Posted by Amanda Marcotte September 18, 2007 in Uncategorized
In a rush out the door this morning, but here’s an interesting video that I grabbed from Echidne. Warning: It’s really distressing—in part, it’s a video a man made his son take of him beating his wife. What’s fascinating is it really shows how justified abusers feel about their behavior.
The end part is interesting, too, since they interview the judge on this case.
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Read the YouTube comments on that video if you want to lose all faith in humankind.
All the ‘Nice Guys’ are out in drove, blaming the victim.
This woman was on a two part series on Oprah last season. It was too sickening to watch.
The judge says “it was an unusual case and required and unusual punishment,” but the only thing unusual about it from my perspective is that it was caught on videotape.
Will he be handing out stronger sentences from now on?
Holy shit - the YouTube comments. Judging from the way they are framed, i.e. text message/IM spelling - “UR 2 KEWL LOL” they appear to be written mostly by people in the late teens - mid twenties age group. How have we managed to raise such twisted fucks?
Blackbloc,
Damn it, I already had my morning stomachache… why did you have to suggest that? Might as well share the awful little slices of youtube.
Within the first two pages, a proud, self-confessed abuser (hope he gets a visit from the police… oh, wait, that only happens if you download a song from Kazaa), two Nice Guys, and a whole lot of victim-blaming. Oh, and someone managed to make it about Britney and Angelina. I don’t quite understand the connection, but I guess I haven’t thought about it as much as some people.
Oh goodness, all the really fantastic racism responses are a bit older (but they’ve at least been negged enough to autohide)
Prepare to love America:
And my absolute favorite youtube comment of all time:
Fucking awesome. Actually being distressed that a woman was beaten by her husband makes you a pussy… and a REAL MAN(TM) wouldn’t have given the guy more than a year.
Judge Mathis who presides over a televised CIVIL court, but whatever.
I was actually moved to see the judge’s comments at the end of the clip. I have a feeling this video tape had a lot to do with the long sentence in this case–good job in being so self-absorbed and arrogant that you create your own evidence for your trial, abusers.
You’d think a video would help rapists get convicted, but no such luck in this country so far.
I had to stop watching. It amazes me - no, it astounds me - that some guy would not only beat his wife, but make his child tape it. I really, really don’t understand that mentality at all.
Well, that ruined my day.
The first thing I noticed in the tape was that the guy prominently wears a cross. Lot’s you could say about that, sarcastic or otherwise, but really, it speaks for itself.
I too am baffled that women stay with men like him. Gotta admit. It’s incomprehensible.
While I understand how this instance lends itself to the success of prosecution and also to a great tv special because of the excellent documentation, it kills me that because it happened to be a black man committing the crimes that for many white viewers it reinforced racist assumptions and allowed them to other the whole thing. *sigh*
No it’s not if you aren’t too lazy to read anything on domestic violence studies, or the way in which society constructs the roles of women in relationships, etc, etc.
But no, lets just ignore all that and ignorantly blame women by focusing on them through comments like “why do women stay?”
How about why the FUCK men hit?
Perhaps you should listen to what the woman on the tape actually says.
It doesn’t start out this violent. It escalates slowly. You believe that the problem really is you. By the time you know you’re in an abusive situation it is DANGEROUS to leave. Do you understand that she was lucky to get out alive? That the man may have killed her children? Watch the video again, watch it three or four times and LISTEN!
Sorry, that last comment was for Libertarian.
I’m not too baffled that she stayed with him. A lot of abusers don’t only abuse their significant others, but move on to threaten/abuse their children or anything they view as “their” property. Two of my aunts have been in similar situations.
If I had a child and I loved that child . . . I would endure almost anything to protect them. And in fact, instead of thinking of just her own safety, this brave woman also got her children to safety as well, even when she must have known the statistics. People who have been abused and then run away are often killed by their abuser. Often, a killer will cite the “running away” as the main reason why they killed the person who was abused, the children and anyone else who gets in the way. Often, a killer will threaten the abused with death if he/she runs away.
This is not just a man/woman problem. Domestic abuse happens in many different partnerships, even in parent/child relationships.
As heart-rending as that video was, I’m happy that it was posted. Education and information is needed in the fight against domestic abuse and domestic violence. Not only that, but manpower is needed. If you were moved by the content in this video, you are obligated to do something, to say something. If you meet someone in a situation like this, reach out to help or contact the authorities. If you don’t want this to ever happen to someone, volunteer somewhere, get out there. Otherwise, you’re just helping abusers hurt women/children/families.
That’s what baffles me. I’ve read some of the broader, theoretical views on domestic violence, and while that work does make sense to me, it’s still hard for me to connect that to the actual decision an abuser makes to hit someone he says he loves.
Sarah said:
To be fair, your question is even easier to answer than the question you (and I) dismiss as victim-blaming nonsense: because they can get away with it. If you want to solve the problem of domestic violence you need all of the following:
better culture (stop letting people believe that any domestic violence is okay)
better laws (make sure domestic violence is actually illegal, and that there are legal shields to protect women who leave abusers: their bodies, their children, and their assets)
better cops (no, guys, it’s really not a private matter…)
better judges (yes, you need to hand out jailtime for this shit, even when the husband is white and even when he’s not stupid enough to tape it)
better awareness (once we change the institutions, we’ll need to make sure women know that there’s real help out there)
… Boy, that’s a tall order. Why don’t we just pray, instead?
Abusers threaten your pets, your children, and your other family members.
Abusers often control the money.
Abusers isolate women from support networks.
Abusers hide their behavior and make outsiders and even close friends of the victim doubt her words.
They are very clever about their sick fuck ways and our culture supports their behavior. We think couples should work out their own differences and we think women should trust men with their money. We also seem to believe that “domestic” violence is a private matter rather than a cultural one.
That’s why “women stay” and that’s why “men hit.”
Sorry “men hit” should be men hit - no need for quote marks there. Got carried away
I
can’twon’t watch this. I lived it. Some of my ex’s friend who HEARD me getting beaten, while my ex was accusing me of having an affair with the listening friend and the next door neighbor (which I was not)- not only did nothing to stop it and help me, but didn’t at the very least step in and say “No, she and I are not having an affair. And she’s not having an affair with XXX.” The sick fuck did nothing and actually approved of it.Isn’t making one’s sons tape it child abuse?
This appeared in our past Sunday paper. I was going to quote it in Amanda’s “The end game of control” post. But with when y’all began to post the comments on the youtube video I think it’s more apropos here.
It doesn’t take me much to mentally flash right back and am “in” those circumstances and those times. PTSD? Yes, it never truly goes away, it’s just something you learn to manage.
Dennis -
lol, actually, the question was rhetorical, I know the answer is easier, and was half considering popping in a sentence to say just that, but then left it off
Ya know, it’s like pushing the panic button.
I ask most of the women here (there’s bound to be an exception), if you spent two days with this guy, wouldn’t you leave? Don’t you find it hard to believe women put up with this? I do.
I don’t know that “because they can get away with it” is much of a reason “why men hit,” Dennis. I’m guessing you’ve never hit a woman, as I certainly haven’t, and as men, we have the same odds of “getting away with it” as abusers do. The question is not at all simple to answer, but it’s more pointless to answer; increased awareness of “why women stay” could embolden women to leave abusive relationships, but sadly, awareness of “why men hit” would probably do little to curtail men who abuse.
I, too, was distressed to see that it was black man with an ostensibly white woman. That practically makes it an early Christmas present for racists.
No, because unlike you, I don’t blame the women in these situations by focusing on them. And no, I don’t find it unbelievable, because I’ve studied the issue.
Look, Libertarian, stop trying to rephrase the same victim-blaming question over and over again, and start educating yourself. It’s really not that complicated.
Have you actually read anything posted in response to your first (obnoxious) comment, Libertarian? You were answered repeatedly.
…i’m tempted to make some sort of parallel between the willful blindness on display here and the similar contorted thought processes on display when someone tries to defend Ayn Rand and/or the Laffer Curve. But that would be mean.
I ask most of the women here (there’s bound to be an exception), if you spent two days with this guy, wouldn’t you leave?
Me? Yep. Not even two days - just don’t talk to me that way and don’t make me feel threatened if you value your teeth and out of there. But I never bought the meme that I *need* a man around. I’m educated, earn enough to make my own way, and two fingers is all it takes.
HOWEVER I am a ballbusting bitch with a pussywhipped husband and a harpie and a bad mother and a bad wife and I can’t relate to the vast majority of women in the schoolyard because I don’t “know my place” and don’t drink the cultural KoolAid and that threatens the heirarchy that sustains those who live unconscious lives of sheep as a result.
Women are often raised like sheep. They may lash out at female threats to their girlfriends or anything that makes them think about how trapped in fucked-up they are, but are taught to fear and obey church, “authority figures” and males alike.
I daresay no woman would put up with that for two days. I’m sure the guy was charming her sox off at the two-day or two-month mark.
Gross.
I’m so glad that Zog and I intervened when some micropenis was slapping his “girl” around on the T one day.
I can’t forget the look of astonshment on his face when a 5′4″ woman shoved him against a brick wall and lifted him up by the sweater, pinning him a couple inches off the ground. He never even tried to fight back - I can look pretty psycho and he was terrified. Meanwhile, Zog put the slapped up girl (they were both drunk) on the train.
I hope they both learned a lesson or two. If I was smaller than she was and managed to restrain him, she didn’t have to take his shit. If there are guys who will really protect you and help you when you need help and protection, maybe she didn’t need him. Perhaps he learned that he didn’t have a *right* to slap women in public, nor could he claim physical superiority against a smaller and very pissed off female.
Somehow, we must help these victims out of such a hopeless situation. period.
In Odessa, Texas last week, three police officers were shot and killed by the male abuser while they were responding to a domestic disturbance.
Godmonkey, I have serious alarm-bell radar for charmers. Always have. I don’t know why, but I’m thankful just the same.
Because
1. It doesn’t (and never) starts out violent. The first time my ex hit me was 7 months after we were married. I was already invested in the marriage.
2. My husband would always get me with my vows “for better or worse. . . in sickness and in health” and this was both
(there’s no vow that says “You will not hit your wife or your children.”
3. Though I was a Methodist at the time and that church doesn’t take this stance MANY churches believe the ONLY reason for divorce is infidelity.
One of the upteen counselors we had to help my ex with his PTSD and violence was through my church, the DAV, the VA, and Kaiser.
4. Slowly through the years I was isolated from my family, even though they lived within 6 houses from me. You are embarrased and ashamed.
5. Because abuse comes in cycles, while everything is fine and peaceful, you delude yourself that you can handle it and that it’s better for the kids if you stay together - when the cycle pops, you’re too scared to leave.
6. Since A LOT of abuse is about control the most dangerous times for a women are when she leave the relationship, when she takes the children and when she get’s a divorce. In fact womens shelter’s empty whenever there is a story that a woman who tried to leave her abuser is killed by her abuser. Women rationalize “alive and beaten is better than dead.”
There are more reasons but I’ve been distracted.
Saying you don’t understand the dynamics of D.V., Mr. Libertarian, is no more interesting a statement about yourself than saying you don’t understand the dynamics of the Gulf Stream. Either read up on it, listen to someone who knows (several of whom are conveniently here), or restrict yourself to other topics.
Because
1. It doesn’t (and never) starts out violent. The first time my ex hit me was 7 months after we were married. I was already invested in the marriage.
2. My husband would always get me with my vows “for better or worse. . . in sickness and in health” and this was both
(there’s no vow that says “You will not hit your wife or your children.”
3. Though I was a Methodist at the time and that church doesn’t take this stance MANY churches believe the ONLY reason for divorce is infidelity.
One of the upteen counselors we had to help my ex with his PTSD and violence was through my church, the DAV, the VA, and Kaiser.
4. Slowly through the years I was isolated from my family, even though they lived within 6 houses from me. You are embarrased and ashamed.
5. Because abuse comes in cycles, while everything is fine and peaceful, you delude yourself that you can handle it and that it’s better for the kids if you stay together - when the cycle pops, you’re too scared to leave.
6. Since A LOT of abuse is about control the most dangerous times for a women are when she leave the relationship, when she takes the children and when she get’s a divorce. In fact womens shelter’s empty whenever there is a story that a woman who tried to leave her abuser is killed by her abuser. Women rationalize “alive and beaten is better than dead.”
There are more reasons but I’ve been distracted.
Libertarian: Two words. Shut up.
Like I need anyone else in the world questioning why I stayed with an abusive ass for five years.
I hear you clytemnestra…the PTSD never seems to go away.
I thought the woman in the video clip explained it rather well.
http://www.officer.com/online/article.jsp?siteSection=2&id=37788
The story about the shooting.
if you spent two days with this guy, wouldn’t you leave?
You think he was like this in the first 2 days of the relationship?
Uh, no. This shit starts slowly and escalates until you don’t know which way is up. I was never hit, but my ex was emotionally abusive to the point I doubted everything I said, did or thought about.
