I was fully prepared to be annoyed at this article by Justin D. Ross about the naughty, naughty rap music and the misogyny therein, because I’m sick to the teeth with a discourse that implies that rap is somehow special in its peddling of hateful attitudes towards women, when hateful attitudes towards women are part and parcel of 75% of pretty much every kind of entertainment, particularly that which is hoping to cash in the anxious masculinity of the frat boys and wannabe thugs of the world. I was pleasantly surprised, however, to read someone who finally, finally got past the unsubtle racism of most critiques of hip-hop that tries to hold black men especially accountable for sexism in the world and addressed the real reason that so much modern rap music is unlistenable crap, and it has everything to do with who has the money—middle and upper class white people—and what they want to spend it on—apparently, entertainment products that both peddle in ugly stereotypes about black people while simultaneously providing an escapist fantasy. Why is rap music so dreadful these days? Well, white consumers are to blame.
Across the country, white kids in comfortable suburban neighborhoods (mine was Greenbelt) sit in their cars or bedrooms or studio apartments, listening to the latest rap music that glorifies violence, peddles racist stereotypes and portrays women as little more than animals. We look through the keyhole into a violent, sexy world of “money, ho’s and clothes.” We’re excited to be transported to a place where people brag about gunplay, use racial epithets continually and talk freely about dealing drugs. And then we turn off whatever we’re listening to and return to our comfy world in time for dinner.
White fans buy over 70% of rap music in this country. The frat boys throwing racist Halloween parties are the same people who made a hack like 50 Cent a multi-millionaire. Not that there aren’t non-white consumers of the most ridiculous rap music out there, but the market is increasingly driven by pandering to the young white male consumer from the suburbs, and more often than not, he wants to hear about bitches, guns, drugs, and how black people are born criminals. Look at the history of hip-hop—when it wasn’t quite “mainstream” (read: majority white audience), there was really no such thing as “gangsta rap”. Then there was a time when gangsta rap was a subgenre of hip-hop. Then sometime in the mid-to-late-90s, “gangsta rap became so overwhelmingly popular that a lot of people (particularly those who don’t know much about the music at all) began to assume that gangsta rap was rap. You know, even though the Fugees were platinum-selling.
So now we’re in a position where there’s lots of hand-wringing over the misogyny in rap—as if there’s not misogyny in other kinds of music*—that functions to shift the blame for misogyny onto black people more than it does to help anyone with anything. The surge of misogynist sentiment of the mid-to-late-90s wasn’t restricted to hip-hop; rock music had the same problem, culminating in the rape-heavy nightmare that was Woodstock ‘99. And there’s not a whole lot of talk about the way that the much more immediate problem is racist motivations of a lot of consumers who drive the market. So I’m glad that Ross is bringing the discussion back to the real issues, but I’m not sure I can sign onto this idea of a boycott.
The problem with the boycott mentality is that it’s puritanical and it turns people off. We’re so up to our ears on thou-shalt-nots that we get confused and end up giving up altogether. And just telling people to avoid rap music because of the racism and misogyny means that you’ll get some people bowing out who were in it for the music in the first place, just increasing the percentage of the record-buying audience that’s buying for the ridiculous stereotypes. I think the word “boycott” needs to be avoided and a frame of conscientious consumerism forwarded. Don’t boycott albums so much as spend your rap music dollar on something that doesn’t cater to racist fantasies.
To be fair, Ross does agree that it’s more about buying the better music than abandoning the music.
Some hip-hop artists (the Roots, Talib Kweli, D.C.’s own Wale) still succeed without using stereotypes and misogyny, but too much of today’s rap goes another way: It’s full of drug dealing and killing, and it portrays women as sex objects.
But he doesn’t put enough emphasis on this. What’s going to happen if mindful consumers simply refrain from buying rap is that the industry will just keep catering to where the money is at, which is going to increasingly be the racist element. But if they see that people are seeking out and buying rap with more positive lyrics, where people are treated like people not some sort of stereotypes, then that’s a new market to cater to. Plus, the artists out there trying to do interesting, thoughtful stuff deserve your money and your ears.
Now with the MP3 culture, there’s an opportunity to really help change the market. First of all, you can mix and match songs instead of buying whole albums, so you can spread your money out to more artists. Five songs a piece from two positive artists instead of one album from just one helps send the message a little louder. Plus, there’s podcasting. Kevin linked to this podcast a long time ago, and it looks like a good place to start. Kevin has also started blogging artists he likes, so there’s some good recommendations in his hip-hop tag. The reward of digging for more positive hip-hop is that it’s so much better a lot of the time. It’s nice to listen to artists who are more concerned with being good than moving records. It’s like any other kind of music; you have to dig to get to the good stuff, but the rewards are immense. Start by subscribing to some podcasts. I’m going to do it right now.
*Country music’s maudlin history of misogyny has gotten only more teeth-grindingly awful over time. Vintage country that was nasty to women at least had a assholish vibe to it that made it more interesting to listen to. Lately, though, every time I hear some sort of sexist country song, it has this Nice Guy® whiny tone to it that makes me want to gouge my eardrums out. To be fair, rock has the same problem—a lot of gleeful assholery of the 60s-90s has given way to Sensitive Boy syndrome, which is both more annoying and more insidious, because a lot of people mix up “in touch with my feelings” with “sympathetic to women’s POV”, which is most definitely not the case.
