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	<title>Comments on: NY Magazine: married men on the down low</title>
	<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/24/ny-magazine-married-men-on-the-down-low/</link>
	<description>Just another WordPress weblog</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 21:30:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/24/ny-magazine-married-men-on-the-down-low/#comment-435495</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jul 2007 16:34:23 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/24/ny-magazine-married-men-on-the-down-low/#comment-435495</guid>
					<description>River, same &quot;package deal&quot; rule in my marriage.  We play together or not at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>River, same &#8220;package deal&#8221; rule in my marriage.  We play together or not at all.
</p>
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		<title>by: Miller</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/24/ny-magazine-married-men-on-the-down-low/#comment-435491</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jul 2007 16:13:38 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/24/ny-magazine-married-men-on-the-down-low/#comment-435491</guid>
					<description>The more anti-female bigotry becomes extreme and glorified by males, the more I believe they just want to fuck the hell out of each other.  Honestly, their libido is high-octane and they are highly sensitive to visual stimuli so I think their sexuality is most &quot;practical&quot; (see: prison).

I once interviewed an Indian man, a trucker, for an HIV/AIDS research project and he casually told me about having sex with other male truckers because they're available, horny, and know what males like.  Mind you, this man was ultra-conservative (Women, thou art evil!) and yet when discussing these homosexual acts he spoke of it matter-of-factly.  Of course, in his mind he was not gay--at all (He was homophobic, of course).  Since then, I just assume all, if not most, males are bisexual.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The more anti-female bigotry becomes extreme and glorified by males, the more I believe they just want to fuck the hell out of each other.  Honestly, their libido is high-octane and they are highly sensitive to visual stimuli so I think their sexuality is most &#8220;practical&#8221; (see: prison).</p>
	<p>I once interviewed an Indian man, a trucker, for an HIV/AIDS research project and he casually told me about having sex with other male truckers because they&#8217;re available, horny, and know what males like.  Mind you, this man was ultra-conservative (Women, thou art evil!) and yet when discussing these homosexual acts he spoke of it matter-of-factly.  Of course, in his mind he was not gay&#8211;at all (He was homophobic, of course).  Since then, I just assume all, if not most, males are bisexual.
</p>
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		<title>by: raging red, Duchess of Refrigerated Cookie Dough</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/24/ny-magazine-married-men-on-the-down-low/#comment-435463</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:12:55 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/24/ny-magazine-married-men-on-the-down-low/#comment-435463</guid>
					<description>Oh, but I wouldn't say that &quot;this behavior stems more from misogyny than from a desire to stay closeted.&quot; I'd say that the desire stay closeted stems from misogyny, which is part of what Pam was saying, I thought.  The desire to stay closeted doesn't come from a belief that being gay is evil or wrong or immoral, it comes from an unwillingness to give up one's privilege as a straight (and in the case of William and the guy I know, white) male.  Being on the &quot;down low&quot; allows them to keep their privilege and have all the hot gay sex they want to have.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oh, but I wouldn&#8217;t say that &#8220;this behavior stems more from misogyny than from a desire to stay closeted.&#8221; I&#8217;d say that the desire stay closeted stems from misogyny, which is part of what Pam was saying, I thought.  The desire to stay closeted doesn&#8217;t come from a belief that being gay is evil or wrong or immoral, it comes from an unwillingness to give up one&#8217;s privilege as a straight (and in the case of William and the guy I know, white) male.  Being on the &#8220;down low&#8221; allows them to keep their privilege and have all the hot gay sex they want to have.
</p>
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		<title>by: raging red, Duchess of Refrigerated Cookie Dough</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/24/ny-magazine-married-men-on-the-down-low/#comment-435457</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:02:52 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/24/ny-magazine-married-men-on-the-down-low/#comment-435457</guid>
					<description>Reading all of this reminds me so much of a guy I know who is about to get married.  I'll bet he ends up in exactly the same situation as &quot;William.&quot;  He's not judgmental about other people's sexuality, but I'm fairly certain he's gay and just won't admit it.  Before becoming engaged, he did that whole overly aggressive heterosexuality thing -- bragging about how many women he's fucked, like he has something to prove.  I do think that his &quot;desire for all the social trappings and approval afforded to him via his relationship to his [soon-to-be] wife is something he must cling to.&quot;  Oh, and as per Daniel Turner's comment, he's a huge misogynist asshole.  He treats women like shit, and I'm sure his wife will be no exception.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Reading all of this reminds me so much of a guy I know who is about to get married.  I&#8217;ll bet he ends up in exactly the same situation as &#8220;William.&#8221;  He&#8217;s not judgmental about other people&#8217;s sexuality, but I&#8217;m fairly certain he&#8217;s gay and just won&#8217;t admit it.  Before becoming engaged, he did that whole overly aggressive heterosexuality thing &#8212; bragging about how many women he&#8217;s fucked, like he has something to prove.  I do think that his &#8220;desire for all the social trappings and approval afforded to him via his relationship to his [soon-to-be] wife is something he must cling to.&#8221;  Oh, and as per Daniel Turner&#8217;s comment, he&#8217;s a huge misogynist asshole.  He treats women like shit, and I&#8217;m sure his wife will be no exception.
</p>
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		<title>by: figleaf</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/24/ny-magazine-married-men-on-the-down-low/#comment-435452</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:36:31 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/24/ny-magazine-married-men-on-the-down-low/#comment-435452</guid>
					<description>&quot;Fourth, that masquerading as heterosexual reinforces heterosexism as a societal norm.&quot;

