same way that people don’t have political opinions (not that anyone on this site would know about that). This might also be an unexpected consequence of my want to explain all things around me.
Also, that austin stoner/ dream music scene’s really rad. Whenever the city’s name comes up with a psych project or dream project, I always check it out because I’m almost always assured quality. But, I agree, a lot of dudes listen to stoner metal and they are really irritating; they are always trying to impose their taste on other people. I’ve never been into that.
Pitchfork’s also run by the kids that all good music fans hate, the ones who try to find some justification in life by championing stuff and encouraging a bullshit lifestyle. Also, their reviews are terribly written. They are too long and tangential. The site would be far more tolerable if they weren’t trying to be so cool, hyper-literate, witty, and snobby in everything that they do. I know that the young kids like it, but it’s irritating. Also, AV club is run by a lot of dudes, but I think that they’d be open to more women unlike pitchfork.
I don’t buy for a moment that there’s a conspiratorial framework that silences women in the field of pop criticism, any more than a framework existed to silence Pauline Kael, Camille Paglia or Susan Sontag. A female critic with unique obsessions has to relish opportunities to tee off on a grungier-than-thou sexist, not shrug her shoulders and slink off. If she winds up making few or no converts, well guess what — 99.9% of the guys don’t either.
Like any art form, criticism is something you do because you’re driven to do it. It’s too simplistic to dismiss IMSes as pompous or sexist — what drives most of them is self-expression. If you’ve worked hard at refining your aesthetic standards, why wouldn’t you want to share what you’ve learned? If they’re unfairly dismissive, then explain to them where they’re wrong, and meet them snide for snide.
I myself am more pop-friendly than most of these critics — I detest whiny post-grunge like a head cold, and there are female pop and folk musicians who move me in ways males can’t approach. But I completely understand why IMSes cultivate their iconoclasm like bonzai trees. The boys can’t help it, and the girls, if they really love their art, have to love it enough to fiercely defend their perspective, too.
One more thing — People who shrug off music or any art form with “I know what I like and I don’t have to go around analyzing it to show how smart I am” have every right to do so, but I can’t understand why someone would be proud of such an attitude. It’s uncurious and boring, and they should not be allowed near the stereo at a party.
You know I think there might be another reason, at least in my case, which is that I was socialized to want a career that “matters,” “helps people,” “does good things in the world,” etc. etc.
No offense to IMSers, of course, but hear me out. There are a couple of different ways to look at achieving in our society. One is to have a “job that matters.” Another is to be the “best!!!” in your field.
Now, I think it’s not a stretch to suggest that boys are more socialized than girls to the expectation that they *can* and *should* be the best in their field. Or any field. And you can justify your interest in something fairly trivial (like video games) by being awesome at it. So competition is sort of an expected consequence of boys getting really involved in a subject or activity. The IMS-pro is an extension of this, whereby IMS-pro’s music review is a chance to prove to the world that he (usually) has the most obscure, most ironic, most nuanced appreciation of a scene or music in general.
So boys with nerdy tendencies tend to justify their obsession by competing to be the best. As a result of this, to take anyone else seriously they expect that other person to compete.
Girls can and do compete, but I think girls really are raised to not value competition as much as contribution to society. I make no “men/women are inherently this way” claims here. I for one got tired of needing to prove that I had better taste than all of y’all just to have an opinion on music, and I had trouble justifying spending too much money and time on a music scene when there were so many other things to pay attention to, like politics, social issues, and passing school. I think this is not so uncommon.
As I said before, another way to justify your obsessive interest in something/choice of a career is to suggest that it matters inherently. And a lot of girls (especially girls with feminist-leaning upbringings) get the message that “you are smart and capable, you can do whatever you want!” but keep getting the subtle message that society is f*ed up and you should be the one to fix it. (not that there’s anything wrong with wanting to fix society, I’ve just met way more women who felt like it was their duty to fix the world than men, who tend to think it is their duty to achieve/earn a lot, i.e. compete) It is sort of the modern spin on women are caretakers and thus should only be mothers, nurses and teachers.