80 Responses to “The real problem with popular hip-hop”
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to gouge my eardrums out. To be fair, rock has the same problem—a lot of gleeful assholery of the 60s-90s has given way to Sensitive Boy syndrome, which is both more annoying and more insidious, because a lot of people mix up “in touch with my feelings” with “sympathetic to women’s POV”, which is most definitely not the case.
Emo “sensitive” rock makes me want to gouge my eardrums out even more than most rap.
Interesting post. I was just back from my good friend’s house and her boyfriend was listening to some pretty vile hip-hop. Especially ones about killing “fags” and about how women are put on earth to serve. Ugh it was disgusting.
And yes my friends boyfriend is male, and he is white, and he lives in a suburb. While talking about how he could listen to such awful music, he responded that he found it funny. How it’s funny is beyond my grasp. I guess you have to be a frat boy to understand the humour…
My theory is that the “money, ho’s and clothes.” mentioned in the article is the urban version of Reagan’s “Morning in America”
You know. “Urban” in my last post REALLY should be in quotation marks. I deeply apologize for that.
BTW. You’re all right about Emo music and modern country. It’s “Good Guy-ism” run amock.
Growing up in suburban NJ, the kids who listened to hip-hop in my high school were also the kids that harrassed me the most, threatening to beat the living shit out of me after school for being a “little faggot”. These kids were white and saw the music they loved and listened too as proof of how stupid and pathetic black people were. I always wondered how many rap artists were aware that a certian amount of their suburban white “fan” base was probably more rascist then they ever imagined and how some of these “fans” used thier music to “justify” thier rascism.
As for me, thank god for Morrissey, Suede, David Bowie…I would not have survived high school without them.
I agree that boycotts are self-defeating. Vote with your wallet, intelligently.
The problem I see is that people _like_ sexist music. And hey, as a free-speech absolutist, if people want to say horrible things for cash, that’s fine with me. I just don’t see much room for “fixing” it without changing the underlying attitudes.
And, I have to say, there’s sexist music I like. David Bowie, Lou Reed, even some Queen. Part of this is cultural, part of it is historic - getting pissed at The Canterbury Tales has been popular, but nobody I know of has seriously made the argument that Chaucer should have written them with 21st century understandings of gender in mind.
In other news, I’m on a serious Laurie Anderson kick, and am annoyed that the subway is so loud that I can’t listen to her reasonably on my shiny new iPod. What a bleak, horrible urban middle-class future I live in.
Fishbane,
As sexist as Bowie and Reed can be, at least most of the folks who listen to them are more arty and less likely to be sexist, homophobic, and rascist as opposed to the kind of date raper frat boy into Van Halen or something. At least thats been true in my personal experience…
I just bought the reissue of Laurie Anderson’s “Big Science”. Its fantastic!
My theory is that the “money, ho’s and clothes.” mentioned in the article is the urban version of Reagan’s “Morning in America”
IIRC, that was part of Cornel West’s argument in _Race Matters_: that the insistent name-dropping of name-brands in hip-hop and hip-hop culture was harmonious with, not adversarial to, mainstream American consumerist capitalism.
Re: Country music
Try Canadian! I don’t know if our folk counts as country, but there is Blue Rodeo, and Spirit of the West. …and then there is Paul Gross.
I like a lot of sexist music, too. Trying to attack sexism in music is a lost cause. But we do have a very specific issue here where hip-hop itself is getting degraded by people who enjoy stuff that’s not only sexist but racist and utter crap. Good artists deserve your support and the industry does not deserve to be rewarded for pushing utter crap.
Incidentally, Amanda, isn’t there a can of worms waiting to be opened in trying to distinguish and thus support “positive artists,” given that by your own statements “an assholish vibe” can be “interesting to listen to”? When does the assholishness get to be too much that it cancels out the pure sonic pleasure? When does the sound get so lame that it cancels out the positivity?
(I don’t think I’ll ever be able to sort out which male artists, to you, are actually sensitive; which are artificially, self-congratulatingly so; and which are so sublime that it doesn’t much matter. But I’ll just chalk that up to personal taste.)
Gee, FlipYrWhig, are you expecting Amanda to give you a polite answer? Because if so, you might want to work on toning down the imperious asshole attitude when you ask your questions.
Not that I can speak for Amanda or anything, but generally speaking most people shy away from entering into discussions with people who can barely conceal a sneer as they try to start the conversation.
Another place to find more positive hip-hop is at my buddy Julien’s podcast In Over Your Head Radio.
I didn’t mean to come across as sneering or imperious, so I’m sorry that it appeared that way, to Amanda and to all. I’m also a (very) longtime reader and fan, although no longer much of a regular, so my tone was supposed to be a kind of friendly sparring based on a past history. I’m genuinely interested in knowing the answer; I do research into the history of sensitivity and generally see it as a positive and at least slightly pro-feminist development, and Amanda’s material on the subject always gives me something to grapple with.
I agree, let’s all boycott boycotts!
But seriously. I never personally thought of rap as any more sexist than any other genre.