Well, I could get away with all sorts of things that I consider morally wrong, but I refrain from doing those things because I believe they are morally wrong (one example, eating meat.) However, there are some things that I consider morally permissible that I either don’t do (or at least take damn good care to hide) because there are actually legal consequences in place. Examples that may or may not apply to any given person in any given situation: marijuana use, copyright infringement, non-payment of taxes.
Being able to get away with it is only half the story, true… but if you look at the cultural defects that determine the psychology of abusers, the enforcement side of things looks much easier to fix. Sadly, in a democratic republic (or whatever the hell we have going on here, these days), the cultural defects have to be repaired before we can fix the laws/enforcement.
What Godmonkey said, Libertarian. Abuse isn’t about an uncontrollable temper, it’s all about control. Abusers can control themselves, and they know very well how to control their victims - with both carrot and stick.
You can bet that this guy was very charming in the beginning - sweet words, extravagant gifts, and undying passion. Then, as he slowly isolated her from her support system (”They don’t understand us, baby…you don’t need them”) and she became more dependent on him, he became less charming. Even so, I imagine the first incidents of true abuse were followed by extravagant apologies and yet more extravagant gifts.
A few years down the line, and they’re married. She’s afraid for her very life if she leaves - never mind the fact that she’ll have nothing and he has the kids as hostages. Is it really that hard to understand?
My point exactly, Dennis.
I’m too jaded to think we can prevent men from abusing. I think we can “empower” (it’s cliche Twofer-Tuesday at chez Godmonkey) more women to get the hell out. And actually — upon further reflection — understanding the psyche of the abuser could be helpful, since the women are locked into a kind of Stockholm-syndrome scenario.
Enforcement is generally predicated on someone pressing charges, which is why men can, as you pointed out, get away with it in far too many cases. Neighbors are generally very, very reluctant to get involved in these things.
And when you press charges, chances are he’ll be out the next day. He’ll only observe the protective order if he wants to, and the police are probably not enthusiatic about enforcing it anyway. Since the local shelter is going is to be full most of the time, you don’t have any money, and transportation assistance is almost impossible to find, what then?
Small correction to a couple of commenters: The woman in the 20/20 video here is not white. She’s biracial (black/white), as is clearly stated towards the beginning of the video.
Now I remember what I was going to put on the end of my comment (which is in moderation). Cass helped me remember it.
Getting a restraining/no contact order only works AFTER he’s done something. The Dixie Chicks put it really well, in “Goodbye Earl:”
Daomadan - I was married to my abuser for 5 years too.
Orange,
Good catch… however, at first glance (and therefore, for the purposes of reinforcing racist assumptions and influencing juries) she’s white, so all the relevant points here making reference to her as a white woman pretty much stand.
if you spent two days with this guy, wouldn’t you leave?
I doubt most women would keep seeing a guy who started beating her on the first date. But it doesn’t work that way. He starts out so sweet and charming. Then he starts getting more controlling, but it’s really gradually so it’s hard to notice, and in the meantime he’s being emotionally manipulative as hell. By the time things start getting really bad (ie the physical beating stage), she’s already in. He’s already isolated her from her friends and family, he’s already controlling her finances, and he’s threatening to kill her if she leaves. It’s not an empty threat, either. So no, I wouldn’t stay in an abusive relationship if it were as simple as just leaving, but it almost never is.
Love love love that judge. It gives me hope for our justice system.
And often, only after he’s done something physical and damaging.
My former boss got into a relationship with a man (whom she’d known a long time, who I knew something of, and we both at that point thought he was charming) from an organization she participated in.
Over the course of a year, he slowly got creepier and creepier, so she tried to end the relationship. That’s when he escalated. He set up multiple e-mail accounts and did the “I’m watching you” type letters (the type of description that made it obvious that he was following her and being a peeping tom). He called the office every 5 minutes. He tried to play her college-aged son against her (first via e-mail, then by flying OUT to DC where he was at college and trying to corner him).
This was prior to our state’s passage of cyberstalking laws, so because he had yet to physically harm her, she could not get a restraining order. In the end, she quit her job and moved cross-country to get away from him.
…which is why many Canadian police forces were moved to a mandated-charge system in such cases. It is far from perfect, (see below) but preferable to leaving the decision in the hands of a psychologically shattered and physically vulnerable victim.The main two flaws that I personally saw in the mandated-charge system during the time that I did domestic law were: First, it could falter during the post-charge and up-to-trial stage as pressures were brought to bear on the abused spouse; this is yet another reason why rapid trials should become the norm, not the exception. Second, the the system was flawed in its gender assumptions. Almost all abusers are men, but that doesn’t mean that they should lose the protection of the law when their wife is a violent fruitcake. Men on the receiving end of domestic violence often faced situations where their abuse was never taken seriously or, worse, when the blues showed up they were the ones charged. It’s one of the reasons that one should eye some of the domestic battery charges with at least some small measure of wariness: much of such abuse never makes it to the charge sheet.
Those flaws show, however, that the problem with mandatory charging lies in fine-tuning the implementation rather than abandoning it and the protect-the-victim principle which underlies it.
And for what it’s worth, I thought the DV cop in the video was quite clever to get that call on tape. It was a beautiful nail in the right coffin. In an era where lazy cops are getting distressingly common it was a lovely bit of high-return police work.
(By the way, Clytemnestra, I love your adopted name. And no hard feelings about what happened in the bathroom; the bastard deserved it.)
I forgot to add that much of the male-on-female domestic violence never makes it there either, until or unless the wife is hospitalized or murdered. That’s why I say “one of the reasons”: domestic violence statistics are probably on the low side for both sides of the equation.Cass —
LOL !! . . . actually my ex died a year ago in a motorcycle accident. . . my current husband, however, was relieved when I re-did the bathroom in lime green and royal blue and in the process got rid of the purple bathroom rugs.
Godmonkey, while I doubt we have enough research now to link “Right-Wing Authoritarian” and “Social Dominance Orientation” attitudes to abuse, it seems like a promising area for study. Meeting different people tends to reduce RWA scores. We don’t know how to reduce SDO scores yet, I think, but the combination of both attitudes tends to produce the most aggression.
My ex was verbally abusive for about six months before he escalated to physical violence. There was only episode of violence because I had him arrested immediately. He choked me twice, punched me in the face, spit on me and dragged the car door over me as he was driving away. I feel extremely fortunate to have made the call right away to press charges before it got worse.
He had the classic response of an abuser. He denied he had done anything to me, said it was a shoving match and continued his denial through the whole process. I had bruises and police photographs so I had no doubt what had occurred. I was so traumatized that at times I did forget what had happened and had to ask my friends to tell me again so I would believe it. He is still on probation (the assault was over a year ago).
It was very hard for me to watch this video but I was so pleased to see that the abuser is safely tucked away in jail and this woman is free of his wrath. I wonder about the kids, after so many years of seeing their mom tortured, what will become of them? How can they grow up to be men who do not hurt women?
That raises a question: is there any such good research cross-comparing abusers and their political views? Paging Sarah in Chicago!I wonder how early it’s possible to tell when some guy is truly a future domestic abuser…?
Our (16-year old) daughter broke up with her boyfriend (also 16) a year ago because he was getting too possessive and trying to dominate her. After the breakup, he has engaged in borderline stalking-type behavior. (Mind you, this boy is the son of a psychologist…) They go to a small private high school, so there’s not a lot of places to avoid him, unless we change schools.
I can see where it might be easy to dismiss this behavior as that of an immature punkass (apologies to Punkass Marc!) who is still being controlled by his hormones (especially in our patriarchy-saturated culture). However, it does make me wonder if this is more than just a “normal” adolescent “phase”, and more of a precursor to more severe behavior in the future.
Having had one sister whose first husband turned out to be an abuser, it makes me really wonder how early this stuff starts…
Setya,
Before it got worse? That’s a horror story and a half! I’m sure your ex has learned to ease future victims into the pattern more gently, by now. You’re lucky he escalated so suddenly.
I’m certainly no expert, but the fact that their mother got out when she did can only help their attitudes. The fact that the son videotaping the abuse was troubled enough to “edit” his taping I think demonstrates in a small way that he knew what he was seeing was wrong.
That’s serious business, MikeEss. There’s a new National Teen Dating Abuse Hotline up (24 hrs a day) at 1-866-331-9474; do please give them a call.
It starts now. MikeEss (may I call you Mike?). Speak to the DV unit of your local or state police force. If they don’t take it seriously, you might want to put all you can afford into hiring a private detective to document the young man’s behaviour. A cousin of mine had this same problem with her boyfriend. (They were both in their 30s.) She lingered in Intensive Care for a long, long time before she died. He’s still in prison. (And has a girlfriend who hates anybody who speaks of ill of him, I may add.)For christ’s sake, take it seriously, please. I know that you do, but think about what you can do now and do it.
Libertarian:
Of course, this is, like pretty much everything else you say around here, mitigated by the fact that you clearly don’t have the slightest fucking clue what you’re talking about.
seeker6079 (may I call you 6079?), we’re monitoring the situation, made it clear to our daughter she is not to be alone with him, and have consulted the school psychologist and made the school administration aware.
She only sees the punk when they’re at school, and we live 50-miles from his home.
If he escalates we will take any and all measures to ensure her safety.
I wish she would have remained unmarked by stupidity like this, but…
***
“(may I call you Mike?)”
Certainly. I’m just so used to there always being multiple “mikes” around (here, there and everywhere) that I usually try to add something distinguishing…
I forgot to add that our daughter has a lot of friends at school who are aware of this creep and look out for her as well…
I’m glad to hear that, but I’m not surprised; I’m sorry if I came across as patronizing. My small excuse is that worry plays hell with tact.
The distance between the two homes is reassuring; it deprives the little creep of many “oh, but it’s NORMAL for me to be here, officer!” excuses.
Something about this article struck me as terribly Dionysian, all about force, open rage, force and lack of control. So it made me think about alcoholism. I think this is a pretty good article:
http://alcalc.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/34/6/824
And I think about how important this issue was to the early women activists. It makes me want to read about the Temperance Movement. I hope Unitary Moonbat will do a proper battification…
just musing along, nothing to see here…
“Isn’t making one’s sons tape it child abuse?”
I would think so. I don’t know if it was included in the charges, but that did seem to be a part of what the judge was referring to when he talked about the husband/father doing more damage than if he had committed a murder.
Setya - that sounds really similar to my cousins’ experience. Only they’d been together for longer and she’d married the guy by that time.
I find it interesting that she talked about her father being very overbearing as well. Her natural instincts for what was healthy in relationships may have been off to begin with, so it may have taken a higher level of creepiness for her to see it as such, and by then he’s had more time to work on her. Not necessarily, though.
Even more importantly, I think, is that even before her husband cut her off from her family, you don’t get the impression that it would have been easy for her to get their help until the husband had become so abusive that leaving would be dangerous. (Again, I could be wrong, though.)
One of the things that always struck me about my cousin’s close call was that she was afraid? ashamed? to tell her immediate family at first. I was one of the first people she told, and we’ve never been close. I’ve always suspected it was because she would be able to handle rejection from me better (not being as close) and because she figured I’d be likely to tell her to get the hell out of there (being the militant feminist in the family).
Godmonkey makes a very good point. A lot of times these when do get locked into a Stockholmsyndrome scenario. That and they are systematically torn down to nothing by their abusers, cut off from any sort of life, including family. This woman and case imparticular was just that. I saw the whole story on a TV program. She has three children. Her oldest being a girl around the age of 18 when she finally was able to get out. The daughter REFUSED to side with her mother. The daughter had witnessed all of the abuse and absolutely thought her mother was the problem. The daughter lived with the father until he was finally arrested and jailed. The woman explains that her relationship with her daughter is still strained today, but that they are working on it. She even explains that he didn’t start out an evil hateful monster. From the outside its very easy for all of us to say “Why did she stay with him for a second, if he was so awful”. BECAUSE HE WASN’T. Dennis is right, we have to change society’s perception of DV. It isn’t the woman’s fault!
First comment got held up in moderation, MikeEss. I wanted to strongly suggest you call the National Teen Dating Abuse Hotline: 1 866 331 9474… its open twenty-four hours.
I’m just going to assume that you’re being mean by trying to get a rise out of people who have been in relationships like this. Because nobody could possibly be that stupid. So stop.
it kills me that because it happened to be a black man committing the crimes that for many white viewers it reinforced racist assumptions and allowed them to other the whole thing. *sigh*
I had the same thought. As a black woman my stomach lurched from the video and i will admit I felt even worse when I saw it was a black man. Not to diminish the trauma and abuse that white women go through but growing up in this country I recognize that the first thing most people would see was the KKK version of the scary black man society (ne, white women) need to be protected from. I don’t want to offend and for those of you who may wonder why it even matters, in cases like this (or regular crime) the black community if often blamed as a whole, reading the youtube comments I was sad to see that it very well was the case and there’s an arrogant air of “white men don’t do that,” etc. when we all know they do. It’s also sad that it took a video tape for the punishment to be so severe, I have to wonder what would have happened had it not been taped.