Also trying to live a lie like that has to increase temptation to exaggerate nominally &quot;heterosexual&quot; characteristics and express greater intolerance in hopes of passing.  Also a temptation to adopt &quot;for procreation only&quot; arguments as a cover for non-preference distaste with one's spouses.

And it has to increase that temptation even if you're mask has a well-meaning &quot;some of my best friends are gay&quot; veneer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Fourth, that masquerading as heterosexual reinforces heterosexism as a societal norm.&#8221;</p>
	<p>Also trying to live a lie like that has to increase temptation to exaggerate nominally &#8220;heterosexual&#8221; characteristics and express greater intolerance in hopes of passing.  Also a temptation to adopt &#8220;for procreation only&#8221; arguments as a cover for non-preference distaste with one&#8217;s spouses.</p>
	<p>And it has to increase that temptation even if you&#8217;re mask has a well-meaning &#8220;some of my best friends are gay&#8221; veneer.
</p>
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		<title>by: Daniel Turner, Prince of Perfectly Cooked Eggs</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/24/ny-magazine-married-men-on-the-down-low/#comment-435447</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:30:14 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/24/ny-magazine-married-men-on-the-down-low/#comment-435447</guid>
					<description>I think this behavior stems more from misogyny than from a desire to stay closeted, whether that's right or wrong given the conditions faced by homosexuals.  The lack of basic respect for one's wife necessary to perpetrate this serious fraud on her stems from a view that women are disposable, and that their decision making must be subordinate to that of the husband's.  Their secrecy is merely part of this action, not necessarily a desire to be closeted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think this behavior stems more from misogyny than from a desire to stay closeted, whether that&#8217;s right or wrong given the conditions faced by homosexuals.  The lack of basic respect for one&#8217;s wife necessary to perpetrate this serious fraud on her stems from a view that women are disposable, and that their decision making must be subordinate to that of the husband&#8217;s.  Their secrecy is merely part of this action, not necessarily a desire to be closeted.
</p>
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		<title>by: Louise, Grand Poohbahness of Mac N Cheez</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/24/ny-magazine-married-men-on-the-down-low/#comment-435434</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:55:49 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/24/ny-magazine-married-men-on-the-down-low/#comment-435434</guid>
					<description>River, IMO Christine is lucky to have a friend like YOU.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>River, IMO Christine is lucky to have a friend like YOU.
</p>
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		<title>by: River</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/24/ny-magazine-married-men-on-the-down-low/#comment-435431</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:49:19 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/24/ny-magazine-married-men-on-the-down-low/#comment-435431</guid>
					<description>&lt;b&gt;Matthew, Patron Saint of Affogato&lt;/b&gt;: Exactly.

My husband and I have a somewhat open marriage. We play as a couple with others, or don't play with others at all. We agreed on this over four years ago now, quite a few months before we got married. Both of us have come from polyamorous situations, both good ones and bad ones, and we've seen too many breakups among poly friends of ours to not be super-cautious. So we instituted the &quot;play only as a couple&quot; rule and have concentrated almost exclusively on building our relationship as a couple. Result: a very stable marriage and a very rare bit of extramarital fun, as a couple. It's all honest and aboveboard.

If he wanted to have sex with men, I wouldn't stop him, I'd just insist on condoms all 'round, the same as we insist on when we play with others. (Accidental pregnancy is not an issue here. He long since had a vasectomy and I am in full-blown menopause. Condoms are for safer sex for us, not for pregnancy prevention.) And he wouldn't object, because he abides by safer sex guidelines by choice, as do I, except with each other. Any possible fluid bonding outside that would come only after an extended relationship had developed, and only under a condom compact.

