Comments on: Scapegoating those who stayed behind http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/08/30/5984/ Just another WordPress weblog Tue, 10 Nov 2009 00:40:52 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=1.5.1-alpha by: The Sister http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/08/30/5984/#comment-447687 Wed, 05 Sep 2007 15:18:28 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/08/30/5984/#comment-447687 Trying to compare a navy ship to a hospital is rather silly! Especially a hospital that is trying to function at some level during a natural disaster. Navy ships are created, maintained and run so that they can function for long periods of time without outside help during natural disasters, war time EVEN durning PEACE. It's their purpose. The people on these ships are trained to do so as well. You cannot expect a hospital to be really well prepared for those kinds of circumstances. Especially those that New Orleans was dealing with. Besides all of the readiness navy ships have, each person is highly trained to do very specific things which does not include dealing with more than half the ship's crew being unable to preform their duties. The doctor's and nurses in New Orleans that actually stayed behind have amazing hearts. They were basically dealing with a sinking ship and a skeleton crew. Bravo to Dr. Pou and those nurses for doing the best they could with what they had! Shame on the local government, the state government and the national government for doing nothing. A side note: I had a friend that was a marine reservist at the time of Katrina. His unit was mobilized and sent to New Orleans and Baton Rouge to aid those that needed help. He and his fellow soldiers were appauled when what they were ORDERED to do was clean up the mayor's house. (There were still people in the convention center and stadium. Still people on roof tops waiting for help. I'm sure the hospitals hadn't been completely evacuated at this time. And his job was to pick up the mayor's YARD!!) We do need to quit blaming the people who stayed to help. They gave alot and we repay them by ignoring them or prosecuting them. Shame on the State of Louisiana! Trying to compare a navy ship to a hospital is rather silly! Especially a hospital that is trying to function at some level during a natural disaster. Navy ships are created, maintained and run so that they can function for long periods of time without outside help during natural disasters, war time EVEN durning PEACE. It’s their purpose. The people on these ships are trained to do so as well. You cannot expect a hospital to be really well prepared for those kinds of circumstances. Especially those that New Orleans was dealing with. Besides all of the readiness navy ships have, each person is highly trained to do very specific things which does not include dealing with more than half the ship’s crew being unable to preform their duties. The doctor’s and nurses in New Orleans that actually stayed behind have amazing hearts. They were basically dealing with a sinking ship and a skeleton crew. Bravo to Dr. Pou and those nurses for doing the best they could with what they had! Shame on the local government, the state government and the national government for doing nothing.
A side note: I had a friend that was a marine reservist at the time of Katrina. His unit was mobilized and sent to New Orleans and Baton Rouge to aid those that needed help. He and his fellow soldiers were appauled when what they were ORDERED to do was clean up the mayor’s house. (There were still people in the convention center and stadium. Still people on roof tops waiting for help. I’m sure the hospitals hadn’t been completely evacuated at this time. And his job was to pick up the mayor’s YARD!!) We do need to quit blaming the people who stayed to help. They gave alot and we repay them by ignoring them or prosecuting them. Shame on the State of Louisiana!

]]> by: Craig R. http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/08/30/5984/#comment-447372 Tue, 04 Sep 2007 10:32:02 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/08/30/5984/#comment-447372 My father died of complications from eshophigial cancer. During his last several days he was not competent, but in extreme pain, as was evident to anybody watching over him. His attending, two days before my father died, gathered the family together He reitereted that my father was going to pass very soon. He broached the tactic of pain management to increase dosages of morphine by multiples of what he was currently receiving. My mother reluctantly agreed. My sister, even in the full knowledge that my father was not going to live more than a week, at the outside, went start bonkers and browbeat my mother into refusing permission, on the grounds that my father "would get addicted." There is a certain mindset among some people that medical reality is suspended because they wish it so. Thus, those who imagine that a hospital that is flooded, no power for lights, refrigeration or HVAC and with close to no supplies can, by some effort of Randian will, be able to function normally. My father died of complications from eshophigial cancer.

During his last several days he was not competent, but in extreme pain, as was evident to anybody watching over him.

His attending, two days before my father died, gathered the family together He reitereted that my father was going to pass very soon. He broached the tactic of pain management to increase dosages of morphine by multiples of what he was currently receiving.

My mother reluctantly agreed.

My sister, even in the full knowledge that my father was not going to live more than a week, at the outside, went start bonkers and browbeat my mother into refusing permission, on the grounds that my father “would get addicted.”

There is a certain mindset among some people that medical reality is suspended because they wish it so.