I am happy that she and her kids got out, and she no longer has to worry about her abuser, most victims of abuse don’t have that security.
Random related article…….I saw an article about a woman who expanded the Woman’s Shelter in her home town to include animals. She had volunteered at an animal shelter and one day a lady and her small children came in very visibly upset with several of their family animals. She explained that she was trying to escape her husband and couldn’t leave the animals out of fear that her husband would kill them, but couldn’t take them with her either. It touched this woman’s heart and she has since created a shelter and sort of foster care system for animals of domestic violence. She and her network help women find homes for their animals so that they can escape DV. Eventually they try and reconnect the women with their animals if at all possible. Very cool thing! She said alot of times women won’t leave because they fear that sort of thing. Bravo to her!!!
Mickle:
To clarify — We had been together for 5.5 years and married for 3.5 before all this transpired. There were some signs of his abusive tendencies but nothing like what eventually happened.
The other thing that guys like “Libertarian” can’t imagine is the shame. You feel like such a worthless loser when you’re the victim of chronic domestic abuse that you’ll let it just keep on happening than admit to any of the shiny happy people what kind of Hellhole you’re living in.
I’m perfectly aware how that doesn’t begin to make sense in the clean, wholly logical world which libertarians like to imagine we all inhabit, but as Galileo said, “e pur si muove.”
And it doesn’t ever go away either, not even decades later. If you’re really lucky and you work at it, you can drag it into your coffin with you instead of bequeathing it to your own kids.
How have we managed to raise such twisted fucks?
The only thing that makes me feel better about these twisted fucks is that they’re losers who sit at home all day watching Judge Mathis and would piss themselves if a woman came near them.
This site (or some of the commenters here) is remarkably hostile and looking to think the worst of people who don’t buy into their views 100%. The fact is that I’ve aggressively prosecuted a number a DV cases on behalf of (women) clients, and I’m very familiar with both the law and the literature. I’ve seen serious DV close up and have a good feel for the dynamics of it. That does not change my initial statement that I’m always surprised that, after literally getting the s… kicked out of her, a woman will frequently go back to the same guy. Even after repeated episodes. I don’t deny that it happens, nor did I say it was her fault, or that she was asking for it. That is something some of you read into it.
The Sister, do you happen to remember the name of that organization or have a link to their web site? It sounds like the kind of place I’d really like to donate money to, and I’m sure a lot of other people would too. Thanks!
So, then, Libertarian, what’s your response to the many, many good reasons people have put up here as to why a woman will frequently “go back to the same guy” even after “getting the shit kicked out of her”?
And I will absolutely cop to being mean, nasty, uncivil, etc. etc. And not incidentally, really frigging tired of hearing that question asked ad nauseam while ignoring the answers.
Ask and you shall receive:
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/03/05/news/coastal/3407203143.txt
Here is an article about The Animal Safehouse Program. The director is Christine Hartline. It is interesting to note that Christine Hartline is a coucelor (specifically for eating disorders….) But has experience with DV and abuse. I believe there is an email address in the article to contact her.
But just incase, here is the website for the specific animal shelter that helps with The Animal Safehouse Program and also Christine Hartline’s email address at the shelter. I’m sure you can google the program name and find all sorts of information. I’d also encourage those who are interested to contact local animal shelters as there might be a current program in your area.
www.rchumanesociety.org
chartline@rchumanesociety.org
http://www.rchumanesociety.org/programs/safehouse.php
Here is a more specific link to the animal safehouse program…
Thanks, The Sister! I also found that the Humane Society of the United States has links to all of the state Animal Safehouse Programs.
You can also go to the Humane Society website (www.hsus.org), type the words “safe haven” into the search box, and you’ll get a list of similar programs around the country.
Prosecutors have clients?
Um - do you think that’s because the commenters you’re referring to are often victims or former victims of domestic violence, and the “views” you’re not “buying into 100%” are their views that DV is a man’s issue, not a woman’s, and that they, the commenters, are NOT somehow “strange” or “weird” or “wrong” for not having run away from their abuser? That they, the commenters, are “incomprehensible?” That, in the face of a full explanation of said baffling incomprehensibility, you dismiss it all with a “whatever. Girls are weird” type response?
Man, I can’t understand why there’s hostility.
Well, Rumblelizard beat me to it, and its less trouble…
I do not totally agree with Libertarian, but I understand what he is trying to say. However in slight defense of him, yes, prosecutors have “clients”. They do represent the state but on behalf of the victim of whatever crime. This is only in criminal matters. Its typical for them to refer to these people as “clients”.
And to just throw a wrench in all of this, as small as the number may be, men can also be victims of domestic violence.
I had an emotionally abusive father, who shared — with my abuser — a reputation as the nicest guy in the world.
Yup, both appeared at first, and to those outside the relationship, as nice guys.
So my abuser’s slow buildup to abuse and denigration felt familiar and not unexpected.
Nice guy who finds fault with me, hmm where have I lived that before?
My mother eventually committed suicide, saw nowhere else to go in 1960 society before the word “domestic abuse” had even been invented.
Luckily for me, my emotionally abusive father had almost never been physically abusive to me, so when boyfriend escalated to threatened physical abuse I bailed on him.
But that was after two years of being cossetted much of the time, and resisting his control (he alternated nice guy behavior and chipping away at my self-confidence with trying to browbeat me into marriage.)
I got out in time, and six months later he was engaged to another woman (who, when I ran into her, was already developing dark circles under her eyes and a badgered look.)
My father skated through the early part of a second marriage to a woman who never opened her mouth, so no opportunity to disagree with him. When that poor woman finally resisted his control it wasn’t a pretty picture, either.
I warned third wife, but couldn’t bear to stick around to watch the cycle again.
Obviously, it makes no sense to blame the women victims, when obviously the pattern of the abuse starts with the men, who don’t hit their bosses or emotionally abuse other men, because there would be consequences for those actions.
So men abusing women “because they can get away with it” is indeed part of equation: the term “domestic violence” hadn’t been invented when I went through it, and I can tell you from personal experience that the police couldn’t have been less interested that my played-football-in-college boyfriend was threatening 4′ 11″ me.
(And later his mother told me that his “couldn’t be a nicer guy” father had beaten her throught their marriage “and it ruined my life.”)
I thought that might be true, but I wanted to get out ahead of the mocking in case it wasn’t.
I must confess, though, that I lack a certain degree of sympathy for women who get into relationships with abusive maniacs knowing that they are abusive maniacs. The man who killed my cousin had a gf who sat through the trial, listened to all the evidence about how he brutally killed her, listened to the evidence of former gfs so who were still traumatized by his brutalizations (note: my cousin never knew about them — their existence only came out through the murder investigation)… Yet she still doesn’t believe a word about any of it, and stands loyally by his side, glared at the family, (etc). And when he gets out he will abuse and kill her. And a part of me shrugs and thinks, “well, there’s Darwin in action: some people are too stupid to live”. Is that cruel, or just a cold-blooded acceptance that personal responsibility sometime extends just past one’s own fatal mistakes?
Libertarian, a number of us have tried to explain why women don’t leave abusive men, despite the pain which your dismissive comments have caused us. I will try one more time:
1. The relationships generally are not abusive at the start (for me, there was not even any emotional abuse that I can identify for the first SIX MONTHS). 2. Emotional abuse is introduced first, very subtlly and then slowly escalated. The first signs are often masked as ‘constructive criticism’ and couched in praise and complements. The criticism becomes harsher very slowly (This process took 2 1/2 years for me).
3. By the time the physical violence starts the victim’s life has often become so intertwined with the abusers - common residence, children together, and so on - that leaving means losing everything. Moreover, the abuser has separated the victim from family and friends. I had been separated from family and friends, but we had no children and no posessions to speak of, so leaving was relatively easy for me. Also, he escalated to violence too quickly and with no apologies. If he had given it another six months, things might have been different.
4. Leaving is dangerous. These men kill - they kill their wives/girlfriends, their children, their pets and anyone who happens to be visiting when they arrive with gun in hand. My ex called me at one point and said “I don’t know if I love you or want to kill you.” Luckily for me he was having affairs with two other women at the time, so he had plenty to distract him.
I don’t know how I can be more clear or more calm. I don’t understand how this can not make sense to you.
I should, in fairness, point out that the woman in question is otherwise sane and functional and reasonably successful. If one tried to have her committed as a danger to herself one would be laughed out of the hearing.
Really? I can’t imagine why the posters at a feminist blog, many of whom are victims of domestic violence themselves, would be so upset by someone saying “Why didn’t she just leave”?
You know what? I’m going to have to come right out and call you a liar. If this were true, you’d have seen at least a few of your clients put in intensive care or the ground by their abusers after said abusers ignored a restraining order, and you’d know exactly why they’re reluctant to leave.
The only proof to the contrary that I will accept is a real name, and a way to check your case record.
Well, now a number of people have told you why it happens. What is your response?
No, you just asked why she didn’t just leave…which implies that it’s the obvious solution to her problem…which implies that she’s foolish not to do so. It doesn’t take much “reading into” at all, and that’s why people are furious with you. The fact that you didn’t speak the actual words only means you’re trying for plausible deniability, which impresses no one here.
And, on the very slim chance that this wasn’t what you meant, you need to be aware that that is the message you sent.
I seem to remember having another conversation with you where it turned out that you only considered actual, immediate physical force to count as “coercion”. Is this another example of that philosophy? Sure, she’ll end up homeless and he may come after her and she doesn’t want to leave the kids alone with him but she’s still physically capable of leaving, so why doesn’t she?
seeker6079 - I don’t think the case that you’re referring to is very representative. What does this have to do with the experience of the woman in the video, the of other women in this thread, or the vast majority of victims of domestic violence?
…and? That doesn’t “throw a wrench” into anything. No one has said anything that disputes this, or made any arguments that are damaged by this fact. In fact, I seem to recall a few people expressing sympathy for abused men who either aren’t taken seriously or are accused of being the abuser.
kate, I never said that it was representative, nor that it offers any insight into the vast majority of cases. I wasn’t aware that discussion posts were limited to discussions of the vast majority. It happens to be the domestic violence case with which I am most familiar: the murder of a cherished family member.
Further upthread the discussion turned around Libertarian’s wilfully blind query about why women in abusive relationships stay there, and the responding posts lay out clearly the reasons for this, turning specifically on the development of abuse within a relationship where there were no prior indicia that that husband was a controlling monster. I was — and am — puzzled why this particular woman is linked up with and remains with a man who is a proven controlling monster, and a vicious, cruel murderer to boot.
The guy is in his 50s and a Libertarian. The motivations of other humans are not in his field of expertise.
This site (or some of the commenters here) is remarkably hostile and looking to think the worst of people who don’t buy into their views 100%.
Most people who hang out at political blogs and comment regularly do so because they tend to agree with the views of the bloggers and the general environment of the blog. Why people like you and the few resident conservative trolls hang out here is a mystery to me, because I, for example, wouldn’t comment regularly at a conservative blog like I expected anyone to care what I thought. However, for you to think it worthy of comment when most people at a blog you know to be very much opposed to your own affiliatiion take issue with a thoughtless, uninformed comment you throw out is enough to make one wonder how you’ve managed to avoid wandering into traffic yet.
Seraph: exactly. The biggest flaw in the “what about the menz” arguments is that they don’t realize that they are impliedly recognizing and demonstrating the depth of male-on-female violence. The male-on-female dynamic is so statistically pronounced and overwhelming — and so likely to produce permanent injury or death — that it its very pervasiveness and seriousness tends to prevent people from realizing that female-on-male violence exists. There is no dissonance in trying to stop both types of crimes nor in providing resources to help the victims, only a question of question of allocation of resources proportionate to the problems.
That raises a question: is there any such good research cross-comparing abusers and their political views?
Just to clear up a possible misconception: “Right-Wing Authoritarian” scores correlated well with party affiliation in both houses of Congress when they looked at it, but I think not among voters or citizens in general.
You can see the graph of Congressional scores in Chapter six of the pdfs at theauthoritarians.com. The few Democrats who scored in the Republican range all seem to come from ‘conservative’ states (with one guy from Mississippi at the far edge — no Republicans from that state in the study).
I’m guessing libertarian “knows” the reasons women stay, but doesn’t really “understand” them.
facts do not allways add up to “truth” in the same way in all people’s heads.
It does make you shake your head in wonder at what some people go through, again, and again, and again.
//
Either that, or it’s an extension of the whole Libertarian thing, where even though people can tell you stuff over and over again, you never really get it until it actually happens to you.
(My favorite example being that republican congressman who hated government spending and spent a lot of time going after NIH, CDC, etc, until his wife got breast cancer. changed his tune)
Being able to get away with domestic abuse certainly greases the skids for men who would control women through violence, and a society that turns a blind eye to domestic abuse is, indeed, partly to blame.