Music critic is just harder to justify
My first serious girlfriend was a DJ and a music journalist for the local alternative weekly who made it her business to sort out what she saw as my iffy musical taste. Any IMS cred I might boast of is no doubt largely due to her turning me on to the Velvet Underground, Can, Robert Wyatt, etc. at a tender age. I hear that cliche that women only get into music because of their boyfriends, but it doesn’t square with what I’ve seen in the real world.
I also spent a good chunk of my life on the staff of Puncture, a zine that was edited by a brilliant writer and VERY rigorous editor named Katherine Spielmann. A lot of great female writers contributed to the magazine over the years (including Lois Maffeo, now better known for her music than her criticism). I wonder if the fact that Puncture is less remembered today than contemporaries like Forced Exposure for this reason?
If Puncture were still around today, I’d probably be bugging Amanda to send them some writing, because she’d be perfect for them.
I always thought that the reason men wrote a preponderance of reviews was that we’re all compulsive masturbators.
I used to do promotions for local bands as a volunteer, and I encountered the most blatant sexism on cold calls. People in the music divisions of various publications and radio stations would straight ask me what my relationship was with the band and whether I was sleeping with someone in it. Because, you know, why else would a young women be interested in supporting local music?
I shouldn’t have given the impression above that the Austin Chronicle is a bad publication - they’re usually the good guys here (despite the tendency for Louis Black to piss me off.) It’s the Austin American Real-Estatesman that fills the bill for routine jerkishness.
I still know DJs who aren’t allowed to play female musicians back-to-back. Sigh. What keraaazy conspiracy theories.
I don’t know… I was always encouraged to be on music staff at my old college’s radio station (review music), and returned to not just d.j.ing but serving music staff when I returned (totally to just up my GPA for grad school
)
The radio station was dominated by young men when I first started (1997), but when I returned in 2003- far more women on-air, and on music staff.
oh, and I totally over-analyze most music, based on lyrics. I want my songs to get all sociological on my ass. I’m gathering this is not representative?
The record store (best one in KC area, if you’re to count Lawrence Fucking Kansas) that my former program director owns? Hires an even amount of of women and men. What I’m saying is: I never pay attention to Pitchfork (hey, one more reason to look down on them!), and, hey, color me having been totally oblivious to this phenomenon.
Oh, and yes- I am an IMS. Well, The Fucking Champs are playing tonight- and I am soooo skipping that shit. Maybe my IMS cred should be revoked?
oh, and I forgot to add: plenty of the directors at ol’ KJHK 90.7 (Lawrence, KS) are and have been women.
Beejeez, I lost you at “conspiracy”. Social structures can perpetuate themselves without a shadowy conspiracy. Maybe bone up a little on basic sociology and come back and try again.
Not to bust in, but i’ve got girls and I want them to be able to be scientists..
any chance you could email me this article, or tell me where to read it?
“I had just sent off this article about how girls get subtly and not-subtly dissuaded from pursuing science at a young age”
I do not think Ms. Marcotte has this problem, but when you make a critique people will respond to it with critiques of their own. Some women, and men, do not want to have their opinions criticized, and I would guess that for women it is a higher percentage than men. Or perhaps it is cultural and women are taught to be too timid to have opinions or want to justify them and vice versa for the men. Blog commenting does not seem to keep women from expressing themselves and partaking of the synthesis commenting stimulates, so maybe blog commenting is a good communications training tool.
Amanda -
I sent you this link (below; it’s a summary w/a link to the full article) on gender bias in science, academia and entrepreneurship sometime ago. Disclosure: it’s my own recently published study. I’m now shamelessly using the comments feature on this post to try to encourage other folks to take a look at it. I’m proud of my work, and find it a complex if revealing study that traces the construction of gender bias in a relatively new field, incl. lack of role models/poor fit with role models/negative role models; how fields become constructed in masculine images; how women and men internalize these dynamics, etc. etc.
http://www.grahamad.com/blog/2007/09/05/tracing-the-construction-of-gender-bias-key-findings/
As for music, I’m definitely not the right person for that conversation. I’m more of a talk radio person, and am too lazy to find new music - I’ve been listening to the same albums for WAY too long. But, sort of tangential, I’m pretty anti-musician. I dated a wanna be musician in high school/college, and I really hated how he thought it would be fun for both of us for me to listen to him “jam.” To this day, I’m not a big live music person because I’d rather be talking, not listening quietly.