Thus, those who imagine that a hospital that is flooded, no power for lights, refrigeration or HVAC and with close to no supplies can, by some effort of Randian will, be able to function normally.

]]> by: ninjanurse http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/08/30/5984/#comment-447179 Sun, 02 Sep 2007 20:37:15 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/08/30/5984/#comment-447179 remember that Dr. Pou said that she did not give fatal overdoses or intend to. consider that she is telling the truth. the paid medical experts charles foti recruited have credibility problems of their own. a doctor who claimed he heard talk of euthanasia abandoned the hospital early and walked away from all the sick people there. the grand jury was tasked to hear the prosecution's argument and decide if it was credible. if they were doing their job they heard the evidence and judged that there was not sufficient to take it to trial. by pressing criminal charges charles foti destroyed the good name of a doctor and two nurses, and made it less likely that the families of the people who died will get to hear the whole truth. remember that Dr. Pou said that she did not give fatal overdoses or intend to. consider that she is telling the truth. the paid medical experts charles foti recruited have credibility problems of their own. a doctor who claimed he heard talk of euthanasia abandoned the hospital early and walked away from all the sick people there. the grand jury was tasked to hear the prosecution’s argument and decide if it was credible. if they were doing their job they heard the evidence and judged that there was not sufficient to take it to trial.
by pressing criminal charges charles foti destroyed the good name of a doctor and two nurses, and made it less likely that the families of the people who died will get to hear the whole truth.

]]> by: Mark Foxwell http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/08/30/5984/#comment-447122 Sun, 02 Sep 2007 10:01:44 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/08/30/5984/#comment-447122 I always figured that in case of natural disaster, foreseen or not, it was the American way for "the government," without a lot of quarreling over whose baliwick was what, and "civil society"--Red Cross, Scouts, religious organizations, etc--to step in ASAP and pragmatically work together as they had in countless similar situations before. One might gripe about the outcomes, but all the foot-dragging, blame-shifting, and other pettifogging of the Bush Admin was gobstoppingly out of that paradigm. Anyone who knew their real track record, or the specific pleas and complaints of people on the ground in the Gulf Coast area years before the storm formed, or for that matter the stated intentions of BushCo, not to mention their specific track record in Iraq, nor even needing to consider how much of the usual responders (National Guard especially) were tied up over there, would not have been surprised. But we were all appalled nonetheless. So, no, I'd expect entities like hospitals to have a reasonable reserve of stuff for emergencies, but that it was only reasonable for such organizations to plan on the assumption that those were just to tide them over until the cavalry arrived, as we expect in the USA. I always figured that in case of natural disaster, foreseen or not, it was the American way for “the government,” without a lot of quarreling over whose baliwick was what, and “civil society”–Red Cross, Scouts, religious organizations, etc–to step in ASAP and pragmatically work together as they had in countless similar situations before. One might gripe about the outcomes, but all the foot-dragging, blame-shifting, and other pettifogging of the Bush Admin was gobstoppingly out of that paradigm. Anyone who knew their real track record, or the specific pleas and complaints of people on the ground in the Gulf Coast area years before the storm formed, or for that matter the stated intentions of BushCo, not to mention their specific track record in Iraq, nor even needing to consider how much of the usual responders (National Guard especially) were tied up over there, would not have been surprised.

But we were all appalled nonetheless.

So, no, I’d expect entities like hospitals to have a reasonable reserve of stuff for emergencies, but that it was only reasonable for such organizations to plan on the assumption that those were just to tide them over until the cavalry arrived, as we expect in the USA.

]]> by: paul http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/08/30/5984/#comment-447064 Sat, 01 Sep 2007 20:21:25 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/08/30/5984/#comment-447064 Another side of the disaster planning: who's will to get fired during the non-disaster times by saying, "We have to take these millions of dollars away from caring for our current patients, some of whom will die as a result, so that we can potentially do a better job taking care of patients during a natural disaster"? Some of the preparedness is obvious and necessary, but some of it is simply to big for any single large institution to shoulder. Another side of the disaster planning: who’s will to get fired during the non-disaster times by saying, “We have to take these millions of dollars away from caring for our current patients, some of whom will die as a result, so that we can potentially do a better job taking care of patients during a natural disaster”?

Some of the preparedness is obvious and necessary, but some of it is simply to big for any single large institution to shoulder.