My earlier point was simply that
“a complicated emotional/societal response that becomes pathological over time” = why women stay
is not an analogous formation to
“because they can get away with it” = why men hit.
For one thing, if “because they can” was a causal factor, it would imply that men as a rule abuse women, since, other factors being equal, all men have a similar ability to get away with it.
It seems that “why men abuse women” comprises an equally complicated pathology as “why women stay,” although it’s obviously a wholly unsympathetic one. I do think a person can’t investigate one without engaging the other.
Um, that clarification was in response to Judy Brown.
“Why people like you and the few resident conservative trolls hang out here is a mystery to me, because I, for example, wouldn’t comment regularly at a conservative blog like I expected anyone to care what I thought.”
So true…
I really wish somebody would do some research on this so we can better understand the blog trolling phenomenon…
I was simplying pointing out abused men exist. The threads had seemed a little one sided. Of course in reality, DV is pretty much one sided.
Calm down a little bit.
My point is that we need to do something as a society to stop domestic violence. Against, women, children, men and animals!
Kate, I have to disagree with you a little bit. I get the point Seeker6079 is getting at. It does relate to this conversation, maybe not specifically to people involved in this conversation, but lets look at soceity. The best example I can think of right now is OJ Simpson. He hacked his ex-wife up! There was very documented abuse in that relationship. He then went on and wrote a book about how he did it. Does the man still have a girlfriend rather regularly? Yes he does! Another example is Phil Spector. Both of these examples have very documented abuse histories, yet women flock to them. That is scary.
Ok, I’m not at all defending Libertarian, and his later comments obviously show his victim-blaming, however comment 10 doesn’t seem that way to me at all.
I could easily see how the abuse-victim’s mindset would be incomprehensible to someone who’s never been abused. There’s nothing wrong with saying you don’t understand another person’s point of view or experience.
(Correction: “Republican range” ignores the two scores from Connecticut. All other Republicans in the study fall in a relatively small, high-RWA cluster.)
Linnaeus
September 18, 2007 at 10:47 am
How about why the FUCK men hit?
That’s what baffles me. I’ve read some of the broader, theoretical views on domestic violence, and while that work does make sense to me, it’s still hard for me to connect that to the actual decision an abuser makes to hit someone he says he loves
***********************************
It amazes me how little get’s done about this particular question.
Imagine what emotional state that poor boy (the son) is in at the time that he’s filming that? He’s grown up with that!
His whole life has been seeing his dad terrorize his family.
How does that make him feel about his dad? By extrapolation, what can his internal picture of himself be? Can he have any good ideas about relationships?
Kids internalize things. I’m betting he has a big part of himself that blames himself (if I hadn’t XXX, mom wouldn’t have gotten hit; if I were bigger, I could protect mom), another part probably blames his mom (why doesn’t she leave; why does she get hit; maybe she deserves it?), and another part certainly blames his dad. Does he start thinking, “Dad’s bad, so all men are bad, so I’m bad too?”
A lot of emerging neuroscience is showing that violent people start out with a genetic predisposition to higher levels of anxiety or excitablity. These may be the babies who are really irritable or exhibit extreme seperation anxiety. PET imaging has shown there are differences that show up really early. Trauma also changes how the brain develops (for that matter, all of our experiences affect how our brain develops!) If you add trauma to this basic anxious/irritable type, you create conditions that make for a violent adolescent and adult.
I’m not being deterministic here, it’s quite possible that that young man will grow up to be a loving caring parent/sig o. However, it is much more likely than it otherwise would have been that the trauma of his home life has laid down the ground work for him to grow up being an abuser. I hope that that family gets some much needed intervention, and that someone can help that boy understand that he can grow up to be a great person.
Libertarian, why did she stay? Did you notice the part where he threatened to kill her if she left? Why do you blame her for saving her own life?
The de facto assumption that women are stupid and not to be believed is something abusers use in their favor against their victims. So, Libertarian, every time you further that message you are complicit with domestic abuse. You can’t understand how it happens….but you’re part of why it does.
I really wish somebody would do some research on this so we can better understand the blog trolling phenomenon
My theory is that smart people are more fun to hang out with than angry morons.
There’s nothing wrong with saying you don’t understand another person’s point of view or experience.
The problem is that people like Libertarian don’t know how to express this in a way that doesn’t come off like “Chicks are crazy.” No shit you don’t understand, homes. Everyone knows that, so it’s not necessary to bring it up. For once in your privileged life, your personal feelings about how you would react in the victim’s situation are not relevant here.
rowmyboat wrote:
While I understand how this instance lends itself to the success of prosecution and also to a great tv special because of the excellent documentation, it kills me that because it happened to be a black man committing the crimes that for many white viewers it reinforced racist assumptions and allowed them to other the whole thing. *sigh*
What amused and astounded me was the “She was a racist bitch who deserved what she got” comments, presumably from the black counterparts of those white viewers.
Ms Kate, Goddess of Tomato Cultivation wrote:
I’m so glad that Zog and I intervened when some micropenis was slapping his “girl” around on the T one day.
Ms Kate, I raise my afternoon beer in a toast to you. (clink)
That link on the police killed in Odessa is very informative as to why women don’t leave. A lot of the time, they’re hoping that if they stay and be quiet, the abuser won’t kill or hurt others. I’ll bet the woman in that case didn’t call the cops or family a lot because she feared what did happen would happen.
We as women are conditioned from birth to nurture and take care of others, to the point that we do not protect ourselves. We let guys abuse us, but when it comes to our kids, we stand up and get them out. We put no value on ourselves, especially if we come from abusive backgrounds. It is very difficult to change patterns of old, especially when everybody thinks your guy is a wonderful nice “gentleman.”
We women are biologically designed to nurture while men are born to hunt and conquer. Domestic abuse is a very complex issue. If people are going to engage in discussion about it, we must respect the fact that our experiences aren’t all the same, so try not to discount what others have shared.
I myself still miss the last man I was with and he was so mentally abusive that I was on the verge of suicide when I walked away.
Easy. Hot babes Male/Female Gay/Straight 24/7.I personally don’t ask for more out of life.
And just a note about the abuser/cop killer in Odessa to stiffle some of the racism talk, I believe was white.
And an update on the Odessa Police Officers, the third officer, did die from his wounds. His funeral was today. Very sad.
Youtube needs a method of easy reporting of abusive comments, and then they need to follow up on it. Their terms of service claims they have no tolerance for it, but they let it go on this way. I sent a report in to them asking for any easy method of reporting, and I ask others to do the same.
Thanks for the link, Sis. I think that an animal safety program is a really good idea; I know one woman who got her dog in the middle of the night when a woman knocked on her door, crying kids in car, and said that she couldn’t take the dog with her but couldn’t leave him behind, either. You fill in the gaps, and see how it plays out.
DV is like a slow-motion kidnapping, I think. It’s the best way to understand the dynamics of the situation.
The woman in Odessa was so fearful she ran to her neighbor’s house, made the 911 call and hung up before telling the department he had a weapon. This abuser killed three people and would have continued with his rampage had he not been shot himself (not mortally). The level of violence is simply not understood by onlookers. I don’t believe it is understood by the victims. Abusers have a different agenda than the rest of us. Which is a big part of the problem.
I can name the three things that happened in a small space of time that was the final push to leave my exhusband:
1. A former fiancee’s death made the tv news because he happened to try and rob a 7-11 and there was an off duty police officer outside at the pay phone making a call.
I looked at where I was with hubby #1 and where I would be with fiancee (who I left because he got violent with me once, only once) and realized I was in no better place.
2. The cycle popped which caused me to run to the bathroom so I could lock the door before he hit me. I couldn’t get the door closed in time and for the first time I fought back.
I hit him in the mouth so hard that it drew blood which spattered all over the bathroom. I then simply stopped fighting back, and when he was done hitting me I went to the livingroom and sat down.
The blood on the wall told me that “pacifist me” was being turned to violence by the violence I was living with. It further told me that it wouldn’t be long before I visited that violence onto my children - so instead of being their champion, I’d become their abuser. I wasn’t going to let that happen.
3. A friend laid it out for me in no uncertain terms; “You either make the concious choice to stay with him and except his abuse - and stop feeling sorry for yourself and crying about it because you made the choice OR you take the kids and GET OUT!
Those were the three things were the final pieces that pushed me over the edge to leave. There had been rungs built on that ladder for years and months before. And I - I had been ready to leave before, but once when I found out I was pregnant with child number 2. I felt that I could not leave. I can also remember that day very well, while everyone in the office was excited (because I got the news there) I felt two ways, excited but also in complete dispair, because it meant that I would have to stay.
Now there were also somethings that happened in the 2 to 3 years prior to my decision to leave and divorce was finalized (which were about 18 months appart. Not that I wanted it that way, but exhusband dragged it out so he could maintain power and control - I mean, come one just put the make and model of your frigging truck on the division of property papers - it’s your truck, I don’t want it).
What helped me though, which I hope honors them somewhat for their sacrifice was several deaths due to domestic violence in the Denver metro area, including one case that happened a year before I left my soon-to-be ex; the shooting of Jeanne Elliott Esq. inside the (divorce)court by her client’s husband. Those deaths and violence all served to give me and my children more protection from those around me, from a hotel front desk who took it upon themselves to screen all my callers and limit information at a time when this didn’t happen, when I was in hiding and the shelter was full, to the phone company changing my phone number in less than 5 hours (unheard of in the early 1980s) when my phone number was inadvertly put on legal papers that my soon to be ex got.
Most women, other than those doing the same thing at the same time in the Denver metro area didn’t get - and in many places still don’t that level of protection and understanding, etc.
I have always been aware that I owe a debt to them.
Discord,
I sort of disagree with you. To say that women do not put value on themselves isn’t exactly fair. I put great value in myself. My sister could probably tell you this.
I think in an abusive relationship alot of times, it isn’t that the woman put no value on herself, but she was put down so much and consistently told she had no value that she started to believe it. More like her value was taken away.
Humans as a whole are natural hunters. That isn’t just for men. Nor is the devaluing ones self only women.
To me, bringing up these outlying cases of crazies who choose to be with men who they ought to know will be violent from the outset is like focusing on women who lie about being raped in rape threads. Sure it happens - what’s your point?
Kate, I think it happens alot more than you might think. Those were just two abusers that happen to be in the news today. Seeker was talking about a woman who too didn’t want to believe in the abuse her “boyfriend” had done. And what about all the women who write to and become involved with these men while they are in prison. Ooh another name comes to mind. Scott Peterson. How about the woman that was ON HIS JURY!! Found him guilty of killing his wife and unborn child and has since developed a relationship with him via email and phone calls etc. The mentality of “ooh it can’t happen to me” is a dangerous one too.
I. Don’t. Buy. It.
Seriously. If you’ve ever paid attention to what one of those women has to say, you should be able to understand what’s going on in an abusive relationship. So I can’t honestly believe you’ve ever been a DV prosecutor.
Unless you only did the minor work and/or feigned you listened to your clients while wondering what paint color should you choose for your new car.
The fact that you’ve been paying zero to none attention to the responses you got in this thread leads me to believe the latter, actually.
“Really? I can’t imagine why the posters at a feminist blog, many of whom are victims of domestic violence themselves, would be so upset by someone saying “Why didn’t she just leave”?”
Yeah, complaints like that now make me think of this post by Echidne.
(from an article she quotes)
So, someone asks a stupid question (one that’s already answered) or makes a stupid point (one that’s been debunked several times over). Lots of people bother to take the time to point back to the original answer or debunking. Often with more than a hint of exasperation or suspicions cast upon the character of the person who missed the obvious. Question asker thinks everyone is being mean and closed minded.
Yeah, that sounds like feminism blogging 101, but it’s amazing how often we forget that this is the dynamic, and that the dynamic permeates to all kinds of discussions that touch on feminism (and other things).
Seriously, Libertarian, wtf is the point of asking the question? (Again and again and again.) If you wanted an answer, you’ve gotten one several times over. You had one several times over before you even posted the question. It’s not like there haven’t been studies done on this or anything.
If you can’t imagine thinking/feeling that way, it’s not our fault you lack empathy. If it’s neither of these reasons, then the only thing left seems to the desire to ask a rhetorical question more along the lines of “what kind of sick bastard would do such a thing?”
Your inability to see that the question has already been answered several times over leads us all to believe it’s one or both of the latter reasons. And you can’t really blame us for reacting negatively to either of those last two reasons. It’s called not being stupid and not lacking in empathy.
I wanted to add that I had lunch with the police officer who killed him a few weeks after the incident. I wanted to make sure he {the cop} was okay because I knew this was suicide by cop.
The police officer said he knew it too because if my former fiancee hadn’t have been standing over him with a huge rock ready to crack the cop’s head open, he (the cop) would have perfered getting him help instead of shooting — based on the conversation and report he was trying to build with build with my former financee prior to him running into an empty lot, the cop tripping and former fiancee turning around picking up a large stone and baically making it a you or me senario.