But if you want to talk gender bias in academia/scholarship/politics, count me in!
Leigh:
Ha! Same here. He would do things like turn up the radio while I was talking if Phish came on and go through any CDs I bought and critique them. He actually told me flat out that my interests were boring, and that he couldn’t believe how stupid it was that anybody would actually think about things like biology. Apparently everybody is supposed to think about music all the time, or something.
So, one of my good friends plays guitar in an all-female ’80s-style metal band. Make of that what you will.
I’m gonna rant a bit, because I encountered this just the other day. I let slip to Young Male Coworker that I couldn’t care less if the White Stripes bailed at ACL, and he completely flipped out on me. Don’t I know that the band is HUGE? They’re the coolest thing in the universe and everyone loves them, so I’m just stupid for not enjoying their music. Then he sneeringly asked me what kind of music I listened to, expecting me to give him something to bash, but he’s never heard of my bands, so he was coming up empty. Through all of this, I was thinking - he’s a guy, he doesn’t know better.
Almost every obscure badass band I know of - from Mingo Fishtrap to Jim’s Big Ego, Scroobius Pip, Flight of the Conchords, Tim Fite, Dr. Teeth, Spoonfed Tribe and Little Jack Melody - were recommended to me by women. I give mad props to the guy who introduced me to Muse, but he’s a huge anomaly. Guys my age don’t like to wander from their comfort zones, they love buying CDs in the store and ragging on opening bands. They’re clueless.
But after reading this, I think it’s probably a bad idea to treat Male Coworker’s condescension so gently. I think he needs to be set straight. So I’ve decided to burn this guy a whole stack of CDs from bands he’s never heard on the radio. Maybe that will give him a little perspective.
Entomologista - I’ve been there! I have an extensive, extensive knowledge of classic rock that I might never have possessed were it not for this boyfriend (what’s up WZLX in Boston). Also at least 10 mixed tapes professing his adolescent, musical, ~1970s love (this was the early ’90s)!
I have to mention that I have only ever seen horrible reviews about the Dandy Warhols, complaining that they are “self-indulgent” and obsessively whining about their “in-jokes” on Pitchfork. They seem to be REALLY ANGRY that they don’t get the “in-jokes.” Suck it up. Why do you care? Can’t you just try to listen to the music? But no, they are not actually making music they like, they just really want to exclude YOU. Fuck off. Pitchfork writers are pricks who need approval. They don’t matter a bit.
Also, you are not an expert because you saw Dig but you have never heard their first record. Pitchfork pisses me off in many ways, but this is the number one in Let Me Count the Ways. I think their reviewers are all 17 years old.
Moss.Gatlin, I responded to this:
I spent over a decade in alt-rock radio, with complete creative control on the music I presented to the audience. Since leaving radio I’ve spent an equal number of years in community work, including direct contact with domestic abuse victims and Alzheimer’s patients. I thought that the more noble path for a therapeutic personality such as myself.
I now don’t believe the latter path is more noble or even helps people more than the one that entailed having a hand in the aesthetic development of thousands of people on a daily basis. I guess it depends on how seriously you take your job, and how much respect you have for the role of art in human life.
Art is of little import to some, to others it is the only thing that makes life worth living, even or especially in a shelter or nursing home.
And as an aside, anyone who thinks sexism and corporate hegemony is outrageous in the music industry, it’s a walk in the park compared to what you’ll find in so-called helping agencies.
The only friend/acquaintance with which I commented about their musical taste has been a close friend. Though we both liked “cheesy 80’s” pop music, that was the only area where we had common musical tastes.
Coincidentally, it just happens that we happen to dislike each other’s favorite musical genres. He is a HUGE disco and mellow 70’s music fan……I am a HUGE fan of 90’s alt. rock music (i.e. Cranberries, Offspring, etc). I find his favorite music to be too mellow and boring….he finds my favorites to be too loud and harsh. Despite the mutual jibes about each others musical tastes, we both are clear it is meant to be a long running “in-joke” between us. At the end of the day, the main punchline from the traded jibes is that insisting one’s “superior” musical tastes automatically confers total superiority over others reveals more about that individual’s unbridled arrogance and narrow-mindedness than anything else.
