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	<title>Comments on: Asheville, NC: alleged flag desecration results in fight and arrests</title>
	<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/29/asheville-nc-alleged-flag-desecration-results-in-fight-and-arrests/</link>
	<description>Just another WordPress weblog</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 02:11:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Mau de Katt</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/29/asheville-nc-alleged-flag-desecration-results-in-fight-and-arrests/#comment-437731</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 02:53:37 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/29/asheville-nc-alleged-flag-desecration-results-in-fight-and-arrests/#comment-437731</guid>
					<description>I heard Ms. Kuhn on the radio this past Friday night, on the Jon Elliott show (AAR).  She stated that the whole thing started with a guy in an Army Reserve uniform coming to their door to complain about the flag.  They explained what-n-why, and he left.  Then the drive-bys started, people in Army uniforms driving slowly by their house, some takign pictures.

Then the deputy arrived.  Contrary to the official report (says Ms. Kuhn), he did NOT attempt to give them a citation, and AFTER they took the flag down he asked them for ID, but they asked him why he wanted it, and then they went back into their house.  The deputy then began pounding on their door, and &lt;i&gt;broke in the window with his bare hand&lt;/i&gt; to open the door.  He then began chasing Mr. Kuhn through the house, back out the front door, and around their car.  Ms. Kuhn called 911 to report that the deputy had broken into their house and was assaulting him.  Mr. Kuhn surrendered when he was threatened with a TASERing.  Ms. Kuhn was also threatened with a TASER.

It's worth noting that the Kuhns have witnesses to their version of what happened, and that the neighbors who tried to intervene, asked why the Kuhns were being arrested, were told it wasn't any of their business.  (Unlike a lot of places, the neighbors said it &lt;i&gt;was&lt;/i&gt; their business, because the Kuhns were their neighbors.)  Also, Ms. Kuhn said that the deputy was a recently-returned Iraqi-war vet, and that the tactics he used on them were the same ones they use in Baghdad for search-and-seizures.

The official police report is so far opposite from the Kuhn's account that it's easy to say the Kuhns are the same as anyone saying &quot;I'm innocent, I tell ya!&quot; except, well, THEY HAVE WITNESSES.  And they were just hanging a friggin' &lt;i&gt;flag&lt;/i&gt; upside down, not molesting kids!

I have a problem with the whole &quot;flag desecration&quot; argument anyway.  &quot;Desecration&quot; means &quot;to make unsacred by defilement.&quot;  Since when is the American Frikkin' Flag a &lt;i&gt;holy object&lt;/i&gt;, anyway?  Isn't that idolatry?  Isn't that breaking one of the Ten Commandments?  And why aren't the fundies complaining about &quot;sacred flags,&quot; instead of &quot;de&lt;i&gt;secrating&lt;/i&gt;&quot; said flags, in the first place???</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I heard Ms. Kuhn on the radio this past Friday night, on the Jon Elliott show (AAR).  She stated that the whole thing started with a guy in an Army Reserve uniform coming to their door to complain about the flag.  They explained what-n-why, and he left.  Then the drive-bys started, people in Army uniforms driving slowly by their house, some takign pictures.</p>
	<p>Then the deputy arrived.  Contrary to the official report (says Ms. Kuhn), he did NOT attempt to give them a citation, and AFTER they took the flag down he asked them for ID, but they asked him why he wanted it, and then they went back into their house.  The deputy then began pounding on their door, and <i>broke in the window with his bare hand</i> to open the door.  He then began chasing Mr. Kuhn through the house, back out the front door, and around their car.  Ms. Kuhn called 911 to report that the deputy had broken into their house and was assaulting him.  Mr. Kuhn surrendered when he was threatened with a TASERing.  Ms. Kuhn was also threatened with a TASER.</p>
	<p>It&#8217;s worth noting that the Kuhns have witnesses to their version of what happened, and that the neighbors who tried to intervene, asked why the Kuhns were being arrested, were told it wasn&#8217;t any of their business.  (Unlike a lot of places, the neighbors said it <i>was</i> their business, because the Kuhns were their neighbors.)  Also, Ms. Kuhn said that the deputy was a recently-returned Iraqi-war vet, and that the tactics he used on them were the same ones they use in Baghdad for search-and-seizures.</p>
	<p>The official police report is so far opposite from the Kuhn&#8217;s account that it&#8217;s easy to say the Kuhns are the same as anyone saying &#8220;I&#8217;m innocent, I tell ya!&#8221; except, well, THEY HAVE WITNESSES.  And they were just hanging a friggin&#8217; <i>flag</i> upside down, not molesting kids!</p>
	<p>I have a problem with the whole &#8220;flag desecration&#8221; argument anyway.  &#8220;Desecration&#8221; means &#8220;to make unsacred by defilement.&#8221;  Since when is the American Frikkin&#8217; Flag a <i>holy object</i>, anyway?  Isn&#8217;t that idolatry?  Isn&#8217;t that breaking one of the Ten Commandments?  And why aren&#8217;t the fundies complaining about &#8220;sacred flags,&#8221; instead of &#8220;de<i>secrating</i>&#8221; said flags, in the first place???
</p>
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		<title>by: Melly</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/29/asheville-nc-alleged-flag-desecration-results-in-fight-and-arrests/#comment-437295</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 09:36:21 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/29/asheville-nc-alleged-flag-desecration-results-in-fight-and-arrests/#comment-437295</guid>
					<description>I tried to leave this yesterday but was having trouble with the site.