I was starting to say it depends on what you know, but I don’t think it’s even dependent on being familiar with it; I hear it, often like what I hear, but I don’t seek it out, and I only have a couple of rap CDs.
I think it’s more that you have to be exposed to the worst of it, and never hear anything else. Oh yeah, and if you hate and fear Black people that probably helps.
Music is complicated. The music itself bypasses rational processing. The emotional content of the lyrics can make a connection even if you don’t want it to.
For example, rage in music can be exhilarating and gives the music a certain energy. If it’s rage against a woman for the usual sexist reasons, that’s gross, but the music still might be good, still might be energizing. (Especially old as I am I don’t always hear all the lyrics right anyway.)
There’s also plenty of sexist songs that make my stomach turn. But I think that’s because the music itself doesn’t speak to me, so I only see the ugly part.
J. S. Bach wrote for the greater glory of God. I’m an atheist, but I still like Bach an awful lot.
Remember that ridiculous exercise in futility by the National Review, proving that Conservatism = Rock and Roll? I don’t want the Left to ever go to those ridiculous lengths to pretend that songs they like are either “Liberal” in nature, or must be ejected from the canon.
Interesting post. I do have one question though, where does the percentage of white people buying rap music come from? I hear that fact said a lot but I’ve always wondered where that number is coming from and the source of it.
Interesting post. I do have one question though, where does the percentage of white people buying rap music come from? I hear that fact said a lot but I’ve always wondered where that number is coming from and the source of it.
But we do have a very specific issue here where hip-hop itself is getting degraded by people who enjoy stuff that’s not only sexist but racist and utter crap. Good artists deserve your support and the industry does not deserve to be rewarded for pushing utter crap.
I don’t disagree at all. The problem remains that if set A of people enjoy {racist, sexist crap music | guns | LSD | clowns | opera}, set B of people will supply it. Blaming the industry is true, but not useful. Even if crappy music were outright banned, it would still be produced and consumed. Other than slow social evolution, I don’t see a fix. As I said, voting with your wallet is one, small thing to do. Another is to make/support better music, on the theory that more good stuff should be able to drive out bad.
On a related note, since I first posted on this thread, I was thinking about sexist music I like - never really approached it categorically in that way. I was having trouble coming up with rap/hip-hop with sexist elements that I liked - I vaguely remember some LL Cool J, the Fat Boys, and other early rap being amusing, and then came up with… the Beastie Boys. I readily admit I’m a privileged urban whiteboy (and even, completely by coincidence, now live less than a mile from where the BBs started out). But isn’t it sort of perverse that given a category of music heavily identified by race, the only one I can quickly think of is a bunch of urban Jewish guys that started out as a punk group?
For those interested in what’s going on north of the boarder musically:
http://www.cbc.ca/podcasting/index.html
Lots of good weekly podcasts. “CBC Radio 3″ features a fair amount of independant canadian hip-hop as does the “R3-30″.
Dude. You need isolating earphones. Shure makes good ones. They come with a variety of tips — I like the disposable foam ones.
These things changed my life. I could not function in NY without them. Also, keep in mind that even when you are not listening to music, the subway is damaging your hearing. Using non-isolating earphones and cranking up your iPod loud enough to drown out the already-defeaning subway noise will destroy your hearing in short order, esepcially if you do it every day. This kind of thing is much, much worse for your ears than going to loud rock shows or clubs.
Interesting post. I do have one question though, where does the percentage of white people buying rap music come from? I hear that fact said a lot but I’ve always wondered where that number is coming from and the source of it.
Interesting post. I do have one question though, where does the percentage of white people buying rap music come from? I hear that fact said a lot but I’ve always wondered where that number is coming from and the source of it.
Interesting post. I do have one question though, where does the percentage of white people buying rap music come from? I hear that fact said a lot but I’ve always wondered where that number is coming from and the source of it.
Interesting post. I do have one question though, where does the percentage of white people buying rap music come from? I hear that fact said a lot but I’ve always wondered where that number is coming from and the source of it.
FlipYrWhig, FWIW, I didn’t think you sounded ‘imperious’ at all.
I don’t listen to hiphop/rap/whatever because I prefer hearing singing.
What bothers me about this is what gets passed off as ‘rap music.’ In particular, that whole genre based in Crunk. The stripclub theme is generally devoid of any originality or inspiration, the complete opposite of what made hip-hop an exciting artform to start with. As Flip said above, Dr. West points out that the sorry ass state of chart busting lyrics is directly related to the money made marketing these stupid stereotypes. And it’s the marketing that the major labels bring to this, as in any musical style, that can’t be ignored.
I guess what bothers me the most is that it isn’t bad enough that people are charting with sexist themes, but that they suck musically and lyrically while doing it, too.
My antidote: smoothbeats.com for the hip-hop.
The problem of course with buying MP3s is that artists and label almost always receive a smaller cuts than they would from an album. The music business is really struggling right now, mostly, in my opinion, due to a bunch of really shitty mainstream music being released. But of course, when the money is short,it’s not the crappy mainstream artists that go– crappy though they may be, they’re still the biggest money makers. The lesser known, and more likely to be socially conscious musicians are the ones who find themselves without a record deal.