I’m a bit ignorant about the asshattery within the music review business as my friends and I have rarely based our musical preferences on what other people said was good or “cool”. Instead, we would try out various groups and genres and see if we liked it or not afterwards. One female classmate got me to try the band Garbage. Though I ended up disliking Garbage, I didn’t see the need to belittle her because her tastes happen to differ from mine just as she never felt the need to belittle me for liking to listen to an alt. rock band she considered “too whiny” for her tastes. Plus, she did introduce me to the Cranberries, a band that would be one of my favs. As a side note, while she does not necessarily analyze the lyrics intensely….bad/boring lyrics are an immediate turnoff whether she likes the “beat” of the music or not.
I’ve found this belittling others because their musical tastes do not accord with their own to be so odd that I’ve usually dismissed such narrow-minded people as “weirdos” who were probably internalizing some feelings of inadequacy. In a lot of ways, they remind me of snobs who felt that the ONLY acceptable form of music was western classical music. Yeah, right!
One side effect of ignoring musical conformists is that the musical tastes of friends and myself are quite “weird” by mainstream standards. I found this out the hard way a few times when co-workers and classmates who only know mainstream pop music would reacted with a stunned look on their face when they found I liked to listen to old Chinese folk songs (dating back to the 1930’s), a Bollywood movie soundtrack, Chinese/Japanese rock/metal, Korean dance/hip-hop, Jamaican dance hall, political humor, indie folk, etc on my mp3 player.
“Well riot grrl music was a part of the zine revolution, Rockit.”
Yeah of course but what I mean is, why are we still having this conversation fifteen years or so on? If you want to write about music the internet gives you the tools and opportunity to do so. If you want to start up your own site you can, same with music-based zines.
So why is there not a decent(even pandagon, say)-sized, feminist-oriented music site to counter this kind of thing, despite there being a zine/riot grrl legacy going back however many years? Not a WOMEN’S MUSIC site, just one that doesn’t cater to the stereotypes mentioned above. Is it lack of opportunity? Support? It’s not a dig, I’m generally curious as to what y’all think.
Amanda, could you humor a middle-aged guy and explain exactly what you mean by “wankfest” music? I truly don’t have a clue as to what you’re referring to.
I’ve heard so many stories from women musicians about the way they’re treated when they go into a music store. The most common complaint I’ve heard is that the salesperson will invariably ask if they are shopping for their boyfriend.
On a related note, Play like a girl is a terrific site for guitarists (and not just women). Lori Linstruth can play circles around almost any guitarist out there–male or female (check out some of the audio and video clips on the site).
I couldn’t read this post because of all the boobs on the side of the screen. I’m at work and boobs are apparently NSFW.
I think that there is not a “decent(even pandagon, say)-sized, feminist-oriented music site to counter this kind of thing” because of all the bs that has to be dealt with. Everytime I go on a female based sight for something that is male dominated there are hateful words and general asshattery that makes up about 50% of the comments. It gets turned into a joke a lot of the time. At first the writers ignore it or fight back but after a while it wears you down. Everytime something like that starts up the sight shuts down before it gets big. I know all sites like that have ignorant comments but I find that sites with a lot of female influence get it a lot worse and the attacks seem more personal. At least that is what I have noticed.
I also used to have a local radio show dedicated to female musicians. I would take requests and almost every time the phone rang it would be smart asses or clueless people asking for some male band. Even though, when I gave out the phone number, I would specify that I only play bands with at least one female.
I would then have to debate about why I had a show centered around the music of women. Even though it was one hour out of the week and the station barely played any female musicians other than my show.
Having to deal with that every night got old, so I cancelled my show because instead of being fun it became annoying and put me in a bad mood.
In some ways I regret it, in other ways I don’t.
This radio station had a sheet we had to follow as well. We had to play a certain percentage of Canadian bands , and a certain percentage of bands with females in them. I remember many reminders being sent to the dj’s about meeting the female quota because most people didn’t. It was like 2% or something which boils down to 1 band with a female in a half hour show. It really bothers me that most people couldn’t make that.
