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	<title>Comments on: A Freeper smacks down the Base over Craig and hypocrisy</title>
	<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/01/a-freeper-smacks-down-the-base-over-craig-and-hypocrisy/</link>
	<description>Just another WordPress weblog</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 16:43:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: anastasi</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/01/a-freeper-smacks-down-the-base-over-craig-and-hypocrisy/#comment-447265</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Sep 2007 15:54:03 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/01/a-freeper-smacks-down-the-base-over-craig-and-hypocrisy/#comment-447265</guid>
					<description>I still don't get it.  I always thought the freepers were like the P.J. O'Rourke Libertarians:  not homophobic, not anti-choice, but with the wacky &quot;no government at all&quot; attitude. 

This guy sounds no better than an AM radio neocon who probably found out a close relative is gay, and, wow, maybe they shouldn't be sentenced to death by stoning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I still don&#8217;t get it.  I always thought the freepers were like the P.J. O&#8217;Rourke Libertarians:  not homophobic, not anti-choice, but with the wacky &#8220;no government at all&#8221; attitude. </p>
	<p>This guy sounds no better than an AM radio neocon who probably found out a close relative is gay, and, wow, maybe they shouldn&#8217;t be sentenced to death by stoning.
</p>
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		<title>by: Jesurgislac</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/01/a-freeper-smacks-down-the-base-over-craig-and-hypocrisy/#comment-447168</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Sep 2007 19:05:01 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/01/a-freeper-smacks-down-the-base-over-craig-and-hypocrisy/#comment-447168</guid>
					<description>Just because this guy is smart enough to realize that gay people exist, and deserve not to be harassed just for existing, doesn't make him not a gibbering idiot.

He talks about &quot;proselytizing&quot; in schools. He claims that same-sex couples getting married is a threat to his own marriage. He's in favor of the government getting to force religious values on people against their will, yet he claims he doesn't approve of &quot;intrusive government&quot;.

He can do a lot more damage than a raving ignorant nutter who thinks that gays go away if you ignore them, because he's sane enough to recognize facts, yet bigoted enough to think that gays ought to be permanent second-class citizens in a theocratic USA.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Just because this guy is smart enough to realize that gay people exist, and deserve not to be harassed just for existing, doesn&#8217;t make him not a gibbering idiot.</p>
	<p>He talks about &#8220;proselytizing&#8221; in schools. He claims that same-sex couples getting married is a threat to his own marriage. He&#8217;s in favor of the government getting to force religious values on people against their will, yet he claims he doesn&#8217;t approve of &#8220;intrusive government&#8221;.</p>
	<p>He can do a lot more damage than a raving ignorant nutter who thinks that gays go away if you ignore them, because he&#8217;s sane enough to recognize facts, yet bigoted enough to think that gays ought to be permanent second-class citizens in a theocratic USA.
</p>
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		<title>by: E</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/01/a-freeper-smacks-down-the-base-over-craig-and-hypocrisy/#comment-447165</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Sep 2007 18:50:30 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/01/a-freeper-smacks-down-the-base-over-craig-and-hypocrisy/#comment-447165</guid>
					<description>@46 - I think the argument is that within its own borders a state must have the right (or power, if you prefer) to enact the will of its people, or there's no reason for it to exist at all. I'm a federalist because I believe a slim majority of Americans actually want to live in a theocratic hellhole, so I would have preferred to sacrifice the red states to them if it means they wouldn't have seized the entire nation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@46 - I think the argument is that within its own borders a state must have the right (or power, if you prefer) to enact the will of its people, or there&#8217;s no reason for it to exist at all. I&#8217;m a federalist because I believe a slim majority of Americans actually want to live in a theocratic hellhole, so I would have preferred to sacrifice the red states to them if it means they wouldn&#8217;t have seized the entire nation.
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		<title>by: Mike The Gee</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/01/a-freeper-smacks-down-the-base-over-craig-and-hypocrisy/#comment-447157</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Sep 2007 17:43:49 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/01/a-freeper-smacks-down-the-base-over-craig-and-hypocrisy/#comment-447157</guid>
					<description>I, for one, have never been propositioned in a restroom...strangely though I don't have a friend called Dorothy either!! 