So if you can, buy the album. If the goal is to vote with your wallet, that’s a much more effective way of doing it.
We get a pretty steady smattering of obnoxious frat boy types among the newbies who specialise in throwing “gotcha” questions at Amanda (or MARCOTTE, or Ms. Marcotte, as they so often seem to like calling her). I may have jumped to conclusions. I still think the questions were phrased tactlessly, but that happens.
And now back to your regularly scheduled Amanda. Even when she’s not in the comment thread, she’s here in spirit.
Well, thx Eric, but reading back over it, the “I don’t think I’ll ever” part sounds like a snippy passive-aggressive attack. Bad choice on my part.
I’m 54, and I long ago stopped giving a shit about what’s “cool” and “not cool”.
I like what I like.
My iPod is loaded with Tony Bennet, B.B. King, Iggy Pop, The Clash, Johnny Cash, The Beatles, Abba…etc, etc.
What? Abbas’s not cool? Like I could give a shit.
I can’t stand rap. It all sounds the same to me.
What? A middle aged white guy who doesn’t “get” rap? Who knew?
I’m not saying it’s bad. A lot of younger people who’s opinion I respect, tell me that some of it is really. really good. I believe them. I just don’t get it.
Are some of the lyrics misogynist? I’m sure they are.
Some things don’t ever seem to change.
Hey Flip,
We get a pretty steady smattering of obnoxious frat boy asshole types among the newbies who specialise in throwing “gotcha” questions at Amanda (or MARCOTTE, or Ms. Marcotte, as they so often seem to like calling her). I may have jumped to conclusions. I still think the question was phrased tactlessly, but that happens to the best of us.
And now back to your regularly scheduled Amanda. Even when she’s not in the comment thread, she’s here in spirit.
If I never hear another self-righteous asshole demand to know how I can be a feminist and like hip-hop, I will be a happy woman. Every genre of music is deeply entrenched in misogyny and objectifying women, but in hip-hop there’s room to stick it to the man, for both men and women.
The problem with boycotts is that the group which is boycotting a product must have been consuming that product prior to the boycott for it to have any effect. Based on the response here, it seems very unlikely that few of us ever consumed popular rap music to begin with.
I am curious about what people think about the idea that popular rap creates a kind of cultural feedback loop. Where white middle class boys aggrandize performers of ‘gansta’ rap which helps to engender a ‘gansta’ ethos within the urban african-american community.
Well, rap sales have been plummeting recently so someone is buying a lot. Music sales in general have have gone way down, but rap even more so.
I mean “someone is not buying a lot as they used to”/
One of my favorite Chicago rappers is Iomos Marad. He’s conscious, political, and his music is infinitely head-bobbable. Highly recommended.
Re: Old country music assholish vibe. God, I miss George Jones, he was so great.
Yeah, those CMT Nice Guys® are no match for that.
Ok. I’ll bite. I’m new here so what exactly is a “Nice Guy®”? Is that code here for an emo guy who thinks all his failures in the world are due to women?
Pop gangsta rap simply picked up where Hair Metal fell off. Same lyrical themes, same video themes. Music critics do some hoodoo-voodoo so hair metal bands can pretend that it was Nirvana that destroyed them, but when you look closely at the charts, hair metal did just fine until The Chronic dropped. And then it was all over. Rock and Roll all night and party every day? Dre and Snoop Dogg got’s that for ya ass.
50 Cent is David Lee Roth.
Wow, as long as we’re looking for new places to send that bad rap money, I have to profess my newfound musical love for Tim Fite. He’s an alternative/country rapper who focuses on commercialism in rap (although he also has some pretty harsh things to say about general consumerism, the war, the death penalty, and the healthcare system too.) He also has his first two albums available free for download, because, you know, he’s just cool like that.
http://www.timfite.com/songs.html
I will, however, admit that I didn’t understand some of the metaphors in his music till I read this thread. *blush*
re: not always hearing the words first and responding to the music
A few years ago when a couple of emimen (I’m sure I just misspelled that) songs were getting a lot of air play I really enjoyed the music. Until the day i was at a stoplight and really heard the lyrics for the fist time.
After that I either changed stations or turned off the radio when I caught the first notes of the song.
Unlike, say, Fergie’s lastest humps and lumps song. Half way thru the first hearing I knew I hated it.
Atomic — IMO, it has to do with a sense among some men that being “nice” ought to translate into being sexually desirable, so when it doesn’t, it breeds a particular kind of entitled, needy, whiny misogyny. The Nice Guy is only being outwardly decent to women because he thinks there’s something in it for him, and meanwhile he desperately wants credit for being One Of The Good Ones. There’s more to it, too, but that’s what I’ve retained.
50 Cent is David Lee Roth.
Yeah, taking inflation into consideration, that’s about what they’re worth.
Uriah Heep, now that’s a band that stands the test of time.
Try to say that with a straight face. I triple dog dare you.
Speaking of country-rap, the other day a friend played me the bluegrass version of Snoop’s Gin n Juice by Austin’s own The Gourds. I can’t find a link to the song, but that shit was brilliant.
I love some hip-hop. It was the primary music I listened to as a white lady teenager in the 90’s. I didn’t grow up in the burbs, but the city. Everyone listened to it.