I have a feeling that the advertisers are trying to piss us feminists off or something, Elaine. They certainly can’t be getting many–if any–click-throughs.
Ach. I really hate the whole idea of girl liking cool music=boyfriend’s influence. Why? Because my current boyfriend’s taste in music mainly consists of listening to the oldies station on the radio when we’re driving. He’s not a big music fan, whereas I’ve been something of an eclectic audiophile since birth. I like his music, but…all of the ‘cool’ bands I like? I mostly read about in magazines/the Internet/in books about other musicians. The only thing my ex was into was crappy speed metal that all sounded the same. So anyone pulling the “you only like The Pixies/The Shins/Skunk Anansie/insert x name of band here” because of a boy” is an idiot, in my opinion.
Interesting article and discussion. As an ambivalent IMS it was an interesting reality check and a prompt to examine my own behavior.
One distinction that has not been introduced is the role of money and the record industry in promoting female bands, male band reviewers and the general structuring of taste. I worked for a few years at a college radio station, attended CMJ, and so on. Prompted by my then-girlfriend, who was a kickass feminist and taught me much of what I know about feminism, I conducted an informal sociological survey at the 1999 CMJ. Women were represented, primarily, in only three fields in the music industry: fans/consumers, performers and promoters. The first two fields are self-explanatory. The third was interesting to me, and seemed a deliberate choice: young, always attractive women, with impeccable taste in music, were given the job of convincing young, nerdy, and overwhelmingly male, college radio directors, music journalists, club owners, etc., to play/write about/book the band being promoted. The point of the anecdote is that music business banks much of its profitability on the manipulation of sex and gender roles, even in the so-called “pure” realm of indie music. This extends all the way to the actual marketers of the music themselves.
Indie music itself is a lie anyway, as most of the major independent labels are partially owned, and completely distributed, by major labels.
At the truly independent level - where people play music for the love of it and the friendships it fosters - there is a bit more equality and certainly a lot less snobbishness. My younger brother lives in a punk house in Brooklyn, which is split about evenly down gender lines, but the undoubted ruler of the scene that revolves around it is his best friend, a young woman. She books punk shows around town, and though there are still many dude-dominated bands, there are quite a few all-girl bands, and a lot, lot, lot of mixed-gender bands, most of which have women who play guitar, drums, bass, and don’t just sing.
All this 2 cents is anecdotal, of course, but from what I can tell, from thinking about it informally, is that the revolution represented by Riot Grrrl and the proliferation of feminist pop culture thought and cultural production has benefited the generation that followed the Riot Grrrl generation the most. Bands like Bikini Kill and publications like Bitch and institutions like the Rock n’ Roll Summer Camp for Girls, showed the way and the generation immediately behind mine reaped the benefits. And hopefully that trend will continue.
Sorry for the dudish IMS sociology.
as a recovering IMS, this whole discussion hits really close to home. it reminds me of a fellow indie geek i was dating in college, who, when looking through my music collection said, incredulously, “you own records that i don’t own! from bands i’ve never heard of!” um, yeah, dude.
i’ve never felt much of an urge to attempt a career at music writing, despite my twin interests in both fields. partly, it’s because the music writing i have done has not been very good, and i don’t want to contribute to what is an already over-crowded field of mediocre music criticism. but i also don’t want to have to put up with lame IMS bullshit (from both men and women), which is very real.
also, while i do think there are lots of good female music writers out there, there do seem to be fewer of them, for whatever reason, and i think they often do encounter a kind of bias and sexism that men don’t. while i don’t agree with everything she writes, i’m a fan of jessica hopper, largely because she’s not afraid to say what she thinks, she’s unabashedly feminist, and she will call people on their bullshit. she seems to get criticized a lot, for a lot of reasons (scencestery people will know about the great newsweek magazine riot grrl interview fiasco, which she still gets shit about, even though it happened when she was, like, 15). she wrote an awesome essay about sexism in the punk/emo community for punk planet a few years ago: http://web.archive.org/web/20031002042645/http://www.punkplanet.com/archives/00000004.html
it is good stuff.
also, puncture! i loved that magazine. whatever happened to it?
This thread is the best source of bands to check out that I’ve run across in a good while.