The Sister,
When you put it that way, it makes sense. The “It can’t happen to me” mentality is a huge problem, especially with young women. But just throwing those cases out into thread with a lot of discussion of why women don’t leave abusive men without any further comment tends to imply that we’ve all asked for it on some level. Maybe I’m just hypersensitive.
Mickle -
I answer, not because I really think I can change their minds - I hope I can, but I hold no delusions - I answer because someone, a lurker, may be reading who NEEDS to be pointed or pushed over the “GET OUT” edge.
It’s part of the debt I talked about.
The verbal abuse really gets to me, especially the whole “You only think you care about your children”. I would just feel dead instead if someone I loved said stuff like that to me.
Perhaps. But, given the context which I provided, far more goddamned insensitive and insulting.And tactless as hell, I may add.
Being as anti-violence as the rest of us doesn’t give you license to say things like that I’m implying that that my cousin asked for it on some level. There is a simple difference in this life between the vast majority of people who are blindsided by cruelty and the tiny minority that walk into it with both eyes wide open. The fact that there are such people is a disturbing human riddle and necessary to note and try to stop.
Seeker, exactly my point! I guess I didn’t verbalize that. Domestic violence is a huge circle that affects many people in different ways. And when women throw themselves into a situation, such as dating OJ Simpson, you can’t help but be angry because they are furthering the violence. Its as if they are saying that behavior is acceptable. There is a huge difference between those that are blindsided by cruelty and those that almost welcome it. But in reality, domestic violence is domestic violence, no matter what sort of package its wrapped up in. And all of it needs to stop!
Its hard to feel empathy or even sympathy for someone who has the mentality of “it can’t/won’t happen to me” and when it does are shocked. (Strictly speaking about the women who ignore the prior attrocities of their lovers or what not).
You’re right. I am very sorry.
Thank you. Accepted with respect.
The best example I can think of right now is OJ Simpson. He hacked his ex-wife up! There was very documented abuse in that relationship. He then went on and wrote a book about how he did it. Does the man still have a girlfriend rather regularly? Yes he does! Another example is Phil Spector. Both of these examples have very documented abuse histories, yet women flock to them. That is scary.
That’s startlingly close to the Nice Guy® whine. Because some asshole suckers a woman or two into sleeping with him doesn’t mean women “flock” to him.
Its hard to feel empathy or even sympathy for someone who has the mentality of “it can’t/won’t happen to me” and when it does are shocked. (Strictly speaking about the women who ignore the prior attrocities of their lovers or what not).
I’m utterly uninterested in worrying endlessly about women being imperfect when they are coupled with men who are evil. The latter strikes me as the real issue.
I helped with an animal rescue situation caused by DV, actually, the mother wanted to get out, but worried that he would take it out on the animals, and wanted them to have homes. It wasn’t my area, I was visiting, but the people I was staying with, my mother in law now actually, found homes for them and I helped to move them. It was a worrysome situation because we didn’t know if he was going to come back (there was a warrant for his arrest, and he skipped down as soon as that happened..but who knows?). It was a few dogs and cats, a pygmy goat a horse and a pair of pigs (one of which got loose and dragged me for a good while until I hit some barbed wire. Ouch).
All I’m saying is that this woman couldn’t leave, couldn’t hide out until she knew that her farm animals were safe and taken care of. So this shit does happen. I imagine what people think about their kids…
No, it’s not easy. Not easy at all. And as much as I think and hope that women in that type of situation should get out. Who doesn’t? (Ok, strike that.) I recognize that it’s very difficult to do in our society….AND OUR ECONOMY, and I will try my damnest to never blame the victim.
“Its hard to feel empathy or even sympathy for someone who has the mentality of “it can’t/won’t happen to me” and when it does are shocked. (Strictly speaking about the women who ignore the prior attrocities of their lovers or what not).”
Why? How much time does society spend trying to convince women that if they do this and don’t do that and so on and so forth that none of those bad things that happen to women who don’t follow the rules will happen to them?
Why is it so surprising that some women cling to the idea that they can control what happens to them by just having dinner ready on time or by not being “mouthy”? When you factor in not just the trauma of the abuse itself, but the way society reacts to women who’ve been abused, the idea that you can’t control it–that some men will abuse, and they don’t come with warning labels, but you’ll be damaged goods if you wind up with one–can be a hugely terrifying thought.
As I watched the video, I was surprised by how unsurprised I was at the abuser’s words. That’s how I talk to myself when I’m hurting and depressed. Hell, it’s how I talk to myself the instant I make a mistake. Hearing someone else say it would just confirm what I already thought.
I have had someone I loved verbally abuse me like that, turn everything into an attack, accuse me of being stupid and irrational and naive and unrealistic. He didn’t live with me; it was done over the phone. Once I hung up on him in mid-sentence. Every time I think of this I still want to cry and throw up — but I immediately called him back. And apologized for hanging up.
To which he said “I must have hit a nerve.” And started in again.
But I loved him. I’d loved him for two years at that point. I’d felt such an intense bond with him; it seemed we were two halves of the same person. Maintaining that bond with him was worth any sacrifice and worth any pain. Besides, I’d always turned to him to analyze and advise me on any question. He seemed to know things about me I didn’t know myself. Maybe he was right. I should listen to what he had to say. Anyway, I had to calm him down, keep the peace, make everything okay again.
I was only seventeen. So was he. We weren’t married. I lived with my parents and he lived half an hour away with his parents. Breaking up with him changed nothing in terms of where I would live, where I went to school, where I went to church. But still, when I finally decided I had to cut him off, I felt like the very foundation of my world was gone. I didn’t even know who I was. I’d planned to spend my whole life with him, and I didn’t know what to do.
It’s all too easy for me to understand that if I had been married to him, if we had lived together, had children, if he controlled the money — how could I have left? Not only my emotional life, but my physical life, would have been destroyed.
Preying mantis,
Some men come with warning labels. Sticking with my example of OJ Simpson (presently). Doesn’t make what they do any better. And I mean in the last 13 years. If you willingly date someone with a known history of violence, such as OJ Simpson, you have to take some responsibility for what happens. His wife may have not known how violent he could be, but at that point how could she have known. I am not blaming her. Frankly she did almost everything she could to protect herself from him. I am by no means condoning what an abuser does. IT IS NEVER OK. But if you know the man you are dating is an abuser, with violent tendencies, and killed his wife, why are you then shocked when the cycle starts with you?? This probably falls in line with the idea of “Ooh I can change him”.
Amanda, I agree, evil men is far more important than the crazies that love them. Why a man hits is the real issue. And what can we do to change it should be the focus.
(Women do flock to OJ Simpson, probably not at the same levels as they do for ooh, Justin Timberlake, but women still throw themselves at this man! Its weird and scary!)And he has dooped more than one or two in recent years to sleep with him. Frankly, I’d avoid this man at all cost! If he was walking down the street, I’d cross the street it avoid him. Thats what I was really getting at. IT helps that his violence has been broadcast around the world, where in reality most men’s prior histories are vastly unknown or lied about. Alot easier to avoid OJ Simpson than the “nice guy” next door. I do get that. Which I think ultimatley was Seeker’s point. If you KNOW these people are violent why would you associate with them????
IF ONLY! If only it were truly unusual!
clytemnestra
Yeah, I’ve been known to make similar type comments for the similar reasons.
That and it’s good practice for unavoidable real life arguments.
I wasn’t questioning why people were answering, but spelling out the mentality of the people asking such questions - or at least the ones asking the same question over and over again. Not that anyone here needs it explained to them, but just like the answers to stupid questions, there could be lurkers who do…..and we all could use some reminding every once in a awhile.
“A lot easier to avoid OJ Simpson than the “nice guy” next door. I do get that. Which I think ultimatley was Seeker’s point. If you KNOW these people are violent why would you associate with them????”
I’m going to guess that again, it’s because women aren’t stupid. These are men with power, and it’s useful for them to have women championing their causes, so it’s a relatively safe place to be for some women.
Plus, while women aren’t stupid, we are as arrogant and as likely to look through the world with blinders on as men are. So a lot of these women really do believe that they will never get hurt because they don’t deserve to get hurt, the other women are lying, etc. Which is part of how the cycle works, because if you believe that, then when he does hurt you, you’re already convinced he only hurts people who deserve it.
Mickle, that makes a lot of sense.
Its still scary that women wouldn’t immediately run from danger when they see it though! OR that they even seek this sort of thing out. (Like women who write to and fall in love with these dangerous sorts that are ALREADY in prison for their violence.)
Libertarian: I feel pretty safe in assuming you are a male. A white male would have a very hard time understanding the dynamics of economic and emotional oppression, save for a small, silent few. You should shut up your privilege, take the humble stance that you couldn’t possibly understand and attempt to exercise empathy. Although I am sure Ayn Rand might turn in her grave for your moment of attempted self deprecation for understanding, I wonder if she’d have wanted someone to save her if she was being beaten, no?
My father was an habitual abuser and mysoginst to the core. I was his favorite target. The rest of the family worked hard at being compliant and was comfortable with me being the target most of the time. I don’t blame them, they did what humans will do to survive.
I do blame the people in the neighborhood who could hear his ranting and raving through the open windows of the house all summer, the people who witnessed my father berating and kicking me at a church picnic, the cops who refused to remove me from the home even though I begged. Money and class stature were what kept him respected despite his known domestic behavior.
I married a man who didn’t beat me (my one requirement) but was just as controlling and emotionally berating. He controlled me for years until I decided I’d start working toward leaving him. It took all I had to figure out how to turn the tables slowly and gain control enough to leave — on my own. I had to teach myself to drive in secret, with a car I bought in secret, convince him that my getting a job would be good, paid him to stay at home (appealed to his laziness), etc.
He never worked or took financial responsibility for anything. If he had been a provider, leaving him might have been much harder. The price I paid for leaving him after we had three children together (he didn’t ‘believe’ in birth control, sex was his god given right, so don’t preach at me about the number of children I had. It was a tool of control and he wanted many more, in the context of that relationship, it took a lot to be able to sleep on the couch away from to keep from having more children).
I lived in poverty for years, unable to find good paying jobs, having lived a good portion of my adult life in captivity, learning few skills tradeable in the economy. Factor in also how he absconded on child support as his final payback and also attempted to manipulate the children against me long distance (the video gives a perfect example of the emotional abuse I went through and how he used the children against me — a power tool to hurt a mother indeed).
I guess if women all came out of high school with the ability to earn what a man can earn when he’s barely literate, then there’d be more women leaving.
I guess if people would stop holding onto the fucking fantasy that marriages must be held together no matter what, there’d be more women leaving.
And most importantly, if our society didn’t make women feel responsible for being the family martyr, the abuser wouldn’t have half the weight he has over his victim.
And to Ms. Kate: I hear you. I also am an angry, ball busting, self centered, fickle and driven to succeed on my own terms BITCH. I’ve been around the block and I left that neighborhood a long time ago. Punching an asshat or throwing him across a room can actually be quite cathartic. I know.
“Some men come with warning labels.”
I think you kind of missed my point. If you’ve been socially conditioned to believe that if you do everything right, you won’t get raped/abused/whatever, then that doesn’t leave a whole hell of a lot of room for men who are going to rape/abuse/whatever no matter what you do.
In that worldview, there aren’t “abusers” or “rapists”–men who hurt even good women and nice girls who did everything right–except in the over-the-top cartoony pure-evil way, and you can tell who those are because of the evil laughter and Snidely Whiplash moustache. If you meet a man and he genuinely seems to be a great, charming, loving, considerate guy, then he can’t be one of those frenzied monsters hiding in a dark alley, right? He can’t be an abuser or a rapist, because those men are monsters and he’s charming and considerate and listens to you and buys you flowers. It’s not like even OJ Simpson beats the hell out of a woman right after meeting her, then tells her he’s going to kill her before the appetizer comes on their first date.
So the guy with a history of abuse not fitting the idea of “abuser” translates into the woman he hurt before having done something to deserve it. Something that you–rule-knowing, rule-respecting you–won’t do, so you don’t have to worry about any of that. You don’t need those warning labels because you know how to avoid danger.
If you accept that there aren’t things you can do or not do to keep from being abused–that an abuser will abuse regardless of his partner’s behavior–then you get your warning label for men like OJ and Peterson and other big-name batterers and murderers. You get to avoid men who a quick Google search will tell you are bad news. But what about the other 148.9 million men in the country? You have to accept that any man you wind up with who hasn’t got a known history of violence could still turn out to be an abuser. You have to accept that any man you go on a date with or have a drink with or get to be friends with could turn out to be a rapist. You either don’t need the warning label, or you only get it .1% of the time you need it.
Can you still blame some women for sticking to the idea that they can control whether or not the men in their lives will hurt them?
I kinda think OJ is a bad example, but hey, he’s in the news and if he really didn’t do it, as is somewhat unlikely, he certainly is alot like many guys who would.