Some gangsta/harder rap, despite the misogynist leanings was really good. (I don’t know about these days) Mobb Deep’s The Infamous comes to mind. I still have that one. I got rid of much of it in my possession though. At some point, listening to guys talk shit about women over a beat gets pretty boring.
William, you are spot on with you point that 80’s Hair Metal=00’s commercial hip-hop. It is the same consumer group buying the lot of it.
It’s not the genre, but the content. Which I guess was your point Amanda?
I don’t listen to “Cherry Pie” by Warrant and I don’t listen to “Candy Shop” by 50-cent….but I love some Black Sabbath and Mos Def.
Atomic — IMO, it has to do with a sense among some men that being “nice” ought to translate into being sexually desirable, so when it doesn’t, it breeds a particular kind of entitled, needy, whiny misogyny. The Nice Guy is only being outwardly decent to women because he thinks there’s something in it for him, and meanwhile he desperately wants credit for being One Of The Good Ones. There’s more to it, too, but that’s what I’ve retained.
So a man who is incapable of being friends with an attractive woman without feeling like he is being deprived? Or, a nice way of saying asshat loser. I think I understand. For God’s sake I’m a heterosexual male and I can’t for the life of me understand that attitude. Which I guess is why emo music makes me want to gouge my ears out with a fork.
Dude. You need isolating earphones. Shure makes good ones.
I’ve been considering those. I guess my problem is spending that much - a little silly, considering what I spend other money on (way too much on camera equipment, considering that I don’t use it professionally, for instance).
But yes, the MTA is noisy as hell. I spent ten years in SF riding BART, and lost a specific range of hearing (that high, whiney sound you get going under the Bay - I can still “hear” it, even if I can’t actually hear it anymore), and do worry about worsening my commuter’s-ear. I only just recently started taking the trains mostly daily, so some changes are probably in order, even if that involves spending an embarrassingly large amount on accessories for my expensive, frivolous electronic toys.
Sigh.
I thought of another rap band to consider: the Gravediggaz. As best I can tell, they were a marketing-driven creation hoping to bridge goth/schlock bands and hip-hop - sort of a boy-band creation in search of a market, which I’m pretty sure didn’t work out all that well. Back when I still bought CDs, I bought the disk on a lark, and found it hilarious, in much the same way that I find Alice Cooper funny. (Cooper has more staying power for me, I must admit.) But then contrast with the Insane Clown Posse, who is much more obviously a goofy, self-parodying band, but somehow less self-aware. I can’t listen to them. I suppose another contrast is Gwar, whom I can’t listen to at all recorded, but is awesome in concert. Who doesn’t like screaming dinosaurs eating a procession of midgets in penguin outfits on stage? No, not PC at all, but great schlock theater. And then there was the show where a giant phallus attached to the singer started spewing multicolored goo all over a crucified Pope puppet and the audience. (Tip: if you haven’t seen Gwar and choose to, either don’t wear nice clothes or make sure you’re not in the first twenty or so feet in front of the stage. They’re intentionally rather messy most of the time.)
I started rambling there. I guess the point is performance art often conveys horrible messages, if taken at face value, and second-order analysis would say that that people enjoy it demonstrates that it is shocking and poking at open societal wounds, and shouldn’t be supported. But much like any other sort of performance art, I can’t get up in arms about it, and in fact, find some of it amusing. To some extent, I think encouraging that sort of thing is good, in that it can generate dialogue and also encourages public performance, sillyness, and good fun. The latter three of which I could use more of at the moment.
Fishbane, Gravediggaz was a initially a side project of several already well known artists, like RZA and Prince Paul. I don’t think they were a “boy band creation” as such. I think it was meant to be cartoony, kind of a concept album style. Not all hip-hop is deadly serious. Look at another Prince Paul production: Handsome boy Modeling School.
OK, OK I’ll stop nerding out now.
dang, looks like my epic first post about being a white lady who listens to hip hop got lost iin teh internetz.
Re: Old country music assholish vibe. God, I miss George Jones, he was so great.
He ain’t gone nowhere, what are you talking about. The old rascal is currently working on a new album, and he’s still pretty damn good. And speaking of “asshole”, I knew a dude that toured with the Possum during one of his sober periods. Said he never met a more wound-tight individual, just this far from snapping.
As for country music’s assholish vibe, I don’t know if it was so much a case of straight misogyny as it was just a general sort of misanthropy. Country music, up to a certain point, detailed a pretty goddamn bleak existence. Whatever joy one got was rare and precious, and generally caused as just as much pain as it did happiness. Seeing the want-to in her eyes made one lay oneself down to cheat, and there’s a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning.
It’s all about regret, I’ve come to decide. It’s not so much the immediate cut bu the pain that sits in and puts its feet up on the table. Life’s tough, love don’t work out like it’s supposed to, and goddammit, I gotta go to work Monday morning. It was the music for and by, generally, folks from poor, blue-collar and usually rural backgrounds. Country music’s misogyny mirrored what it’s female fans had to deal with on a daily basis. What’d Tammy say, “sometimes it’s hard to be a woman”, and hell…she was married the George Jones so she knew.