Great article. I often feel like some sort of lone female ranger amongst my music geek friends (all but one are guys) my one female uber music geek friend has had to deal with sexist sound men in her time.
There is an attitude of music being somewhat of a guys club with female fans and musicians being somewhat of a novelty.
It does remind me of computer geeks too , I was once asked in a very patronising way (once the guy stopped talking to my dad that was) in a computer shop if I knew a mac was different to a PC.
Things may be moving on and obviously not all men in music are sexist pigs but I do feel I have to try twice as hard as a man to ‘prove myself’, like you have to be twice as good as the guys.
Just want to thank you for this. I’m sending it to all of my male music snob friends and saying, “See!? I TOLD you!!”
I especially like your insights about the male “ironic” appreciation of hair metal. It’s not that I don’t like “I Can’t Drive 55,” it’s that I was never very sure if that kind of music permitted me to like it in the way I’m accustomed to liking things.
Most of my boyfriends have trembled before the majestic grandeur of my IMS-tude.
My current boyfriend and I generally like each other’s taste in music and have turned each other on to many new things.
In all honesty, though, the man who has probably had the most influence on me musically was my dad, who listened to everything from Louis Armstrong and his Hot Five to Bach to Creedence, and who personally played classical guitar, mandolin, banjo, and lute all through my childhood. My mom was more of a radio-listener, but she infected me with her love of the Beatles.
It seems to me that a lot of people are strongly influenced in their musical tastes by the tastes of their parents. Has anyone else found that?
This thread is the best source of bands to check out that I’ve run across in a good while.
Only if you have pretensions of becoming an IMS. Moreover, any band beloved by more than 5 IMSs instantly becomes mainstrean and therefore despised. Thus, tread carefully.
Ick. It seems to be that if the IMS community excludes you, they’re doing you a favor.
also, puncture! i loved that magazine. whatever happened to it?
They folded after their final issue in 2000 (with Sleater-Kinney on the cover) because Katherine Spielmann and Steve Connell wanted to focus more on Verse Chorus Press, their book publishing biz. I miss it too.
My wife and I have a music relationship that is the opposite of the stereotype. She’s turned me on to tons of good music. On the other hand, she won’t let me turn her on to anything. She doesn’t do jazz, reggae, or any rock music before, say, 1988, so that leaves out most of my favorite music.
Can I just step out here and say that, as a male and a , I think that ironic appreciation of hair metal is dumb. I think that period of time has passed for everyone, even the most intense of IMS’s. I used to be into hair metal, but that time passed intensely for me a while ago when I heard jump for the 1000th time in my life. I realized the whole thing was shit, much like this rap-pop they are putting out now. It’s catchy the first twenty times, but then it gets repetitive. To paraphrase the dandy warhols (they are a crappy band, and I believed this far before DiG! suggested it to me. I listened to them when I was a freshman in college and I fell asleep. The Brian Jonestown Massacre is way better. WAY better.), irony is so passé.
Anyway, anyone who is set in their musical tastes and says they like music doesn’t really like music. Music is all about exploration and understanding new scenes. I’m not saying that everyone has to like everything, but there should be a willingness to at least listen to it. That’s half the fun of listening to music: finding that album from a long-lost band and getting really into it. That’s one of the most satisfying feelings ever. And, watching it grow into a phenomenon that hasn’t compromised its morals for mainstream success.
I think the key here is to ignore music critics and all is fine. I’m male, happy to say that if it weren’t for the women in my life, including my wife, and some of my girlfriends, I’d still be listening to the radio for my music exposure. I don’t know if today me could stand the pre-taste me.
Another random thought. Could this be related to the culture of the music venues? I haven’t read all the comments, (compelled to leave my “not ME” comment after reading), so maybe someone else hit this above.
Sujal
erm, that should read “and some of my EX-girlfriends” Just clarifying in case my wife sees this (also a pandagon reader).
Sujal
My reactions — and maybe somebody’s already made these points, but I have ADD and stopped reading the comments about halfway through — are as follows:
1. Music geeks and music snobs are as different from each other, in their Platonic forms, as matter and anti-matter. A geek is someone who love something more than they love their own status; a snob is someone who uses the same tools in service of that self-love. These should not be confused.