This is an Asheville &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ashevillerock.com/board/comments.php?DiscussionID=83&amp;amp;page=1#Item_0&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;music discussion board&lt;/a&gt; but in this case the commentor posted the Kuhn's neighbor's description of events...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I tried to leave this yesterday but was having trouble with the site.</p>
	<p>This is an Asheville <a href="http://www.ashevillerock.com/board/comments.php?DiscussionID=83&amp;page=1#Item_0" rel="nofollow">music discussion board</a> but in this case the commentor posted the Kuhn&#8217;s neighbor&#8217;s description of events&#8230;
</p>
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		<title>by: Meg Thornton</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/29/asheville-nc-alleged-flag-desecration-results-in-fight-and-arrests/#comment-437267</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 07:29:39 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/29/asheville-nc-alleged-flag-desecration-results-in-fight-and-arrests/#comment-437267</guid>
					<description>Another culture gap, it seems.  While most Australians will get reasonably enthused about our country's flag *as a symbol of our country*, we're not likely to take this enthusiasm to the extent that we're going to get narked about someone using it as a political prop.  Then again, we don't seem to have the same sort of hyper-patriotic environment as the US (despite the efforts of our current Prime Minister in such a direction), which means home flagpoles aren't exactly a regular feature.  A controversy about the Australian flag is more likely to be related to the periodic attempts to redesign the thing than it is to what someone's done with it.

Actually, the last controversial flag-usage related incident I can think of in the Australian political scene was when Cathy Freeman did a victory lap at one of the Commonwealth games, carrying both an Australian flag, and the Indigenous Australian flag, and even that controversy mainly came out of the reactions of some of the more conservative members of the Australian Commonwealth Games committee.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Another culture gap, it seems.  While most Australians will get reasonably enthused about our country&#8217;s flag *as a symbol of our country*, we&#8217;re not likely to take this enthusiasm to the extent that we&#8217;re going to get narked about someone using it as a political prop.  Then again, we don&#8217;t seem to have the same sort of hyper-patriotic environment as the US (despite the efforts of our current Prime Minister in such a direction), which means home flagpoles aren&#8217;t exactly a regular feature.  A controversy about the Australian flag is more likely to be related to the periodic attempts to redesign the thing than it is to what someone&#8217;s done with it.</p>
	<p>Actually, the last controversial flag-usage related incident I can think of in the Australian political scene was when Cathy Freeman did a victory lap at one of the Commonwealth games, carrying both an Australian flag, and the Indigenous Australian flag, and even that controversy mainly came out of the reactions of some of the more conservative members of the Australian Commonwealth Games committee.
</p>
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		<title>by: deep6</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/29/asheville-nc-alleged-flag-desecration-results-in-fight-and-arrests/#comment-437218</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2007 23:41:06 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/29/asheville-nc-alleged-flag-desecration-results-in-fight-and-arrests/#comment-437218</guid>
					<description>I would find it emotionally disturbing, even upsetting, to burn a flag.  Even to desecrate one.  Flags on pizza boxes and on large stickers, or flag cross-stitch pillow patterns or underwear I find humorous, and also tasteless, but I could never imagine myself supporting fines or jail time for someone who would choose to desecrate or burn a flag.  To me, it's one of those tasteless freedoms we have to have as a country to ensure that freedom of speech isn't limited to whatever is comfortably political.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I would find it emotionally disturbing, even upsetting, to burn a flag.  Even to desecrate one.  Flags on pizza boxes and on large stickers, or flag cross-stitch pillow patterns or underwear I find humorous, and also tasteless, but I could never imagine myself supporting fines or jail time for someone who would choose to desecrate or burn a flag.  To me, it&#8217;s one of those tasteless freedoms we have to have as a country to ensure that freedom of speech isn&#8217;t limited to whatever is comfortably political.
</p>
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		<title>by: Kate217</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/29/asheville-nc-alleged-flag-desecration-results-in-fight-and-arrests/#comment-437128</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2007 18:57:38 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/29/asheville-nc-alleged-flag-desecration-results-in-fight-and-arrests/#comment-437128</guid>
					<description>By definition, one cannot desecrate an object that is not sacred.  As we have constitutionally protected separation of church and state, the flag is not a sacred object, and thus &lt;i&gt;cannot&lt;/i&gt; be &quot;desecrated.&quot;  It can be disrespected but, so far, disrespect is not criminally punishable (except as a contempt of court charge).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>By definition, one cannot desecrate an object that is not sacred.  As we have constitutionally protected separation of church and state, the flag is not a sacred object, and thus <i>cannot</i> be &#8220;desecrated.&#8221;  It can be disrespected but, so far, disrespect is not criminally punishable (except as a contempt of court charge).
</p>
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		<title>by: six-oh-seven-nine</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/29/asheville-nc-alleged-flag-desecration-results-in-fight-and-arrests/#comment-437033</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2007 13:32:19 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/29/asheville-nc-alleged-flag-desecration-results-in-fight-and-arrests/#comment-437033</guid>
					<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I know serious prosecution is probably unlikely under the current justice department,&lt;/blockquote&gt;Or anywhere else with any other law enforcement agency, federal, state or municipal.  Read Radley Balko's &quot; new professionalism&quot;* stories in &lt;a href=&quot;www.theagitator.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Agitator&lt;/a&gt; if you really want to be depressed about it.