Thing is, the stuff that sticks out is the stuff wherein the female singer showed she wasn’t just a doormat. Oh, it was within an approved boundary, of course, and the country establishment did it’s best to push “safe female singers” like Barbara Fairchild and Barbi Benton who didn’t make men feel uncomfortable. But we remember Loretta Lynn and Tanya Tucker, don’t we?
Problem with modern country music inre: feminism is the same overall problem with modern country music. It’s music not for poor, mean country folk anymore, but for middle-class suburban white people who’re trying to put a little glimmer on their cul-de-saq lives. It’s safe and unthreatening and everyone’s happy and nobody gets shot for messin’ with someone else’s old lady.
Fishbane, Gravediggaz was a initially a side project of several already well known artists, like RZA and Prince Paul.
My mistake, sorry. As usual, I should have consulted Wikipedia before going on my gut assumption. Still, the contrast stands: is Gwar offensive, in the “this is truly offensive, and not just silly” category? Are the Gravediggaz? What about ICP? Or, for that matter, good old whitebread Danzig? And how do others draw a line between silly and really bad? I’m losing my desire for most of the noisy stuff these days, but that isn’t the issue. I guess I wonder about people’s opinions of satirical works, or even simply profane works that are offensive, but intended as humor. I guess the contrast I’m looking at is any of those bands I’ve named and some band like Screwdriver or Prussian Blue, or alternately 50 Cent, or Luke Skywalker (from way back then).
Sometimes one runs across C&W that makes one wonder: all right–is this actually nothing more than the American version of the Scots and haggis?
Some of it seems to be very gently–or not so gently–pulling our legs:
“Jesus Drop Kick Me Through The Goal Posts of Life”
“You’re the Reason God Made Oklahoma.”
“Blood and Whisky on the Highway”
So a man who is incapable of being friends with an attractive woman without feeling like he is being deprived?
I don’t think it has to be in the context of friendship (or even related to attractiveness). But somewhere someone is having sex, and it ain’t him, and it’s everyone else’s fault, individually and collectively, that Women (en masse) Don’t Like Nice Guys Like Him.
My exposure to rap music is haphazard and limited. I have purchased some odd, small timer CD’s which have a more positive, activist bent, but most are from the early nineties, during hip-hop’s positive growth stage.
My kids also have turned me onto some more positive tunes as they know I have always been highly critical of the mass marketed racist crap.
Also, I read somewhere on a pro hip-hop site or in a mag somewhere that indeed, the drivers of the genre are young, white suburban males. I remember when rap started and it was an isolated happening, coming from the voices of the traditionally unheard or ignored.
I like the more traditional forms of rap as they are about pointing out injustices that I, as a very poor single mother can very much relate to. I also grew up in the racist southern midwest, so I can understand that angst as well.
My best positive take on the whole rap thing has been that hopefully, those reaping the large profits will use their money wisely and support their communities. This has been an important discussion in the rap community that I don’t think is settled or agreed upon in any matter yet.
White males co-opted rap music, in a sense I think what’s new? They co-opt just about every other damn thing in our culture, why not this too.
White males co-opted rap music, in a sense I think what’s new? They co-opt just about every other damn thing in our culture, why not this too.
Well, there’s the thing. If you lived in the UAE, you’d complain that useless urban princes dominated local entertainment options.
It is structure, not race. (Gender is pretty correlated, even allowing some outsiders we’ve seen in the U.S. and ome other western states, and allowing for the random Paris Hilton.)
In some ways, it isn’t surprising - how do you define a dominant group? By pointing to a group that stays dominant. I know that’s reductionist, but it is also true. Whom you replace them with and how you do so is much more interesting, and something I’m still thinking about. Interesting roles, trends, and behaviours there. I don’t have a map of it in my head or on paper yet.
If you do most of your music-listening on the subway, isn’t worth investing in a “sound system” that will let you actually hear the music, and simultaneously help protect you from environmental noise?
Even just the $100 Shure earbuds are pretty good. I have the old “low-end” model (E2c), and they are fine for mobile listening — certainly vastly better than non-isolating headphones.
Flip, my point is pretty simple—I can’t fault anyone for finding something interesting. But I don’t think that people are drawn to crappy gangsta rap for interesting reasons a lot, just plain ol’ racism.
Thanks for the reply. For what it’s worth, I was more invested in the distinction between “sensitive” and “positive” at the very end than in the rap discussion… especially in light of the Ben Folds “Brick” thread a day or so ago, and the misuses of sympathy you read occurring in that song.
Back on topic. I would guess that the frat-boy white rap fan enjoys some of this stuff because that way he can indulge in a few fantasies at the same time: “These guys are cool because they do whatever they want, they get hott rump-shaker hos, and they don’t take shit from anyone; and they get away with it because they’re black, and it’s, like, accepted.” It’s simultaneously a fantasy lifestyle and tantalizingly always out of reach for the oh-so-downtrodden privileged white boy. (The Man, always keeping the white man down.)
But that’s based on what little I ever see of hip-hop anymore, that one TV at the gym set to BET.
Oh, also, Raincitygirl, I missed your reply upstream, but, yeah, if I didn’t know it was me, I probably would have thought my comment was left by one of those kinds of guys too.