I was reading some of the comments by The Sister and others. There are so many people who just can’t believe that what happened to others cannot happen to them. Some people can’t really believe in a dynamic future that they have no control over. So I wandered around the web, found this interesting website.
http://www.geocities.com/changes1611//sins22lies14a.html
What really got me as relevant to the thread:
We lie to ourselves when we tell ourselves that we lie “for the benefit of others”:
” As we begin, we must understand the definition of a lie. Merriam Webster’s Dictionary defines lying as telling untruths, defrauding another, and deceiving another for personal gain. Colloquially, lying has come to mean to not tell the “entire truth”, thus being economical with the truth. Lying typically has attached to it a rather negative connotation but let’s begin by looking at the benefit of lying and deceiving others.
Lying altruistically can bring about harmony in a relationship. This act of fibbing generally refers to telling “white lies” to protect the feelings of another. These lies are typically of lower importance. In Peterson’s Australian study, Deception in intimate relationships, it was found that couples closely involved tell predominantly insignificant lies to one another. It was also found that subjects, who reported telling such lies, did so as a means of conflict avoidance.”
“Lying and Deception in Relationships”
http://www.muohio.edu/psybersite/bars/lying.htx
Is staying in a violent relationship something about lying altruistically on a large scale, to oneself? To seek harmony inside yourself and your children in a sea of discord? Even if the lies to yourself are true? You’re protecting your children, and you really *are* protecting your children. You also have decided to protect your children closest to the one who desires to hurt them. Hug that enemy!
I think that it’s easy to second guess others and not admit to ourselves that we trust more than we should. Like it seems stupid to date OJ….but what if you believed he didn’t do it? What if you believed his sweet lies about how everyone was out to get him and he gave you puppy dog eyes and made you feel like you were the only person in the world who gave this good man a fair shake? We’ve all been taken in by charm when caution would have been wiser.
I’m surprised no one has mentioned “learned helplessness” in this thread. If that theory has been debunked on feminist grounds or something please someone speak to that, thanks.
Learned helplessness was a key therapeutic concept in helping me separate from an abusive family of origin, and I believe it’s the explanatory gold standard for comprehending the psychology of what’s commonly called masochism. I have seen this theory help many other survivors find peace of mind concerning their prior passivity.
Anyone who can’t understand the psychology of the captive should probably learn about learned helplessness. And if the theory has lost its cachet, please explain.
From the wiki page:
More:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness
I would like, if I may, to direct everyone’s attention (especially Libertarian) to comment number 3 by bbrugger over at the feministe thread (http://feministe.powweb.com/blog/2007/09/18/why-doesnt-she-leave/#comments) on this subject. I will also quote it here in full.
Flawed, while I think learned helplessness is interesting, some feminists criticize it because they think it sounds more helpless than it is. Basically, learned helplessness is a rational reaction to being in an environment where nothing you do can help your situation. If you watch the video again, you’ll see that her attempts to hold very still aren’t quite the irrational learned helplessness we imagine; she is making a rational choice to try and do absolutely nothing, knowing full well to do something is to give him the hook he needs to beat her. He does it anyway, of course, since he wanted to beat her and her behavior has nothing to do with it.
I think the theory is good, it just needs a little juicing with the acknowledgement that the helpless people are behaving rationally in their situation. I mean, it’s already there in the definition you give, but it could be fleshed out more. All in all, I think it’s a useful thing to know.
Hmm, I had a comment all ready for Preying Mantis, but Amanda brought up something…..specifically to OJ. What if he didn’t do it? Interesting. I have had the mind set that he really did do it and didn’t think there were people left that thought he was innocent. So to bring it down to just the common man there is the possibility that you buy into their line of bullshit on how they are just getting a bad shake.
Just a side note… I HATE THE STUID ANTI-SPAM FEATURE!!! Is there not a better way to prevent spam than that type the text you see? Some of those numbers are tiny, I can’t see them very well!!!!!!!
I showed this video to my three daughters so they can see the ugly face of physical and mental abuse.
The guy is following his instincts to destroy his wife’s self esteem. Why you ask? Her husband’s fear is that she will lose respect for him because she is the sole bread winner and have an affair. He, by destroying her self worth, insures she will never be in the requisite frame of mind to begin a flirtation much less engage in an affair. I have seen women who have been in an abusive relationship for a while. They truly become unattractive. Because of the abuse, they think themselves worthless.
Unfortunately the strategy works and the temptation will always be there to use it.
JimB,
I hope you also explained that its just ONE face of abuse. They there are many many different faces.
I think there is a larger learned helplessness involved - one where a woman is conditioned from infancy to be dependent in some way - financially, emotionally, etc. That feeds into the cycle of “need a man” that turns into “can’t possibly leave because …”.
Even for women who are “sensible”, leaving is still difficult when property and children are involved. One woman I worked with had left a drug addict husband who had degenerated into verbal abuse, threatening her, etc. She had already lost much of everything to bankruptcy because of his drug habits, so that made escape difficult. She managed it because she was not socially isolated and had held jobs before here daughter was born.
One day he came around and I recognized him right off the bat. “Hello, can I help you?” I said, loud enough for her to hear through the door/wall of her office. He replied right next to those locked doors that made a wall, and I led him around the long way knowing full damn well that 1) our boss was on the phone to campus security and 2)she heard his voice and was headed out the other end of the office suite as soon as we walked into the open area at the other end.
By the time I took him to the absolutely wrong office on the other wing of the suite, security had arrived with five officers and cuffs.
To get away from this bullshit, you need accomplices. I knew one woman who had a friend in this sort of trouble, and she had organized people the woman did not know to take her in so that she wouldn’t be anywhere her abuser knew of, or anywhere that she knew of (as she could be in any of several places). If the abuser went to the friend’s house and found her there she would have been killed and her friend would probably be murdered with her.
Many women in this situation are far too socially isolated by their batterers to have those sorts of escape plans and extended resources. Abusers DELIBERATELY make escape difficult.
Kate -
Two of the overpasses I must drive under each day have signs from father’s rights groups. (think freeway blogger)
One says “Divorce hurts kids.”
another says “Sole custody is child abuse.”
I can’t tell you how ill those signs make me.
Sister, I understand what you mean. Good point.
Amanda - good point about learned helplessness as a rational response. The full video is very long and there is a long build up to the actual violence. I think that her response (or lack of response) to his verbal abuse is what stretched it out - she knows what sets him off and is able to avoid triggering it for quite a while.
It seems to me that this is one of the most pernicious things about abusive relationships - the victim does actually have a tiny bit of control, just enough to keep them from completely giving up hope. They also understand the dynamics of what escalates and deescalates the violence, and have absolutely no doubt that leaving or otherwise getting help will lead to a massive escalation.
I really wish somebody would do some research on this so we can better understand the blog trolling phenomenon
Trolling can be fun. The epitome of the art is to invoke massive amounts of ranting stupidity in response to the minimal amount of effort. Wingnuts are great targets for this, as you merely need to repeat facts they’re trying to deny - they have real problems coming to grips with an argument.
Of course, I’m an asshole. YMMV.
It occurs to me that “I can change him” is an insidious bit of patriarchal propaganda, directly tied in with the whole notion that men are savage animals that need women to “tame” them: Obviously if the first/previous woman failed to “tame” the abusive man, she must have been at fault/wrong for him, whatever, and the woman who thinks she can “change him” is different (and, more importantly, superior) to the one who “failed.”
Our society has some deep, deep cultural psychoses…
*sigh* I wish I had taken the time to read the rest of the (very serious, very worthwhile) remarks before chipping in with a flippant tangent. Sorry, all - keep on going.
Victims have higher cerebral activity than the norm, with perceptive abilities off the charts. Who else knows what tension looks like? Victims often know a beating is coming before the assailant knows, based on the affective and behavioral cues that few others are attuned to.
If the victim looks irrational from the outside it’s no excuse not to find the logic and problem-solving in her coping strategies. Your whole life becomes figuring shit out. How can I speed up the beating, get it out of the way Tuesday because Wednesday I have to go to the post office where fresh welts will be open to prying and judgmental stares. This vigilance, perception and strategic thinking are heightened in captive populations, and should be seen as the manifestation of genius-in-extremis by the fortunate non-captives among society, who would most likely appear just as perplexing in the same situation.
Things going on in an abused woman’s mind.
“Let’s put the Drano in the back of the cabinet over the sink, so in his rage he can’t just pull it out.”
“If I can just make it to the playpen I can put the baby down and get to the other room before she sees this.”
(what’s worse is having your baby crawl on you as your pushing her away to keep her from getting the blows.)
Or standing in front of the knife drawer so in his final rage against you because you stupidly let him back into the house so he could see the kids, he could not take out a knife and hurt you and the kids - all the while you are trying to shield toddler son from the blows (which at least one lands on him) and keep your 3 year old daughter from getting crushed by the refrigerator door because just before this started she went to get a drink of kool-aid.
Or have your 3 year old daughter be woken up at night because he’s hitting you again (at least this time it’s not because you refused to eat pizza) and hear her say “Daddy, don’t hurt my Mommy.”
and those things echo in your mind . . . even 30 years later. . . it’s all part of the PTSD.
You see, even though I haven’t seen the video, I’m back there now … I just wrote something here that my current husband never knew, he’s questioned me about it — unfortunately even if I tell someone the highlights it’s not enough to know the depth of what went on in that house, or in the car, or at work which causes you to rush right home — you see he’s jsut called you accused you of sabotaging him because he can’t find his verification opf competetion of courses etc. which allows him to take his Airframe and Powerplant test, which will allow him to be a airplane mechanic. After two years of supporting him, he accuses you of sabotage and says if you don’t get home right away he will wreck the whole house.
So you rush home and find the paperwork in the book he left it in, so he would know where to find it.
Oh and support for your classes? He beat me 2 hours before my final, telling me later that i deserved it.
I think I’ll watch L.A. Story before drifting off to sleep — safe in the arms of my husband who was the friend who laid it out for me. I didn’t even watch, but I’m already there.
A few years ago, when I’d just started university, I returned to my old elementary school for a get-together with a couple of my teachers from way back when. The first question one of them asked me was, “so, is your mother still with your father?”
I had to wonder why, though she’d obviously known what kind of person my dad was, this teacher never thought to call child protective services on him when I was in her class.
My dad isn’t evil by any means, but he was never a fit parent and nor was he a good husband to my mother. He was an abusive fuckwit who needed some serious psychiatric help. I’m saddest when I consider how things could have been if he’d gotten the medication and attention he needed.
And where, Libertarian, would you have suggested my mother – what, with her grade nine education and non-existent job skills – go to escape him?
Please answer quickly, because I’m over here holding my breath.
I have noticed that religious themes seem to come up frequently in these cases, not so much about justifying the abuse, but about judging the woman for deciding to leave. The idea that the almighty sees marriage as forever gives the abusers the power of god in keeping the woman trapped.
If we look farther back, often times the woman’s religious upbringing reinforces the notion that women are inferior to men. In many churches, the leadership is entirely male. Women are taught that they are incomplete without a man, and will therefore do anything to get and keep one, even at the expense of their own safety.
A clarification, when I say I prosecuted, it’s my way of talking about litigation. It comes from a seminar I took long ago where the speaker talked about “prosecuting” all cases whether you are a Plaintiff or a Defendant, ie. even a defense should be prosecuted. If you litigate, it’s a good way to think about it (IMHO).
As I said, I’m familiar with both the law and the literature. And I’ve seen DV close up. Ironically, that is why it frequently seems so strange when women stay or go back. After you’ve seen the scars, the bruises, the broken ribs, the hospital records, and after your client has begged you to save her from that “monster” that “criminal” that “bastard” and you do (to the extent a lawyer can, by obtaining a a TRO, a FRO, support, shelter, etc.) and then, a month later, two months later, they’re back together, ya just shake your head. You can read all the theories and literature you want, after you see the damage up close, it’s hard to watch someone go back, it’s like watching someone walk into a room where you (and they) know a hand grenade is about to go off.
wayward: I know in my case when my boyfriend first hit me that I was livid/numb/confused for three days and was prepared to never talk to him again. Why did I go back? The Christian thing to do was to forgive him and my guilt was eating at me that I needed to forgive him. It’s much more complicated than that: I loved him…I couldn’t leave him…I was young and confused…so many other factors, but I do distinctly remember that was one of the reasons I went back.
In retrospect, I honestly don’t blame my Catholic upbringing for anything that transpired between him and me. I was a ballsy, independent, confident young woman with a faith that I was intelligent enough to be skeptical about but also interested in exploring. In fact, in most cases having a belief in something greater than myself kept me going through the next five years with him. I think it’s a matter of knowing when it’s the right time to forgive someone. I wish I had been mature enough at the time to (still) forgive him, but then to turn around and never get involved with him again.
re: the why do women get involved with known abusers, OJ et al.
One of the most effective tools the patriarchy uses against women is to divide them, to keep them from identifying as a group. This goes double for successful women — think Phyllis Schlafly, her own life is completely anathema to everything she thinks women should do and be. Cause somehow she’s special and those other women aren’t, and she is an exception to the rule of boring dumb women, so she’s also exempt from staying at home with the kids and doing whatever her husband tells her.