He, of course, can no longer call himself a Conservative (with a big C) 'cos Conservatism is based on, resistance to change, to hold to all that was dear, things were better in the old days, crap. (that great twisted 'by civilised' ancesters shit is a doosie!).
Conservatives (as all are) closets are just full to overflowing and it's no great surprise when a lovely fat flounder like a senator falls out on to the floor for it's former colleagues to feast on. It's what makes spectatin' great!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I, for one, have never been propositioned in a restroom&#8230;strangely though I don&#8217;t have a friend called Dorothy either!! </p>
	<p>He, of course, can no longer call himself a Conservative (with a big C) &#8216;cos Conservatism is based on, resistance to change, to hold to all that was dear, things were better in the old days, crap. (that great twisted &#8216;by civilised&#8217; ancesters shit is a doosie!).<br />
Conservatives (as all are) closets are just full to overflowing and it&#8217;s no great surprise when a lovely fat flounder like a senator falls out on to the floor for it&#8217;s former colleagues to feast on. It&#8217;s what makes spectatin&#8217; great!
</p>
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		<title>by: Damian</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/01/a-freeper-smacks-down-the-base-over-craig-and-hypocrisy/#comment-447150</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Sep 2007 16:06:12 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/01/a-freeper-smacks-down-the-base-over-craig-and-hypocrisy/#comment-447150</guid>
					<description>Teh fact that he uses the phrase &quot;states' rights&quot; invalidates any other opinion he may have.  States don't HAVE rights. PEOPLE have rights.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Teh fact that he uses the phrase &#8220;states&#8217; rights&#8221; invalidates any other opinion he may have.  States don&#8217;t HAVE rights. PEOPLE have rights.
</p>
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		<title>by: Sarah in Chicago</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/01/a-freeper-smacks-down-the-base-over-craig-and-hypocrisy/#comment-447149</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Sep 2007 15:50:03 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/01/a-freeper-smacks-down-the-base-over-craig-and-hypocrisy/#comment-447149</guid>
					<description>Mike -

This particular incident with Craig may not be harassment of the specific type that is routinely used against gay men. Nonetheless, this one incident doesn't change the fact that the majority of such laws ARE placed almost exclusively onto gay men.

Further, I think there IS some degree of this being a correct application of the law. However, that doesn't stop it being discriminatory &lt;i&gt;also&lt;/i&gt;. To merely look to one location for an act, especially when it comes to the law, is a rather simplistic approach.

Oh, and your contention that gay men are no long forced into bathroom sex is also an oversimplification.  Some men ARE forced into such by the nature of their (sub)cultures and communities. The idea that all gay men are now completely free to pursue relationships and sex just like straight men are is a fantasy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Mike -</p>
	<p>This particular incident with Craig may not be harassment of the specific type that is routinely used against gay men. Nonetheless, this one incident doesn&#8217;t change the fact that the majority of such laws ARE placed almost exclusively onto gay men.</p>
	<p>Further, I think there IS some degree of this being a correct application of the law. However, that doesn&#8217;t stop it being discriminatory <i>also</i>. To merely look to one location for an act, especially when it comes to the law, is a rather simplistic approach.</p>
	<p>Oh, and your contention that gay men are no long forced into bathroom sex is also an oversimplification.  Some men ARE forced into such by the nature of their (sub)cultures and communities. The idea that all gay men are now completely free to pursue relationships and sex just like straight men are is a fantasy.
</p>
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		<title>by: Mike Toreno</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/01/a-freeper-smacks-down-the-base-over-craig-and-hypocrisy/#comment-447147</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Sep 2007 15:39:35 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/01/a-freeper-smacks-down-the-base-over-craig-and-hypocrisy/#comment-447147</guid>
					<description>Sarah, I'm not completely sold on the view that harassment of gays was what was happening in this case.  The police contend that there were complaints of this behavior in the bathroom, and chasing out people who were using the bathroom in ways that interfered with other users was a legitimate action.  There are plenty of places for gay men to go to have sex, they don't have to do it in public spaces that are dedicated to other uses.

BUT, did Craig leer through the crack in the door in response to signals from the policeman?  I am suspicious that he did; why did he pick the policeman in particular if the policeman wasn't making overtures?  If the policeman was making overtures, the legitimacy of the arrest diminishes a great deal.  But Craig didn't make that argument, and was seriously inhibited from making it by the way he's lived his life.  He wasn't going to say, &quot;You were coming on to me, I recognized the signals and responded to your invitation.  'Interference with privacy, forsooth!'&quot;

I've heard this incident described as reflecting a clash between older gay culture and newer gay culture.  During Craig's formative years, places like bathrooms were where you went, a lot of gay sex took place in furtive, shadowy encounters.  So this sort of activity was natural to someone in that era, and the police really had no moral right to interfere, since it was prejudice and harassment that made it necessary.