I have always believed that the biggest issue that the record companies had with Napster was the opening of the Long Tail, or Heavenly Jukebox. The customer gets to define his own tastes, in a way that make him or her unreachable by relatively low cost marketing.
The commenter above who mentioned crunk is absolutely correct. Mostly hooks, some terrible rhyming about parties, etc, etc, etc…The thing is, I’m not sure that it’s inherently valuable to the listeners. Most people I’ve ever known the music tastes of, approach that kind of stuff as if it was utterly disposable. Use it to run by, or set the party mood, or in general…be noise.
Good music is treasured and relistened. I’m not huge for rap (Rokia Traore gets me gaga), but I’ve been a fan of Wyclef Jean, Manau, Orissas, Michael Franti, MC Solaar, and Digable Planets. And I do accord respect to the likes of Tupac, Notorious B.I.G., and NAS.
phases come and go. most people are too uneducated musicwise to ever expect all that much from their music. So no true Heavenly Jukebox, but perhaps one day it may come.
This is what I was talking about when I wrote to my CBS affiliate, Amanda. Misogyny (and misandry) transcends all genres of music. Examples of misogyny outside of rap music are Brooks & Dunn’s video “Hillbilly Deluxe” and the 2001 re-make of Patti Labelle’s classic “Lady Marmalade” by Lil’ Kim, Mya, Pink and Christina Aguilera.
And this post by Amanda proves why we are all human (meaning no one is perfect):
Which allows me to admit that I have sexist magazines and videos in my drawers and I look at them from time to time. And I will also admit that most music, including those that I like, has been sexist since the late 1970s.
I’ve found a lot of hip-hop that’s thoughtful and interesting and imo pretty awesome. Bother Ali, Aesop Rock, El-P, Psalm One, Spearhead, Cannibal Ox, the list goes on. Like any genre of music, there’s great stuff and there’s absolute shite in hip-hop. The tragic thing is that lots of people think that all there is in hip-hop is the shite.
Oh man, and who could forget the Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy, Michael Franti of Spearhead’s first outing? Classic stuff.
…which I believe is fairly similar to the subject matter of another Ben Folds song, Rockin’ the Suburbs.
“Y’all don’t know what it’s like, being male, middle class, and white.”
Thanks for the reply. For what it’s worth, I was more invested in the distinction between “sensitive” and “positive” at the very end than in the rap discussion…
“Sensitive” is being in touch with and willing to express your own feelings. It has no relationship with being politically aware or even kind to others. Plenty of assholes are deeply in touch with their asshole feelings. “Brick” is a song about a sensitive guy deeply in touch with his sense that his girlfriend’s abortion is a big bummer drag on him.
“Positive” is a term I picked up from rap critics. It means any hip-hop that values lyrical and musical integrity over selling records to racist frat boys.
Original comment: I agree with everything in that post. It’s always surprised me how hard it is to overcome all the latent racism present in discussions of the merits of hip-hop, which I am a big ol’ white female fan of.
I have to say, though, while I love and respect all the artists cited as “positive” here, Talib Kweli really pissed me off when he bitched about birth control in Kanye West’s “Get ‘Em High.”
I think the line goes, directed at a girl met on the internet, “Birth control stuck in your arm like Nicorette/You really fucking that much?”
And to have it pop up in a song done by Kanye, who brought us “Gold Digger;” well, the irony has just been killing me ever since.
a lot of rap critics, and artists (!) use the term “positive” or “conscious” hip-hop to make that distinction. i like conscious as a term because it says something more than sensitive while being a little bit more honest– artists like Mos Def and Jean Grae have wicked homophobic lyrics, at times, but they’re *conscious*. they’re the kind of artists who can pay attention not just to their own feelings but to those of the people in their audience, who knew? that, to me, means they’re a lot more likely to also make music that appeals to anti-racist, feminist, and queer fans and open up the hip-hop style to us, to show that black men who *are* falling into the stereotype are basically doing it to sell, and that there are higher goals to making music, like fun and style. Common is a good example of an artist who’s popular and not so angstified over it to let it turn the music into solipsistic crap– conscious and wildly talented. Okayplayer puts out a lot of music that appeals to that aesthetic.
Country music’s misogyny mirrored what it’s female fans had to deal with on a daily basis.
Right on, Matt T. And yes the feminist stuff does bust its way through on occasion. There’s Loretta singing “Now I’ve Got the Pill” and “One’s on the way.” And she knew what she was singing about — married at 13, four kids by 17…
“Positive” is a term I picked up from rap critics. It means any hip-hop that values lyrical and musical integrity over selling records to racist frat boys.
OK — I’ve heard the term for years, but always assumed it was about fostering “positive” over “negative” images, which would create a problem: if you represent something negative or troubling while doing it intelligently or innovatively, is that “positive” or “negative”? But if positive isn’t exactly the opposite of negative, then that’s not an issue.
I’m new here so what exactly is a “Nice Guy®”
Roll up an inflated sense of sexual entitlement with a complete lack of any personality traits people find interesting, throw in a pinch of disingenuous servility, and you’ll have the general idea.