2. Pitchfork is a site that’s at least 60% snob to 40% geek, and not trending towards the better.
3. Female super-fans of popular or semi-popular music tend to, in my experience, be more geek than snob, more enthusiast and/or advocate and/or anthropologist and/or phenomenologist than self-appointed mandarin. I wouldn’t presume to speculate as to why this is the case, as it’s too complicated and as I said I have ADD.
4. Which is not to say that I know more female music geeks than male music geeks, as I simply know more systemically-oriented males in general; cf. the work of Simon Baron-Cohen.
5. And is also not to say that the women are less (or more) status-seeking than the men, only that in my experience they tend to find other avenues for it than brute canonical dominance, such as intimate gossip about beautiful people who may as well be Borgesian fictions.
6. If there were a third gender, I imagine it would have its own sad little Achilles’ heel as well.
My reactions — and maybe somebody’s already made these points, but I have ADD and stopped reading the comments about halfway through — are as follows:
1. Music geeks and music snobs are as different from each other, in their Platonic forms, as matter and anti-matter. A geek is someone who love something more than they love their own status; a snob is someone who uses the same tools in service of that self-love. These should not be confused.
2. Pitchfork is a site that’s at least 60% snob to 40% geek, and not trending towards the better.
3. Female super-fans of popular or semi-popular music tend to, in my experience, be more geek than snob, more enthusiast and/or advocate and/or anthropologist and/or phenomenologist than self-appointed mandarin. I wouldn’t presume to speculate as to why this is the case, as it’s too complicated and as I said I have ADD.
4. Which is not to say that I know more female music geeks than male music geeks, as I simply know more systemically-oriented males in general; cf. the work of Simon Baron-Cohen.
5. And is also not to say that the women are less (or more) status-seeking than the men, only that in my experience they tend to find other avenues for it than brute canonical dominance, such as intimate gossip about beautiful people who may as well be Borgesian fictions.
6. If there were a third gender, I imagine it would have its own sad little Achilles’ heel as well.
Well, female IMS’s are much nicer when they’re ripping your shit to shreds. The ones who’ve destroyed my band’s stuff over the years have always given me the impression that we drained away their infinite reserves of patience.
I dunno. My best critic is my wife. If she’s not that excited by a song my band writes, chances are not too many others will be either. But whatever.
I really like that the first things I read here when I come back after a bit is an IMS column, then Pam’s Jena 6 one. I’ve missed the panda.
A refreshing counter to the male dominated music world would have to be Venus magazine. It features female musicians, and is written if not mostly, then predominately, by women.
And I’m damn proud to be a female IMS!
Tread carefully? You fool! I shall introduce these bands to millions of young fans, denying IMSs their precious little joys! And no one can stop me! Muahahahahahahahaha!
(Besides, if you want to keep them discovering bands, you have to shoo them away from the bands they like now.)
well, i don’t know where i fall in all this or whether what i have to say is even relevant, but my friends and relatives seem to concur that i am one of the most insufferable trivia-saturated music snobs of all freaking time, for the past 3 decades; since i was in the single digits i have, for instance, followed album PRODUCERS as closely, if more closely than musicians….
but what i really wanted to make note of was that i would say a good 50 to 60% of the bands or musicians i consider the “greatest ever” are women or include women, and furthermore, a good 50 to 60% of the good music (by males, females, or both) that i have been “hipped” to, i learned about from female acquaintances, among them my lovely wife. if not for my wife, i wouldn’t have ever heard citizen cope, for example. and if you haven’t at least HEARD citizen cope your music snob certificate gets automatically revoked.
music snobbery being a he-man wimmin haterz club is merely a reflection of the fact that pretty much everything is. particularly knowledge-based hobbies of any sort where trivia collecting and name cataloguing is key. the interesting thing though is that while i have more music stored on my hard drive than my wife does on hers, she actually LISTENS to more music in the course of her daily life than i do. so maybe it’s just that women live more in the real, social world outside of their heads than men do. at least that’s how it often seems to me.