]]> by: Mercurial Georgia http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/08/30/5984/#comment-447000 Sat, 01 Sep 2007 12:55:47 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/08/30/5984/#comment-447000 Re: The Terri thing again I'm reminded of /an/ unfortunate American tendency to follow the letter of the law in defiance of the spirit. I consider it a gross violation of human rights, that Terri was allowed to die of starvation, which was what they did to her when they pulled out the feeding tube. If a patient can't feed himself because his arms are injured, for example, and his caregivers didn't feed him and allowed him to die of hunger, than they are guilty of neglecting him to his death. They should have either a)Continue the feeding tube OR b) give her morphine. It's just plainly sadistic stupidity that it's legal to starve her to death but not to give her a lethal injection, or put her under. I don't remember feeling any pain from the gas mask when I went under for a surgery, just do that but more. - MG Re: The Terri thing again

I’m reminded of /an/ unfortunate American tendency to follow the letter of the law in defiance of the spirit.

I consider it a gross violation of human rights, that Terri was allowed to die of starvation, which was what they did to her when they pulled out the feeding tube. If a patient can’t feed himself because his arms are injured, for example, and his caregivers didn’t feed him and allowed him to die of hunger, than they are guilty of neglecting him to his death.

They should have either a)Continue the feeding tube OR b) give her morphine. It’s just plainly sadistic stupidity that it’s legal to starve her to death but not to give her a lethal injection, or put her under. I don’t remember feeling any pain from the gas mask when I went under for a surgery, just do that but more.

- MG

]]> by: Mercurial Georgia http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/08/30/5984/#comment-446996 Sat, 01 Sep 2007 12:30:45 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/08/30/5984/#comment-446996 I'm so glad that at least the jury had sanity instead of sanctimony. I’m so glad that at least the jury had sanity instead of sanctimony.

]]> by: Therese, Bishop of Brownies http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/08/30/5984/#comment-446972 Sat, 01 Sep 2007 10:24:08 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/08/30/5984/#comment-446972 Of course morphine can hasten death. Duh. That doesn't mean it's unethical to use it in palliative care. Once you know that you can't save someone, you need to relieve suffering, which includes giving enough painkillers to actually stop pain (and cancer pain is especially difficult to deal with). That's quite different from terminal sedation. If the power in the hospital was out, it means no oxygen for patients with respiratory failure, no dialysis for patients with kidney failure, no ECG monitors for cardiology patients (which means you don't know how much arrythmia medication you can give), no ventilators for ICU patients, no surgery for trauma patients, no manual defibrillators working... Relieving pain is one thing you can do without access to electricity. Of course morphine can hasten death. Duh. That doesn’t mean it’s unethical to use it in palliative care. Once you know that you can’t save someone, you need to relieve suffering, which includes giving enough painkillers to actually stop pain (and cancer pain is especially difficult to deal with). That’s quite different from terminal sedation.

If the power in the hospital was out, it means no oxygen for patients with respiratory failure, no dialysis for patients with kidney failure, no ECG monitors for cardiology patients (which means you don’t know how much arrythmia medication you can give), no ventilators for ICU patients, no surgery for trauma patients, no manual defibrillators working… Relieving pain is one thing you can do without access to electricity.

]]> by: hamletta http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/08/30/5984/#comment-446927 Fri, 31 Aug 2007 21:04:38 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/08/30/5984/#comment-446927 And another thing: If the emergency plans were indeed inadequate, how is that the responsibility of the doctor and nurses? They didn't draw them up. And another thing: If the emergency plans were indeed inadequate, how is that the responsibility of the doctor and nurses? They didn’t draw them up.

]]> by: Lizzie, Deity of French Press http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/08/30/5984/#comment-446922 Fri, 31 Aug 2007 20:20:59 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/08/30/5984/#comment-446922 yes, to call out what someone mentioned above: the situation in which Dr Pou found herself is more analogous to the situation on a carrier proximate to the Pearl Harbor bombings than to an ordinarily functioning carrier. Let's not forget that aircraft carriers have LIGHTS and RUNNING WATER, two things Pou and her staff were operating without. So, anyone wanna ask a WWII vet how calm and peaceful things were during Pearl Harbor? Anyone wanna grill him or her about "bad decisions" that had unfortunate consequences? yes, to call out what someone mentioned above: the situation in which Dr Pou found herself is more analogous to the situation on a carrier proximate to the Pearl Harbor bombings than to an ordinarily functioning carrier. Let’s not forget that aircraft carriers have LIGHTS and RUNNING WATER, two things Pou and her staff were operating without.

So, anyone wanna ask a WWII vet how calm and peaceful things were during Pearl Harbor? Anyone wanna grill him or her about “bad decisions” that had unfortunate consequences?

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