I mean, people should be nice, obviously. But the guys that whine all the time “but I’m so nice! Why don’t women want to sleep with me ever? Women suck!” are the Nice Guys we’re talking about. Because they’re only assholes towards women, society doesn’t have a problem with them. (It’s kind of the “Eddie Haskell” effect.) Indeed, if society has any comment about Nice Guys, it’s usually “you know, they are nice; why aren’t you sleeping with them, ladies?”
re: that quote about 70% of rap music being bought by white fans. I’ve heard this bandied about for almost ten years, (including a variation, even more specific: 75% of rap is bought by white suburban youth). This makes me a little skeptical: For one, the statistic is never attributed to any source, linked to any study, etc. Two, the claim (70 or 75%) has changed little in ten years, while rap music and its popularity have changed remarkably. Three, it seems very hard to actually verify — how would such data be collected? Since racial data isn’t collected at purchase, did someone do a study of a sample of rap fans and determine their race? If so, that’d yield pretty fuzzy data to make such a specific percentile claim. And what about the surge of online music buying? How does race get collected on that? My last reason for being very skeptical is that this statistic is just way too ubiquitous.
Does anyone have any insights on this — where did this stat come from? Is it real, or just another one of those circular references made all-too-popular by the Internet? We should actually be really careful of these kinds of quotes/statistics/assertions that have become so common as to seem true — but we think that only because they’re so common.
Boycott work! Trust me.
specially bad music (in term of beat, melody, harmony, lyrics)
mainstream hip-hop, as pushed by def jam, tommy boy, interscope, mtv are all nasty. Avoid them, on top of the music, these labels are also closely related to majro media company (Warners, Sony/BMG, universal)
so, the impetus to avoid mainstream hip-hop is large.
Plus, look for underground hip-hop.
feh. the original guts of rap music are the drum breaks cut from funk & jazz records. there are still people doing great digging in there today (notably UK outfit the Visioneers and their Dirty Old Hip Hop release of a few years back) and guess what… it generally comes without the manky lyrical baggage. personally I just don’t need ideology to carry a tune and would rather separate the two. like a-skills sez, gimme the breaks!
The ancestors of hip-hop were the Last Poets. These guys were the real stuff, and they don’t like the misogyny of current musicians.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qovGmbR80qg
Another good group is the Watts Prophets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISUoTJaXVBQ
the label maybe, but the artist can get a lot more, depending on where you get it from. Where I get most of my (paid for) mp3s (mostly emusic, cdbaby, and magnatune) the artist gets at least a 50% cut of the money, which is huge compared to buying a cd from a major label (indies are a lot better in this respect, though)
Not only does a lot of country have that Nice Guy tone to it, there is actually an entire Nice Guy handbook set to music! (Courtesy of Joe Nichols. And yes, I’m admitting to listening to the stuff.) Witness:
What’s… a… guy gotta do to get a girl in this town
Don’t wanna be alone when the sun goes down
Just a sweet little somethin to put my arms around
What’s a guy gotta do to get a girl in this town
Well ask anybody I’m a pretty good guy
And the looks decent wagon didn’t pass me by
There ain’t nothin in my past that I’m tryin hard to hide
And I don’t understand why I gotta wonder why
What’s a guy gotta do to get a girl in this town
Don’t wanna be alone when the sun goes down
Just a sweet little somethin to put my arms around
What’s a guy gotta do to get a girl in this town
Cruise all around the right parking lots
little time gets killed alotta bull gets shot
one who’ll think I’m kinda cute and laugh at every joke I got
when I get to thinkin maybe she’s athinkin maybe not
What’s a guy gotta do to get a girl in this town
Don’t wanna be alone when the sun goes down
Just a sweet little somethin to put my arms around
What’s a guy gotta do to get a girl in this town
Had an old man tell me “Boy if you were smart
you’d hit the produce isle at the Super Walmart”
So I bumped into a pretty girl’s shopping cart
but all I did was break her eggs and bruise her artichoke hearts
What’s a guy gotta do to get a girl in this town
Don’t wanna be alone when the sun goes down
Just a sweet little somethin to put my arms around
What’s a guy gotta do to get a girl in this town
DJ Shadow’s last album,
http://www.djshadow.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=CD033&Category_Code=CDs&Product_Count=3
which is centered around hyfee, which loosly grew out of crunk, is pretty damn good. Whatever the industry does, good stuff will continue to be produced.
btw he’s running a promo right now too for a free CD,
http://www.djshadow.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=CD043&Category_Code=
>>>Uriah Heep, now that’s a band that stands the test of time.
The lead singer lives in my town.
I like the new record by ISWHAT?! They’re a duo out of Cincinnati.
Nice Guyism is that guy who says “I’m a nice guy. I hang listen to all that crap women like to talk about, and I still don’t get any pussy. So fuck that.”
So all the definitions proffered above are correct, and in addition it’s important to note that 1) he’s calling himself a nice guy and you know that when you have to say something about yourself it’s probably not true; 2) he defines his niceness in a way that makes it clear that he doesn’t actually like women; 3) he only describes himself as a Nice Guy when he’s complaining about his lack of success. (3a: He defines getting sex as “success,” which strikes me as hinky.)
Have I missed anything? Overstepped? And how do you make the damn r-in-a-circle thingy?
The 2000 Census listed 71% of the population as white. Shouldn’t it be expected that white people by 70% of rap music?