I was also going to add that a good counter to music snobbery, and a bastion of well-rounded music geekiness are the fine folks at the greatest record store in North America, Aquarius Records in San Francisco. They run a great website where they write excellent reviews out of love, not hate. That does not mean that they are not critical, but they tend to only write about what they love. Their tastes are eclectic as well.
Worth a read: http://www.aquariusrecords.org
Jessica Hopper
Amy Phillips and Amanda Petrusich of P4K, but also of the Village Voice.
Fangirl
Sarah Zupko, founder and editor-in-chief of Popmatters
Cynthia Fuchs, Editor @ Popmatters
I forgot to mention Ann Powers, who writes on music for the LATimes.
Also, if you read a fair amount of pop music crit on the web, you’ll see that most of it is a mixed bag. I wouldn’t say that p4k invented pretentious music writing, because as you budding music critics know the real godfathers of this are people like Lester Bangs, Greil Marcus @ Rolling Stone and Robert Christgau at VV. p4k just repackaged it for a whole new generation, and ended up replicating some of gonzo’s less tolerable excesses. But there are a few genuinely good writers out there, only a handful, and there are probably IMO as many good women who are critics as men. Which means, that despite the plethora of males you see on the new sites like p4k that none of them are too great. Perhaps with the exception of Mark Richardson, Chris Dahlen, and Rob Mitchum. Xgau can be great too. A
But I can’t recommend Jessica Hopper enough. And Popmatters is a great site to a diverse group of cultural writers trying to find their voices.
[And in case there’s a “why are there no female movie critics” blog post I’ll volunteer some more names: Manohla Dargis, Carina Chocano, Stephanie Zacharek, Dana Stevens, Cynthia Fuchs (again), Kim Morgan, Kathleen Murphy, Jessica Winter, Kristi Mitsuda]
For the record I’m both a geek and an insufferable music snob, neither of which has anything to do with the fact that I’m a woman. I’ll happily declare your taste crap if I think it’s crap, and shove a whole bunch of boring, but complicated music in your face.
Music is meant to be enjoyed, not overanalyzed. I have precious little patience with music reviewers of either gender…especially those who do NOT have experience as either musicians or vocalists. Half of them seem to be in business just to tear down musicians anyway. I don’t take my cues from them as to what I like or what I think is “crap.” Nor should anyone else. People should learn to think for themselves not succumb to virtual “peer pressure” when deciding what sort of music or musician they appreciate.
Cringe.
Fuck gender. Fuck roll models. Fuck boy verse girl. I have spent 20 years working in the indie music industry, spent nearly as long playing in bands, and for some reason thought it was a good idea once upon a time to spend almost 2 years reviewing Pitchfork music reviews at my own music blog Tuningfork (RIP). I never once thought damn - men at PFM suck, in fact the sex of the writers never crossed my mind at all. I wanted to discuss music and the quality of writing, not if the person pissing me off at Pitchfork had a penis or not.
I never wake up in the morning and think crap -I am female, how am I going to go about my day or how will I be taken seriously because I have a vagina? I just do what I do and hopefully by knowing a thing or two about music and after having two decades of experience - a few people might take my words, actions, or body of writing seriously. I have never worried about my cred level because I wear a bra or feared a lesser place in the music industry (or world) because of it. Day to day I am focused on getting things done in my own world. The more I accomplish the better and if I happen to be a woman accomplishing these things, than so be it. If someone gives me less credit because I have girl parts then that is their problem. I want my knowledge and performance to speak for itself when it comes to music (playing and or writing)- not my gender.
I can’t believe in this day and age that anyone would have to stick up for the woman or women in their lives who know music to the geek extreme or that anyone would have to go out of their way to prove that we exist in the first place. Trust me. We are out there and we probably own more records than you do. So there.
If it wasn’t for Steph’s taste and ability to say NO to some of the mad ideas I come up with, we wouldn’t have the sound we have.
So I can safely say that in our case it’s a balancing act that stops things going off into some wank-fest tangent.
Some of the greatest music ever came from male/female duos and I think there’s a good reason for it. It can work.
That isn’t to say that guys don’t dominate music journalism. They do, and they run in packs.
And it seems none of them can agree whether we’re new country, new folk or country folk techno anyway. They love to categorise the acts they want to ignore!