Similarly, a women who gets involved with a known abuser — the other women were asking for it, they aren’t real women I’m so much better than them. I am nothing like them, so what happened to them couldn’t possibly happen to me.
There is a lack of identification with other women, and instead there is the belief that rejecting other women will keep them safe. This goes for victim blaming and general anti-feminism too.
BlackBloc and other’s problem is that they actually bothered to read the youtube comments. Really it’s a special brand of loser who spends their day adding comments to youtube videos.
If you glean youtube comments, most of the comments are like that: massively juvenile, misogynistic, homophobic, and racist. Frankly it’s a showcase of the worst and dumbest.
BTW, she’s not a “white woman.” She identifies black and is from a black family. Remember, this is the country with the one drop rule so a lot of folks you may think are white, are going home to black families.
Bullshit. Post the docket numbers and some way of linking “libertarian” to the named prosecutor, or crawl back into your hole, liar.
then, a month later, two months later, they’re back together, ya just shake your head.
Try seeing the gun that’s being held to their head, and see if you can’t figure it out, genius.
I don’t understand why it’s still so puzzling to you when about 20 bazillion women have told you why, in the same situation, they felt that they had no choice but to do exactly what you find so incomprehensible.
Gee Doc, I don’t like being called a liar, why don’t we step outside.
Idiot.
Why don’t you post your name and address and I’ll mail you some pleadings.
to answer the question of ‘why men hit’ —
it depends on what kind of abuser it is. people abuse because of subconcious ideas they have about the world, life, relationships, and women.
for example, my exboyfriend abused me (not physically, besides raping me) because he thought he knew what was best for me. he viewed me, his girlfriend, as a child under his charge. i have always been too contrary for things like this. so when i was resistant, he did the only thing he knew how to do to ply me: verbally abuse me until i gave in and changed whatever it was he wanted.
that’s only one aspect, mind you, but i hope it gives an idea…
for more information, i recommend EVERYONE read the book ‘Why Does He DO That?’ by Lundy Bancroft. It was written by someone who attempts to do rehabilitative therapy for abusers. he notes how impossible this is and why.
Libertarian, Sorry for the hammering youre taking. I agree with you, I dont understand staying. In the same way I dont understand how some of the divers on the swim team I was on (once upon the day) could do a twisting double pike. Just completely foreign to my experience. (I was lucky to hit the water two out of three times, but I could swim fast.) Ive read quite a few studies on DV, Ive seen the results personally, but in the end, I just dont understand. Or perhaps it is better to say, I cant relate.
Someone upthread talked about the children, saying that if they had a child that they loved, they would endure anything to protect that child. Perhaps thats part of what I dont understand: I have a child, whom I love dearly and I would do anything to protect that child. Describing what I believe is the same emotion in terms of enduring struck a jarring chord for me. Maybe thats related, maybe its not, and Im certainly not saying that describing it as enduring is wrong, its simply alien to me.
Chet, a few minutes ago, talks about people feeling that they had no choice. But to me, that doesnt explain it, it just uses different words. The concept of having no choice is as foriegn to me as staying in an abusive relationship. He describes it as having a gun to their head. Ive not had a gun to my head. The closest Ive come is having a gun two feet away aimed at my chest. Ill admit that handing over my wallet was one of the easiest choices Ive ever had to make, but it was still a choice. I recognize that many people would not see it that way, and while I know such people exist (and quite possibly vastly outnumber those with my approach) I have difficulty understanding that perspective.
Some seem to have criticized Libertarian for focusing on the woman. For me, I focus on the woman, because while I cant relate to the man either, I feel I have a better handle on what makes him act the way he does than I do the woman. So when trying to understand a situaion, why shouldnt we focus on the part we understand the least? Doing so isnt a judgement of culpability, but of comprehension.
7 to 5 says it must have been the bitchez fault lalalala!
Cross-filed under “here’s always somebody to blame the victim”.
gr fan,
there are at least 170 comments on this thread alone. there are numerous posts on the feminist blogosphere with at least as many comments about why a woman would stay in a relationship like that. have you read at least the ones here about it?
a lot of women in abusive relationships will have nowhere to live if they leave their abusive husbands. yes, it’s a choice, but how much of a choice is that? it’s not like handing over a wallet, let me tell you.
and as someone who was in an abusive relationship who would’ve had somewhere to live if she left her psycho-boyfriend, i can give you more reasons:
do you know how few people can recognize a verbally and emotionally abusive relationship (which is how many abusive relationships are, and how many physically abusive ones start)? so nevermind that you’re sitting there not knowing that you’re being abused, but your friends don’t either, even if you tell them the going-ons of the relationship in some detail. as others have said here, also, abusers can be very nice, charming people. so you think to yourself, yeah, they just threatened to kill me, but i mean, everyone gets a little angry and says things they don’t mean… and he just bought me earrings last week and how many things has he done for me before? and then you’ll tell your friends who are as ignorant of verbally abusive relationships are you are, and they confirm your thought process… NOT because they don’t love you or care about you, but because like most people, they just don’t KNOW.
a friend of mine was raised in an evangelical christian cult-like setting. something he told me once was: ‘the easiest way to get people into a cult is to create an ‘us-against-them’ mentality.’ abusive relationships are like mini-cults, if you will, and the same thing happens there. i don’t know the psychology behind why creating an us-against-them mentality works so well to create a sense of bonding and unification between people (maybe someone more educated on the topic can), but abusers use it quite well. my exboyfriend would always say things about how no-one’s rooting for us, its us against the world, your parents don’t want us together and don’t you want to prove them wrong, etc. this also causes you to not tell people everything that’s going on in the relationship, because of the ‘we’re in this together and no-one else would understand, we have a SPECIAL relationship’ mentality.
if you believe because of what your abuser has made you feel that this is the way relationships are (you especially believe this if you’re young, like i was), or you’re never gonna get a relationship better than this, or whatever, why would you even bother leaving? it’s not that you don’t WANT to, it’s that if shit is going to be like this no matter what you do, what’s the point? try to compare it this way: if you worked at a place like Sears (nothing against sears here, just using any random place) and you hate it there, but you know that with your GED you can only really work at other retail places like Filenes or Payless or whatever that are gonna suck as much, why would you change jobs?
if you’ve never met a sociopath before (which was the particular flavor of abuser i had), then you have no idea how sneaky these people are, how they can get in your head, how hopeless they can make you feel against your own will.
“it kills me that because it happened to be a black man committing the crimes that for many white viewers it reinforced racist assumptions and allowed them to other the whole thing. *sigh*”
The people who need to have those assumptions will find rationalizations for them no matter what any black man does or doesn’t do. This guy is a sociopath. Period.
Yes, these abusive men have so much control and power over you, you cannot leave. I finally left after twenty years of marriage.
My daughter was not so lucky. At fifteen she had a boyfriend who became abusive. She finally left him and six days later he murdered her.
Yes, everyone says leave an abusive man.
She left an abusive man.
She got murdered six days later.
What all the ignorant men out there don’t understand is that most times the woman only has TWO choices - stay and be ABUSED or leave and be MURDERED.
grieving mother of a beautiful 15 year old girl.
In response to some comments above (I haven’t read the whole thread) asking “why do women stay with guys like that?”:
First, guys like that don’t always start out that way. In my sister’s case, there was no problem for several years, and he was a fun, charming, exciting guy who made a good living. He degenerated gradually, both as a husband and as a human being — he was a businessman and his business became unethical and borderline criminal.
Second, guys like that meter out the reward and punishment in alternation, and they always make it seem that the problems are the wife’s fault. But when they’re being nice, they’re really supernice, so the wife thinks that things have gotten better and everything’s OK. “He was in a bad mood”.
Third, once there are kids the woman is a captive, since she seldom can take care of the kids herself without help and often has limited job skills after dedicating herself to being a wife. By defining herself as a wife (i.e., by being traditional and conventional and non-feminist) the woman harms herself. (In my sister’s case, our family worked on ways to rescue her and her two kids, but we didn’t have a lot of financial resources and my sister had no self confidence at that time).
A woman with kids can’t save herself alone, because that way she would leave the kids in the control of a vicious abuser.
In the end my sister escaped and made a life for herself, but she and the kids suffered permanent objective damage — i.e., living in poverty while her ex-husband became a millionaire while doling out favors to the kids in a manipulative way. My sister never was able to collect on the divorce settlement because she was physically afraid of what her ex-husband would do; she fled for her physical safety.
Lorelei,
First off, I want to thank you for your response. In someways, I believe you have helped me to better understand, although I am still having difficulty. To your concerns, yes, I have read all the responses here; No, I have not read the responses in other feminist blogs, I came here from PZ Meeshniz’s Pharyngula. There were other points raised in other posts I had wanted to respond to as well, but felt my post was already long enough.
Most of the other responses, seemed to me to be describing the narrowing of options: The fear for self, the fear for your children, the difficulties presented by a lack of education, experience or marketable skills. As you go into, the lack of recognition of the problem. The difficulties in extracting yourself and the difficulties in keeping yourself safe, once you have been extracted. Perhaps most damaging, the lack of support. I can understand that. I can understand the sense of hoplessness and futility that that would create.
Where I fail to follow is that the narrowing of options is not an elimination of them, and in my mental calculus the situation is so monstrous, that it seems to me that any price, including ones own life, is worth getting out of such a situtation. So all the posts explaining how badly the abused’s options suck, while informative, dont address the the point at which my understanding fails. Perhaps for some reason, Im incapable of understanding it, and thus can only sympathize, but not empathize with the abused. But if so, I would like to atleast try to explore what the roadblocks are.
When I was much younger, I worked in a lab. In addition to the lab techs and the manager, there was a high-school girl who worked part time doing clerical work. At some point during a break, while all of us were sitting around bs-ing, it somehow came up that here boyfriend had hit her. We all expressed shock and dismay and told her to drop him immediately and stay as far away as possible. She defended him, even going so far as to say, “Its OK that he hits me, thats how I know he loves me.” Despite our offers of support and our continued attempts to convey that this was wrong, she hadnt left him by the time her internship had ended. The thing that I couldnt get over was her conviction that this was normal and acceptable.
Perhaps I am unduly extrapolating from a sampling of one, but I cant help but think that the acceptance of the abuse as normal plays a large part in an abusive relationship, and if it does, it would be a large part of my stumbling block to understanding. Your concept of a micro-cult helps some, but it is still very difficult for me to relate. Perhaps part of it is that in your analogy to working at Sears — absolutely, Id try changing jobs. Cant give you a good reason why, but no doubt that I would, if simply to see what else there is. Its an attitude of, “WTF, I may be screwing myself over, but at least im trying.” No idea if that helps explain where the disconnect is or not.
Well this seems long enough for now. One other question: You say “a sociopath before (which was the particular flavor of abuser i had)” What other flavors are there? It seems to me that to be an abuser, one would have to have a sociopathic lack of empathy. That and have a bully’s compensation for poor self-esteem.
Where I fail to follow is that the narrowing of options is not an elimination of them, and in my mental calculus the situation is so monstrous, that it seems to me that any price, including one’s own life, is worth getting out of such a situation. So all the posts explaining how badly the abused’s options suck, while informative, don’t address the the point at which my understanding fails. Perhaps for some reason, I’m incapable of understanding it, and thus can only sympathize, but not empathize with the abused.
Fuck you, you ignorant, worthless piece of shit. You indeed are incapable of understanding this, and no one should pay attention to anything you say. Your faux-philosophical statement of your brutal point of view makes it worse, as far as I’m concerned.
In my sister’s case, fear of death was a major factor. She finally did escape, after having been at fear of her life (a gun to her head at one point), but it was very, very difficult and chancy.
And you fail to understand this. But who cares what you think?
Let’s ask why that small minority of women don’t leave, and why that small minority of men hit.
Our society constructs the roles of women as anything but ’stay and take it’. That is a dead attitude and women today have more options than men do.
Maybe we can do a psych test for women who lack the self-esteem to leave.
The concept of having no choice is as foriegn to me as staying in an abusive relationship. He describes it as having a gun to their head. Ive not had a gun to my head. The closest Ive come is having a gun two feet away aimed at my chest. Ill admit that handing over my wallet was one of the easiest choices Ive ever had to make, but it was still a choice.
You have a funny definition of “choice”, I guess. How many reasonable alternatives did you feel you had when someone with a loaded gun pointed at you was asking you to do something?
A choice between “capitulate” or “die” is the textbook definition of Hobbsian choice; that is, no choice at all, to most reasonable people.
And, none of us have a hard time understanding why you chose how you did. So why do you have a hard time when other people are making the exact same choice you did? Capitulate or die. Those are the options most abusers give you, when the violence reaches a certain point.
Before that point, it’s easier just to think of it as someone you love had a bad day and snapped, or it was something you did, or whatever.
Where I fail to follow is that the narrowing of options is not an elimination of them, and in my mental calculus the situation is so monstrous, that it seems to me that any price, including ones own life, is worth getting out of such a situtation.