Now, I think the situation has changed.  Gay men are not forced into furtive bathroom sex, and there's a lot more reasonableness in the police clearing sexual encounters out of the bathroom - especially an airside bathroom, where people trying to catch a flight shouldn't have to wait for a stall to be vacated by two men who are having sex in it, taking more time than they are rightly entitled to.

You could be right.  It could be harassment.  But I am not yet convinced of that, although I have some suspicion.  But my argument, I think, is at least a legitimate one, and may in fact reflect what was happening in this case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sarah, I&#8217;m not completely sold on the view that harassment of gays was what was happening in this case.  The police contend that there were complaints of this behavior in the bathroom, and chasing out people who were using the bathroom in ways that interfered with other users was a legitimate action.  There are plenty of places for gay men to go to have sex, they don&#8217;t have to do it in public spaces that are dedicated to other uses.</p>
	<p>BUT, did Craig leer through the crack in the door in response to signals from the policeman?  I am suspicious that he did; why did he pick the policeman in particular if the policeman wasn&#8217;t making overtures?  If the policeman was making overtures, the legitimacy of the arrest diminishes a great deal.  But Craig didn&#8217;t make that argument, and was seriously inhibited from making it by the way he&#8217;s lived his life.  He wasn&#8217;t going to say, &#8220;You were coming on to me, I recognized the signals and responded to your invitation.  &#8216;Interference with privacy, forsooth!&#8217;&#8221;</p>
	<p>I&#8217;ve heard this incident described as reflecting a clash between older gay culture and newer gay culture.  During Craig&#8217;s formative years, places like bathrooms were where you went, a lot of gay sex took place in furtive, shadowy encounters.  So this sort of activity was natural to someone in that era, and the police really had no moral right to interfere, since it was prejudice and harassment that made it necessary.</p>
	<p>Now, I think the situation has changed.  Gay men are not forced into furtive bathroom sex, and there&#8217;s a lot more reasonableness in the police clearing sexual encounters out of the bathroom - especially an airside bathroom, where people trying to catch a flight shouldn&#8217;t have to wait for a stall to be vacated by two men who are having sex in it, taking more time than they are rightly entitled to.</p>
	<p>You could be right.  It could be harassment.  But I am not yet convinced of that, although I have some suspicion.  But my argument, I think, is at least a legitimate one, and may in fact reflect what was happening in this case.
</p>
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		<title>by: Hysterical Woman</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/01/a-freeper-smacks-down-the-base-over-craig-and-hypocrisy/#comment-447134</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Sep 2007 13:15:29 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/01/a-freeper-smacks-down-the-base-over-craig-and-hypocrisy/#comment-447134</guid>
					<description>Freeper:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Hypocrisy should be properly understood as the absence of standards rather than the failure to live up to standards.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

No, hypocrisy is having two sets of standards: one for yourself and one for other, usually lesser, people. Frankly, I don't think anyone can have a absence of standards.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Freeper:</p>
	<blockquote><p>Hypocrisy should be properly understood as the absence of standards rather than the failure to live up to standards.</p></blockquote>
	<p>No, hypocrisy is having two sets of standards: one for yourself and one for other, usually lesser, people. Frankly, I don&#8217;t think anyone can have a absence of standards.
</p>
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		<title>by: micheyd</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/01/a-freeper-smacks-down-the-base-over-craig-and-hypocrisy/#comment-447120</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Sep 2007 09:58:29 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/01/a-freeper-smacks-down-the-base-over-craig-and-hypocrisy/#comment-447120</guid>
					<description>Oops wrong thread! Sorry!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oops wrong thread! Sorry!
</p>
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		<title>by: micheyd</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/01/a-freeper-smacks-down-the-base-over-craig-and-hypocrisy/#comment-447119</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Sep 2007 09:58:05 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/09/01/a-freeper-smacks-down-the-base-over-craig-and-hypocrisy/#comment-447119</guid>
					<description>You know, reproductive rights *would* be a stale issue if the theofascist Republicans would leave it the fuck alone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>You know, reproductive rights *would* be a stale issue if the theofascist Republicans would leave it the fuck alone.
</p>
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