* - The title is a nod to Justice Scalia's opinion in the no-knock cases which said, in effect, Americans really don't constitutional protections (ie: the exclusionary rule) any more because police departments are so well-trained and professional now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<blockquote><p>I know serious prosecution is probably unlikely under the current justice department,</blockquote>
Or anywhere else with any other law enforcement agency, federal, state or municipal.  Read Radley Balko&#8217;s &#8221; new professionalism&#8221;* stories in <a href="www.theagitator.com" rel="nofollow">The Agitator</a> if you really want to be depressed about it.</p>
	<p>* - The title is a nod to Justice Scalia&#8217;s opinion in the no-knock cases which said, in effect, Americans really don&#8217;t constitutional protections (ie: the exclusionary rule) any more because police departments are so well-trained and professional now.
</p>
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		<title>by: Sarcastro</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/29/asheville-nc-alleged-flag-desecration-results-in-fight-and-arrests/#comment-437020</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2007 12:58:45 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/29/asheville-nc-alleged-flag-desecration-results-in-fight-and-arrests/#comment-437020</guid>
					<description>A flag is a symbol and thus should be left to the symbol-minded.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>A flag is a symbol and thus should be left to the symbol-minded.
</p>
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		<title>by: paul</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/29/asheville-nc-alleged-flag-desecration-results-in-fight-and-arrests/#comment-436989</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2007 12:17:25 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/29/asheville-nc-alleged-flag-desecration-results-in-fight-and-arrests/#comment-436989</guid>
					<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The backstory: Brevard Road is near the National Guard armory, and it appears that a Freeperish NG type called up his buddy the county deputy to do a bit of freelance po-licing, even though the address is within the city limits.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

If that's accurate, the Kuhns' lawyer should be sending a letter to the local FBI office, asking them to investigate the violation of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cid/civilrights/statutes.htm#section242&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;18USC, Section 242&lt;/a&gt;, which prohibits use of ostensible law-enforcement powers to prevent people from exercising their civil rights or punish them for doing so. If a weapon is involved (armed deputy) that's 10 years in the Federal pen.

I know serious prosecution is probably unlikely under the current justice department, but the FBI &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cid/civilrights/color.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;tells citizens&lt;/a&gt; that they should report such crimes when they hear of them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<blockquote><p>The backstory: Brevard Road is near the National Guard armory, and it appears that a Freeperish NG type called up his buddy the county deputy to do a bit of freelance po-licing, even though the address is within the city limits.</p></blockquote>
	<p>If that&#8217;s accurate, the Kuhns&#8217; lawyer should be sending a letter to the local FBI office, asking them to investigate the violation of <a href="http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cid/civilrights/statutes.htm#section242" rel="nofollow">18USC, Section 242</a>, which prohibits use of ostensible law-enforcement powers to prevent people from exercising their civil rights or punish them for doing so. If a weapon is involved (armed deputy) that&#8217;s 10 years in the Federal pen.</p>
	<p>I know serious prosecution is probably unlikely under the current justice department, but the FBI <a href="http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cid/civilrights/color.htm" rel="nofollow">tells citizens</a> that they should report such crimes when they hear of them.
</p>
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		<title>by: bernarda</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/29/asheville-nc-alleged-flag-desecration-results-in-fight-and-arrests/#comment-436978</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2007 11:47:35 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/29/asheville-nc-alleged-flag-desecration-results-in-fight-and-arrests/#comment-436978</guid>
					<description>To get around fascist flag laws, just make a flag with 11 stripes and 55 stars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>To get around fascist flag laws, just make a flag with 11 stripes and 55 stars.
</p>
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		<title>by: rea</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/29/asheville-nc-alleged-flag-desecration-results-in-fight-and-arrests/#comment-436975</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2007 11:45:37 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/29/asheville-nc-alleged-flag-desecration-results-in-fight-and-arrests/#comment-436975</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;The flag may be flown upside down as a distress signal, but it should not serve as a prop expressing a political point.&lt;/i&gt;

I see.  So all the  politicians wearing American flag lapel pins ought to be arrested?

The whole purpose of the Amercan flag is that it expresses a political point, although not always a partisan one.  It was to express a political point that Amerian soliders raised the flag over Ft. McHenry . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>The flag may be flown upside down as a distress signal, but it should not serve as a prop expressing a political point.</i></p>
	<p>I see.  So all the  politicians wearing American flag lapel pins ought to be arrested?</p>
	<p>The whole purpose of the Amercan flag is that it expresses a political point, although not always a partisan one.  It was to express a political point that Amerian soliders raised the flag over Ft. McHenry . . .
</p>
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