But as to the woman who was described as very bitter about her gay ex-husband: I could have turned out very bitter indeed about my transgender ex-husband, and for a little while, less than a year, I was. But I chose not to be bitter, and to remain friends with Christine, who had been my friend before I married her and who has remained my friend to this day, 22 years later. She's a remarkable (and drop dead gorgeous) woman just entering her 50s, and I feel lucky to have a friend like her. Someone's sexual or gender orientation is not a choice, but how one responds to one's spouse or former spouse's sexual or gender orientation IS a choice. I choose to be friends with my trans ex-spouse, because she is one of the world's coolest people (IMO), and I think she feels the same about me. She asked a total of two people to be her support people for her SRS, her mother and me. I was honored, and of course I went, though it was out of state. If she ever does go on a talk show to promote her autobiography, something that she's discussed, she wants me to go with her, and I'll do it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><b>Matthew, Patron Saint of Affogato</b>: Exactly.</p>
	<p>My husband and I have a somewhat open marriage. We play as a couple with others, or don&#8217;t play with others at all. We agreed on this over four years ago now, quite a few months before we got married. Both of us have come from polyamorous situations, both good ones and bad ones, and we&#8217;ve seen too many breakups among poly friends of ours to not be super-cautious. So we instituted the &#8220;play only as a couple&#8221; rule and have concentrated almost exclusively on building our relationship as a couple. Result: a very stable marriage and a very rare bit of extramarital fun, as a couple. It&#8217;s all honest and aboveboard.</p>
	<p>If he wanted to have sex with men, I wouldn&#8217;t stop him, I&#8217;d just insist on condoms all &#8217;round, the same as we insist on when we play with others. (Accidental pregnancy is not an issue here. He long since had a vasectomy and I am in full-blown menopause. Condoms are for safer sex for us, not for pregnancy prevention.) And he wouldn&#8217;t object, because he abides by safer sex guidelines by choice, as do I, except with each other. Any possible fluid bonding outside that would come only after an extended relationship had developed, and only under a condom compact.</p>
	<p>But as to the woman who was described as very bitter about her gay ex-husband: I could have turned out very bitter indeed about my transgender ex-husband, and for a little while, less than a year, I was. But I chose not to be bitter, and to remain friends with Christine, who had been my friend before I married her and who has remained my friend to this day, 22 years later. She&#8217;s a remarkable (and drop dead gorgeous) woman just entering her 50s, and I feel lucky to have a friend like her. Someone&#8217;s sexual or gender orientation is not a choice, but how one responds to one&#8217;s spouse or former spouse&#8217;s sexual or gender orientation IS a choice. I choose to be friends with my trans ex-spouse, because she is one of the world&#8217;s coolest people (IMO), and I think she feels the same about me. She asked a total of two people to be her support people for her SRS, her mother and me. I was honored, and of course I went, though it was out of state. If she ever does go on a talk show to promote her autobiography, something that she&#8217;s discussed, she wants me to go with her, and I&#8217;ll do it.
</p>
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		<title>by: pablo</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/24/ny-magazine-married-men-on-the-down-low/#comment-435416</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:18:54 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/24/ny-magazine-married-men-on-the-down-low/#comment-435416</guid>
					<description>I've banged a lot of them.  And half the gay guys i know are divorced with kids.  Some are selfishly trying to have the best of both worlds, but some really are in denial until late and by then they're married with kids.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;ve banged a lot of them.  And half the gay guys i know are divorced with kids.  Some are selfishly trying to have the best of both worlds, but some really are in denial until late and by then they&#8217;re married with kids.
</p>
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		<title>by: Our Lady of Disgrace</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/24/ny-magazine-married-men-on-the-down-low/#comment-435405</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:47:55 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/07/24/ny-magazine-married-men-on-the-down-low/#comment-435405</guid>
					<description>@ mpowell--

We're not talking about fifty years ago, though, are we?

There are certain times when staying in the closet can be justified. For example, a gay teenager living in a fundamentalist or very conservative/homophobic home where he/she could be in real physical danger should probably stay in the closet while in that situation. That's not what we are talking about with the guy in this article. It seems to me that his reasons for not coming out have mostly to do with enjoying his privileged status as a straight man.

As for career ambitions that might be affected, in his particular case he's living in NYC, a pretty tolerant part of the country towards gay folks, and I'd be willing to bet that if he's working in finance and with a large firm that like most Fortune 500 companies, the firm has a non-discrimination policy in regards to sexual orientation. So I call bullshit on that. But okay, let's assume that wasn't the situation, and that his career could be negatively impacted. Yeah, that sucks, but the only way that we as a society are going to move towards being more accepting is to have more gay people come out of the closet to their families and friends. Once people know someone who is gay it's a lot harder to demonize gays as a group.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@ mpowell&#8211;</p>
	<p>We&#8217;re not talking about fifty years ago, though, are we?</p>
	<p>There are certain times when staying in the closet can be justified. For example, a gay teenager living in a fundamentalist or very conservative/homophobic home where he/she could be in real physical danger should probably stay in the closet while in that situation. That&#8217;s not what we are talking about with the guy in this article. It seems to me that his reasons for not coming out have mostly to do with enjoying his privileged status as a straight man.</p>
	<p>As for career ambitions that might be affected, in his particular case he&#8217;s living in NYC, a pretty tolerant part of the country towards gay folks, and I&#8217;d be willing to bet that if he&#8217;s working in finance and with a large firm that like most Fortune 500 companies, the firm has a non-discrimination policy in regards to sexual orientation. So I call bullshit on that. But okay, let&#8217;s assume that wasn&#8217;t the situation, and that his career could be negatively impacted. Yeah, that sucks, but the only way that we as a society are going to move towards being more accepting is to have more gay people come out of the closet to their families and friends. Once people know someone who is gay it&#8217;s a lot harder to demonize gays as a group.
</p>
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