See, you talk a big game now, but you just admitted to the fact that when you were in the exact same situation - capitulate or die - you capitulated.
Turn off your horse’s-ass posturing for a second and remember what it’s like to be a threatened human being again.
The thing that I couldnt get over was her conviction that this was normal and acceptable.
She probably grew up getting whaled on by her father or something. We’re addicted to the familiar, and people who have been abused before find abuse familiar.
Let’s ask why that small minority of women don’t leave, and why that small minority of men hit.
Our society constructs the roles of women as anything but ’stay and take it’.
What society are you talking about? The one I live in - America - tells women that they’re being selfish and harming their families when they walk out on a husband and kids. Or that they’re ball-busting harridans when they try to take the kids with them and arrange sole custody.
Or that they’re gold-diggers when they try to claim the alimony they need to survive on their own.
I think perhaps that you focused on all the times people complain that the abused don’t leave their abusers and assumed that was out of genuine concern for the abused.
But the fact that the same people also condemn women who break up families to escape abuse proves you’re wrong. The whole point is to condemn women no matter what they do - just for being women.
You must be new here, I guess.
Let’s ask why that small minority of women don’t leave, and why that small minority of men hit.
I don’t think it’s all that small.
Maybe we can do a psych test for women who lack the self-esteem to leave.
Fun fact - self-esteem doesn’t have anything to do with it.
Our society constructs the roles of women as anything but ’stay and take it’. That is a dead attitude and women today have more options than men do.
Well, if you say so, I guess it must be true.
Just because you feel your life sucks doesn’t mean women don’t have it worse. You might find it prohibitively difficult to move out of your parents’ basement or lose your virginity, but an abused woman fearing for her life still has far fewer options in life than you do.
well! I’d like to move to Buck’s society!!
the Sister @ 129: Its hard to feel empathy or even sympathy for someone who has the mentality of “it can’t/won’t happen to me” and when it does are shocked.
The way to deal with that, I found, is not to spend to much effort into being sympathetic, but instead put the effort into being useful when the shit hits the fan (as it will). Sympathy won’t drive the getaway car or take care of the dog.
One comment. Why attack or be negative (ie ’shut up’) to people who exhibit a normal human curiosity. It is a goddamn natural reaction to wonder why someone might stay in an abusive relationship. I understand that if you were in one you may not wonder about why at all, but don’t tell others that they can’t be curious about how a human behaved in a certain situation. Jesus H. fucking christ on a fucking pogo stick! It is natural to try to understand behavior that doesn’t seem to make sense to you personally. I’m sure the libertarian person did not voice his curiosity to demean you in any way. He just voiced his opinion. Probably never having been abused it does not make sense, why not have a dialogue with libertarian instead of lambasting his comment. Realize your own negativity and aggression.
Tzu, why is it our job to politely coddle Libertarian’s dumbfuck opinions? Or yours, for that matter?
I think it is different for a mother when it comes to sticking around for a child. My brother lost a parent and was left with the abusive when not neglectful narcissistic one. I felt bad for him because he is autistic and I believed that his remaining parent would effectively murder him by suicide. He once put a knife to himself and she didn’t take it away from him. She took it as an opportunity to scream at him. At no time did I see fear for his safety or concern for his mental and emotional wellbeing. Well by sticking around I continued to bear the brunt of the abuse and I have seen that he is inherently feeble and willl side with the abuser and when he is emotionally frustrated and anger will make attempts to actually ignite a tirade against me by her. Although he does need me, it’s only as a daily provider of services without bonding to me so I finally feel satisfied that there is nothing more for me to do for him and that I can leave them both. I don’t feel any regret for the last few years when I felt he was in danger even though I don’t really have a brother or any family worth missing. He is unappreciative and entitled about friends in his life as well. I know that the parent intentionally ruined him as I watched her steer him towards pettiness but she tried the same thing with me first and it didn’t take,
Lib: you don’t like being called a liar? My heart bleeds for you. Consider lying less.
Since I’m not the person claiming to do things that I haven’t in a public forum, I’m afraid I must decline your request to stalk me. If you can’t get it together enough to muster a scanner, a black marker and a free web host in support of your claims, that is very much not my problem.
I’m coming late to the party. Other than spinning forums (spinning wool, not spinning on a bike), I’ve ratcheted down my reading of blogs because I am too sensitive. I get horribly fucked up for days over shit. This post being a prime example. I am so fucking pissed off that this kind of shit goes on. His kids are gonna be fucked up abusing assholes. Ugh!
Anyway, I wanted to comment on the question about why women will date men who have been convicted of crimes, who are known wife abusers/killers, etc.
I think the answer is simple. In a patriarchy, women are going to by default have low self-esteem. I can’t remember the feminist writer who said that a woman can’t begin her path to feminism, until she comes to terms with the fact that she has been brainwashed that there is something wrong with her BECAUSE she is a woman. So, by default women have this self-esteem issue. And since people are individuals with differing experiences, not everyone is going to have the same amount of self-esteem. Some women end up with more due to the way they are raised, their circumstances, their natural inclination to question things, etc.
Now add in that in a patriarchy any single man is deemed by default to be superior to any single woman. No matter how creepy, disgusting, criminal, diseased, stupid, etc. a guy is, there is a woman with low enough self-esteem that she thinks he’s a catch.
I remember when I discovered this. I was working in a medical lab that had the billing department in the same building. There was a female manager who was married to a doctor. She was very pretty. The doctor, on the other hand, was 5′2″, very overweight, wore big gawdy jewelry and kept his shirt unbuttoned way too far down. He looked like a troll. He was known for making his employees sit on his lap and give him a kiss for their Christmas bonuses. Her own daughter even asked her, “Mom, are you attracted to Dad?” She noticed the discrepancy. I remember asking people, “Why is she with him?” And they said, like it was common sense. “Well, he’s a rich doctor.” But I followed up with, “There are rich, ATTRACTIVE doctors with less obnoxious personalities.” Apparently, her self-esteem was so low that she felt that this troll was the best she could do.
I think we tend to forget that low self-esteem of women is intrinsic to a patriarchy.
KevInMcA 10 7: THAT’S A BEATIN
Steven6777: Finally
Steven6777: She looks like Sarah Jessica Parker
KevInMcA 10 7: lol
Steven6777: Bullshit
Steven6777: If she had it her way that guy would have been ruined
Steven6777: So
Steven6777: They should have let the kids talk
KevInMcA 10 7: ya
Steven6777: OMG
Steven6777: He said if she didn’t bring his son home he’d kill her!
Steven6777: OMG
Steven6777: SEND HIM 36 YEARS
Steven6777: Fat old man crybaby says he can’t get over it
KevInMcA 10 7: lol
Steven6777: Big strong black man scares him
Steven6777: 36 YEARS FOR HIM
Steven6777: He said she didn’t give a shit about her kids
Steven6777: Wtf
Steven6777: Let’s go back to the start
Steven6777: Why did he begin hitting her then
KevInMcA 10 7: Yeah she deserved to be beaten to the floor
Steven6777: Yeah!
Steven6777: If she had it her way the kids would have been taken from the guy
KevInMcA 10 7: The first time was because she didn’t bring him what he wanted from the grocery store
Steven6777: She was probably being a bitch
Steven6777: You know how girls don’t tell whole truth stories
Steven6777: It’s just “oh pity me” and all this bad stuff happened to me
Steven6777: I bet she was being a shit right from the get go
Steven6777: She goes to the News Reporters and tells all this shit
Steven6777: I bet if the guy had an interview it’d be 100% truth
Steven6777: But they don’t show that
KevInMcA 10 7: That is a good point
Steven6777: Kids are smart, they know their dad is right
KevInMcA 10 7: The guy should have gotten to speak
Steven6777: Their dad looked and cared for them
KevInMcA 10 7: Of course it’s not okay to beat people ever
Steven6777: I know
Steven6777: Maybe he was fed up with her
Steven6777: She could have left him but didn’t
Steven6777: And he’s being trapped as her being a shitty wife
Steven6777: He tried to convince his kids that his wife was being shit too
Steven6777: All they had on that interview was a bunch of angry feminazi’s and a aging old crybaby fatass who has nightmares about niggers beaten him because he’s a crybaby
Steven6777: OHMYGOD
Steven6777: If you wanted control of a household but you had a wife like her who doesn’t spend time with her kids and runs off with crappy friends what would you do
KevInMcA 10 7: omfg
KevInMcA 10 7: Well it’s never good to beat your spouse
Steven6777: Even if he divorced her he’d lose his kids and he probably wouldn’t want that
Steven6777: I know
KevInMcA 10 7: You need practical solutions
KevInMcA 10 7: Divorce
Steven6777: Yeah but life ain’t about divorcing
Steven6777: Alot of wives are pretty shitty nowadays
KevInMcA 10 7: Yeah
Steven6777: She says she was desperate trying to save whatever she could salvage
Steven6777: See
Steven6777: She had the idea that she “has kids” but never wanted to “be with her kids”
Steven6777: Just the thought of having them
Steven6777: She don’t know jack shit about what she’s talking about
KevInMcA 10 7: Yeah
Steven6777: I know why that guy beat the shit out of her
Steven6777: What a cunt
Steven6777: She’s saying that she’s desperately trying to do whatever her husband says but she wasn’t even doing that lol
Steven6777: This video is turdmunchers
Steven6777: Fuck
Steven6777: This video is bullshit
Steven6777: What if she decided to stop being a fucktard all innocent-like
Steven6777: The reason he beat her is because she doesn’t stand up for anything
Steven6777: Inside, she couldn’t give a shit…
Steven6777: That’s why she never cried real tears because she knew the truth
Steven6777: It’s all that simple really…
Steven6777: She don’t even look at the fucking camera in any of her pictures
KevInMcA 10 7: I wish I could understand things from your perspective
Steven6777: She says he got obsessive over his control
Steven6777: Like he just got more controlling and beat her
Steven6777: No bitch.
Steven6777: He kept getting sick and tired of your stupidity.
Steven6777: And it got worse.
Steven6777: He never wanted other men in the house because he didn’t trust his wife and alot of other men are fucks.
KevInMcA 10 7: Yeah
Steven6777: See when you have children, a wife, and a home, you have to take control and know all this shit. His wife was just a stupid shit.
KevInMcA 10 7: How old are you again?
Steven6777: 19
KevInMcA 10 7: Doesn’t have anything to do with the topic, just forgot
Steven6777: Haha
Steven6777: Notice how in the video it just shows him saying and talking offensively to her but it don’t show what she says beforehand
Steven6777: Because all she talks is bullshit
KevInMcA 10 7: Yeah
Steven6777: OMFG
Steven6777: SO FUNNY
Steven6777: The abused says “He said don’t look at him like you’re interested in what he’s doing” and she said “I think I am interested in what he’s doing”
Steven6777: THAT’S A FUCKING LIE
Steven6777: LIE
Steven6777: The man said that to prove a point
KevInMcA 10 7: yeah
Steven6777: DUDE
Steven6777: THIS VIDEO IS BULLSHIT
KevInMcA 10 7: I knoww
Why don’t women leave?
Perhaps the best article I have read on this is as follows: http://www.justicewomen.com/cj_whydoesntsheleave.html
“Women often don’t leave domestic violence because they know that when they do leave the danger of more severe violence increases dramatically. Violence, and the sheer terror of it, is one of the principle reasons women don’t leave. And the women are right!
Fact: When domestic violence victims attempt to leave the relationship, the stalking and violence almost always escalates sharply as the perpetrator attempts to regain control.
Fact: The majority of domestic violence homicides occur as a woman attempts to leave or after she has left.
Fact: The most serious domestic violence injuries are perpetrated against women who have separated from the perpetrator.
The women know these dangers. They know them because they’ve already experienced the violent responses when they’ve attempted to assert themselves, even minimally, within the relationship. They know because the perpetrators have usually threatened precisely what they intend to if she does try to leave.”
*****
This woman did what she had to, to survive. She is amazing. As are all the other battered women out there doing what they need to, to survive.
Why don’t women leave?
Perhaps the best article I have read on this is as follows: http://www.justicewomen.com/cj_whydoesntsheleave.html
“Women often don’t leave domestic violence because they know that when they do leave the danger of more severe violence increases dramatically. Violence, and the sheer terror of it, is one of the principle reasons women don’t leave. And the women are right!
Fact: When domestic violence victims attempt to leave the relationship, the stalking and violence almost always escalates sharply as the perpetrator attempts to regain control.
Fact: The majority of domestic violence homicides occur as a woman attempts to leave or after she has left.
Fact: The most serious domestic violence injuries are perpetrated against women who have separated from the perpetrator.
The women know these dangers. They know them because they’ve already experienced the violent responses when they’ve attempted to assert themselves, even minimally, within the relationship. They know because the perpetrators have usually threatened precisely what they intend to if she does try to leave.”
*****
This woman did what she had to, to survive. She is amazing. As are all the other battered women out there doing what they need to, to survive.